Anna Palumbo 0:00
Well, I couldn't solve locate, right? It was like, say, you're trying to tune into a radio station and there's just so much interference of other stations that you can't quite hear the song that's playing.
Josh Lavine 0:16
Welcome to another episode of what it's like to be you. I'm Josh Lavonne, your host, and today my guest is Anna Palumbo. Anna is a social self, Pres nine, wing 8937, tri fix. And this is, I'm catching Anna at a moment where she is going through a tremendous attachments metamorphosis, where she's a mom. She has a daughter who is a type six, and kind of has been going through an awakening realizing just how enmeshed and attached into her daughter she's been and doing the process of disentangling herself, emotionally, psychologically, somatically, from her daughter, and what that has meant in terms of the ability, the the space that she's been able to open up and reclaim inside herself, to access deeper wisdom and more centeredness and not be so psychologically anchored in the storm of the relationship and whatever kind of issues her daughter was presenting. And we kind of get it. We use that as a way to talk about how the nine positive outlook structure works. Like, you know when someone else that you're attached to is experiencing some darkness or pain and they're getting identified into it, and you are enmeshed with them. What happens? What is it? Is a nine? Like on the inside of a nine, it feels like there's something being lost with that identification with the darkness, some hope, some sense of possibilities, some sense of Yeah, the possibility that it's all good, and the reflex that nine has to get in there and kind of smooth things over, and how that can create a miss, an attunement miss. And something that's not talked about often enough in terms of the journey of reclaiming oneself as a nine, is that number nines are attachment types in the body sensor, and what that means is that they have, you know, when they're attaching, they're kind of numbing themselves to the world so that they can settle with what the world is providing and make themselves okay with it. And the journey of reclaiming oneself as a nine means re sensitizing to the world. And what that also means is that you become more sensitive as you reclaim sensation, you become more sensitive to the ways that the world is not actually meeting you or tuning to you that can be very painful. So there's that that's like one of the reasons nines resist actually kind of waking up is because they have to actually experience the pain that they've been numbing themselves to. That's number one. Two is the way that this, I think, is especially true as a social type. But it doesn't matter if you're even social blind. This is also true. It's like when you reclaim yourself as an attachment type and you start being congruent with yourself, when you start acting authentically and not adapting so much into other people, the relationships, like the status quo of your relationships that have depended on your adaptation to them, starts to get threatened, and so your relationship starts shifting, and you being a little more of a solid object, as opposed to kind of like a a an adaptable putty that can fit into whatever cracks they're giving you. People have to find new ways of relating to you, and it can cause friction in your relationships. And that is like probably the single hardest thing for attachment types to deal with as they move forward in their journey of reclaiming themselves. So before we get to the interview, I want to do one thing, which is plug our intro to the Enneagram course at The Enneagram School. You can go check it out on our website. It is now available for sale, and I want to tell you a little bit about it. It's nine hours of very carefully edited audio content in the form of kind of podcast form, and it's broken into 30 minute chunks that are very easily digestible. In my view, it's the most rigorous and accurate intro to the Enneagram program available online, and it's perfect for beginners if you are just starting an Enneagram. But it's also really good for advanced students to get a refresher on the basics and kind of see how all the major concepts fit together into a cohesive whole that makes the Enneagram. And so it also comes with a 37 page ebook that has graphics and visuals that make the content easier to follow and digest, and we also include some of the original content that we've come up with in the last few years, around the development of the centers during infancy, and some other just sharp insights that we have developed over the last few years and discoveries we've made in our kind of Enneagram investigations. So I really do think it's the best thing out there, and I invite you to go check it out at the Enneagram school.com. Okay, that's it. And without further ado, I am excited for you to learn about tide nine from my friend Anna. So I kind of would love to ask you, how would you like to start because. Yes, so much is going on with you. And originally, you reached out to me about doing a potential coaching session, and then we talked about doing this instead, or at least at first to do this. Yeah, but I know that you're kind of in the middle of a pretty big process, and so I'd love to just open the floor and just hear kind of the story, like, where what's happening, and, yeah, yeah, just take us through it.
Anna Palumbo 5:29
Sure. So I'll go back a year, because that's when I feel like things really started to come to the forefront for me in regards to attachment, yeah, and so I'm a mom. I'm a mom of three. My oldest is 16, and her and I are very, you know, you say, in tune with each other. It goes beyond that. So I had her in my early 20s, you know, I was still kind of forming as an adult myself. And, you know, I was a single mom, and had to learn how to be highly attuned to her, to, you know, keep her alive. And so as we grew up, there's always been this really powerful attachment with her. And as we got into the teenage years, that became challenging,
you know, her process, and you know what she the way she expresses herself is like it's very dynamic. It's much more so than
you know how I express myself. And you know there was a lot of CO regulation I was doing for her. She feels things quite intensely, and it was very challenging for me to parent effectively, because there was always this kind of desire to sort of like be the buffer for her, between her and the world, in a way, and so, you know, the years of 1213, 1415, I would get to this place where I would be having my own emotional experience while she's having her emotional experience. And it was just like this attachment entanglement, and I wanted to be able to show up for her in a more present way, and I wanted there to be some sort of separation between our processes. Because not only you know, was I suffering, but I could see that, you know, I wasn't really like speaking to the strongest part in her, and there was a way that it was preventing her from really developing and using those tools of self regulation and and Developing that like confidence in herself.
Josh Lavine 8:22
Do you have are are you willing to share, without breaching any boundaries, on behalf of your daughter, but just kind of like at a high level, some context, what was going on and what you were getting kind of enmeshed
Anna Palumbo 8:35
into? Yeah. So it could kind of unfold like my daughters of six. I'll just frame it like that. So there, there's often a problem. Okay, so you know me and my nine way would first kind of swoop in to minimize and do positive reframe. Okay, so this was not landing with her right. And if anything, it just kind of made her double down on like, No, this is a problem, yeah. And then, you know, I would kind of feel destabilized and and, you know, just double down on my positive reframe and trying to, you know, provide a solution or a perspective shift. And what she really needed from me, at times, was just somebody to, like, be in the muck with her and be like, No, that really fucking sucks. I'm sorry, like, you know, get down there, and I noticed that when I was able to drop into that, she didn't have to hold the charge of the problem as much a big component to her process is the witnessing. And so. That was hard for me to get into that. It felt kind of like, you know, against my reflex to kind of go there, but I knew that I had to change something because, you know, when I I was just missing the mark continually. And so there was this frustration between the two of us where, you know, she would sense that I was having emotions around her experience, and then she would take that on. And then it was just this, like, you know, yeah, so entanglement, the word I use a lot. And, you know, during those communications, I would just totally lose the thread of what I was trying to communicate really, you know, like, you know, where's the wisdom that I want to actually, you know, you know, where's the the container I want to provide for her, where's the wisdom without, just, like, trying to minimize it, because they don't want there to be conflict, right? Because my approach, essentially was to try to make things more pleasant for myself. You know, she was actually okay with she has a higher capacity or threshold for discomfort, emotional discomfort than I do. Okay, so, you know, I was, you know, as my awareness was kind of trickling in, and I'm feeling this sense of just continually missing the mark with my daughter, and knowing that it's also coming from place of just feeling like I was employing my own strategies that were lifelong, patterns of trying to kind of, you know, keep the conflict over there, Not fully get into it, minimize and positive reframe. So you know, in order to start making these shifts, it really required a slowing down for me. And you know, it started by being able to drop into that negative space with her and not offer anything. And you know, that was really hard to do at first, yeah, but when once I started seeing that if things would just relax between us, we weren't trying to hold these two polarities anymore, there was room for the conversation to just naturally kind of unfold. So, you know, of course, I'm faced with this like multiple times a day, because, you know, like once or twice we're in it all the time. And so one of the other parts of this is that it required, in order to not be like overly attuned to her, I had to self attune, because when I was in the space of really, like trying to
take a second, I'm kind of losing my train of thought. So as I approach this pattern with my daughter from a slightly different place, one in which I am being more present to her experience and more tapped into my own location, I there was this noticeable shift between us. And, you know, those are hard moments to get through. Initially, I had to do some deep breathing. I had to do some, you know, EFT tapping. I had to do a lot of kind of internal talk. And one of the mantras I use was like, I'm okay, even if you're not okay, yes, you know, yeah, yeah. So that just kind of helped create this, like, you know, started off with just kind of like, you know, inches of separation and it slowly, you know, we were able to kind of disentangle our emotional processes so we weren't quite so bound up. And in that process of really, kind of like anchoring into myself more in these moments, I'm able to. I'm not as afraid to hold boundaries with her. It's not like a reflexive boundary that comes up because I'm feeling like I've self abandoned and now trying to get back to myself. It's more of like an authentic space of, you know, sovereignty in a way. And you know, I had to really remind her, and you know, I was totally open and transparent with her about this whole thing. I said, you know, like you and I are in this tricky relating style that really worked for us at one point. And now, like we both need to do something different. I'm not too sure what it looks like, but the things that I'm going to be doing are, you know, giving you a bit more space and, like, control over your own emotional experience. I'm going to step back, and I really believe I know you have the tools to deal with this. And I know that you're strong and smart and wise, and I'm always here for you, but I'm not going to be like swooping in to try to, like, fix it for you. And you know, I recognize the ways that my swooping in were to kind of, like, dampen my own feelings of discomfort with, you know, conflict, and you know your emotional process, which is yours, not mine,
Josh Lavine 16:26
right, right?
Anna Palumbo 16:29
So, yeah, the shifts that started happening were one of the things I noticed immediately, was like this incredible return of energy to myself. And it was like I had taken a plug out of some thing else. I just, like, plugged it back into myself, because I was noticing that like, you know, even when I'm in the room with her, I'm no longer just like, you know, my senses aren't way out there trying to detect what's going on. Yeah, they're with me. And, you know, I might be able to observe that, you know, there's something going on for her, but I don't have to. It doesn't have to disrupt my, my inner workings. It doesn't have to like, trigger that sort of like attachment ping in the same way, you know, I still care. I'm still there, but I'm not just like, as activated, yeah. And for her, it's been helpful, because, you know, she sends out a lot of ping pings, and you know when it, when it doesn't get bounced back and kind of amplified, like it was happening, she is able to, sort of, I can see,
just move through it. Yeah, a little bit more. Yeah. It's kind of like her process requires a little bit less of that witnessing now, okay, and you know, for her and I also it has, like there's been, especially now, so we're kind of, you know, a year into it, there's been a real like settling and just our ability to really enjoy our interactions in a whole new way. Yeah, that Yeah. Isn't just as like you meshed.
Josh Lavine 18:37
That's wonderful. Yeah, yeah, man, there's a lot of threads in that. We just said there. What's coming up for me, just as a reflection, is that it's like being corn on you can get psychologically and somatically anchored in someone outside of you, and their state, in a certain way, becomes your state, like the porousness of the nine nervous system. It's like they're sort of just infusing you with their energy in a way that is like hard to with, without real conscious intention. You don't really have a boundary against it. You're just kind of, it's just happening. You know, that's a really interesting dynamic, like this, this entanglement. I love your word entanglement. I mean, it's like, now that you're in a new place of having some psychological, somatic distance. Do you have new language for what it was like when you were kind of more fused, or what? Yeah, just what, what that's like, you know, inside.
Anna Palumbo 19:54
So the way I would describe it is, it's like there's no clear end. First she or clear definition of where I end and she begins, yeah, yeah, sort of thing, right? So, yeah, yeah. It was really, like, foggy a lot, because that's good, yeah, I wasn't. I wasn't able to actually see her clearly because I was impressing upon the entire experience, like my own sense away, like mixing the two together, yeah. So, you know, when the fog started to clear, I had all these revelations. I was like, oh, you know, my daughter is, like, incredibly emotionally, like, aware, in a way that I wasn't at that age, you know, she is, like, one of the things I really admire about her is how, how well she was able to articulate and name difficult emotions, you know, like, I wasn't even doing that until I was, like, in my 30s. Yeah, sure. So you know that positive reframe has, it has a tendency to, like, you know, amputate a whole bunch of the experience and, yeah, so there was, you know, even though it was triggering, because it felt so negative, it was more ballistic in A lot of ways. So, and one of the things that, you know, I just, I feel like I've had so much to learn from her since we've been able to get a little bit of separation. And in that regard, of, yeah, being able to be okay with identifying with some of those Sure, more negative emotions, right,
Josh Lavine 21:45
right, right. Yeah, good.
Anna Palumbo 21:50
I was just gonna add like, you know, I think that this type of like fusion, I'm sure it's pretty common between two attachment
Josh Lavine 21:59
types, I think so.
Anna Palumbo 22:02
Yeah, it's just like, the they're just like, the hooks are there on both sides, yeah, you know, for contrast, My middle child is not an attachment type, and, like, we don't have any of these same dynamics at all. Fascinating. You know, he's very boundaried, and if anything, like, I'm fighting to, like, get in there and have influence in a while.
Josh Lavine 22:27
Yeah, it's
Anna Palumbo 22:29
just like, we're just never gonna have to have that issue. You know, it's, it's such a different experience. And, you know, I can understand how from the outside looking in, you know, my partner is an eight link seven, and you know, he could see this dynamic very clearly for many, many years, and could not understand how I couldn't just separate, right? Yeah, you know, you know, just, just, don't let it bother you. Like, what do you mean?
Josh Lavine 23:03
Amazing sex versus attachment worldviews? It's like, yeah, that's a profound relational assumption, like a difference in the way that you guys experience relationship, like being core eight versus core nine. Yeah.
Anna Palumbo 23:15
So it really did have to get to a point where, like, a personal crisis for me in being tethered to this. You know, at times I felt like roller coaster and somebody else, and it was motivated like by selfish reasons, because I just wanted to feel some distance and better and healthier,
Josh Lavine 23:37
because you were getting swept up in her emotional storm. Yeah, too much. Yeah,
Anna Palumbo 23:43
yeah, yeah, way too much, right, right, right.
Josh Lavine 23:49
Can you talk about the I mean, it would be sort of too glib or simple to say something like, Well, if you're fused with someone and they're going through something, then you're going through something automatically because of the nature of enmeshment. But yeah, I kind of want to get more texture on your inner experience of what that was like and and also what it's like now in just like, the difference between the
Anna Palumbo 24:14
two. Yeah, okay, well, I couldn't self locate, yeah, right. It was like, say, you're trying to tune into a radio station and there's just so much interference of other stations that you can't quite hear the song that's playing. That's an incredible analogy. Yeah, yeah. So now that I am able to have created some distance. It's like my my inner voice is clearer, and I'm no longer kind of taking so many things into consideration and trying to, you know, approach my communications with her, because I'm not sort. Of like preemptively trying to, you know, subconsciously manipulate or minimize what could be conflict, or, you know, a boundary that might not land well with her, or something like that. So there is a way where I'm operating from a more authentic place, yeah, and so when I'm interacting with her, I can actually hear the guidance and the voice that wants to come out and speak to her, and it's tapped into, like, a deeper place where I've actually been like, oh wow. There's, like, quite a bit of wisdom in there. Who would have known. And there was a way in which, before it felt like I was more in the shallows of communication, in a way, because I wasn't, I wasn't accessing that deeper place, because I was just in my own emotional process and cut off from that.
Josh Lavine 25:59
Yeah, yeah. I experienced this as a, as a triple attachment type myself. I kind of, I know when I'm when I'm operating from, like, the frothy inner place versus, like a, like a truly settled, like, from all the way down, like the channels all the way open, all the way down. Yeah, I
Anna Palumbo 26:21
was gonna say there's also a way in which, like, I would say her, her just being a six was particularly triggering for me, right? Because that's my stress line. So you know, what she verbalizes is normal communication is like my most stressed inner dialog,
Josh Lavine 26:40
right? Because my girlfriend's a six. It's, I'm very, I'm very familiar with the Yeah, yeah.
Anna Palumbo 26:47
So, and I find this, you know, I have quite a few sixes in my life, and, you know, it took me, you know, until recently, to be like, Oh, they're not actually that stressed out. That's just like, that would be my stress response. But that's just, you know, A Day in the Life for for the six and in verbalizing that that process, so to be able to kind of recognize that trigger and not let it get triggered, yeah. And then also, just like, really see the validity of, you know, where she's coming from, and, yeah, you know, she's a very wise human. She sees a lot. And, yeah, yeah,
Josh Lavine 27:32
a couple things. One is, you know, earlier in this conversation, when you kind of took a moment for yourself, you kind of noticed that you were on autopilot, you reconnected to yourself. Can you? Can you give words to that? Like, what is that for you?
Anna Palumbo 27:47
Yeah, yeah. And honestly, like, it feels like a calling back of of some sort of, like, energetic tentacle, okay, so instead of, like, reaching out there to try to perform, or like, stretch far out of what I'm just like authentically trying to generate, there's a way in which it just, yeah, I will get a little bit too out of myself and then call that back in and, yeah, as a moment of of self, location, right,
Josh Lavine 28:28
right? Is that something that you do like that? I'm gonna, I'm gonna use the blunt word like the tool of taking a pause, closing your eyes, breathing and coming back to yourself. Is that something that something that you do now in in normal relationship and conversation, um,
Anna Palumbo 28:49
I can do it without having to do those steps. But one of the things I've noticed is, you know, the way in which I have attempted to do that until becoming really conscious of that pattern feels kind of typically nine, wing eight, which is kind of like a shutdown, yeah, okay, yeah, to shut down the external stimuli and self locate by just like a lack of interference. So what that looks like for other people is, you know, like, I'm energetically here, you know, or physically here, but like, there's not a lot coming out of me, right? And, you know, can come off as, like, cold with other people, yeah, you know, withdrawn, yeah, yeah, the wall and, you know, oh, man, like, I can have that wallet for a really long time.
Josh Lavine 29:47
Yeah. How long are we talking like,
Anna Palumbo 29:50
like, days. It depends on how I guess, how lost I'm feeling, in a sense, you know. Went through a crisis about seven years ago, and I had that wall up for like six months.
Josh Lavine 30:06
Yeah.
Anna Palumbo 30:08
So there are other ways that I can access that, you know, actually, like music and art are like a quick sort of like side door into what feels like self location. For me, that makes sense, yeah. But what I notice is like, you know, I noticed that locked in feeling, and it does just thaw. It's a process of, like, having a really, you know, kind of strong containment. And what it feels like to me is, like, I use the term like, aggressive peace, where it's just like, it's good try trying to, like, like, keep the calm inner waters by keeping everything else out. And this was something I've done my whole life. You know, my earliest memories of growing up in a busy house are of being able to find my sense of self through like, yeah, the removing of external influences, whether that was like making a fort somewhere in the living room and, you know, having my own physical space, or, you know, going and drawing to have shot myself into my imaginary world, it has taken many different forms, but now as an adult, and you know, needing to be more on for the world, not having time to go build a fort my living room, you know it's those moments of just really allowing myself to be still. And you know, in that stillness, I can hear my own voice, I can feel my own center, and I do always feel a strong sense of center and a strong sense of home, which feels like it lives like deep in my belly.
Josh Lavine 32:22
Okay, a couple things just I want to kind of reflect and just to get my own clarity about something, it's like, because you're anchoring for your own sense of stability to an inner place as opposed to an outer place, you're able to move through outer instability in a way that feels more strong and connected to yourself, yeah, and and to withstand instability in the outer world because of that. So I have a kind of lingering curiosity about something just like I just want to know. I'm going to lay this out in a couple ways. So here's my my lingering curiosity is about what is what is it that's so hard on the inside of being a nine to be with someone when they're, like, really going through it, or, like, when they're in the middle of, like, a deep emotional reaction to something like, for example, your daughter, yeah,
Anna Palumbo 33:23
okay. Well, I mean, it's an interesting thing, because when I look through my history of my life, I have definitely not, like, avoided going into that zone with people. And I have often chosen partners and friends who are very intense personalities and who, yeah, and for me, I guess I have seen it as, like the attachment challenge of getting into that space, remaining attached, even though it's uncomfortable so but you know, like now, as I'm able to see that you know that involved a lot of self suffering And dissociation to be able to maintain. There is something for me that feels different now when I am self anchored, because there is like, there's like, no threat anymore, right? Yeah, so before it was kind of like I uh, feeling like I could just possibly get lost in somebody else's energy, because there was like, you know, where was I and all of it, I felt like I was existing kind of like in the space between, as opposed to like in myself. Yeah. Yeah, and, you know, and then I would, you know, counteract that with, you know, shutting in at times when it was overwhelming to try to self locate, and then, you know, like, edging back out. So now I actually look forward to moments of like intensity and conflict. In a way, there's a bit of excitement there for me, because I don't feel like I'm gonna be lost in the system. Yeah. So it feels new, and that's kind of exciting. And, you know, I one of the things I really love about myself is like being able to show up for friends and family members when they're going through hard things, like I don't, I don't. My first instinct isn't to try to avoid it, because I I know that I can be there and be present in a different way. Does that answer your question?
Josh Lavine 36:11
Almost like so and I'll reveal a little bit of myself. So my mom is a non young aide. And you know, one of the things that I wonder about is like, and, you know, disclaimer, my mom is an amazing mom, and she's been, she's been great in many ways, and also, like, some of what you're describing in terms of this and enmeshment dynamic is familiar to me as your kid, and when I've gone through moments Of like, like, my deepest darkness. It's been really hard for her, you know, and the kind of swooping into positive reframe or remind me that I'm really valuable or that I but, you know, why are you so doubting yourself? You did this amazing thing, and you're and it's like, I, what I'm really craving is just an attunement and an acceptance of the place I'm at, and that would actually help my own process to move forward into the positive space that she was trying to kind of lift me into. You know what I'm saying? Totally and, and so that's a that's a familiar kind of miss to me from the from the other person's point of view, yeah, but I guess I'm, I mean, is it as simple as, you know, when you're when you're entangled with someone and they're going through a hard time, it feels like your hard time, and the it's just, it's just really painful to bear as A nine because, or how would you put it?
Anna Palumbo 37:42
Yeah, I mean, kind of, but there is also a way in which, like, it almost to me, feels like there's something that's going to be lost if we get too associated or identified with, like, the pain, yeah, or something, it feels like there's always got to be, like, some sort of silver lining on it, right? And but that is a way in which, like, you know, I feel like with nine wing eight, we can just be, like, stubbornly not seeing something like, you know, a will fill, not like, non acknowledgement of like, the true picture that's there, yeah, and looking at this tiny one little sliver of like, oh, there's a silver lining. And then just like, inflating that to be more than what it is. And in a way, it almost feels like it's trying to balance what is going on with the other person, so that there's like, yeah, maybe, like, a more sense of, like, even keel, right? So if somebody's in a real negative, intense state, I'm going to bring a more intense positive state to try to neutralize it. It feels like it more of a like, neutralizing type of thing that I'm trying to do, as opposed to, like, even necessarily, like, inspire somebody, or, you know, like, lift them out of their their doldrums. It just feels like I'm trying to, like, neutralize the fire, because that's not peaceful, yeah,
Josh Lavine 39:22
yeah, yeah. And that thing that would be lost if you didn't do that, what is that?
Anna Palumbo 39:32
Yeah, I guess maybe that is just like it feels like a delight at the end of the tunnel. Yeah. Just just wanting to, kind of, like, give an exit for somebody in their, you know, whatever they're feeling, I guess you know, trying to, like, remember that they don't need to over identify with. Is one thing that there is, there is more available,
Josh Lavine 40:05
yeah, I guess a lot like losing a sense of the possibility of hope, or, yeah,
Anna Palumbo 40:12
hopeful outline, right, yeah, I
Josh Lavine 40:14
guess yeah, there is, yeah, right, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's fascinating, yeah. Yeah.
Anna Palumbo 40:21
And, you know, it might be more of like, my hope for that person, whether they need that hope, right? It's like, Yeah, but, and
Josh Lavine 40:30
that's, that's a pretty interesting thing too, because in that state of entanglement, it's very easy to confuse what you hope for the person versus their hope for themselves, or whatever that you know that? Yeah, wow. Okay, yeah. So what else happened? What's, what's the rest of the story? Or what else is going on?
Anna Palumbo 40:53
Yeah. So one thing that I'm noticing in this, you know, new pattern that I'm in is that when there's more of it feels now like there's more of myself involved in my communications. Yeah, and so I've been feeling and experiencing rejection on a deeper level, because I'm no longer kind of, you know, sending myself out there and these sort of fractured ways of communicating
Josh Lavine 41:32
when you say rejection, like receiving rejection from outside. Are you talking about the object, your own object relation
Anna Palumbo 41:39
of rejection? No, I'm talking about like, okay, so and wanting to show up authentically, I am treading into conversations and places where I know that there could be potential conflict between my true expression and how that's going to land for the other person. Yeah, so when I get into those areas and I'm not accepted, or I'm not with something that, you know, it could be a misunderstanding, or it could be Yeah, a complex the rejection feels more real to me because it's actually like more of me that I'm putting yes
Josh Lavine 42:30
there. I totally get that Yes. I totally get that
Anna Palumbo 42:34
Yeah. So there's a way in which I'm really kind of picking up on markers of safety in conversations in a different way. Yeah, so you know, somebody could say to me, you know, like you're safe to express yourself. You know, no judgment here. But if there is a mismatch between their energy and their words, it's like my fight or flight response is like coming online, and I'm kind of seeing them as a threat, you know, and and then that heart piece, that more authentic piece, kind of walks back, yeah, so I don't remember feeling as attuned to that before, because they just, like, there wasn't as much of an investment on my part
Josh Lavine 43:28
because you were, because you were, you were already shut down or shut off in some or numb in some way. So their sensitivity to you is less important. Totally.
Anna Palumbo 43:38
Yeah, yeah. So, yeah, this has been challenging. There have been, you know, a couple of relationships that have been are being really tested by it, that I've noticed that, you know, the relationship, the functionality of it, has really depended on me maintaining attachments, or, you know, me being able to kind of compromise myself in a way, yeah, yeah.
Josh Lavine 44:22
That is, in many ways, the it's, I think it's like the hurdle. It's like, there's a lot of hurdles to an attachment type, kind of returning to themselves, but I think that's the one, because it's like, when you come home to yourself and you start actually when you're when you start matching your outside to your inside, and you start actually living from that inner place in a congruent way. It it does sort of upend and threaten a lot of the ways that you've had relationships with people, especially the people that are the closest to because the people that you've. Have been closely in relationship with are used to you being in a certain malleable state, and then when you solidify, and they're like, Wait, where is your adaptability going? I thought you were this. I thought you were more putty than this, you know? I thought you were more flexible totally. And then you start not being that. And it's like, Whoa. What's going on? Yeah, yeah,
Anna Palumbo 45:22
yeah. That's a real thing. And it's just, you know, it's kind of been, like, I've been taking stock of a lot of different areas of my life, and like it, there's kind of like, this process of weighing. Like, not Yeah, like wing, Does this match in the inner sense of something that I actually want to align with, and a lot of things actually don't match. And so, you know, I've had to kind of let go of my identity as, like, a really go with the flow, easy going person, and realize that I have strongly formed preferences on things, right? And, yeah, it feels like I come up against that edge of like workability through things. Sometimes it definitely feels like there are more complex, like, in a way. So, you know, that is challenging. And I noticed that, you know, like as Naomi, I can have a certain bluntness that can sort of shut down communications, in a way, yeah, so to kind of get into the zones where you need to work through something from a Place of self, location without resorting to attachment. It the sometimes I'm just like, at a loss, because I'm not I don't know where the solution is, but I'm learning to be okay with there not needing to be a solution necessarily, right? It feels like a lot of my relationships are in a sort of liminal space right now and feeling into what's next, because I have changed in a sort of fundamental way, and the relationship will need to change as well. Yeah.
Josh Lavine 47:39
Are you willing to share a specific example?
Anna Palumbo 47:44
Yeah, okay, so this has come up quite a bit in my primary relationship, which was like a marriage type relationship, been together for 13 years, and, you know, we have a little jokey saying between us that, like, I'll eventually get on board with anything
Josh Lavine 48:10
right wing seven. Right? He's an eight.
Anna Palumbo 48:13
Wing seven, yeah. And, you know, he's a very bold personality, lots of ideas, lots of forward momentum, lots of taking on projects and quick pivots in in life, that sort of thing. You know, yeah, yeah. It's not uncommon to come home and you know, there's some new business venture or trajectory that has taken place during the day and and that sort of thing. So in a lot of ways, I felt like the supportive role in that relationship and it, you know, there have been many moments of adaptation and what felt like compromise, or, you know, me coming up against the edge of like, well, I'm not sure I'm on board for that, But okay, and learning how to do that reconciliation inwardly as opposed to outwardly. So like, whatever needs to shift, I'll shift it within me, as opposed to, like, trying to shift the situation.
Josh Lavine 49:31
I'll be the one to adapt. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So
Anna Palumbo 49:36
when we reach these sticky points now with differences of views. I mean, he's, he's a bit of verbal processor, so we converse a lot. Um, it's, yeah, we butt heads. There's a budding heads and, you know, there's a little bit of, like overlap with those eight energies out. Um, yeah, and I Yeah, we often, like, you know, in this place right now, it's kind of hard to to work through. We come up against the edge of not agreeing on something, and then both just kind of let it be for a little bit, and then when we try to re approach, it kind of like the pattern emerges again. So I'm not exactly sure how that's going to pan out for us. Yeah, but I definitely feel like I feel totally okay with the complex, which is kind of a new thing for me. That's
Josh Lavine 50:53
remarkable, yeah, yeah.
Anna Palumbo 50:54
And there's a way in which, like, you know, I can find, and I'm also head last, right? So, like I, I process stuff on it much slower speed. And eight wing seven is it can be really fast energy. And, you know, and there's a way in which I can get really disoriented and in the conversations, and then just kind of in the end, I'm like, Okay, I'm just like, sold on the idea great, like, whatever,
because it feels like it takes a lot of energy to just kind of, like hold a polarity there. And you know, my partner is a great talker. He's very charismatic. He's very convincing.
So now, kind of like tapped into this more steady spot in myself there, I don't necessarily feel like I have to be on the same page with him, with, you know, ideas or plans or that sort of thing. And you know, what that looks like is, you know, I'll just be like, Well, I'm just not on board with that. And again, where I just don't feel that way, I feel this way, you know, and I'm really kind of learning to be okay with not needing to back it up with a bunch of justifications. There you go. That's yeah, yeah, because I don't feel like it's really up for discussion as much, which I think is frustrating for my partner, because he kind of wants to get into it and try to, you know, find resolve. But I feel like if I start to get into the discussions, then I might get more into, like, the froth, and farther away from my location, in a sense, yeah,
Josh Lavine 52:52
there's also, I'll just speaking as a head last person myself who's gone on a somewhat similar journey to what you're describing, in terms of coming home to myself and being able to stay in conflict is, um, you know, when you start explaining yourself, this how I experience it. If someone wants me to explain my point of view, it feels like I'm exposing a sort of a thing that can then be used against me in a certain way, like, Well, you said these reasons, but here's why, those are invalid, you know, to someone who's really good at re at explaining your explanations away, yeah, and it's like, no, there's just a felt sense of, this is my preference, and it doesn't have to have an explanation behind it. It feel that feels like kind of a sacred loyalty to self.
Anna Palumbo 53:41
Totally, yeah, you explain that very well for sure. Yeah, yeah. So, I mean, it's been an interesting gift, in a way, because in those moments like, I have learned how to, like, hold myself in a different way. Yeah, and it's, it feels like a doubling down on self, and if anything is sort of just like strengthen that connection more. Yeah, and yeah, it definitely feels like Yeah. They just the the old way of relating isn't even really available to me. I feel into it sometimes, of like, okay, well, what would be required of me to, like, get on board with this, or, you know, maintain and connection for the sake of attachment. And it just, it doesn't. It feels violent. Yeah, because these new muscles are now working, and like, it would require such a such a severing within that actually feels like heartache. And yeah, for those reasons, like, it's not an option. So.
Josh Lavine 55:00
Yeah, man, so much of what you're saying resonates with me personally. And the I think I said this when I interviewed Alexander, actually was, there's this way. It's like, once you've as an attachment type, once you've as an adult, like, clicked in to this loyalty to self place, and you've tasted it, and you know what that's like, and you know what it's like not to abandon yourself, then it's like that becomes the most important thing to you, and it's just like, Yeah, I just, I get, I get, how strong that loyalty to self is, and how kind of uncompromisable it is. And, yeah, the other thing that was coming up for me was about this, this piece about rejection and your sensitivity now to where that whether someone else is being psychologically safe for you is it's like the original rejection wound, you know, thinking of like a like an early, early baby. It's like, I want mom to smile on me and she's not smiling at me. And so I just decide to accept a reality in which that's not available at all, and it and it and so I cut off the part of myself that needs it, and I lose, essentially, the hope that it exists. But then when you kind of recover that hope, you know, it's like, Wait, actually, no, I could get this, yeah, and I'm giving it to myself. I'm not I'm no longer rejecting that part of myself, and I'm giving it to myself, and now I'm looking for people who know how to give that to me too, because it's like, it is available. It's just not everywhere, you know, yeah, but, like, some people know how and so, yeah, that, that whole thing has a lot of heat for me, actually, just personally, speaking, in this, in, like, this moment in my life. But yeah, I'm curious if that resonates with you the way I just frame that,
Anna Palumbo 57:01
yeah, yeah, for sure. And you know, like as a body type, I feel like I pick up all of that in a real, like, sensation type of way, right, impressionistic, and I, I just know I for me, it also it feels like my heart detecting their heart, in a way, because I feel like if the heart isn't included in the presence, then my heart's not going to land. It's, you know. So, you know, I feel like I'm encountering it, this particular dynamic with heart loss. People often, yeah, it is an interesting thing to describe to somebody who, you know, believes that they are providing safety. But if there is, there just some sort of little undercurrent of like, I can still feel judgment present here, I can feel like you're ready to respond, and you're like, you know, already there's like your energy is filling the space, you know. I just want to pull back, and I have, I have pushed through that in the early months of exploring this way of relating, and it was incredibly painful to feel like I share deep parts of myself, and you know, it wasn't received in a careful way. Yeah,
Josh Lavine 58:38
I had a friend. So I have a friend, a very good friend, who's an eight social self, Pres eight with a nine wing. And something she said to me was that I think she might have learned this from her therapist too, but just that, as she started getting more comfortable sharing of herself in a more vulnerable way, her therapist said something like, your vulnerability is valuable and you don't have to give it to everyone you know. You get to, you get to choose who you give it to. And so there's this, I mean, my experience of this is like, I want, I want people to know who I really am. I want to share of myself with people. And the relationships that are the most nourishing and enduring for me are the ones that I feel like I can I feel like there's a space for me to share everything you know, and they can know my whole history, everything that I feel right now. Just there's a I don't have to restrict myself in any kind of way. And there's been a really interesting, I don't know kind of balance for just put it as a question for me. And I'm wondering if you are in this question too. It's like, on the one hand, there's me sensing whether a person has the capacity to receive what I me, you know. And then there's also. So like my own loyalty to self project, which is sharing of myself and revealing myself whether or not the container is present without the precondition being met. You know, that's a kind of like dilemma that I find myself navigating a lot. Is like I want to choose to show up authentically, even if the container is not present. But then I also have to calibrate. And then as an attachment type, I'm like, Wait, am I just calibrating to, like, attach to this person? Or is it like, yeah, am I calibrating? Because that's just, it's just, it's just the wise thing to do in this moment, not to share this thing to this person, you know?
Anna Palumbo 1:00:37
So yeah. I mean, it feels to me, like a moment to moment practice of discernment, sure, right? Like I feel like I'm just, instead of, kind of just auto piloting through the world on attachment. It's like at every junction is a choice of attach. Do you remain authentic? There you go. Yeah. Yeah, yeah,
Josh Lavine 1:01:02
yeah. I guess that's, that's it, right? There is maybe the answer to my question, which is, like, it's that it's having loyalty to the having the choice be available to you is the kind of the triumph, you know,
Anna Palumbo 1:01:14
yeah. And I think almost, it's, like, more important than what you do with that choice is the fact that you remember that there is a choice,
Josh Lavine 1:01:21
right, right, right, yeah, yeah, so, so. Where are you now?
Anna Palumbo 1:01:35
Things are still settling for me. I feel like you know, there has been a significant rewiring internally, and I everything looks different. So, you know, the life that I have been waking up and participating in has different options available to me now, and I'm taking it really moment by moment, because I feel like it's hard to see too far down the road. Yeah. And one of the things that I realize is, you know, as you were saying, like it is really important for me to find and just treasure the attachment connections, the the friendships and relationships I have that I can show up fully in those are, like, the juiciest parts of my life right now. Yeah, and I don't feel like there is any threat that I'm going to kind of like lose this new way of relating, but I may lose things that don't align now, right?
Josh Lavine 1:03:07
Yeah, God, isn't that amazing? That's a really radical shift.
Anna Palumbo 1:03:13
Yeah, yeah, I
Josh Lavine 1:03:15
was thinking too a little bit about and this could be a whole thing to get into. So I'll just keep this short, but like the lines from nine to three and six where, like, when nines are in a sort of diffuse interstate, they're kind of not, not one, honoring themselves, or two, kind of like seeing reality. And it's like in in vivid 4k, you know, texture, yeah. And it feels like both lines are kind of happening for you now. It's like you're awake, you know, to your reality in like, the high side of six way, and then the moving to the high side of three is like honoring yourself and and seeing yourself and being becoming authentic. And I don't think a lot of nines get scared of the idea of integrating the three. They sort of think about it in a way that is actually more consistent with, like the lower side of three, which is like, get myself there, you know. But it's really not that. It's kind of like when you start being loyal to yourself, there's just an inner blossoming that starts to happen, and the shine starts from within. So
Anna Palumbo 1:04:18
totally. So there's been something I've been reflecting on with that, which is like that feels like really new territory for me. And, you know, as a child, I always felt like my inner reality was the real world and the outer reality was like something I tolerated interesting. Yeah. So there's a way of like, now allowing those to match create some sort of like, yeah, it's like, there's a reconciliation there where, like, the doorway is open. Both can happen. Like, who would have thought? Not me. I always tried to kind of, like, keep those very separate, because the inner reality. Reality felt so sacred to me that it wasn't. It was to be protected and not shared,
Josh Lavine 1:05:07
right? Yeah, well, actually, that's really fascinating because,
yeah, I mean, that's actually pretty profound. What you just said, the sense of the inner so the inner reality is more real, but also there's like an unconscious fear that if it gets exposed to, if it gets exposed to what external gaze or something that could potentially threaten it, it would get washed out. It would it's somehow the threat of exposure is, like existential and so and so. You know, conveniently, you have this eight wing that can kind of like put up a wall against the world to protect that inner, inner world, and now opening it up and actually revealing it and and risking exposure allows for more kind of outer world, inner world integration. And you get to actually get cultivate, like the reference experience is that your inner world has sturdiness to exist out here, yeah,
Anna Palumbo 1:06:13
yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly, yeah. It doesn't. It doesn't need that kind of protection. It's actually, yeah, it's stronger in a way, when it can be out there.
Josh Lavine 1:06:31
I can't help myself but notice the parallel to your daughter there, and how it's kind of like the way you're treating your inner world now is the same way that you have relationship with her,
Anna Palumbo 1:06:48
yeah, yeah, it's true, yeah, yeah. And I think that there's also like, just, like, a real, like, it's been a sense of really relaxing with all of this,
because I'm realizing how much energy it takes to keep those worlds separate, and, you know, to exist in, like, reflexive attachment that you know, I feel like, oh, I can just, I can just be me. There is, there is some sort of, yeah, like, deep inner peace, which is different than the piece that I'm trying to aggressively Preserve at times, right? You know, yeah, yeah.
Josh Lavine 1:07:45
So how do you feel now, and what has this been like for
Anna Palumbo 1:07:49
you? Um, yeah, I feel I feel good, good.
Yeah, I think sometimes I lack the language to describe some of these abstract concepts. So it helps to, you know, talk, to be able to even understand for myself, because I'm just going through it in an experiential way, right? But, yeah, that process is also valuable for me,
Josh Lavine 1:08:23
sure. Yeah, it's interesting being body first and mind last, to summon yourself to put words to that whole pre verbal experience. Yeah, yeah, well, experience is extremely articulate, so I don't think there's anything to worry about there. So yeah, you're welcome. Yeah, that's
Anna Palumbo 1:08:44
good. No, that's good. I Yeah, I've been, there's been a lot to come out for me. I've been journaling a lot. I've been creating a lot of music. There's just like, there's a way in which there these shifts, just have a lot to say. So, yeah, it's nice to be able to put that out there.
Josh Lavine 1:09:15
I'll just share a metaphor that came to me like, you know, if let's say that you're you have, like, a gymnasium that's being air conditioned, and outside is very different temperature. You know, you open the door, but it takes a while for the kind of outside and inside airs to kind of equilibrate, yeah, you know, there's something moving through the doorway, but it's not, it's like, doesn't happen immediately. There's a
Anna Palumbo 1:09:40
process, yeah? So, yeah.
Josh Lavine 1:09:46
Well, thank you for doing this and for sharing. You're welcome yourself during this, during this moment of your life, and I know that it's still ongoing and and yeah, that you're kind of mid process with a lot of this stuff. And I. You know, I would say, like, my experience of you is that you have this, like two words are coming, like an elegance and a dignity. It just feels very like in your spine the whole thing, like there's a sturdiness. So, you know, I salute you, and thanks, Josh, yeah, no, it's really a pleasure. It's a pleasure to see you in the space.
Anna Palumbo 1:10:25
Thank you. Well, it was, you know, the attachment group was so incredibly valuable that was just a really wonderful alignment in the timeline of things for me to be able to drop into that space and gain a little bit more language and framework for the things that I was experiencing. Sure,
Josh Lavine 1:10:47
cool. Well, all right, thank you so much. You're welcome. Thank you so much for tuning into my conversation with Anna. I think Anna is so wise and dignified and grounded, and I learned a lot from this conversation, and I hope you did too. If you like this show and these episodes, then please click the like button or hit subscribe. If you're watching on YouTube or if you're listening to this as a podcast, then you can leave up to a five star review and also leave some comments. Those are zero cost, very effective ways to support me and my work and what we do here on the show and at The Enneagram School. I really appreciate that. If you would like to check us out and learn more about what we do at The Enneagram School, you can go to the Enneagram school.com we have an intro course that I blabbed about in the beginning of this show that we are about to release. And I'm really, really excited about it. I'm very proud of it, and I think it's really great. So if you want to learn from the ground up. What is the Enneagram how is it structured? What are the nine types? How can you get your head around the whole thing? Then this is a program for you. You can check it out at the Enneagram school.com Also, when you sign up for our email list, you will also receive updates about what we're going to do next year. We're starting to set our schedule for next year, for 2025 and something that we're about to start doing is doing in person workshops and retreats, which we're really excited about. We're going to offer our first ever in person retreat as The Enneagram School, probably targeting the march range, probably somewhere in New York. Details, TBD, but if you want to learn more about that, go to the Enneagram school.com get on my email list, and you will find those updates. Finally, if you think that you are a good candidate to be interviewed on the show, I'd love to hear from you. I'm particularly looking for type sixes and types of one and type one. So if you're one of those two types, let me know. But always looking for hexad types, really just anybody and all the types, you know, if you have high resolution interiority, if you're really good at self reflecting, if you're familiar with you're familiar with the Enneagram and can do a deep conversation like this, then I'd like to hear from you. Preference goes to people who have been officially typed by the [email protected] I think that the [email protected] is the world's most accurate, best typing service. And you can also check out, if you go their website, you can check out kind of their methods, and also you can watch them type celebrities in real time with their subscription service. Oh, and actually, I want to say I'm also looking for people who are of rarer instinctual stackings to interview. So I've interviewed a lot of people who are social, self preservation and self pro social, but I'm also interested in interviewing people who are social, blind and self preservation blind. So if you're one of those, please don't hesitate to reach out. And I think that's it for me. Thank you so much for listening, and I'll see you next time
Unknown Speaker 1:13:32
you
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