Sarah Fair 0:00
But I was in a really victimy place for a while, I think, just to kind of like, grieve that. And then eventually I was kind of like, okay, no girl like, you had a part in this. You played a really big part in this. Like, you're an adult, you are equally responsible for the outcomes of shit, like, honestly, the disillusion of all of that was really when I was like, I need to, like, really face the shadow shit that I have going on, or I'm gonna just, like, be hurtful to people in my life, and I'm gonna destroy my life and my relationships, and I can't do that.
Josh Lavine 0:30
Welcome to another episode of what it's like to be you. I'm Josh Lavine, your host, and on this show, I interview accurately typed guests about their experience as their Enneagram type Today, my guest is Sarah fair, who is a self pro social, six, wing, 7 693, tri fix and her nine fixes, nine with eight. Wing, which we explore because it's sort of interesting how it provides a blank or Canvas than nine. Wing, one to her six. Wing, seven, core as a kind of background. This was a really good and vulnerable conversation that explored how Sarah's mental energy kind of takes her over, or creates a kind of mental frenzy, and the function that serves to create to disarm people, to create playfulness and to pave the way for a deeper social connection, but that can also inhibit the soul to soul contact that she's trying to achieve. We also talk about her as a musician. Music is really important to her, and how she accesses that inner place in her, that kind of sacred inner place where music comes from, and also the place where, if she were to connect with someone, soul to soul, where she would be connecting from, and how that works for her as a mental type. In the second part of the conversation, we go deep into what causes six to unconsciously default to a kind of victim mentality, and something I've been really curious about for a while, and I think we got to a really good answer here, exploring Sarah's past relationships, and also how she orients to kind of wanting a certain kind of protective function to come in and help absolve her of a certain responsibility, and the journey she's taken in her life to start taking more responsibility for herself, which is a journey that all sixes have to take, the journey towards making my own choices, making decisions on behalf of myself, and taking ownership over them, as opposed to kind of following some map or recipe that I've ingested from the outside world. It's also really cool to see Sarah have a real time insight about some of the underlying motivations for her self growth project, which I will leave as a surprise as you watch the interview. So really good stuff here about core six, wing seven, and I would like to plug before we get to the interview, The Enneagram School. If you're curious about the Enneagram or type six, or anything, we talk about this episode and you'd like to learn more, then you can go to the Enneagram school.com and check out our free content on the website. We have a lot more interviews just like this also, and we have an intro course that you can check out where we actually just lay it all out. What is the Enneagram? What are all the intro concepts, and what is this thing? So all that can be found at the Enneagram school.com and the other thing I want to plug is Sarah herself. Sarah is a musician and a singer songwriter, and you can find her music and her musical projects in the show notes. There'll be links in the show notes. Okay? Without further ado, I'm very excited for you to learn from Sarah. So I thought we'd start by me reading a couple of the things that you of the bullet points that you sent, okay, and zooming out from that to notice a kind of six pattern. And actually, I'll just the punchline is the sixth pattern of internal contradictions. Oh God, so many living in internal contradictions as a way of being. And in the many bullet points, over probably 20 bullet points that you sent me as potential topics, here are a couple so you said in your words, my super happy double sided coin from hell, fear of being too much, slash fear of being not enough, or a fear of not being enough, afraid that if I swing too far in either direction, I'll alienate everyone in my life. So that was bullet point one. Number two, authority issues, so loving and hating authority. Three, the desire for constant transformation and exploration, versus the fear of transforming in a way that will alienate my partner, friends, people I love, for just two more, the tension between the desire to merge completely with someone and be completely known, slash know them completely, and the desire to retain some level of mystery So as not to become boring. And then five disappointment when someone doesn't match my energy, slash disappointment in myself when I can't match someone else's energy because I burnt myself out. So we could go into any one of those, and I think each any one of those would be really interesting topic for exploration, but I was kind of just wanted to point out the overarching pattern of the presentation of these either ors, or this the spectra that you live, or you ping pong between Yeah, and how that and how that is for you as an experience. Oh, it's
Sarah Fair 4:50
a lot. I feel like there's kind of a constant tension internally that's created by that. And then I think externally as well. I think the more. You get to know me, the more you realize there's all this, like just shit that's in there. Can I can I say, Yeah, okay, great, thank God, because I still wear like a trucker. Okay, so anyway, what am I even talking about, oh my god, what? No. Okay, so, yeah, basically, the more you get to know me, the more you get to know that I'm just like a fucking mess, and there's just all this, like tension all the time, which I think, I think I'm like, a difficult, a difficult, a difficult person to know intimately because of that, because it's like, it draws people in, but then it's like, welcome to the hellscape. Like, okay, so,
Josh Lavine 5:51
well, okay, even just right there. What just that whole thing that just happened is like, yeah, that's like, Okay, six, wing seven and nine, wing eight, secondary. It feels like to me, because it's like the electricity and the, you know, the buzzing energy of six and of the six seven area, yeah, but then it's that kind of like allowing myself to be, however I am nine wing eight area, you know,
Sarah Fair 6:16
I mean, that's taken, it's taken some time to kind of get to that. Okay, spent a lot of time in my life. I've been in therapy for like, 10 years, and I think that's helped a lot, because I spent a lot of time not being okay with just being the way that I am. And a lot of that came down to, like, really fearing being too much for a long time, and then eventually just being like, well, I can only really be myself. Like, if I'm not, I'm just gonna, you know, you don't feel alive. Like I had become so disconnected from myself, I guess, that I had to spend a long time kind of trying to find that again. But that's something that I still struggle with a lot. At times. It just kind of depends more six, nine shit, yeah, but actually I want, I want
Josh Lavine 7:08
to amend something I just said. It's the nine wing. Eight area is not necessarily allowing yourself to be however you are, but with the eight wing, there is a certain self permission that it's more so than I would say nine with a one wing, right? Yeah,
Sarah Fair 7:20
yeah. There's not as much of like a morality, I guess
Josh Lavine 7:23
that's, yeah, zipped up, you know, kind of, I
Sarah Fair 7:27
can't zip it up. I've tried. It's like, it's just there, it's just all hanging out, God, God. And that can be a lot. So, yeah, this might, I
Josh Lavine 7:40
don't know if this is too broad of a question, but you so you said you've been in therapy for a long time and have been working on, what have you What have you been working on in therapy? Oh,
Sarah Fair 7:49
God, um, a lot of things. So it's been a lot of different things for a long time. But I feel like, um, there was actually a lot of stuff that ended up coming back to so I got into the Enneagram maybe, like, I don't even know, times a flat circle, maybe, like, four years ago or so, but we were working on stuff that has then become meaningful to me in terms of, like, thinking about it in an Enneagram lens. We were doing stuff with that, like, when I was, like, in college, and stuff like, years and years ago. So we worked a lot on, I guess, just getting in touch with my own identity, like my own wants and needs, and, you know, stuff that ended up being kind of like, I feel like stuff that, as a Bermuda you kind of have to, like, work on, not just reflecting back what everybody wants to see. And then I also, like, I found out that I was, I'm autistic when I was 22 so, like, a lot of that ended up being like, Okay, well, if I'm just masking all the time and just showing people what they want to see, then you know, I'm not really honoring my own experience or my own inner, you know, world. So it's been a lot of that kind of stuff. And then, you know, stuff with family bullshit, like body image issues, and being worried a lot that about how I show up in relationship with other people, and being worried that if I'm not like delivering or something, that I'm not gonna like provide value to people anymore, just like that kind of stuff. I mean, there's been a lot. It's been 10 years. There's been a lot of difference,
Josh Lavine 9:26
yeah, broad question, yeah, sorry,
Sarah Fair 9:28
I don't know. I mean, there's, there's, it's been a lot, but it's been, it's been good. Also, like, I had to really learn how to not, like, I had this thing going on for a long time where I would get so, like, almost, like, enmeshed in relationships that whenever would end, I was like, What the fuck do I do now? Like, what do I, you know, and we were like, well, maybe that's because I have, like, divorced parents, a divorce, and I was four, so I don't know how to, you know, all this shit. There's just, like, a we've been doing a lot, but then a lot of that has kind of also popped up. Um. Um, and been helpful for me, as I've, like, learned about typology and that kind of stuff, yeah,
Josh Lavine 10:05
yeah, yeah. I can't think of a better way to ask this question. Go for it, just so this is how it's going to be any so, um, because they're because there's so much content pouring out of you. Yeah, there's, you're such a fountain, and it's insightful and it's interesting, but I wonder what's at the core of it, like, what's at the center of you in the sense of, like, what's really important to you, maybe even just taking kind of right now in your life, what's,
Sarah Fair 10:38
yeah, there's a lot, there's a lot, and that's actually, that's an interesting question, because, and I'm gonna find my way back to that, and if I don't, please get me Okay, yeah, but it was interesting. So I was watching you just, like, process and focus down and find, like, the core of what you were trying to ask. And I was sitting there, and I was thinking about, like, you're really okay with, like, just quiet. And that's I feel like that's something that I need to, like cultivate in my life, and I've tried, and I have to, like, consciously remind myself of because I'll just, like, talk until I find it and Okay, which is, like, a lot, and and like, um. But then I feel like, if there's not another person on the other end of it, I don't know that I've found it, because I'll just keep going like, I'll just like, and I'm not even like, I don't know, okay, see, I'm like, not even getting anywhere with this. But do you know what I'm saying? Like, it was just interesting to
Josh Lavine 11:36
watch. I was like, I do really well. Is it happening right now? I mean, in the sense of, you're kind of speaking your way into a point of
Sarah Fair 11:42
So, because I'm not answering your question at all, I guess. So I don't know. I mean, I feel like it's really touch grounds a lot of times.
Josh Lavine 11:52
Yes, let's, let's stay with that for a second, because I think that'll, I mean, let's, it'll get us back to the original question. So, yeah, what's hard about touching ground.
Sarah Fair 12:01
Um, so I just, it's like things go so quickly in my brain. It's like my mouth or my things are happening so quickly that it's like, I can't, I don't have, like, the processing speed to, like, actually sift through everything that's going on in my brain in real time, or something like that. Um, but like, right now I was going somewhere with that, but I lost it. It's gone. It's gone to the void. It'll come back at like, three in the morning. Um, yeah. So I I need a lot of and I kind of hate that I need this, because I kind of feel like it like burdens other people, but it's like, a lot of times, like, I need somebody else to be like, All right, let's, like, reel it in. Like, where are you? Because it doesn't it's not just like an in conversation thing. It can manifest in other facets of my life too, right? So, like, I'm a musician and I perform, and I am like a singer songwriter, and that's like, that's what I do, and that's what I've always wanted to do. But I will just, and that's just fucking insane, because that's like, so core to my identity. But I'll just, like, forget about it for like, days. And I have to, like, something has to bring me back to that shit, because I will just go off on, like, I'm reading this book now and I'm doing this thing, and, oh, my God, that you know, the world is on fire, and now I gotta, oh my God, and I'm gonna hang out with my friends, and we're gonna have so much fun. And then we've got this thing going on. And now there's this going on in my relationship, and now we get and, like, a lot of the stuff I've done in therapy is like, trying to, like, my therapist. Her name's Christina. She'll be like, Sarah. I'm like, Christina. Like, Sarah, I need you to, like, she used to tell me to, like, go and just, like, put my hands in the dirt. And this was when I was in college. Yeah, I'm gonna go put my I'm gonna go play in the fucking dirt. Christina, you're right. I didn't say that to her, but I was like, Yeah, okay. She was like, because I there's just so much, like, like, all the time, right? Like, I'm fucking crazy. But she was like, you need to, like, do some breathing. You need to, like, ground yourself. And then eventually, like one day, I was like, All right, I'm just gonna go put my fucking hands in the dirt. What? In the dirt, whatever. And it was such a weird thing. And that was so like, I'm pretty disconnected from my body, so that, like, shocked me into my body enough that I was like, damn, I can, like, chill for a second. This is not answering your question at all. I'm so sorry. Like, well, it's gonna
Josh Lavine 14:19
get there though. I'm just pressing, I have faith that it will get there.
Sarah Fair 14:23
It fucking might. It might take us a while, but no, I mean, I feel like,
Josh Lavine 14:31
well, so just Okay, real quick. So your therapist recommended she noticed how.
Sarah Fair 14:39
You know, high frequency. Oh, you can't miss it. That's true. This is medicated. This is with Concerta, okay,
Josh Lavine 14:47
okay. Like, okay, wait, this happens to be the six all time. Like, six energy is, like, it's so disarming, and it's so funny, right? And it kind of gets it gets me. Kind of, you know,
Sarah Fair 15:01
come with me. It makes
Josh Lavine 15:02
me laugh. It makes me laugh. Yeah, yeah. But also it has that effect, right? This is, this is part of how six impacts other people, is whip they whip up this, this sort of a mental humor frenzy, and now we're all ping ponging, and that's where
Sarah Fair 15:18
the juice is. That's like, where the good shit is. I'm like, come with like, let's go on this little like, and then let's just, like, live in this little vibe. Like, this is so fun. Like this is so good. This is the good shit. Yeah, and then, but,
Josh Lavine 15:29
but it's also, that's the stuff sustainable. Um, well, I guess it's, it's, it's great as a mode of being, as a sort of dimension to access, but, but what I'm hearing from you is that it becomes kind of your default, and it takes you away from the things that are more important to you, like remembering yourself as a musician, for example, yeah,
Sarah Fair 15:49
yeah, it can be, well, that's kind of one of the things with I think so. So I write songs, and I think that a lot of my music can sound kind of like pseudo nine ish in some way, because I feel like, because, like, I play the piano and then singing and having an instrument and stuff that's so physical, I think that brings me into my body a little bit more. So it's kind of like I feel like when I'm writing, and this is not something that I thought of before. So thank you for pulling this out of my hellscape. But I feel like I, I It's like, through writing that kind of gets down to the core, under all the Sparky, like, bullshit. Yeah, yeah. Here's the actual feeling without because I have this thing where, like, a lot of times I try to, like, intellectualize my feelings, and so I'll be, like, Googling, like, a really stupid shit, like, is it okay to feel like that? And it's like, okay that just as your feelings, like, chill. But then with writing, it's like, that's just allowing you to just, you're just letting it be. You don't have to analyze it. It doesn't have to mean anything. You don't have to, like, look for the fucking what does this mean for, like, my relationship? What does this mean? Do the people in my life secretly fucking hate me? Like, I don't know, but, like, just Okay, what if we just write down those feelings? What if we just put that into a song or something, and then it's putting that energy into something that's other than, like, it's just like, channeling it a little bit more and and so it's not just like, TV static or something, you know? I mean, yeah,
Josh Lavine 17:23
TV static is a great metaphor, I think, yeah, you said that this mental energy, this kind of associative, kind of fun, Sparky fireworks. Mental fireworks energy is where the juice is. That was your phrase. Yes, what is it? What's juicy about that? Well, it's
Sarah Fair 17:41
not, it's not all the juice. I think there's juice. There can be juice in the body stuff, but that's a different thing. But I don't know. I just really like, like stimulation. Like, very like stimulation seeking. So like, I feel like, I just want to, like, live in that space where, like, if you're really like, this isn't going to be very articulate, but like, if you really are just, like, pinging back and forth with somebody, and that's really, really good, and like, there's kind of like that, like, current that's created there, I can just, like, live in that, and I don't want to not live in it. And then whenever that's gone, then I'm just like, you have, like, the dopamine crash, or whatever, of like, well, I just got this, like, really good hit of just, like, this stimulation. And, like, we were just, like, really sharing these, like, you know, we had this, like, back and forth going on, and that was really great. Now I'm really excited. Now I'm all up here, and now it's like, fuck, you know, it's like, I just want to live in that, like, juice all the time, because I feel like that's, that's my, I don't know if that's where, like, what my ego wants to get a hold of all the time, but it's not really good for me, or what, um, but that's like, I feel like that can be, like, transformative, in a sense, because then you're getting all this new, like, energy and this new juice, and Then they're getting it, and it's just good. I just like it, yeah?
Josh Lavine 19:03
I mean, what's clear is that you're like, you're feeding on it, you know, like you you want, you want to, you want that, you know, yeah, I guess, I guess, my question is, why is that so sacred?
Sarah Fair 19:24
That's a good question. I don't know why, um, why is that so sacred? I think maybe as like a means of connection with another person. I think that's, that's the first thing that's kind of coming to my mind, is resonant for me, but maybe that's, I'm sure that's not the full thing, but I don't, I don't really sure, like, why at the core of it, or I'm not sure right now, that's not something I've really thought about. I think I've been more i. Seeking it, rather than, I don't know, it just feels good. Yeah, yeah. Feels okay. It feels good. It's like there's an electricity there that I think it's like, I there's like, an aliveness to that. And it's like, I want to, like, just live on that I don't know. Like, I've never done, okay, this didn't sound weird. I've never done cocaine, right? Like, I don't do, don't do drugs kids, but like, or do them Whatever. Do what you want, but like, You're adults, or you're not ask your parents, I don't fucking know. Like, sorry.
Josh Lavine 20:41
So funny. It's like, it's like, it's
Sarah Fair 20:43
like, some comment, she's telling people to do drugs. No, it's,
Josh Lavine 20:47
I'm just watching you, like, ping pong inside yourself. Like you say, you say one sentence, and then it's as if you imagine how it's landing. And then, or, like, but also, but don't think I said this, and then the meta,
Sarah Fair 20:59
the meta is always going okay. Like it's always going no, but I feel like it's almost like a there's like a stimulant effect to it, right? Like, it's almost like people who are, like, really addicted to stimulants or whatever, they're just like, Okay, I snorted my Coke, and now I don't feel good anymore because it wore off. So I need to get more coke. And I'm like, sometimes that's how I feel about like, like, these kind of, like, with energy thing, yeah, but like, but then not everybody's, like, going there with me. So then I get really bored, and I'm like, now I'm just like, at somebody's fucking house. And this is, like, we're not, this is weird, like we're just like, watching, like, fucking great British fuck. I don't know. We're watching, like, Naked and Afraid or something. And now I'm like, why? Like, can we, like, talk about something? Can we, like, what are we doing? I don't know. So, yeah, I don't know how I got to Naked and Afraid, but Well, here I am. Let's
Josh Lavine 22:02
see back to this question of what's really important to you. Part, this is, this is one, oh, this is
Sarah Fair 22:08
what's really important to me. Yeah, I want to, like, I want to, okay, I'm going to get really, like, sincere, to the point that it's going to be like, cringe. But I want this is, like, something I was talking to my partner about the other day, like, and I know this is, like, really intense, but it's like, I want to connect with the people in my life, and I don't want it to just be like, I don't like small talk. And this is, like, kind of been an issue in my life, because, like, you have to do small talk or else that's fucking weird. Like, it weirds people out. Like, you can't just, like, walk up to people and be like, so like, how are you but, like, how are you, like, how are you like, you nobody wants to, like, go there all the time. But I'm like, I want to fucking go there. Like, tell me about your shit. Like, no, like, I want the like, I want to like, when you connect so much that it's like, you're like, kind of like, this isn't gonna sound so fucking stupid, but like, touching souls, kind of, like your like, essences are just like touching like you are connecting to, like, the purest degree. It's like, I want to get through all the bullshit, like, I don't want to deal with like, the bullshit, like this is stupid shit, but sometimes the stupid shit is fun, like, sometimes I just want to talk about fucking like, watching Love is blind. But I feel like sometimes even then, like you're creating this, like, you can get to the good shit through, like, just playing with stuff and toying with stuff, but it's like, that's the stuff that makes me feel like, really alive, and that's that I feel like really creates, like, these really deep bonds. And I'm like, and sometimes it's people, like, there are people that I had that with, like, in college, where, like, I haven't talked to them since, but I'm still really glad that we connected like that. Like, sometimes you don't connect with people like that for a long time, but it's like, yeah, at least you are. And it's like, I feel like that. Like, when I don't, I feel like this is from like, a Halsey song or something, so I'm gonna this would be fucking annoying, but I feel like, when you have, like, when you have, like, red and blue and those come together, then, like, you can't separate those things and have them be just red and blue anymore, like there's purple. Now, do you know what I mean? And it's like, I like that when, like, you really connect to the point that you're both kind of a little bit different. But that can also be a bad thing. So I learned that in my mid 20s, okay?
Josh Lavine 24:23
I just, I'm laughing, because it's like, you're it's like, oh, man, let me see, let me take a breath for myself. It's like, no, it's, it's okay. It's like, it's like, you, you present this thing that is really sacred to you, this, like, souls touching thing, yeah, and then, and then, as soon as it's out, or at first of all, there's the preamble and the disclaimer before it's out. It's like, this is gonna sound stupid, but let me just say, read the terms and conditions, yeah, and then, and then you present it, and then, and then there's more disclaimers that follow after that. Like, and it's not, doesn't always have to be that way, but, but it's like, mirror.
Sarah Fair 24:59
It's. That way,
Josh Lavine 25:00
yeah, yeah, but it can
Sarah Fair 25:02
be a bad thing too. Like, if you get into a really, like, toxic situation, then somebody can get in there and, like, it changes you, but in a way where you're less open to that kind of stuff. I
Josh Lavine 25:11
want to talk about you wrote a lot in your in the materials you sent me about victim mentality, sabotage and always making yourself the underdog, yeah, and that's a good those are such six themes. First of all, and I was so glad that you just kind of like, called them out. And I yeah, I guess what, yeah. Why do you think that happens? Or how does or what's the mechanism? How does that start happening for you? How does it start happening?
Sarah Fair 25:45
So honestly, I think that it comes from a place of that. I think the thought is, and here's my disclaimer, there might there's probably, like, a lot more nuance to it, but I think that at the core of it. This might be what it is, if I was wrong and if I fucked up, then I'm left to deal with it on my own, like there's not going to be any support there. And so I think that there can be this like, and I don't think it, I don't think it happens entirely like consciously, but it's like, I feel like I'm at a point in my life now where I'm and I still fucking do it, but I call myself out on my shit a lot more than I used to. But there have been some examples where it has been like bad, like, a lot when I was younger, like when I was in my early 20s, to the point where it was like I was like a straight up, like, toxic ass person. There was like I had the breakdown of a relationship that I was in, and it was kind of just like, I think, the perfect storm of things where, like, okay, that's what, like, my my fucking like, Shadow shit came out to play. So it was basically like, not that any of this stuff kind of really matters, but for context. But it was basically like, I was dating this person who my, he were, he was, like, working at this place where all of our friends were. He was kind of like their supervisor. And I had just graduated college, so like, you know, everybody's, like, your social group kind of just like, dissolves a little bit because people move away. So then all my friends were his friends. And then we broke up during COVID, which was already, like, kind of a clusterfuck because you're not around, like, it fucks all that shit up. So then we broke up, I started acting Vulcan crazy, and then it kind of led to, like, our whole friend group, kind of like siding with him, but then so there's that right where I'm, like, he did this to me. This is all him, okay, all of our friends would not have, like, pieced out for me if I wasn't acting fucking crazy. And like, even like, I haven't talked to this person that my ex in like, like four or five years since then, and I was real victim about that for a long time, especially because, like, I had started dating him at a time when, like, my family kind of fell apart, and so I was kind of like, this person abandoned me and then it but I had been like a total menace for like, months and months and months, and I had to, like, I feel like a big moment for me. What
Josh Lavine 28:41
does that mean to be a menace? Or when you say I was acting fucking crazy, what was
Sarah Fair 28:45
it like, crazy? Sick shit? Like, well, just I was not being good. Like, basically, I just said really mean stuff to him about his the girlfriend that the person he was then with, who was somebody that I knew and like that wasn't okay. I just was really all over the place, and I wasn't super respectful of boundaries that he was putting up. And I just kind of, I was just not it was bad, like I was being really, I be
Josh Lavine 29:23
just Reactive Attachment stuff going on.
Sarah Fair 29:26
It was bad. Yeah, it was, it was, like, a really self destructive time, and it was destructive to him, and like, I would have, like, pieced out for my ass too, and he had every right to do that, you know, and but I was in a really victimy place for a while, I think, just to kind of like, grieve that. And then eventually I was kind of like, okay, no girl like you had a part in this. You played a really big part in like, you're an adult. You are, you know, equally responsible for the outcomes of shit like you didn't. You know, I even, like, in our. Relationship, like, I was really difficult, like, kind of, like, I would, like, test him kind of with stuff, like, you know, just what, like, just really unchecked sick shit. Just like, I'm trying to think of specific examples. Oh, God, this is so okay, to be fair, I was like, 20 or 21 like, I was really like,
Josh Lavine 30:22
yeah, I love stories from this time of life, though, because it's so pure. It's not mediated by maturity. You know, you just
Sarah Fair 30:29
no but it was really bad, like, so there was this one friend that he had, and it's crazy that I had this, like, weird jealousy thing, because I actually don't think I'm like, I don't think that I'm like, super, actually, totally wired for monogamy. But I don't think I knew this at that point. That point. But we he had this one friend where I they had had, like, flirtation or whatever, and then I was just like, Okay, well, it's me or her, which was like, totally not. I don't know why I was, like, so fucking hung up on this shit, like I was just not a secure person. And then I knew that he was like, lying to me about stuff that was going on there. And I, like, knew, and I ended up being right about that. But I found that out because I took his phone and went through his shit, and then I like, I think I screenshotted it and, like, sent it to our friends in our like discord to be like, the truth is out. And then he was like, We got to take a break, which is not even how we ended up breaking up, you know. So he was a two with a three wing, and he was like, he just was like, I'm gonna make you whole. And I was like, Okay, well, I kind of had to get there on my own. And I was just like, really, really dependent on him. I was like, he's gonna show me through life and it's gonna be fine. And, like, honestly, the disillusion of all of that was really, when I was like, I need to, like, really face the shadow shit that I have going on, or I'm gonna just, like, be hurtful to people in my life, and I'm gonna destroy my life and my relationships, and I can't do that. Like, yeah,
Josh Lavine 32:01
yeah. So if you Let's see, do you have like, words and specificity around the shadow, stuff that you had to confront?
Sarah Fair 32:17
Yeah, absolutely. So do I have words around the chest? Yeah. I mean, it was
just a lot of selfishness, a lot of selfishness, a lot of attachment, shit, I think, a lot of expectation for other people in my life to kind of handle my emotions, for me, so that I didn't have to a lot of super unchecked reactivity, toward reactivity over my to
Josh Lavine 32:47
like, what was the nature of your reactivity? I guess what I'm hearing is that the you were doing a lot of provoking and being kind of mean and just like, poke, poke, poke,
Sarah Fair 33:01
yeah. And then as soon as there's a reaction being like, how could you do this to me? Like, yeah. And then trying to get my friends to be like, see, this is what's been happening. And but I wasn't, I didn't know. I didn't realize that I was doing this shit, you know? I mean, yes,
Josh Lavine 33:16
but now with some space and some psychological distance and some mature reflection, like, what is it that you were trying to do when you were poking it?
Sarah Fair 33:29
I don't know. I don't know what I thought the goal was. I think I was just kind of like, flailing, yeah, what was the goal? That's a good question. I think, I don't know. I think I was trying to, like, maybe draw him back in somehow. But why I thought that would be the way to do it? I'm not sure.
Josh Lavine 33:56
Yeah, I guess that's why we call it Reactive Attachment, right? It's like, it's provoked to get you to come towards me,
Sarah Fair 34:02
yeah, yeah. I wanted to be like, yeah. I don't know. It was just Yeah, yeah. It was not good. It was not Yeah. And
Josh Lavine 34:12
the coming towards what were you? What were you ultimately wanting? Like, imagine if he came towards you in the way that just totally satisfied you, and we're like, okay, yeah, I What would that have been,
Sarah Fair 34:24
I think, a return to the way that things had been, in a way that where I wouldn't have to actually do any growth on myself. I think I wouldn't have to, like, actually look at myself in any way, and that just wasn't realistic, like that wasn't gonna happen, especially with the way that I was fucking acting like it wasn't that was never gonna happen. I think that I was not willing to modulate in a way that would have been fair to both of us. So yeah, I think that's kind of where I was with it. I
Josh Lavine 34:59
guess I'm kind of. Driving at something, and that feels like a mystery to me, although I have a theory, okay, and I'll do it in a particular way. So when I was 2021, I had a relationship with a Yeah, so college relationship, and I was profoundly, profoundly mentally unhealthy at the time, and this is during the time as a three when I was doing a lot of, like, shady kind of stuff behind the scenes at school, you know, like cheating and academic work things like that. And I had absolutely no self esteem. And so, I mean, I remember just being literally feeling worthless and feeling like I had to hide. And also would cry, this is dark, but, yeah, this is just a time. I would cry for hours in my room, and then I would do that three social three thing of, like, walk out with the smile on, and then everybody I would see it, hey, how's it going? You know, good to see you going to that party night. And so it was that, that that, yeah, that was a really dark time anyway, so, but in a relationship, I was in a relationship at the time that didn't last, but I remember this one incredible moment that was my girlfriend gave me, she made a list of all of the qualities about me that she loved, yeah. And it was like 43 qualities long, right? And I and she, like, read it to me slowly over the phone. Was long distance relationship, and at the end of it, at the end of it, I remember saying, but you didn't say brilliant, and it was so as I think about, as I think about, where I was internally at that moment, I remember thinking, okay, like, what was I trying to get out of her? Just like a complete, total, unconditional mothering love, you know? Oh, yeah, exactly, yeah, that will, like, totally would envelop and see every dimension to me, and especially at that particular time, my brilliance, which I thought was, which I was the most insecure about, right being at school, like doing the shady stuff and stuff like that. And so I wonder if there's an analogy for you, if there's something like that, where something that you were wanting or some insecure thing that you were something specific,
Sarah Fair 37:32
right? So I think that I, I think there, there are probably a few different things, but I think that I wanted, I think I was looking for like unconditional love and being like unconditionally chosen, um, and I think that For me, specifically because of stuff that had gone on, like in childhood, I think that I needed the polarity of being chosen over another person, like so trying to think of, sorry, I'm trying to, like, actually ground into this a little bit and not just flit away. So I think that that was probably a big part of it. I do think that I had put him in a really, like parental position, yeah, like, psychologically, like, to the point where, like, I used to, like, this is so cringe. I used to, like, really, like, just, I ended up just like, talking in this, like, stupid little voice all the time, and, like, it was just really weird. Like, I don't know why, but I would like do that with him. I did it with my my print, my boyfriend before him, too. Um, where I think I would make like, parents out of my and I'm really, like, I really try really hard in my relationship now to, like, not do any of that shit, yeah, not to go into that place. But I think it's like, I feel like it must be some like, I don't know if I was trying to appeal to their like, I'm just a little weak, like, I need you to save me, because you're big, strong man, come save weak little me or something. Do you know what I mean? But then, like, weak little me will then turn around and be like, well, I can take care of myself, and I don't need you to take care of me. And then, but actually, oh, but how could you say I didn't? And it's just like, Bitch, what the like, Bitch, what the like, yeah, no, it's so but it's so insufferable. And, um, yeah, I made it really hard for him.
Josh Lavine 39:51
Do you have words for the specific, like dimension or quality of parenting that you were that you were looking for? Yeah.
Sarah Fair 40:00
What do you mean? Like, do you mean maternal versus paternal or? Yeah,
Josh Lavine 40:05
I'm sort of, I guess I'm sort of fishing for something. I'm just, let's see. I'll just ask. I'm just trying to,
Sarah Fair 40:09
I'm trying to figure out which fish you want so I can
Josh Lavine 40:12
go, Okay, well, yeah, I'm trying not to prompt you with it, see if it comes out organic. I'll, actually, I'll just prompt you with it and see how you react. So what I'm wondering about is, like as a three, I think about three, the sort of the core wound or or the way that threes try to make parents out of their partners, is by, let's see, making them love them unconditionally, let me, let me actually do this in a different way. It's about gays. It's about how you see me. You know. It's about I want, I want to be, I want my the totality my subjective inner experience, to be known and loved and valued. Okay, yeah, and for six what I'm wondering about is, is is there a dimension of it where it's it's more about being, let's see supported, to stand on two feet, or well attuned To at the level of orientation, where it's like, words are so hard here, because it's like, you could very easily say, you could very easily say, I'm looking for unconditional love, but, but there's like, I'm trying to parse out what the difference is between three and six.
Sarah Fair 41:35
So I think there were a few different things. I think one of the things was I wanted to be I wanted to feel protected. Yeah, and then I wanted to feel, what did I want to feel? I think I it's like I needed someone to support me to be able to know that I was correct or okay in being okay with myself. Do you know what I mean? And if they weren't okay with me, or if they didn't think I was lovable, then I wasn't lovable. So I think that was a big part of it.
Josh Lavine 42:16
Oh, I actually just got an idea this goes back to the to the victim mentality thing. Because what I think, in a certain way sixes are avoiding, is taking responsibility for their choices. Yeah, like I choose this, irrespective of any external anchoring. I'm not using some recipe or what someone else tells me to do. Yeah, I choose to. This is my decision. This is what I've come to by my own inner compass, you know, right? And delaying taking responsibility for themselves in this kind of mental alert way where I make my own decisions. They're sort of wanting it to be okay that they're not doing that. Yeah, and they're seeking a certain kind of support from their partners, where their support the partners, either can make decisions for them or provide a certain level of protection, where they can remain in a place of indecisive, not taking responsibility for myself, not, yes, you know what I'm saying,
Sarah Fair 43:24
absolutely. And I was pissed that that was gone. There. I was pissed. Okay, I was pissed. It was like, this visceral, like, I think it came from a place of, like, visceral fear. And then a lot of times fear is covered, is, is, you know, anger is like a just fear with a fake mustache on or something, you know? Yeah, secondary emotion, the fear. And so I was just because it's always the fear, right? Like, it's sick shit. I was just like, Well, fuck now this is gone. Like, I, what am I? What the fuck? And I was really pissed, because I was like, now I have to turn around and, like, look at the void, or, like, look at the abyss, and I have to fucking figure out, how do I actually because the thing is, is that so that x, at that time, I was going through really, really rough stuff, where my there was, like, some legal stuff going on. There was, like, my family was falling apart, and I pretty much moved in with him after knowing him for like a week, because I couldn't go home anymore. Okay, wow, yeah, and I, yeah, it was, there was there was a lot going on. It's really complicated. Like, it's, you know, it ended up actually being fine. Like, my family actually didn't end up falling apart. It kind of did for like, a year, and then everything was fine, yeah, but I, like, couldn't go home. There had been, like, a really bad betrayal from basically, like somebody, from, like, a parental figure in my life. And I, like. Couldn't go home, and it was a male parental figure. So then I was like, so I just moved in with this, like, basically stranger who was just, like, really nice to me. And I think that kind of cushioned me enough that I didn't actually have to, like, I had support at that time from him. So, you know, because, like, I wasn't really speaking that much. There was just a lot. There was a lot going on. There was stuff going on with like, my family. I am a divorced family, so there were things going on with both sides of my family I see So, so I was kind of like, okay, well, this person's gonna help me, like, stand up, basically. And, yeah, I still have, like a social support system, and I still have, you know, people here. And then whenever he was basically, like, we broke up, then a couple of years later, and COVID was happening, and there was like, this big eight or nine month period then when I was just, like, flailing around and was like, I'm just gonna, you know what I was, I was acting like, really unhinged, like I would call him, like, a dozen times leave fucking crazy ass messages. I was also on way too high of a dose of Adderall, like, because I thought it would make me thinner and, like, it made me have, like, no impulse control, which, again, is just me not taking responsibility for my own actions. But, you know, like, so, yeah, I was just acting really, like wild, and I was, like, trying to get his mom on my side, like it was a whole fucking thing, right? Which was, like, stupid, because, why? Like, that's her son. But, like, whatever. So whenever, that's amazing,
Josh Lavine 46:43
too. Just that six trying to find allies, you know, yeah, yeah, right.
Sarah Fair 46:47
Like, and everybody was like, seeing through that shit, because it was really transparent, because I was just like, not okay. Like, I was not like, okay at that time. So then, um, basically, then we there was like, a big, kind of, like, final blowout. And then he, like, blocked me on everything, um, which didn't stop me, because I just, like, sent letters to his house, whatever's fine. And then after that, then, like, right after that, then, like, my cat died, and my step dad's mother died. It was like, boom, boom, boom. Like, all this shit happened, yeah, and I was just like, Fuck, I need to, like, do this for myself. Like, I need to figure out how to put myself back together on my own. And I think that's gonna involve me looking at, like, the ugliness in myself, like and like the parts of me that are really like, because I hated myself. I was hating other people in my life and, like, just, you know, that kind of stuff, and then I didn't handle it well, and it led to, like, I ended up, like, really struggling with, like, binge eating. I gained like, 60 pounds. Like it was, like, all this shit, and it was like I had to learn to, like, get my shit together and figure out how to be that support for myself instead of and it was, like, hard. It was, like, I was, I ended up being, like, really depressed for a while and stuff. But then eventually, like, I started to get out of that hole. But it took a long time, and it, like, really fucking sucked, but, and it freaked me out for a long time, because I was kind of like, well, now I just need to, like, never depend on another human being ever again. And it's like, no bitch, like, there's balance. Like I went, I did the sixth thing, like, I went to the other side, a little bit too hard, that's right. And then I was kind of like, wow, I've really been, like, way overly depending on people in my life, and that puts a really big burden on them. And it, you know, opens me up to, like, the potential for this kind of thing to happen again, yeah, not just the part of me where, if something falls apart, then I just fall apart, like, and that can't happen. So, yeah, but it
Josh Lavine 48:55
sounds like you had to kind of go occupy for a while, the opposite pull, yeah, you had been sort of unconsciously, or consciously, maybe, but like, kind of radically dependent on some kind of, like, protecting absolutely
Sarah Fair 49:09
energy. And I feel like I've still Ping ponged back and forth with that up until probably, like, some point in the summer, I was kind of like, you know what? Like, you can trust yourself. And if like, I would still be kind of like, I can do everything on my own, everybody just kind of like, stay away, like you say, in your lane or whatever. And it was cutting off like aliveness in my life. But then eventually I got to this point where I was like, You know what? Like, no, you can trust yourself that, like you can stand on your like you've rebuilt things. You've rebuilt. Like, well, not rebuilt, but like, you can support yourself by yourself, like, emotionally, without actually sinking to the bottom. And just like, like, you can hit bottom and pop back up without somebody like, pulling you up. And that's so, yeah.
Josh Lavine 49:59
That's a fundamental faith that is sort of lacking the core six pattern, right? It's and so
Sarah Fair 50:04
I feel like that changed everything, like having gotten like, that fear still there, but it doesn't feel as like, it's not visceral, because, like, I know that I and, you know what? I know that there are going to be times in my life where the bottom that I have to hit is a lot lower. You know what I mean? Like, I know that, you know, I haven't had the death of a lot of family members or anything yet, but I know that, like, you know, someday, like, my parents are gonna die, and that's gonna be a huge fucking blow, you know what I mean, but it's like, because I've hit a bottom and found my way up without dragging anybody else down with me, I know that I can do that again, you know, no matter what it ends up being or, you know, yeah, so, yeah, yeah.
Josh Lavine 50:42
I mean, it's, it really is a, I love these stories of hitting a kind of bottom. I love them just because, I mean, I relate in my own way. But the lessons that you learn there are so powerful, and then there's like, kind of redemption story, right? And so, I guess partly, what I'm learning from your experience, is that this the the way that sixes can unconsciously default to a victim mentality where they're like, impressed by the world. Yeah, it's almost like what keeps happening to them. Or I'm gonna put some words to it. You tell me if this feels right, but it's like they're they're unconsciously hoping for that figure that will be a, let's see how to put it, that is just going to take care of everything. That's that's going to make you not have to take responsibility for yourself in this, to not have to be an adult, yeah, yeah. To not like to be online, you know, in your
Sarah Fair 51:41
Yeah, because I fucking don't want Yeah, absolutely. And it's still there. It's absolutely still there for me. And it's something that I think, now that I'm aware of it, and I can see it, it doesn't, you know, set as many little fires in my life as before, or set like I'm acting like it's doing it to me, like, no bitch, you're doing it, like, even that kind of shit, like these little things. But no, I mean, I definitely think that I still will search for, yeah, like, who's gonna come and just take care of all of the shit that I can't for me, so that I can just flit off and just all the time, you know what I mean, right? And then sometimes I'm pissed that that's not there. And it's like, what the fuck that's life you're an adult. Like I had
Josh Lavine 52:29
this weekend. I was a, I was on a hike, and I was, I got to a point in the hike where the trail markers were missing, or at least I couldn't find them, yeah. And I had this one, I have a six fix, and I had this moment where I was like, I was like, these motherfuckers, like, you know, like, and, you know, this, this trail should be better marked, for God's sake. And then I Yeah, and then I thought to myself, Okay, wait, this is, this is a sixth moment. It's like, it's like the expectation that someone has traveled the path before and created markers, yeah, and then the and then the disappointment of when they haven't. That's like, nobody's nobody owes me anything. Nobody owes Oh yeah, there's like, an entitlement
Sarah Fair 53:13
with it. Yes, there definitely is. There definitely is. And that's like, really gross to look at and to really be like, ew, ew. Sarah, like, check your fucking ass. Like, like, you know, it's just, yeah, no, that's definitely a thing, and it even with like, stupid stuff, you know, like, it's like, the equivalent of being like, oh my god, there's like, this movie scene or something where I'm like, or it's like, somebody, it's like, it's like, putting a fucking box down in the middle of the floor, forgetting that it's there, walking out into your living room in the middle of the night to drink some water or something, running into the box. Yeah, who put that there? Who would put that there? You know what? I mean, I do this shit in my own fucking life. Like, you know, how many flat tires I get, how many parking tickets I get, just like, shit like that, where I'm like, okay, like, for example, okay, this is fucking This is stupid. I got a parking ticket. I got two parking tickets on Valentine's Day, right? Which is bummer. Sorry, yeah, okay. I mean, whatever I park, but I was parked in areas where I had parked before, but were technically areas where I should not have been parking, but I parking there for years and never got a ticket. Okay? One was like, there's, there are two different areas, right? And I was like, mad that I got these parking tickets. Well, then you shouldn't have fucking parked there. I'm like, How dare they decide to, like, meet their quota and give me a fucking ticket. Like, you know what I mean? And then I was kind of like, you know, and that's how I was like, I think I was telling my partner that I was like, and they gave me tickets. She was like, Well, maybe you shouldn't have parked there. And I was like, Maybe you shouldn't have
Josh Lavine 54:53
parked there. Like, yeah. Like, yeah.
Sarah Fair 54:59
I'm like, um. Like, what do you mean? And I was kind of like, damn. Like, I'm yeah, you're right. I shouldn't have fucking parked there, you know, my somebody said to me, like, well, aren't you gonna fight it? And I'm like, no, because I fucking parked there. I just shouldn't have done it. Like, fuck.
Josh Lavine 55:13
So this kind of gets to this point about you mentioned outsourcing self pres stuff, and yes, and so, I mean, the Enneagram official typing of you is self, press, social, and I know you've kind of questioned it, but, but this idea of unconscious, so this is what you wrote, unconsciously, energetically seducing and charming people, even in a platonic sense, so that they want to help or guide me. Because deep down, I've always, I always know that I can't find my way on my own, quote, unquote. And so this is yeah. So there's this weird thing of, like,
Yeah, still looking to be taken care of in that way.
Sarah Fair 55:56
And this even in I still do, even in relationships like I yeah, like, like, my girlfriend has to, like, tell me to eat. Or she'll be like, she'll be like, Lay's potato chips are not dinner. I'm like, It's girl dinner. She's like, No, it's not dinner. She's like, you need to like, and she'll be like, she'll tell me, like, Okay, we're gonna make, like, a meal plan, like, we're gonna come up with, like, I need you to write down, like, what do you think we should eat this week? Because otherwise I'll just be like, I don't know. Maybe I'll have a muffin tonight. Or like, like, my mom has her shit together more than, like, any person I've ever known, ever in my life, she's like a self pro social three wing. She's like a 316, or something. Like she has her shit together. And if she wasn't helping drive the boat on my life, I'd be fucked like, I'd be fucked and like, if my co workers didn't like me, I'd be fucked like, if my, you know, if people didn't want to like, and this is one of the things that, like, I've talked about to my therapist a lot, where I'm like, and this is going to sound really shallow, and I'm like, aware of that, so I so there was that point in time where, like, I had been, like, binge eating and stuff, and I gained a lot of weight, and then I was so fucking wigged out about having gained weight, because I'm like, now I'm not going to be like, attractive. People are going to look at me differently, and they're not going to want to, like, they're not going to put up with me, they're not going to help me. They're not going to, you know, want to. And I don't think this was stuff that was super consciously happening, but it was stuff that I kind of, like, pulled out of, you know, me. I was like, if I'm not, like, cute and like, you know, whatever, then like, people aren't going to want me. And like, nobody's going to want gonna want me around, and then I'm gonna, like, fucking starve in the woods by myself because I don't know how to fucking do anything. Like, I don't know how to fucking, like, balance a check. Like, I don't know how to fucking do my taxes. Like, I don't fucking know. So what the hell? Like, need people to do it for me, or else I'm fucked
Josh Lavine 58:00
That's amazing. Yeah. So your your cuteness and presenting your frazzleness or your suffering, whatever is sort of this unconscious mechanism to attract it's yeah, if
Sarah Fair 58:11
I'm funny, I'm like, Oh, I'm so funny. I'm self deprecating. Oh, I'm Oh, if I can, you know what in this? Oh, fuck. You know what this sucks. I just fucking,
Josh Lavine 58:18
oh yeah, hit me. Oh yeah. Oh fuck, I can see on your face. Yeah.
Sarah Fair 58:24
On some level, on some level, and I have thought of this before, but on some level, I feel like my self growth after my was also in service of that, because nobody's gonna want to be around me if I'm a piece of shit, you know what? I mean, yeah, nobody's gonna want to help me. I will lose support if I'm Psycho and I was like, so it's also, you know, because I'll get my little, you know, let me put on my little super ego crown. Oh, look at me. I'm so good. I'm so evolved. Like, no bitch, you're still just trying to, like, soothe the like, oh, but if I so, if I seem like kind of evolved, if I do, you know, but if I'm also funny and I seem like all these things, yeah, and people are gonna want to help me, and then people are gonna like, Oh, that's okay. I'll teach you how to do these things. Oh, I'll just do it for you. Oh, my God, you spend all this money on stupid fucking shit because you forget that. Like, money is a thing that doesn't just exist in the abstract. That's okay. I show you how to do it. I did, and I'm like, oh, so what the fuck happens when I hit 30? You know what I mean? Like, then the eternal woman child is it? This is just the shit that's happening with Ariana Grande. Like, not to bring fucking pop culture into it, but she's like, all of a sudden, she's like, I'm little blonde Ariana Grande, and now I'm just like, little princess Glinda, and now everybody, nobody can talk bad about me, because I, you know, broke up this marriage with this guy, and like, oh, you know, because she hit, like, 30 and now she's like, Well, fuck, what the fuck am I gonna do? Nobody's gonna think I'm cute anymore. Like, I'm 28 and I hit 28 and I was like, Fuck, this shit isn't cute anymore. So then what did I have to do? I had. To get this fucking phone case that has dinosaurs on it. I guess they're T rexes. I've never had a phone case like this. And on some level, I'm like, Look how fun and cool I am with my little phone case. I get phone cases with dinosaurs on it because I'm like, you know, like, yeah, yeah. It's all in service of just, it's so shallow too. It's just all in service of being more attractive to people on sub level, because I am a shallow little bitch, no, but yeah, yeah.
Josh Lavine 1:00:27
But okay, that was pretty kind of a powerful moment, actually, just that, yeah, realization in real time. And I think the essence of it is just the essence of it was that even the ways that you've applied yourself in your journey of personal growth has been in the service of making yourself more attractive to the kind of parenting that you're trying to get. Yeah,
Sarah Fair 1:00:47
or even, like, whenever I do things where it's like, oh, I'm doing these things that are like, I'm helping other people, and I'm gonna go do these things. I'm gonna volunteer. Oh, I'm gonna be really, like, active about or, Oh, I'm gonna, like, educate myself about what's going on politically and stuff like that. And I'm like, okay, but on what level is that so that I'm, like, the type of person that does those kind of things and that's attractive to people? Do you know what I mean? On what level is it actually still shallow? On what level is me trying to acquire depth? Still shallow? Do you know what I mean? Yeah,
Josh Lavine 1:01:15
I Yeah, no, I totally get that. And I have my own version. I mean, that's, I mean, yeah, totally get that. Yeah, let's see. Where do I go with that? I want to make a comment, but then I have another question about it. So I know resale Hudson had this formulation of the the saving grace of each type, which is that as they're descending the levels in their formulation, going from level six to level seven is like clicking into the realm of truly unhealthy, like moving into psychotic, self destructive behavior, yeah. And it's a significant like, chunk into a different yeah level. And their idea of the saving grace is that what is, what is the inherent mechanism within this type that actually prevents them from going there, yeah. So, for example, for three it's like, well, I don't want to be a deceptive, opportunistic cheater, because I will actually do want to be valued. I want to be a valuable person, right? So it serves the ego's needs, but it does prevent you from going down, you know? And actually, actually can even help you lift yourself up from level six to level five and four, and then eventually, the higher you go, the The deeper the fears you have to confront, but the more integrity you recover. And so it feels to me like you kind of just had an authentic realization of something like that, where it was like, Yeah, I'm I'm, the way that I'm applying myself to my personal growth is in service, still, of a six ego, but it's just yeah. It's part of the
Sarah Fair 1:02:41
even when I think I'm transcending the bullshit, yeah, I am really still, it's all motivated by that same, you know, I'm kind of, like, I don't, I don't want to be alienated from people. And I learned that, like, Okay, well, you want to be alienated socially. It's acting like that and alienating everybody in your life. So you've got to, like, get it together, or else nobody's gonna, you know, put up with that shit.
Josh Lavine 1:03:06
How did you know that that was true, that realization,
Sarah Fair 1:03:10
I felt it, yeah, I felt it, yeah. You felt it in your body, yeah, right here, yeah. It's kind of like a lesser version of what I'm about to describe. You ever have where you kind of have you know that something is coming, like bad news or something not bad news, necessarily, I don't know, and then you act, okay, this is so dramatic, but this is the you ever, no, I'm not gonna, okay. You ever have where, you know, in movies where this is so dramatic, okay? But this is just the image that came into my head, okay, okay, you know the, actually, I had two things that came into my head, but we're gonna, I'm gonna go with this first one. First with this first one, first. But so, you know, in movies from like World War two movies, and the wife's at home, she's washing the dishes, or whatever, her husband's off at war, and then she looks out the window, and the fucking car pulls up, and the and the fucking people in the military uniforms get out of the car, and she's like, No, no. And then they come to the door, and then they're like, tell her, and she's like, and you and you can imagine she has this, like, the realization of, like, the Oh, fuck, like that would hit right there, yeah, it's like that, except they're like, open the door, and they're like, it's all six, it always has been. And I'm like, fuck no. Like, you know, or like, The Picture of Dorian Gray, like that concept of, like, where, oh, well, I, you know, it looks all nice on the outside, but if you go upstairs and you actually, like, look at the ugly ass picture, you're, I've never read this book, so this is probably, like, really far off, but I want to, but, and then you go. You see, like, what's actually there? You're like, oh, fuck, oh god. It's like, yeah. So
Josh Lavine 1:05:09
putting this in my own words, I guess what I'm hearing from you is that that insight, which resonated for you at a body level as something true and profound, it came to you through a different center than the mental
Sarah Fair 1:05:22
center. Yeah. Well, you know what's really interesting is like, I've had that happen another time too, which it was actually in relation to that, like, breakup that I told you about, where I had, I had gotten to this point where I was like, I should know better now than to like, still be hung up on this and to still be, like, trying to deconstruct this narrative that I think has been built socially, which is totally true, but whatever. But I was kind of, like, still trying to manage the way I was being seen by people who didn't actually I didn't know them anymore, right? And I was like, so concerned about, like, how I presented to the people that was still friends with this current ex. Because I was like, I want them to be able to report back that I am, like, report back that. I am like, she's great, sir, like, whatever, you know, um, and I was like, I'm not even, that's a really some level, just real quick,
Josh Lavine 1:06:12
just round about, like, uh, attachment from a distance, you know, Oh, yeah.
Sarah Fair 1:06:17
I'm like, always. It was even social media. I was like, Yeah, okay. Because if our friends that are still connected, like I want him to, I want to manage this image of what I think that they have been told but now, but look how rational I am online or whatever. You know what I mean, yeah, just image management bullshit. It's just like, three stuff. There too. Three fix a crazy, neurotic shit, like, Bitch, stop, what the fuck. And I do this shit all the time, like, I'm getting dinner with people that still know him tonight, and I'm like, I'm like, Oh, I'm gonna be so chill. It's gonna be so chill. I'm gonna be the chill. And it's like, Girl, this was like, five years ago, but so I had gotten to this point where it was like, why am I still, like, I should know better now. Why am I still trying to fix this? Why do I still, on some level, hope that someday we can just be friends again? Because I've never anybody that's gone out of my life or whatever, like, even in breakups, like I'm still friends with my other exes, you know what I mean. And I'm kind of like, Why do I have this thing where I need people to still be connected in my life? And so I started writing a song about it, and I ended up with this line that was like, still I cling to the hope of fixing what's been broken because I couldn't fix my broken home. I should know better now. And I was like, oh my god, it's because my fucking parents are divorced. Oh my god. I was like, holy shit. And I had no idea before that it just came out of, like, it wasn't a thought that I had had, but it came out of some area of just, like, truth, and it hit me, like a fucking lightning bolt. I was like, holy shit. And I feel like, after that, I was able to kind of let it go. Oh, wow, yeah, yeah, not totally, but I still, you know, I was like, oh, it's not really about that. It's about, like, this other thing. So, yeah, yeah,
Josh Lavine 1:08:06
I have two more questions for you then, yeah, people come to a close. Okay, so the first one is given this unconscious desire for support and, I don't know, pick your favorite phrase to describe this whole this, like the this, this figure or environment or something that will help you be help you not have to take responsibility for yourself, and the journey that you have to take to actually summon yourself to take responsibility for yourself. Yeah, what's the what motivates you saying to someone, for example, I don't need your support. You know, that whole thing where it's like, I can sit on my own two feet. I'm not that whole showing your independence to like, like peacocking your independence as almost like a reaction against
Sarah Fair 1:09:02
the because then they have authority, and I don't like that,
Josh Lavine 1:09:07
yeah? So there's like, another given them, right? Yes, yeah, and
Sarah Fair 1:09:10
that's I've given them. Well, that was something I've worked on. I'm sorry I totally interrupted you.
Josh Lavine 1:09:14
No, I'm just fascinated by this, by this, because it seems so I don't get how that inner conflict serves the ultimate underlying purpose of six, like for okay, like for example, for three, you know, I, what seems simple to me, or what seems clear to me is that I'm reading what people value and then unconsciously trying to become that, or present myself that in order to earn or win, kind of win their admiring gaze as a as an unconscious pattern, and for six it's like I'm reading what will earn me support and and I'm trying to be the kind of thing, be the kind of person for whom that support, right?
Sarah Fair 1:09:58
You know? Well, I. Think it's because support can be taken away, and that's scary. So it's like this, okay, like, reacting against, like, I think it's like this unconsciously. Like, you realize somebody you've given, like, something I've worked on in therapy is like, I will just give away my power, yeah, like, or whatever. Like, I'll just give it away. I'll just give it I'll give away the she would say, like, stop giving away the keys to, like, your autonomy and stuff. There it is. Yeah, that's good, and I still do it, but it's kind of like, but then it's like, this realization that, Oh, fuck. Like they have, they've become an authority because I've given them that they haven't get. Yeah, they've taken it for themselves. I've given it to them, and then being like, so it's just weird, like, wanting their approval so much, but then realizing that if they don't give that to you, or you don't get their approval, like, that's gonna fucking hurt. So then being like, because then it's like, on some level, like, it's a resource, so, like, it's like, oh fuck. Well, then I don't need it's like, it's like people who are like, like, nobody. I'm saying nobody trusts the government. I don't fucking know where am I going? Sarah, come back. People who are like, we don't trust the government, but then, like, No, you just want to trust this one thing. I'm not going there. We're not going we're not going political. Sarah, come back, okay, um, oh, come back. Okay. Um, that's not what I sound like when I sing. I sound better than that, but
Josh Lavine 1:11:23
maybe we could anchor to the specific moment of again. I know this was a crazy, kind of unhinged moment of your life, but when you you were talking about how in your relationship with your ex, in your early 20s, that you would have said to him, but you would have wanted his his support, and his kind of enveloping, protective kind of being there. And also, at the same time, you would have said, but I don't fuck I can. I can sit on my own two feet to get away. You know that kind of, I don't need
Sarah Fair 1:11:48
you. Yeah, exactly. And it's like, but yes, you do bitch. And it's like, I think it's also this, like, not wanting to need that, because if you need it, then it can be taken away. And then there's that, like, struggle of like, Oh, fuck. But is there
Josh Lavine 1:12:02
also a three fix thing going on, where you're reading, on some level, you're aware that if you're too needy for support, that it will be taken away. And so you're trying to show that you don't need the support as a way actually to get it.
Sarah Fair 1:12:18
Yeah, because people, because then if you look too dependent, then that drives people away, right? Because nobody wants to deal with that, because I, unfortunately, I have a lot of concern about how things look or whatever, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Josh Lavine 1:12:31
Cuz, yeah, that makes sense. There's some image management piece of going on there, and
Sarah Fair 1:12:36
so, but it's this weird, reactive way of like, well, I don't need you like, Yeah, go on now get you know, and it's like, okay, but bitch, yes, you do. Like, that's so transparent. If you didn't need this, you wouldn't be like, like, if, if it's like, okay, if you're not actually worried about what anybody fucking thinks about you, you're not going to be that fucking stressed about what everybody thinks about you. Know what I mean. So, yeah,
Josh Lavine 1:13:03
yeah. Okay, that makes sense. Makes sense. Yeah. Well, why don't we move towards a close? I guess the my kind of as a final reflection, I'm wondering, as you have moved more into trying to take more responsibility for yourself and combat. To use that word, I don't know if that's the right word, but to combat, but to combat the kind of type six pattern, or to work against it, or to arise into yourself in a new way, where you're becoming more of an adult. What's shifting for you and what's what's that process been like?
Sarah Fair 1:13:37
So I think one of the things that I've been trying to work on, or maybe the thing that's been the biggest kind of struggle with it has been having awareness of the things that I want to work on, like, you know, with like the victim mentality and like self sabotage and that kind of stuff. And then still having self compassion when it happens, when I see it pop up and not, you know, not letting it kind of turn into, like an emotional like on trash spiral, because I think it can become that if now I'm choking, oh, my God, if left unchecked. So that's been the thing that's been kind of the hardest. Because I don't know if that's, you know, some super ego bullshit kind of thing where it's, it's resisting the, maybe not impulse, but, you know, tendency to think of myself as bad because that's happened, and just be like, Okay, this is like a thing that I'm working on, and it's just, you know, that's just part of being human. So I think that's, that's something that, you know, I. Because I don't I'm floating off and away again. Yeah, no, I think that's been the thing that's been kind of the hardest, or that I've kind of come back to again and again, where I'm kind of like, okay, like, you did that thing. But, you know, just like, we've got to take accountability for the other shit. You can take accountability for it, but still be like, when there are other people in our life when they, you know, fuck up, or they're working on something, and their progress isn't linear, we aren't gonna be we're not just gonna throw them away. Do you know what I mean? But then I think so. Then I have to apply that to myself and be like, Okay, well, first of all, don't throw yourself away. But also, the people in your life are gonna throw are going to throw you away just because you know you're not on all the time, or whatever you know what I mean. So that's been a big part of it is just working on that on or,
Josh Lavine 1:15:56
I guess, not throwing you. They wouldn't throw you away if you were to be to admit that adult such that you don't need the protection from them, in other words, like the template of relationship that six almost assumes is that you're going to be there as a supporter in some kind of way. And so evolving out of that doesn't actually threaten the relationship. It just
Sarah Fair 1:16:17
Yeah, absolutely to be like, okay, because then they're not gonna, I have to trust that, yeah, just because I'm not gonna be, just because they're not gonna be filling some need for me to be like, parented, and I'm not gonna be filling that role of something that needs to be parented or fixed, we can create something there that's actually more truthful and that, like, that's okay, and I have to, like, trust that, yeah, and find a way of being that's different than just like
Josh Lavine 1:16:50
this,
Sarah Fair 1:16:53
maybe mold that I was forcing myself into unconsciously. I mean, yeah, like allowing myself to for fluidity in that, right, right? Yeah.
Josh Lavine 1:17:05
Well, okay, what has this been like for you?
Sarah Fair 1:17:06
It's been good. It's been really good. I was really nervous when we first started, but I feel a lot like better now, and I feel like there were genuine insights and stuff that happened here, and that was really cool. I really enjoyed this. I could talk about this shit for like, six I could just, I could, I mean, I listen, you know, I sent you all the bullet points and shit. I can just fucking, uh huh, go indefinitely. But, like, No, this is, remember, I've really enjoyed this. This has been really great. Yeah,
Josh Lavine 1:17:33
me too. I mean, I really no My pleasure, and thanks for wanting to do it. And, yeah, that was really cool to watch. You have so those insert insights in real time and to kind of unpack those with you. So yeah, yeah. Thanks just for being so open. I appreciate it. Yeah, cool things. Thank you for tuning into my conversation with Sarah. If you liked this conversation, then please click the like button or hit subscribe. If you're watching on YouTube, or if you're listening to this as a podcast, then you can leave up to a five star review. Or if you're on Apple or Spotify, you can also leave some comments. Those are free and very effective ways to support me and my work and the work that we do at The Enneagram School. If you like Sarah and you want to check out her music, then I recommend that you go do so you can find links to her music projects in the show notes below. Also, if you are interested in the Enneagram and you'd like to learn more about the Enneagram, then you can come check us out at the Enneagram school.com right on that website, there is free content where you can learn the basics, and also a directory of all the previous interviews that we've done. And if you get on our email list, then we will also send you updates about when we release new interviews just like this, as well as when we announce courses, retreats, workshops and things of that nature, we also have an intro course, and I want to plug that it's a great place to start if you're a beginner and if you're an advanced student. It's a great place to go back to basics. It's where we kind of lay out all the introductory concepts of the Enneagram, what makes the Enneagram, the Enneagram, and then we do a deep dive on the types. So it's a perfect orientation or reorientation. Okay, if you think that you are a good candidate to be interviewed on the show, then I'd love to hear from you. You can go to the Enneagram school.com and send me message to the contact form. Preference strongly goes to people who have been officially typed by the typing team at enneagrammer. Enneagrammer is, in my view, the world's most accurate and precise Enneagram typing service. You can go check them [email protected] check out their typing services as well as you can check out their members area, where they release weekly videos, where they type celebrities, and you can watch them make very fine tuned distinctions about the Enneagram and how types present in real time. Finally, I want to say that these this show that I'm doing here what it's like to view and also any and grammar are nodes and a network of collaborators and creatives that I want to just let you know what else is in the network. So we have another podcast called insomnia that Kristen and Kaiser and Sammy, the aka The Dream Girls do. And that is a show where they. Or the relationship between dreams and the unconscious realm and the Enneagram very powerful show. And also we have a new show coming out called House of Enneagram, which is going to be a much more open form collaboration between basically all the brilliant minds in our creative universe, where we explore everything about the Enneagram, basic concepts, advanced concepts, relationships to mainstream psychological concepts, Freud young et cetera, as well as applications or insights of the Enneagram that pertain to arts, culture, politics, current events, et cetera. So a lot of new, fresh creative energy coming there. Go check us out at House of Enneagram. All the links to all this stuff will be in the show notes below, and that is it for me. Thank you very much for watching, and I will see you next time you.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
