Kate Ortega 0:00
Really, really got walking through that with him and, like, digging into, like, why I would react, the way I would react, and things that I remembered that were negative but spun in a funny way. Then I was able to actually like, Oh, that was real negative. And I've spent my life making it theater of negative and and to actually back up and be like, Oh, I'm I didn't digest any of this, but it's inside. Welcome
Josh Lavine 0:29
to another episode of what it's like to be you. I'm Josh the line your host, and in this show, it's my job to interview accurately typed guests about their inner experience as their Enneagram type Today, my guest is Kate Ortega, who is a social, sexual seven, wing eight, with 793, trifix. And I want to set this conversation up with a couple of brief descriptions of some core aspects of seven so you have an orientation going into it. First and foremost, seven is a frustration type. And frustration is in contrast to attachment and rejection. Those terms come from object relations theory, which is a theory of psychology that deals with how we respond to misses from our caregivers in our environment in early childhood, and how those reflexive responses carry into adulthood as personality types. And so, for example, myself as an attachment type when the environment misses me, then attachment types reflective response is to adapt, to settle with what the environment is giving or to change myself, to stay in relationship, even though my caregiver or relationship partner or whoever is actually missing the mark in some way, my reflex is to adapt. Frustration types have a very different response when the world doesn't match their ideal. They well, they get frustrated, and rather than adapting, they ask the world to change to match their ideal. The frustration types in the Enneagram are types one, four and seven, and of those types, seven is the type that is an assertive type. So seven is a is a frustrated, assertive type, and also a type in the mental center. And so type seven is essentially envisioning, using the mental center, envisioning and imagining what would be the most perfect, most nourishing, most fulfilling, most optimally wonderful experience I can have. That's my deal. Comparing it to what the world is giving me getting frustrated by the by the gap between the two and caring, like all frustration types, a sense of entitlement that I should be experiencing my ideal, and I'm frustrated that I'm not, and I feel like I should be and as a seven rather than settling for an unideal set of circumstances, I'm going to vocalize I'm going to assert myself to get what I want. I'm going to ask other people to get it for me. I'm going to ask the world to change so these themes of asking for what I want and not settling for what I don't want, not settling for a sub optimal experience, and also not letting my friends settle for a sub optimal experience, and also not wanting to be constrained or limited to the kinds of experiences where I don't really feel like I'm having the most fun I can have, and being a brat and being entitled and being sometimes childish and demanding, all of these themes of type seven we explore in depth in this episode, and I learned a tremendous amount from Kate, and I'm really excited to learn from her, too. And before we do, I want to plug one thing, which is our intro course at The Enneagram School. If you are curious about the Enneagram and you are tired of trying to piece together a mosaic of different podcasts and you want a one stop shop to just get up to speed on the basic concepts and see how all of the major concepts in the Enneagram cohere into a clear and consistent framework, then our intro course is a really good place to go. You can go find it at the Enneagram school.com we lay out all the basic foundational concepts, and then we do deep dives into each type, and then we talk about how to apply those insights in your life through practice and introspection. So check it out again at the Enneagram school.com and without further ado, here's Kate. All right, I'd love to start with just some life context stuff in your interview, and also in our previous conversations, you talked about kind of your professions over time, like you kind of said, here and there you were, like, I felt like being a lifeguard. And you did that for a little while. And then you you said you did closets like you said, like, this is what you should wear, kind of personal fashion advice kind of thing. And then you did an Enneagram certification. And so do you, do you track the through line of your professional life and in that kind in a linear way? Or how to, how do you think about that?
Kate Ortega 4:31
No, yeah, no, it just I forgot that I was a lifeguard until we were talking in that moment. I was like,
Oh yeah, I also did that. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, no, I don't. I don't remember a lot of the past
and things that I've done until something is happening that brings it to mind. I don't know if that's part of being self, Pres, blind or what, but I. You know, like the plaza, I remember because it was recent. It was like 220, 20. But you know what I did up until then? Is like, and are still remember?
Josh Lavine 5:14
Yeah, it's interesting. It strikes me as self press, blind. I agree. It's, it has a social, sexual kind of like, up in the air, ness, almost like, and also, and also, it's seven, it's social, sexual, and seven together, it feels like, yeah. And I'm trying to put words to why that is. It's like, yeah. It's almost like, and also, being heartless. It's like your sense of identity. It's like, it's not, you're not tracking your sense of identity in a self pressed way, you know. And so the things you've done for a living don't really come to mind in terms of, like, when you just, when you recall your sense of self, you know, it feels like, yeah, really salient.
Kate Ortega 5:58
Yeah, yeah. When like people, when you meet them, they're like, Hey, what's your name and what do you do for a living? And I want nothing. I do nothing. So it's just like, What do I do for a living if I exist? I raise my kids. But as far as jobs go, I never wanted a job, the idea of being beholden to a boss that tells me when I can come and go and have to be there and, oh, I just it's disgusting, and I'm thoroughly disgusted that I have a job right now. But I also I realized that, like we need, we have to pay out some debt. And, I mean, my husband was like, I could go get a second job. And I was like, okay, the selfish brat in me is like, Yes, do that. But the part of him that loves him is like, you know what, I could probably get a part time job because I don't hate it and it doesn't suck, and unfortunately, I don't hate it and it doesn't suck. So I'm still there.
Josh Lavine 7:01
Yeah, so I want to pull a couple things out of what you're saying there, because, you know, one of the things that I said, like really struck me about your typing video is how plainly and boldly you express your disgust. And when I first watched your typing video, I thought maybe there's some four or even some one potential in there, because of how strong your frustration is. And then when it was like, oh, seven with an eight wing, plus nine with an eight wing. So you have the seven plus kind of like a double EIGHT hit, that kind of made sense. Yeah. It's like, yeah, yeah, yeah, that makes sense. And we have eight kind of giving permission for the seven to be as seven as it wants to be in a certain way.
Kate Ortega 7:44
Yeah. And
Josh Lavine 7:47
you know, even just in that last minute of you talking, there's a lot of negativity they're expressing, and that contrasts with seven stereotype as being kind of like a positive, happy, happy, go lucky. You use the word hippie dippie, kind of a person, you know. And so can you talk about that like, you know, I know you went through an Enneagram certification, and then you were frustrated by seven descriptions, and then realizing yourself as a seven and how you've squared all that.
Kate Ortega 8:14
Yeah, um, so I, I don't think I even really read seven because of the way it was presented, and just that happy, like, I mean, I'm like, I'm not happy, but I am not. I mean, it felt like they were saying, like they had, like a euphoria drip, just like tapped into their veins, and that so not me. I I'm like, but like says it's a theater of negative. It's like, you know, the the saying Is the glass half empty or half full? Well, the answer is, what's inside of it? Because if it's really good and I like it, it's half empty and I'm almost out, and if it's disgusting, then it's half full, and I have half of this thing to choke down. So it just pick the negative answer. That's what it is. It's not optimism or negative or pessimism, it's just negative. And so, like, seven is not me. I'm not even going to look at it, really. And I was looking through some of the other things, and I have been, I've been told that I'm too blunt. I've been told that I'm too much and and there is that, there is that, like, I I'm gonna do what I feel like doing. I don't, I don't care. So it was like a probably an eight, but when I got but it just didn't fit. It didn't feel like it was all of it. It felt like it was close and and so there was always like part in the back of my head that was like, um. And I got, you know, and then I, like, I found the big hormone Enneagram podcast based off of some line that was in their little like, this is not a four. And like, What the fuck do you think you are telling them they're not a four, you know, because the Enneagram is you know what you are, and you know yourself best, and fill in all of the Instagram bullshit. And so I like, I checked it out, and I was looking through it, and then I started listening to their podcasts, and it was like, Okay, it's still, there's still something missing, but it was still never seven. It was, it was not that at all. And then getting getting a more in depth, I think look at the instincts, which I would always kind of felt like the instincts came first before the number. It's like, yeah, you know, whether you're sexual, social or self preservation, seems like it was a before the number kind of thing and, and then I was like, Well, I'm, I'm, like, clearly sexual, because the only person I give a shit about is my husband and, um, and that whole one on one, which I still hate. I hate that. That's a thing, um, but, but it was like, okay, so yeah, that's, that's probably it. And I was looking at sexual eight, and I was like, this is just not right. And somewhere along the line, it was I came across through listening to the podcast, like the social, sexual and that that, like, clicked into place. And I was like, Yeah, okay, yes, like, social is the one on one, because that's still that's still true, that's still accurate, um, but then using sexual in the playground of that social like that makes sense. That's why, that's why I'm still like, I need to be the most attractive to my husband. I need to I still like, like I get when I get dressed like i i put on matching under garments for my husband to be attracted, even if I'm not going to put out that night. So I just and, and then I was still never seven. No. Seven never came into the play until I was like, Okay, I'm gonna, I'm gonna see what they say. I'm gonna, I'm gonna pay for a typing and see what they say, Yeah, and like, either get confirmation that it was, that it was eight, or it's something else, and possibly they're full of and so when I got back seven, I My first thought was No. Like, no. Like, you got this backwards. Maybe it's like, in eight, seven or and then nine, eight or, I don't know, but I was on vacation and walking around, and I was like, Okay, I'm gonna listen to all of their seven stuff, and maybe I can find something in there that resonates. And when I did that, it was like, Oh, I had been applying my definitions to what their information was, which I mean I do all the time, like I live in the land of Kate. And if it makes sense to me, that's all that matters. And I define things the way I want them to be, and that becomes reality. So when I I was like, listening to the seven stuff and like this, the spoiled brat, I was like, Yep, yeah. The like, petulant teenager, absolutely, and and then, and then, when it was, like, not new, like, not new experiences, but freedom and that really, that really clicked in because it's like, I I will not choose the newest or just novelty, if it's going to feel like being held back and And and get all get frustrated. Like, I know I'm going to be frustrated, but how frustrated am I going to be? Can I handle that? Like, I think the theater of negative comes in because, like, if everything is is grand and theatrical in the negative, then, um. Hmm, then I don't have to actually look at real negative.
Josh Lavine 15:06
Oh, yes, okay, this is where it gets to, you know, you talked about seven, like you talked about how you you do worst case scenario. But it's a game, and it's fun, like the fun of catastrophizing, the fun of saying the worst thing, yeah, and enjoying the negative, you know, but kind of reveling in it, yeah, yeah. What is can you talk about? Like, well, I'll draw something from your typing interview, like, or your typing video you talked about the first question is, what are your interests in hobbies? And your answer cracked me up, because in the space of about five minutes, you to you said your interest in hobbies were tattoos, crows, Pimple Popper videos, Harry Potter and fashion, and first of all, just that, that, that assortment of things. I just thought, Okay, this is when, when you're typing, came back at seven. I was like, Okay, this makes sense, because it was just so kind of, it's sort of haphazard and all over the place in a whimsical way, you know? But there's this, I don't know how to say this. There's a, there was something about, like, when you're talking about fashion, for example, you're like, as soon as you said fashion, you're like, Okay, fashion, but not what's trending, not what everyone's wearing. It's like, making a wardrobe for yourself. And then there was a you talked about being, wanting it to feel bougie, and wanting it to feel, you know, XYZ thing. And there was a sense of, as soon as you dropped, like you're interested in this thing, there was, but not x, and actually what I'm interested in this. And so there was kind of the frustration edge in your description of what you were interested in. And yeah, a a spirit of almost judgment and negativity even as you're describing the thing you're interested in. Does that make
Kate Ortega 17:09
sense? Yeah? Yeah, that's a good way of describing it, yeah. So kind
Josh Lavine 17:14
of what made what it made me wonder was, Are you being intentionally entertaining, or is it entertaining because you're being so sincere? Does that make sense? Like, how much it
Kate Ortega 17:29
goes back and forth? Okay, some of it is. Sometimes I know, sometimes in the moment, I know that crossing this line and saying this thing is going to get a reaction, and I want that. And sometimes it just comes out, and then, you know, tomorrow Kate has to deal with the consequences. Uh
Josh Lavine 17:47
huh, okay, yeah, but, and when it just comes out, like, do you have an example?
Kate Ortega 17:56
Well, when I was watching the video back, I was talking about, like, I don't, I don't remember saying it, and I don't remember how it got out, like, what led up to it, but I was, I think it was talking about how, like, I just, I just put out there that I did really good hand jobs, and I just live Like, yeah, I
Josh Lavine 18:20
was gonna ask you about that. I mean, I'm
Kate Ortega 18:24
not wrong, but I would not realize I said that I
Josh Lavine 18:28
have the quote. Can I read you the cut? Because I wrote it down. I was like, This is amazing. You just said, Okay, you were talking about fashion, and you were talking about how you Yeah, you started talking about how you were interested in creating a wardrobe of 50 shades of white for yourself, not beige, white, off white, cream, etc. And then you were talking about how you you started cultivating a wardrobe, and you had this sense of wanting to be edgy, but you dropped it because, and this is where you said, you said, I want it to look like I'm big and tough and could kick your ass, and I'm just not like my arms are for decorative purposes only. They hold my tattoos and my jewelry, and I give a really good hand job, but they're not with muscles like I would lose in a fist fight. And so I dropped the edge apart and so, so that just, that just came out,
Kate Ortega 19:19
yeah, um, like, the the part with my tattoos and my jewelry, absolutely true. I've said it a lot, like, my left hand is almost useless just holding up my ring. But the other part was just like, Yeah, I mean, I would lose in a fist fight because I don't have, I don't have muscles, but yeah, the part about giving a really good hand job. Totally did not realize I said it until after I watched the
Josh Lavine 19:45
video. All right, just contrasting your experience with me for a second, being you being social seven and me being social three, just taking those aspects of our typing, it's very it would be, I would say, almost. Impossible for me to like, say something on camera, if I'm being recorded, and to not immediately have like, if I were to say something like I didn't want to say, or like it contrasted with an image that I'm trying to present. Or if it was like, if I if I said something that I was like, Ooh, I shouldn't have said that, I would immediately recognize it. And it's interesting to me to hear you talk about, like, saying something like that, and then being like, Oh, I didn't even realize I said it until I watched the video back. Yeah, so no, I guess, or Yeah, go ahead, I
Kate Ortega 20:34
would just say, like, I don't, I don't know. Sometimes I'll just start talking like, it's like Michael Scott, like I'll get to the end, and maybe I'll find my way around to what I'm actually pointing out, but probably not. It
Josh Lavine 20:47
kind of gets to this point I was going to bring up about in your typing, there's no super ego. You don't have any one two or six. There's no super ego in your typing. There's no one two or six, right? So it's,
Kate Ortega 21:00
no, I married super ego. You
Josh Lavine 21:03
did. What's what happens? Yeah,
Kate Ortega 21:06
uh, he's a one, probably 164, if I had to really get down farther.
Josh Lavine 21:11
Oh, wow. Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, I guess what, what really struck me, watching your watching your typing video was that so? Okay, so it's seven, wing eight, nine, wing eight, and then three, wing four. So, like I said, 126, not present. And so there's not any kind of internal kickback of, should I should do this or this, I should meet some expectation. Or,
Kate Ortega 21:38
yeah, that's always, that's always, only ever in hindsight, usually after it's been pointed out, there's like, oh, I probably shouldn't have said that. Or relationships are lost, like, and sometimes I'm like, I there's probably something that I said there, because I'm feeling like, there's a feeling of, like, conviction, like, I think, I think I actually did something wrong there, and that's why the relationship is gone. But,
Josh Lavine 22:12
yeah, one of the things that's coming up for me is that you, it's just a sense that you take friendship really seriously, like, it matters to you? Yeah,
Kate Ortega 22:22
yeah, yeah. I don't have many of them, but the ones that I do have are very serious,
Josh Lavine 22:29
yeah, and it makes sense that you do as just being that you're a dominant social type. I can't think of a better way to ask it, but what's What is friendship for you? What does it mean to you? Why is it important?
Kate Ortega 22:47
Um, so, friendship like it starts with getting along with somebody like vibing with their like the way they're fucked up, like they they, they need, they need to have, they need to have the sense of humor. Because I have a very juvenile, like, sexual sense of humor. And if I just get looks that are blank back i We can't be friends, but your your your trauma level and being fucked up needs to vibe with mine so that we can have conversations and then and then after that, I Need, I don't want to say, like, dependable, but I need reciprocity. Like, if I, if I'm not, if I'm reaching out to you, I need you to respond. If I'm not reaching out to you and you're not reaching out to me, that's almost even still fine, because it's reciprocal. They're still like, okay, we're just doing stuff. But I I need to be able to have fun with you, but depend on the fact that if you know, if it's not fun, that you're also there for the shit.
Josh Lavine 24:19
Okay, yeah, that makes sense, because
Kate Ortega 24:21
I'm gonna be there. I'm gonna be there for your shit. It's not your kids, but your shit. Like, I'm like, I'm not that. Babysit a friend. Don't call me. But if you need a ride to the hospital, I will give you a ride. I'll take you to the hospital. I will sit there with the with you in the doctor's office, and I will advocate that you get this procedure done. I I tend to stand up for my friends more I don't say more than they do, but I can't stand watching them be like bullied and mistreated, especially by their own fucking kids. That drives me nuts, but I. But by other people, it's like, no, you You deserve better. Like, why are you putting up with this bullshit? And sometimes I will forget to be compassionate, and I will forget to be like, yeah, that really sucks. My first thing is like, no, let's go to arms. You know, we ride it on bitches. And I just, yeah, I like, so, I mean, once again, that's like, why I was thinking I was an eight. But, yeah, yeah. So friendship, to me, is somebody where there's like, the fun and the bad, can both mesh. Well, I want
Josh Lavine 25:39
to come back to this piece about how your friends have to be a certain level of or they have to be able to vibe with a certain level of in your words, fucked upness. And can you say more about that? Like, what does that term mean? And I have a sense of maybe what it means. I'll reference some things that you said in your typing video, but I'm curious you said in your actually, before I prompt you, I want to hear what you say. So yeah, we're what does that mean?
Kate Ortega 26:07
Yeah. So like I I want to make an off color joke and have you laugh. I don't want you to look at me like, No, we're serious. Now I want, like I do. I enjoy bantering about pessimism and the negativity, and if you take it seriously and bring me down, we can't be friends like I need you. I need you to roll your eyes and just like, Okay. I need you to feel like I need you to be okay with whatever what I'm putting out and give some back. Like, I need, I need a playful interaction. But it can't, it can't really always be serious, or, like, hardly ever be serious. And, yeah, like, if I'm, if I'm pointing out to, like, I love watching videos of people falling and getting hurt. And if you think that that's like, cruel, we can't be friends, and if I like to, I don't know I like to, I like to dork around and say stupid shit, and not have you. I don't judging. Maybe like not judging, but it just, I can't have a blank wall when I look at you, yeah,
Josh Lavine 27:21
yeah, yeah, it's, I, it feels like, well, it's both seven and social sexual to me, because it's that social sexual thing is like, let's have a sleepover party and gossip and talk about, like, the bad stuff. And just like, if we can't have that kind of like, you know, parents are gone, we're gonna just, you know, have fun. Like, no, no adults around that vibe that's like a, that's like a, there's something sacred about that to you, you know, yeah, yeah.
Kate Ortega 27:50
Like, if you can't be playful, it does feel like death. It just like the relationship is dead. There's nothing here keeping it alive,
Josh Lavine 28:00
right, right, right. So you talked about, you mentioned the term spoiled brat earlier, and I want to talk about how much you relate to that term. And let's see how to put this. Yeah, do you do you relate to that term?
Kate Ortega 28:25
Absolutely, I do like that accurate, and I'm okay with that, and you're okay with it, yeah,
Josh Lavine 28:33
yeah, and, yeah, okay, that's kind of amazing, right there, because that, right, that, right there is what I was talking about, the absence of super ego. You know, there's no like, there's no guilt backlash, there's like, permission to be that. Yeah, and so,
Kate Ortega 28:49
yeah, yeah, um.
Josh Lavine 28:54
So, speaking of that, can we talk about, like, this idea of your term of, like, wanting to be a kept woman and and what that means and why that's important to
Kate Ortega 29:08
you, really. So I remember so, like, I didn't remember it until I was, like, doing the doing the thing about, like, you know, what was your some of your greatest ambitions, or something like that, yes, like, you want to be when you were a kid or something. That's it. That's like, one of my earliest memories was i Okay, so, like, tiny little back thing, like, I was with my mom at Kmart, I think, when it still existed, and we were, we were at the checkout, and we were getting something, and the girl scanned something, and all I remember Was she scanned it and said, Oh, you don't want it. And like, and she took it, and I no memory of whatsoever connected to that, other than that moment. And I was like, oh, like, the person at the store gets to decide. What you buy that's amazing. If I have to have a job someday like I wanted, I remember I wanted to fall head over heels in love and or actually, just for some for a man to fall head over heels in love with me. He it was very important that he loved me more than I loved him. Okay, and and wanted nothing more than to take care of me. And I could, if I wanted to, I could, like, drive a Ferrari and work at Kmart and decide what people get, because in my head, that's how it worked. But I wanted to be a kept woman. I wanted to wake up late and like I used, I actually used to have one of those, one of those robes that, like, you know, you you probably picture it. It's the robe that the woman is wearing when the cops show up at her door to tell her that her husband's been murdered. You know that rope
fur, some feathers around it, and big, huge, free sleeves. But the rest of the thing is kind of see through, like, I had one of those, like, that's the life I wanted to live. I wanted to live in the big house, and and, and be a kept woman. I didn't know the word for it at the time, um, until my, my friend of mine was laughing at me. She's like, Oh my God, you wanted to be a kept woman. Yeah, I wanted to be a trophy wife, all right? Because
I hate admitting this, but like, I've always been, okay, tiny little moment where, like, a little bit of judgment and thought is coming up.
I have always been, I hate saying this. It's like, it's like vomiting my mouth. I've always been a beautiful girl. Let's put that out there. Okay, so nothing more was expected of me growing up like it was just that. And it was like I could, I could be a trophy wife. I could, I could, you know, I could marry wealthy and be the the beauty on the arm and that had so much freedom. I'm sorry. I hate talking about how I look. That carried with it so much freedom, though, because a kept woman, she did whatever she wanted, she got her nails done, she had the best clothes. She got to sleep in, she got to wear, you know, just just be, just be and do whatever she wanted with this, with this man who loved her so much that he wanted to do nothing but give her everything of her heart's desire. So, yeah, when I was a little kid, I was like, That's the life I want.
Josh Lavine 32:56
And yeah, so there's that word freedom again, and what? What freedom to what freedom to do, what
Kate Ortega 33:03
anything from what like, anything from drudgery, from, from boring, from, from the have to, you don't have to. You don't have to, like, do laundry. She doesn't have to do anything. She gets to do whatever fun that she wants.
Josh Lavine 33:31
Yeah, have you, I guess, something that was kind of striking to me about and that just is striking to me about you, is this, let me think about how to say this. I find myself almost nervous to ask you this question, but I'm gonna ask it anyway. You let me know if it's I'm actually even curious if this question lands on you in any kind of way that feels like a wince or something, but it's as if there's no part of your identity wrapped up in a sense of pride to be able to provide or do for yourself in the self pres way. It's like, yeah,
Kate Ortega 34:11
that no, I love having everybody do everything for me. Okay, yeah, right.
Josh Lavine 34:16
It is just amazing. Because as a three I just, it's like, have a such a hard time and even entering into that. But, yeah, so say more about that. That's, I mean, it's really interesting. Yeah,
Kate Ortega 34:26
so like, if, if it wasn't for my husband, I would probably, like, be malnourished and waste away, because I when, when he travels, like, I hardly eat, because I just don't even think about it. And nobody has made me breakfast, nobody has made me lunch like if we had when our kids were little, I had to, I had to, I had to feed them, I had to take care of them, and in doing so, I fed and took care of myself, especially when my husband was gone. But oh my gosh, I love going back to my parents house and not being the top mom anymore and Like. Was looking at garami,
Josh Lavine 35:02
yeah, and that, that stuff, taking care of yourself, or doing that, doing the laundry, that kind of stuff, that's drudgery. That's what you want to freedom from.
Kate Ortega 35:11
Yeah, oh, I hate it. Yeah, yeah. You
Josh Lavine 35:15
talked about in your typing video, going to Paris and not having a budget, and that feeling like a certain kind of freedom for you, and you talk about actually when you have a budget. I loved your phrase. You said you felt like you feel like a caged cat when there's a budget, but when you're in Paris, you didn't have one, and it felt free. And there was also surrounded by beauty and stuff like that. So can you say a little more about that?
Kate Ortega 35:40
Yeah, it was. It was amazing, because everywhere we went was, was, was, I mean, everywhere we went was new, but it was also beautiful, like it was. It was so cool, um, walking around and just seeing this building that had gorgeous carvings in the tops of them and around and it's like a bank, you know, like nothing in historic downtown historical or historical Paris was boring. And yeah, so having no budget like right now, right now because, not just because I've had to get a part time job to help pay off the debt we got from our daughters and our son's wedding. They both got married this summer. It def it feels restrictive like I've like my eye has not stopped twitching since I got the job, and in November and and I just like the whole thing. It just it feels it feels restrictive, it feels tight, it feels like I am an occasion. I'm stuck there, and I hate it, but I am choosing to endure for the freedom on the other side. And because I love my husband, I keep forgetting that part, because I love my husband. Yeah, out, yeah, and, and it is, it is helpful to him. And I'm, I'm benevolently working.
Josh Lavine 37:17
That's so good, yeah, um, that's, that's so generous of you to do that. That's what I feel like
Kate Ortega 37:26
I have volunteered.
Josh Lavine 37:30
You know, I guess I wanted to ask you about being assertive. Because, you know, you have two assertive fixes. Your court seven with an a wing. So that's, that's actually three. You have all 378, wing, and then you also have three fix and your third slot, right? 793, I think, yeah, yeah. Wanna ask you about being assertive. Because as a seven, you are very assertive. You talked about, in your typing video, being very assertive, about asking for what you want and like, for example, even you talked about if you want a, I forget the specific. I think actually it was like a, if you want a, yeah, a chai tea latte. What you do if you want the chai tea latte with two caramel shots in a, in a mug? You don't want it in it to go cup, because it tastes like trash that way. This is what you
Kate Ortega 38:22
said, yeah. It takes like, it tastes like takeaway, yeah. So
Josh Lavine 38:25
you're very so you so you know what you want, and start you have a sense of what you want, you ask for it. But where, where the, I think, as a three, where the the confusion of the breakdown comes from, me, is knowing what you want, asking for what you want, but this almost allergy to, I'll use the word work for what you want. Um, yeah, you know what I'm saying. How do you what is, can you just talk about that, like in, how that, how that lives in you?
Kate Ortega 38:55
I just don't care. I see, don't care about, yeah, yeah. The the end, the entitled spoiled brat lives strong, like, I know what I want and I should get what I want just because, like and why I don't some somebody needs to earn it, but it shouldn't be me. So
Josh Lavine 39:15
I guess what's fascinating to me as a three is it's like, almost, because as a three, I'm like, I'm also an assertive type, but work is sort of a part of my bones or something. It's like, yeah, if I want something, I'm gonna, I'm gonna really try to work for it. So it's this as a seven, the sense of like I hold, the ideal of what it could be, but also paired with, excuse me, a sense of entitlement that it should just already be this way, and I should get to experience it in the in the way that my deal is presenting, and I feel deprived if I'm not experiencing it like that. And so I'm asking for it. I'm asking for the world to change, to get it to get yes, that okay, so that whole thing felt on target. Okay, yeah, yeah.
Kate Ortega 40:00
What's your experience? Also, what the is wrong with you that you're not giving it to me,
Josh Lavine 40:05
right, right? Have you ever gotten in trouble for that? I don't mean in trouble with authorities, but like getting got into like relational trouble, or people been frustrated with you for being that way.
Kate Ortega 40:22
I I don't know if I see it as getting in trouble. My My counselor did tell me that I should start writing a gratitude journal because I was it was like spiraling in my depression, the that it wasn't the way it would supposed to be. And then, like, COVID really tanked it. And I imagine, yeah, yeah. And so he's like, Okay, I need you to like, three things every day that you were grateful for that day. And that helped, that, I mean, that helped. But, um, my husband does say it's, like, my probably my least attractive quality, okay, but I don't know if it, I don't think that I would even notice getting in trouble for it. I might, in like, hindsight, notice, like, okay, maybe that was part of it. But I So, I feel so entitled to it that I just don't know this, if it's negative mood, yeah, I'm entitled to air. So I really so
Josh Lavine 41:31
totally, Oh, that makes so much sense. And actually it makes it's revealing my own bias as a triple attachment, especially maybe even six fixed or like this term, getting in trouble. You know, it's like not a thing that registers in your mind, being in trouble,
Kate Ortega 41:46
yeah? Yeah. It's more like, is this gonna, is this gonna, is this gonna be a real negative, not, not a fun negative. Is this gonna be a real negative? Maybe could be the sevens equivalent of getting in trouble, but, but, like, I'm a grown ass adult. Who am I gonna get in trouble with?
Josh Lavine 42:09
Uh huh, yeah, uh huh. I have a question for you that I like, also, again, I'm nervous to ask it, but do you do you So you mentioned that it was really important to you when you were young to find someone that loved you more than you loved them. What happened with that in your relationship?
Kate Ortega 42:30
Oh, he totally loved me more than I left him.
Josh Lavine 42:32
Uh huh. And what about now? Yeah,
Kate Ortega 42:36
now I think it's more like evening out. I mean, it's been 27 years, yeah, so, yeah. I mean, I really, truly love Him. But if we're looking at love on a sacrificial level, it's still definitely him more than me. Okay, um, he, he's he, he's amazing. Um, he does. I can tell that his one, like his goals when he wakes up in the morning is to take care of me and provide for me and make my life
Josh Lavine 43:04
better. And he, and he loves that. He loves to do that. Yeah,
Kate Ortega 43:08
wow, yeah. There's no, there's no moment where it seems like he's like it's begrudging, or like it's something he has to do, right, right, right. But that makes me want to be good to him. That makes me want to be a good wife, just feeling that love and adoration. I mean, I don't want it to be one sided, but it definitely, I think if we were to like, Okay, who loves you more? It's definitely he loves me more.
Josh Lavine 43:32
Okay, yeah, yeah. What if it were, what if it were the reverse? What
Kate Ortega 43:39
do you mean? I
Josh Lavine 43:40
just mean, what would be the I guess, what I meaning is, what would be the fear, or what was the what's in it for you, the the the ideal of having someone love you more
Kate Ortega 43:54
than you love them? Well, early on, it was like skin in the game, like if I was the one that was more into the relationship than he was. That leaves myself up for being vulnerable and getting hurt and like allowing, allowing that level in, that that social, sexual level in like,
Josh Lavine 44:22
mm, right, right, yeah.
Kate Ortega 44:27
That leads to real negative,
Josh Lavine 44:30
yeah. The real negative being that you you could get hurt, or that it would be a kind of being trapped, a limitation, or what? How would you phrase it,
Kate Ortega 44:46
um, that I could get hurt, that that there would, there'd be a piece of me that I let someone else have, I like I can't get back. Uh huh.
Josh Lavine 45:01
It's, yeah, I see, I see it feel it's the the eight stuff is coming in here. I'm just hearing some of that, that sense of exposing yourself to that cert, that kind of vulnerability and giving someone maybe leverage over you, or something like that. Maybe, is that a way? Does that resonate that language? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, interesting. So, okay, other topic, I wanted to talk to you about Harry Potter, and so you mentioned I just learned this about you minutes ago, like, right before we started recording, you said you liked Harry Potter in your typing video. But can you just describe what is your relationship to Harry Potter? Like, what's
Kate Ortega 45:43
Yeah, I I read Harry when the third book came out. I was hearing about it, and I was like, Okay, well, I'm gonna, let's start from the beginning. So I got one, two and three, and I read through all three of them, and I think I was hooked. And then I just read through them again and again and again. And then the fourth one came out. And so I added that one in the rotation, and I just did that for 20, what, 20 something years now, my my counselor, when I started, when I started therapy, said that it was almost like a like a security blanket or something. When I that I turned to when I was feeling stressed and overwhelmed, I would jump into this land of make believe, this land of magic, where it just it, just it caught it caught on in in a way, the So, so fantastical, yeah, so now it's like, oh, man, goals for my life. I would love, I would love to move to Orlando again and live there again and get a job at Universal in the Harry Potter section as like a host, which and show little kids how to do the, do the spells and do do all of that.
Josh Lavine 47:06
Uh huh, that sounds like a dream. I've been there. It's incredible, but, yeah, it's amazing. But what I'm what I'm fascinated by, is the consistency with which you brought yourself to those books and what they did for you. And this is, I don't know if this is even this is fair language, but what struck me about it was, first of all, like the comfort seeking, like your therapist kind of pointed out, and also it feels almost like, like a proxy for self pres grounding, you know, like in a world of in a world of chaos, you Have these physical books that you can come back to that provide a sense of stability.
Kate Ortega 47:48
Yeah, yeah, I definitely feel the pull towards start. It's almost like an addiction I can I would feel the pull like when things are getting a little down or boring or like too, too, too much expectation and the stress, too much of life. That's not joy pulling in. I can, I can feel the pull to start reading the books again. Yeah,
Josh Lavine 48:17
great. You mentioned when you started seeing your therapist, and I'm wondering, how long have you seen the Is that okay to ask, How long have you seen your therapist, and what, what prompt? What prompted you to go,
Kate Ortega 48:30
um, so I think it was about 2017 2018 ish, it was actually a friend of mine who really tragic. She found out she had breast cancer and like, within the year she was gone, but she was actually the one that was like, you need you need counseling. You're the way you're looking at this is not good for your kids, the way you're like, I had no grace in my life. It was all it was pretty heavy handed. I didn't know how to handle I didn't know how to handle the negative stuff. And so I just, like, went with what I was raised with in punishments, but I think she was looking at the fact that she was going to die, and her son, and then my son, and as I'm talking, she's like, You need to go to counseling. And so I was like, okay, like, Sure. And so, yeah, started, I started going and working through the Depression. Because I was, I was, I was getting depressed before 2000 or 2020, and COVID. I think if I wasn't in counseling during that time, I probably would just have been a shell of a shell of a person right now. Yeah, I never got to the point where I was like idol ideation for shuicide. I. But, but it was definitely like my bother, uh huh, my mother, yeah, and and then, and with my kids, it was like the Joy was gone. And so anything that they did that caused more headache or work for me was harshly dealt with, and that's not a way, that's not a good way to be with your kids.
Josh Lavine 50:26
Yeah, and that sounds miserable to be in that place. What what helped? And how are you now?
Kate Ortega 50:35
Now, I'm a lot better now. What helped was actually just going and talking through the stuff, having, having somebody, having somebody that, well, one that I I trusted him. I decided, I decided when I went in that I was going to trust him. And he came recommended by a friend of mine. And so I was like, Okay, I'm gonna trust him and what he has to say. And so when he would tell me that ugly stuff that I didn't want to hear, but was necessary to hear, I had a week to to really think about it. And I also used to record the sessions with him, so that, if it was like, because I want to, I want to just like, take in what I want, and if I don't want to, just like, vomit it back out and not not deal with it, but I was like, No, I'm gonna actually do this. And so listening, listening to some of the some of the stuff, actually talking about it, getting to have somebody say that I wasn't exaggerating like that, there wasn't something wrong with me that, that what I was, what I was experiencing, was valid. What I was, what I was, I see, yeah, doing with it was destructive, but, but the fact of what I was talking about was valid, I see, and, yeah, just to have, I guess, somebody that didn't like, didn't know me, and was able to just listen, and I don't know, he wasn't like, it wasn't a friend, it wasn't Dan, it wasn't, um, like, he didn't have to say anything to maintain relationship, I guess. So really, really got walking through that with him and like, digging into, like, why I would react, the way I would react, and things that I remembered that were negative, but spun in a funny way that then I was able to actually like, Oh, that was real negative. And I spent my life making it theater of negative. And because of that, it just like, it just like festered inside and grew and this, and then was coming out in me. And so actually being able to label that, having, having somebody like, like, I'm telling this story that I think is funny, and somebody is looking at me going, like, why are you laughing? Right now, right yeah, right, because it's funny. How is that funny? That sounds terrifying. Like, I mean, that wasn't terrifying, like, but you were, you were little like, are you? How is that not scary? Yeah, and, and to actually back up and be like, Oh, I'm I didn't digest any of this, but it's inside, right?
Josh Lavine 54:07
Oh, man, it's so profound what you're saying, and it's so core to the seven dynamic, right? It's like experience happens, and instead of, like, really digesting it and registering how it's impacting you, and then processing it in what you might consider a healthy way this, the seven pattern, is to kind of almost bounce out of it, or, you know, rather than being soaked and drenched in the kind of, what's the right way to put it? Well, a way I sometimes think about sevens is like going into and processing and processing and digesting painful experiences is like jumping into a pool and just staying in there and just being wet. But what happens with sevens is like, they'll they'll put their toe in, and they'll experience that they could describe the pool from a distance, but actually going in and just being wet and then let it and then coming out and really drying themselves off, and actually having really done it. You know, done that work is really hard, and so I, you know, I I love what you're saying of and
Kate Ortega 55:06
double meanings. I hate getting, what? Why? I hate showering.
Josh Lavine 55:09
Oh, yeah, there you go. Yeah, totally Yeah. Are you? You don't have to. Are you willing to share an example of one of those experiences that he had that reaction to, like, why are you? Why are you laughing?
Kate Ortega 55:21
Yeah, I was a kid, and I was walking to school, and I essentially almost got kidnapped. I was, I was walking to school and like an old in my mind, it was a Trans Am, like one of those old cars and some kind of sketchy looking older teenage, maybe 20s, boys and were driving, and they stopped and, like, at the intersection so I couldn't cross the street. And I remember, like, one of them, one of them said, like, like, Hey, cutie, where are you going? You want to ride? And I'm like, I was just like, oh, he thinks I'm cute. Yeah, sure. I know I'm heading to school. And I had to been like, fourth or fifth grade at the most, and and, like, he got out and, like, pulled the front seat of his of his car back, and I started to get in the car, if it wasn't for my sister, that was like, Are you stupid? What the hell is wrong with you? You can get in this car with a straight you're literally taking a ride from a stranger. And I was just like, but he just, he just asked if I wanted a ride. I mean, you know, and I'm sitting there thinking like, Oh my gosh. I'm just thinking, like, those days it was cute, like, why are you laughing? Yeah, because it was because it was funny. Like, no, you, you were a little kid, and now, so I didn't make this connection. Let's just put that out there. I didn't make this connection. It was made for me. But I'm almost positive the song Take on me by Aha, was playing on that radio in the car because I I couldn't stand that song. And I like the song, but I couldn't stand listening to it the second part, the second part where he says, where he actually sings the chorus line, Take on me. The second one gives me like, like, I want to pull in on myself, and it hurts, and I feel sexually violated. Aha, yeah, yeah. And, and it was like, I don't know, there's just something about that song. And it was, like, it was in counseling. There was like, Okay, so, you know, like, you've got this, you got this song, and like, do you suppose? And I was like, I think that was playing on the radio. Wow. I think, I think that they were listening to that when I almost got in the car, um, yeah, because it's, like, the only song that does that, and I listen to it on repeat, trying to get past that feeling, trying to make that not be a thing, because I hate that. It's like, over me. But yeah,
Josh Lavine 58:15
there's so this is so. It's so rich what you're describing. And that's a really precise and specific thing, like a somatic memory, to have that just that specific piece of that song, and to have it produce that feeling in you of sexual violation and like that, just that ick, you know,
Kate Ortega 58:30
yeah, it was like, in the moment. It was like, What are you feeling right now? Why did you just do that? Like I had no I had no words for it. I didn't notice I was doing it. It just, it was like, what's happening right now? I was like, I feel like sexually violated right now.
Josh Lavine 58:48
So when you so now, now that you've kind of processed this memory in therapy and have a different relationship to it, when you think about you being that little girl in that moment, almost getting in that car, do you experience the the do you actually register the darkness of the dark side of the malice of that story and the intent of that person and stuff like that? What? Because it sounds like, before you experience, you process this in therapy, your memory of that, you just, I don't know, kind of glossed over it. It was like, oh, a thing I almost did, but I didn't, oh, you know, oops, whatever. Um, and now how it's taken root in you, and just, what? Yeah, what's your relationship to that memory now?
Kate Ortega 59:32
Um, now. Now it's like, like, I can feel it like coming in, and I want to, I want to scooch away, like, like, like, it's a like, I've got a burn and it, and it's a fire, and I'm like, That's yeah, and I physically wanted run away from it. What's,
Josh Lavine 59:48
what's coming up for me is that the, let's see how to put it, like the skill you learned, for lack of a better term in processing, that memory is basically the skill. Of dropping in and actually letting the experience touch you, or, like, go inside and actually you, you, you really being with your experience. And so rather than, I don't know, let's say, like, with your depression or the feelings of hopelessness and stuff, rather than doing the seven thing of just trying to, like, be free of them or not go all the way into them, or have a reaction to them, or go to Harry Potter books for the 101st time, or something like that, actually, to be with those experiences and let them digest.
Kate Ortega 1:00:31
Yeah, that's really hard. Yeah, yeah, that's really hard. Yeah, sometimes I don't even know what's happening until afterwards.
Josh Lavine 1:00:39
Right, right? And that makes sense, too. I was thinking, Oh, I was thinking too with, you know, because you have a nine week eight fix and seven week eight. So it's, it's, there's a lot of that. It's a lot of gut energy. But it's not frustration, gut, you know, it's attachment and rejection, gut, and so it's like things go in to the cauldron, but there's not that sort of somatic irritation that wants to, like, get it. It's just kind of can kind of go in there and then let's see how to put it just get contained into a kind of, like a somatic vault, without there being a churning or processing. And so you have, like, mixed frustration, right? But like, the um, actually accessing those somatic memories and impressions, and then, you know, surfacing them and considering them and letting them go through a process, or get actually cooked or something like that. It feels that's, it feels like that's something that you've learned in the last
Kate Ortega 1:01:37
few years. Yeah, just that, just to recognize that, like, Oh, I'm bouncing right now hard, like, sometimes, like, my inside my head, I'll just start playing a song and or playing something, a movie. I like, I can, I can tell, like, my brain has just bounced. So what, what was just, what was just happening? What am i Yes, what am I leaving? And what are you bouncing from? Right? I guess just recognizing the therapy really helped me recognize that, that feeling, that that I doing,
Josh Lavine 1:02:15
yes, yeah. And what happens now, when you notice yourself doing
Kate Ortega 1:02:20
that a lot of times I can back up and be like, Okay, wait, what's really happening here? What, what is, what is really happening inside? Like, what am I really thinking and breaking that down?
Josh Lavine 1:02:37
Right, right, right. Okay, makes sense? Well, let's see. So I'm noticing the time, and I'm wondering if there's anything that I haven't asked you, that I should or that anything else about seven or your inexperience that feels important, that we should cover?
Kate Ortega 1:03:02
Yeah, I don't know. I think we just, we did. I'm just thinking, like, one of the big things that resonated, and it was like, Okay, I didn't realize that that was seven, was the need, the need for freedom, the theater of negative, making, making things negative for fun. And and I even, even just down into being negative, is because that is, that's free. I can jump around and play in there real negative. I have to actually deal with it. And that's not freedom. That's, that's, that's now something that's been placed on me or how some kind of hold over me. I love
Josh Lavine 1:03:43
this distinction you're making between fun negative and real negative. And how your how your your your process with therapy help you actually realize that you were making some things that were real negative into fun negative, or you were making light of real negativity, as opposed to letting the distinction be real. Some things are fun negative, but some things are real negative, and actually letting that distinction exist. And when something is real negative, actually dealing with it at that level, rather than jumping out and making it fun or something that feels like that feels like the thing that has turned you around the last couple years from the depression, yeah,
Kate Ortega 1:04:23
yeah. And actually, going back to the question of, like, friends and stuff, yeah, that's one of the things. Is like, okay, we can, we can do real negative. We can do the fun negative, and but in the real negative, are you gonna be there for me and I can be there for you? Totally, like, this is actually, this is a real negative.
Josh Lavine 1:04:45
Totally. That's yeah, that makes total sense. And I love that framing Yes. That makes yes true. Yes. I was gonna add commentary, but it was that was very well said. Yeah. Well, what's this been like to do this interview?
Kate Ortega 1:05:04
Oh, it's been interesting. I think it was like, What did I say? And, yeah, I don't, I don't know. I don't know how it's how it's been. I'm not digesting it.
Josh Lavine 1:05:20
Okay, how do you feel right now?
Kate Ortega 1:05:27
Like, I don't know. Like, there's probably more to say, but I don't know what. So there's, there's like, because even just in there's a, there's a also a depth of realness that that takes a while down to get to right. Everything in me wants to stay up in superficial, yeah, yeah. And, and stay up in, in the the fun, negative, and to get down in there, it's like, it's like, the tipping, dipping, the toe in like, Okay, I'll try a little bit here and then. But, okay, I've tested it. I don't need anymore, right, right? So, yeah, well,
Josh Lavine 1:06:15
do you want to take a breath and see if there's anything
Kate Ortega 1:06:21
left? I'll see. I don't think so. Okay,
Josh Lavine 1:06:30
it it strikes me to ask one last question, which is, what's it like to be in this in this moment of kind of stillness
Kate Ortega 1:06:39
and restfulness? Oh, I don't it doesn't feel still to me at all, like I doesn't know, even sitting here, I can't be still. I've got a fidget somehow, like, when there's pauses, the Jeopardy theme song is playing in my head. And yeah, so that's one of the things with the social it was like, besides the one on one, it was like, No, I'm not really social. I don't really care for crowds, and it's just like, I don't have a lot of friends, and I'm fairly introverted, but I can sit for like, Great hours by myself on social media and and being social. But there's never a still.
Josh Lavine 1:07:28
Yeah, yeah. Is do you? Is it something that you yearn for? Do you want stillness or you prefer the activity?
Kate Ortega 1:07:37
It feels boring. Feels boring. Yeah, yeah. Like, I can do stillness. Stillness for my body is fine. Stillness for my mind feels like death. So, like, that's why there's all there's always some things. Like, I need to stimulate my brain somehow, even if I'm rereading Harry Potter for the 100 and 50th time, it's just because I'm I'm reading it and I'm imagining it and or, you know, I'm scrolling and I'm thinking about what's being said and noticing how stupid stuff is. And right, like watching the Pimple Popper videos wondering, like, how the do you let it get that far? Like they make tools for you to get at it, and extra nears, like, how do you let it get the heart? Yeah, but yeah, disgusting and fascinating. I love it. It
Josh Lavine 1:08:30
is, yeah, well, and it's, it's interesting just right now, kind of watching you in real time, like finding things in your mind that activate you, you know, like the pimp, like the Pimple Popper video came into your mind just now, and it was like, Oh yeah, there's like, a thing that I am entertained by and also disgusted by, and want to, like, share,
Kate Ortega 1:08:53
yeah, yeah, yeah,
Josh Lavine 1:08:58
yeah, yeah. Well, thank you for doing this, and I really appreciate and admire your openness. It's kind of amazing to me and like I just love how self accepting you are. It's it genuinely is an inspiration to me, how self accepting
Kate Ortega 1:09:18
you are. Yeah, I don't understand how people cannot like you are who you are, just I mean, if people aren't gonna like you, that's okay,
Josh Lavine 1:09:31
yeah, yeah. Well, okay, thank you very much. We'll close, and I'll talk to you soon. Thanks for tuning into my conversation with Kate Ortega. If you liked this conversation, then please click the like button or hit subscribe on YouTube. Or if you're listening to this as a podcast, then you can leave up to a five star review and also comment on either Spotify or Apple or wherever you're listening. Those are free and very effective ways of supporting me and the show and what we do with. Enneagram school, so we really appreciate we knew that. And also, I'd like to give a plug for our intro course, which I plugged in the in the beginning of this episode. You can go find that at the Enneagram school.com go check it out there. And also, I recommend that you get on our email list to stay tuned for updates about upcoming courses and retreats and workshops and podcasts and all that kind of stuff. And also, if you think that you are a good candidate to be interviewed on the show, then I'd love to hear from you. Preference goes to people who have been officially typed by the typing [email protected] I think that the typing team at enneagrammer is the world's best, most accurate Enneagram Enneagram typing team. And you can go check out their services at their website, enneagrammer.com you can also check out their membership area where they type celebrities in real time and make very fine, sharp, precise distinctions about how Enneagram types manifest behaviorally, and they do that in real time, so you can watch that on their website there. And I think that's it for me. Thank you so much for tuning in, and I will see you next time you
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