Mariona 0:00
I want to go beyond that and
and create. It feels like right now, pure creation is very meaningful.
why should you not bite into the apple that life is offering you?
Josh Lavine 0:37
Welcome to another episode of what it's like to be you. I'm Josh Levine, your host, and today my guest is Mariana, who is a sexual, social 911 with 973, tri fix. This conversation happened in two phases. The first phase I am going to call the dispersed phase, and the second phase I'll call the focused phase.
different elements of her past, and how she's processed things. But as we entered into the interview itself, there was a lot of swirling psychological energy, and just speaking for myself, personally, it was I found it difficult to find a specific point of entry into the conversation, like what story to focus on, to start pulling themes out. And everything was very big and vast and kind of chaotically linked together. And so what we kind of talked about was how that itself is part of money on this type structure. So 973
But second phase of the conversation started when we kind of noticed that we were in that swirling energy. We kind of we talked about it and understood that that was kind of what was happening, and that what was happening in the conversation was sort of a microcosm for how she experiences her life. And then Mariana did a very powerful thing where she settled herself in the middle of the conversation, and the Mariana that showed up after that was very different from the Mariana that showed up before it. It was as if all of her dispersion was gone, and what was left was this very solid, consolidated, firm, clear presence. And so the dynamic that emerged then between me and Mariana was flavored with her presence as a sexual, social type, and she brought a kind of creative, intimate, seductive energy. And it wasn't necessarily seduction directed at me in a trying to seduce me kind of way, but more of like an invitational, celebratory, kind of oozing intimate quality that is just characteristic of sexual social nine. That's what you have in store for you. Before we get to the conversation, I want to make one plug, which is that at The Enneagram School, John Locke and I have finished our intro course, first ever intro course, and it is now available for purchase so you can go to the Enneagram school.com
and check out our intro. Course, it's, I'm really proud of it. It's a nine hour long, carefully edited value, dense audio program broken into 30 minute chunks that takes you all through the foundational concepts you need to understand what a type is, and then also gives nine deep dives into each of the types. And so it's, it's just, I'm really proud of it. It's great. And it also has a 37 page ebook that makes the content easier to digest. So check that out at the Enneagram school.com and without further ado, I'm very excited for you to learn from my friend Mariana. Is it? Is it okay? If I start with asking you what it was like to set up for this as a self press plan, title,
Mariona 4:09
and messy. Yeah, it was the bed on the side of here was full of clothes this morning. And it's like, there's always so much stuff around that doesn't bother me, but it also bothers me a lot, because then I cannot think clearly. So I really wanted this space to be tidy, like less stuff around, less chaos and, and also beautiful, like I have some lights around here, some kennels and and some coziness and like it was never like the exact setting. So we took how much time, 20 minutes, half an hour, to just set it up. Well,
Josh Lavine 4:54
yeah, I was just telling you I have to get this on the recording, because I was telling you right before. Recording that every time I've interviewed a self pressed blind type, there's been something like this. There's been there's been some microphone thing, or some major tech or just the setup isn't quite right, and or some malfunction, we have to work through it.
Mariona 5:15
Yeah, I know. Imagine my whole life,
Josh Lavine 5:21
but here we are. Here we are, yeah, and how are you feeling now?
Mariona 5:29
I'm feeling nervous, like there's there's tension in my chest and like my rib cage, also excited, like an unknown experience, but I'm willing to dig into it with you. How are you?
Josh Lavine 5:54
I feel great. I feel very relaxed, and I'm excited to get into this. We've been talking about doing this interview for a while, and my sense, and you tell me, if I'm right, is that there's, there was some anticipation and some nerves around this moment of doing this, because this, doing this interview means something to you in terms of your process and transformation, or a kind of consolidation of a place that you've arrived to in yourself, or something like that. Yes, yeah, yes. Okay, exactly,
Mariona 6:29
yeah. So let's,
Josh Lavine 6:30
let's get into that. What's, what's, what's, what is that for you?
Mariona 6:39
What comes up is that my process means a lot to me, and sharing it with people is very precious to me, because I'm at a moment where I really feel I am my own Home. But I come from a lot of turmoil, and being able to transform all of that has saved my life and and I'm also quite identified with my process, so it's very dear to me.
Think of part of my ego is wrapped around that, but I love it, and I want to sound good, I want to look good, I want to,
I guess, be seen in my complexity, in my wholeness. And so there's a tension around being able to explain myself, my inner world, in a way that people will understand, but also will be how to say, will be faithful or will Be honest, true. Will feel, will feel good to me,
Josh Lavine 8:04
yeah, and you have really got, there's kind of like a before and after, I think that you were describing, and I think there's a story here, right? Like there's a place that you started from, and a place that you have arrived to, or that you're going and so can you paint that arc, that journey?
Mariona 8:26
I think, I think I know where to start, like in the present. Okay, I'm pretty exhausted, okay? And I have a lot of tension in my body and like the trauma that I've been going through in the past years,
Josh Lavine 8:51
the
Mariona 8:53
stress how I learned to treat myself, I've had to look at that and take responsibility for it, to be able to change it. There are a lot of like core messages and core wounds that I think kept me in hyper alertness. So it is painful to me to know that in any situation there could be something triggering, and that I'm always looking around me for the most unsafe element and keeping track of that at all moment, moments like if there are sounds in the room, People talking, even at work, for example, there are conversations going on that don't concern me, but my brain is tuned into that, and it wants to remember what what's going on. So even at night, before bed, I am remembering that my brain is bringing it back as if, like you have to keep all this information you have to you. Like, as if the world is an unsafe place, because I think my parents felt that there was a lot of chaos at home. It was very unpredictable, and I was always like walking on eggshells around my parents and so around everyone in the world, and I felt really fragile, like I didn't know what boundaries were. I've had to kind of like, learn to take care of me and learn to be an adult. There was a lot of enmeshment in my house so I I didn't have a real sense of self. I've had to build it and discover it in my 20s. Like, what do I like to do? Who do I want to do it with? What's my purpose? What things do I not like? What things do I allow into my life? How much? When do I have enough like these things I've explored, and I feel much stronger now, but the level of neuroticism has always been high, so like I have, I guess, a lot of sensitivity and feeling intense emotions, like when the I was triggered a lot In the past, and almost all the time. The thing with the sexual and social is that learning boundaries, developing autonomy, has helped me, and I do see myself as a kid many times that hasn't grown up much, and I have a lot of a lot of compassion for myself that has helped me a lot, I would say, that has been super healing to be with me through everything, and to enjoy being with me, to validate my pain. I even wrote it in the wall of my kitchen, el mother los important in Catalan. Catalan is my mother tongue. It means my pain or my grief. I don't know my suffering is important because it wasn't or so I felt so I perceived in my childhood and being a container for myself, something I've learned, but before I've been able to do that life was just unsafety, and it's as if I had to learn human relationships again from scratch, like one friend at a time, months between every time I would see that person again, yeah, self regulation techniques and all of these things, breathing. Well, we can talk about all of this. Like, what are you particularly interested in? Because I have lots of tools. I've learned that right now make my life really good and really interesting. But I think the baseline is this, and at any moment, sometimes I'm walking, or it's a good day, and I'm stopping to breathe and to meditate, and I get tears, because the base is always a fragility. And even in this interview with you, if we stop and you were telling me, how do you feel, probably I would want a hug, like physical contact is something that I need a lot, and I always get in contact with that. The difference probably is that now I can ask for it, but in the past, I would stay in in the wound and even cry, because in my household, how is this like? I don't know if this word is correct, because I don't use English a lot to speak about these things. In my family, my mother cried every day, and it felt like I had to be the mother, emotionally, her mother and I've also brought that, and she kind of cried in private. So whenever something has been happening in my life that affected me, I always cried in my room, but would never show it right now I can like I have no problem showing this to people. And going to them for support, but, um, I I've seen it recently, and it's been a discovery that the way of crying intensively, intensely of my mother and even of myself, it's it's abandoning me. It's like this motion is intense, and it's taking me, and I'm going with it, and I'm crying and crying, and it's like opening the wound and more wound and feeling it and going into it. And almost like feeling some, I don't know, numbness, or like some ants on the back of my head, and kind of my cranium closing up on me and getting a very dizzy sensation of like, blackness and even like, I don't know how to describe it. And recently, with my therapist, I'm learning because crying is my favorite emotional release thing. I do it often. I love it. It's, I think people should do workouts in in crying as well, because it you accumulate inside. Sometimes you don't know you have it. But if you schedule it or like you do it regularly, it doesn't really actually build up so much. And when it's in therapy, and it's always something that's important for me, that makes me feel and want to release. It's as if, like I ground myself in the present, like feeling that the support, like in the chair, in the legs in the floor, and I breathe through it because the sadness, or whatever, something else wants to, like, kidnap me away from my body. But if I'm breathing and I'm kind of like being in contact with the emotion, with the sadness. It doesn't last so much, actually, and it comes and goes. It feels like sometimes I dissociate, I think, because it's intense and it wants to take hold of me, and then it completely goes away for some seconds, but I still stay in contact with me. I'm breathing, I'm with my therapist, and then it comes back, and then I feel it for some seconds, I cry, I breathe, and then it goes away again. And I never did it this way, so I think by it's my therapist calls it some excess emotionality that I've had for my whole life, I think, and it used to be very invalidating when he told me that in the past, like, What do you mean? Right? Right? It's very intense. But I think I know now, because it's a way of crying or suffering. Was abandoning myself because I'm not actually kind of like cradling myself or like being with me while it's happening and comforting. It's like going into the all of it and forgetting I'm in this body, breathing like I'm not with myself, carrying me like a baby through the emotion. It was like completely, it's
Josh Lavine 18:19
like a loss of self through emotional release, kind of, yes, yeah, yes, yeah. I want to, I want to just jump in here to just, I have a few thoughts that are threads that I want to pull out from what you're saying, and even actually, though the way that you're saying in the style that you're saying it with, so first of all, like lot of themes of how radically porous and absorptive you are to your environment, and you talk about enmeshment through parents, but also it's like, just, there's this way I feel your energy is this, is this, is this receptivity, like a not able, not to receive, what is incoming energy, and so that's, that's kind of like some core nine stuff. But also there's being double people, so sexual, social, and then having self preservation, blind, the difficulty of grounding in yourself and experiencing yourself as a as a source of anchoring and and even what you were just describing with the what your therapist called excess emotionality, there's almost like a dissociation into into crying, which is, it's kind of ironic, because it's like most people experience crying as a way to come back home to yourself. But it's this kind of, it's a, it's like a sexual loss of self, thing, you know, we talk about with the sexual instinct. Right, yeah, or this is a way how I'm making sense of it. You tell me if I'm right, but it's like we talk about the sexual instinct, how the sexual Inti instinct is, is looking for what will sort of obliterate me, what will transform me? What will, what will like an orgasm is a kind of loss of self, and this emotional release through crying is sort of, in a way, serving that function, but being a core nine doing that in a way that you're actually losing your well, is
Mariona 20:29
that actually more than losing myself, it was hurting yourself more,
Josh Lavine 20:32
hurting yourself more I see, okay, yeah,
Mariona 20:36
okay, yes, um, because I wasn't like, I was getting into a dark hole. The what I feel the difference is that years ago, kind of the pool of pain and rage that I always pull from was very full, okay, and so anything that would trigger it was very intense. But through releasing and releasing and releasing through the years. I feel there's much less of that. So I think that emotionality, in a way, needed to get out of my body through crying through I see I also shout. I sometimes like, like, punch my pillows. Like, intense discharge. Yeah, has been and still is one of my favorite things to do. But right now, I need much less of it, like, it's kind of like very now a spike like, or I go to it, I release, and I feel calmer and more satisfied right after while, before there would be more and more and more and always more so I feel in a way, I've released a lot that was trapped in my body, and there's still a lot, but yeah, what you said, there's definitely a loss of self in the crying and in that not being a holder of that emotion.
Josh Lavine 21:57
What were you What were you getting out of the way that you cried like you said, it was a kind of hurting yourself. But what was, what were you actually? Um, why did you keep going there?
Mariona 22:13
I think my pain wanted me to know it should be felt, because I tend to not want to feel it, because it was a lot. So I think I was avoiding it, and by avoiding going into the pool, because I remember before I felt safe in my body, doing trauma work or going to retreats, going to do I thought, if I go deep into that and I let myself touch bottom, I would die. So it felt like a lot more than it actually is actually going through it. Now, there is no thing as a bottom for me. Like, it's like a box that's open at the bottom, and you kind of like, instead of going down, you go up, the thing of like, going through it and that it, that's exactly what you need to do. But I think I was afraid. I think was very scared, very shocked when I was crying, not knowing. I also was always crying alone. So I think I felt also unsupported in that moment, yeah, but like I needed to release. So there was a lot of complications or extra added things that prevented me from really releasing through crying. I don't know that it was a retraumatization, not exactly, but the pain felt like a lot, and it completely overwhelmed me. And probably I didn't even put boundaries to that. Like, when do I want it to stop? No, fully, like, completely opening a door of years, or, like, I don't know, centuries of I think I even sometimes in the past, connected with my ancestors. Like, I know that this is not only mine. I can feel them. I can feel their pain as well. And right now, with this new way of crying or releasing while also being in holding myself like breathing and letting motions come and go, it's much more controlled. It's as if I'm putting a boundary to the emotion as well, and and I feel it's me and the emotion and that process. Now, while before, it was only the emotion and there wasn't me, Yep, yeah, so I guess it's like, I Oh, what comes up right now is I am the emotion, I am all of that. I am the turmoil. I am the chaos. Mariana completely disappeared in this moment. I'm just that black hole, right, right? It was excruciating. It. I was very afraid of going into. It, and while, at the same time, there was some release, but not that much, you know, yeah, it's, it's a lot of emotions that I also identified with. And right now, I don't anymore, like I've loosened the grip a lot of the attachment to my emotions.
Josh Lavine 25:18
Is there a point in your in your crying, where you feel you arrive at a place of, like, Okay, I got there, like, the catharsis,
Mariona 25:33
yes, but it has to be when my therapist is there I think, or if I'm alone when I'm writing the messages, because I don't want you to get the idea that I was avoiding myself through crying, which might also be true, but to me, always, my emotions have given me the messages that I couldn't access consciously. So there are always these inner messages, Revelations, truths that were accessed, of what it was actually hurting me, what I didn't like about the situation or a message, I say to myself, I believe I have about myself that's coming back, and usually I can like they come clearly while I'm crying, and If I have a paper with me, that's why, right now I emptied my room of notes, but there's still one up there, a note. I have lots of stickers and post its around my house with all these messages that come up. I'm very thankful for that, because that's the way also I heal and I know what I want, because consciously, I have to go through that process to know, ah, this I didn't like. This is what is affecting me. This is what I don't know what to do. And most of the times, there is even not a lot to solve just to feel how I've been attacking myself, and know that I don't deserve to talk to myself in this way and to have these beliefs. And when my therapist is with me, he asks me lots of questions so that we can understand more. And I'm always surprised of what's coming up always, like in every session, like, how big is the unconscious? Like every time I've been doing therapy for years, and it's always like something new. And while I'm doing therapy, I'm both like releasing and surprised and excited, because new layers come up of understanding and interpreting better my wounds that always have more meaning. So it's like raw gold, I don't know, raw mineral, all of that,
Josh Lavine 27:51
and that's nourishing those insights and discoveries. Yes, very much. Yeah, you mentioned just growing up and have it holding a lot of charge in your body that hadn't yet been released, and you needed to go through all this. Yeah, you needed to discharge all of it. And so you kind of did that through therapy and through self analysis and through a lot of crying and stuff like that. And my sense is that you're saying that you've gotten a lot of that out. So there was like, a Yeah, there was like a lot of it was dammed up, but the dam broke, and through many sessions of release, it's like the backlog is mostly now gone. But how do you distinguish between when you're
Mariona 28:38
not mostly, but the part that was hurting me the most. Yes, I see okay,
Josh Lavine 28:46
I've never asked a question quite like this, and I'm not even sure if the premise is right. But what I'm at, what I'm wondering about is, how do you distinguish between releasing more of the backlog versus, I don't know, discovering yourself more in the present, or just it's it feels to me. Let me say it differently, like it feels to me, like who you are, like part of your essence is, is this kind of open, channeled process. It's like there's a lot coming through you. There's a lot of psychological discovery. There's a lot of, yeah, just psychological material that's kind of like, you're like a fountain, you know, even in the email that you sent me like this, and maybe I'll put a photo of it on the screen, if you're willing to have that, but, yeah. Why not? Sure, yeah. But it's like, you know, you're, you're, you're typing your name in the center, and then looks like maybe 20 or so different lines. And you know, it's like, fearful of what attachment changed the world, Destiny, paranoia, neuroticism. There's all this. It's like an explosion of self insights. And it's like a map of the. Inner world. But it's, it's almost like I experience it as less of a map and more like what you would see happen after a firework. It's like, here's all the sparks. You know? It feels to me like, that's, that's like your inner shape. You know what I mean is that, that dispersion, yes, yes. I
Mariona 30:22
like inner shape, like all of these things we're saying and much more yeah is happening inside at the same time, yes, and it's accessible to me at any given moment. Yeah, usually, especially, I'm not in control of when things happen to me, so they start revealing themselves to me as I'm growing and living and, yeah, at the same time, while you're saying this, I kind of want to go, Fuck off, like this is also not me, because I can Be very light, and I really like it, and then all of this is like, No, I'm tired of me, you know, like after all these years of doing this and hurting me, because I think when you have this pattern of self demand, you use inner work To attack yourself like it's not really a place of, what do I need now I will go use what I take, and then go and leave something and go somewhere else. It was, like, all of it. I like all of this. And you can get really lost. And I guess there's a lot of nice there of all these tools and what I'm discovering, and I'm losing myself in it. I actually have things to do that. I want to do that, I want to accomplish that. I want to have relationships. And, you know, it doesn't serve me to be so immersed all the time in my inner world. It's a tendency that I have, and I need to have a lot of that. I when I'm alone, it's like almost as well. ADHD focus into different things like, oh this, and I plunge for 12 hours, and I forget to eat, I forget to sleep. And this is very interesting, and I don't put a boundary on when I want it to end. So then my health presents from it, right? I do usually feel a lot of interestingness from this. It's like, oh, I guess it's the sexual sparks. Like, I really like this. I didn't do this. Let's go into this right now. It needs to be right now. A lot of it. And then I will, yeah, just get new insights and get very excited about it. Excited is not the word, because it's much more than that, but, and it's crazy that I was recently talking about this with my therapist, it's like a compulsion. Yeah, it's at the same time my nature. But I felt recently in a session, he was telling me, what are all these things that you have to be and I was making a list. He said, No, don't make a list like what comes up. And I was saying, interesting, intelligent, attractive, innovative, powerful, and maybe 15 more adjectives along those lines. And I think it's probably the the one wing, maybe also the three of all these things I have to be, I have to do to keep this image. And that's also been exhausting me, and that I've been really letting go lately. But it's been, it's been, I don't know, like a feedback loop of of what's feeding me, what's getting me what I need, but at the same time it's against me. And yeah,
Josh Lavine 33:59
I Yes, yes. I mean, it has a kind of snake eating its tail quality in a certain way. There's a what comes up for me is like it feels like you're inside you inside your inner world is the snow globe that is like shook up, and it feels like you're trying to access a settled state by, yeah, going finding one of those snowflakes, and then grabbing it, and then really understanding it, and then, like, putting it back down so they can settle. But in the process of going after that snowflake, you disturb all of the water, and all the other snowflakes flurry around you. And so you're the act of self analysis, like, going out to that one snowflake actually creates the interactivity that generates all this extra chaos and so but then you're like, well, in order to solve that, I have to go to this next snowflake, and then it generates more chaos. And it's kind of this never ending, like. Like turbulence that you're trying to solve. Maybe this is where nine comes in. It's like, I'm trying to settle myself, but in so doing, or like, my way of doing it is actually kicking up more
Mariona 35:13
activity. Yes, I like the way you put it. It's interesting. I like the snow globe, because I usually see that in my inner world, it's usually shaken up. So it's like, all the snowflakes going around, and I'm really looking forward to the moment when they will come to sit down and like in this and on the beach, really like, Be still. Yes, I can access those moments. And right now, I'm creating a lifestyle for myself where there is more of that, because before it was all the time shaken and I would never access grounding, but now I can, so okay, but I do feel I miss a part of that feeling that's why I was writing to you and like the things I want to talk about, some kind of like, past FOMO, like, letting go of the past is hard because I think this could be the the seven fix. A lot of mental activity, yeah, a lot of enthusiasm, a lot of ideas. Like, I would never I would be a machine of ideas. That's why all those post its I had to create for myself a box with a hole where I would put a lot of these ideas, because it was a way for me to say, if I never put these ones into practice, it will be okay. You know, it's just honoring myself and letting myself have these ideas. But I was punishing myself by thinking I would be able to manifest all of those ideas into reality. It's actually impossible. My mental activity was beyond what's accomplishable. So I created this box where all the ideas are that if one day I want to go into them and just dream and daydream and do this one I can do it because I have a lot of daydreaming in my head about these ideas, but I also through this shift, and this last years I've seen that I want to let go of this because it all it also hurts me. I love it, and I can still do it, but dreaming so much. And while I'm it's usually about changing the world, that's what you were seeing before. It's like, Oh, I'll do this project with these people. And while I'm imagining it, it's already real in my head, and I'm experiencing all the hormones and chemicals from it's already real. The bad part is that I did no action towards it, you know, like it's not real because I would have to. And I realized a lot of my procrastination comes from the fact that the process in my head and how I know I will feel, or how I tell I imagine myself I will feel maybe, let's say, recording a podcast is never the same in reality, like I'm attached to a feeling of how it feels I'll be feeling when I'll be doing it. So it's always better in my head, and then the actual process of doing it in reality, there's always obstacles. You know, maybe you're thirsty like in my head, it's always better. It doesn't have any negatives. It's pure dreamscape. And I'd say before all my I used to be a freelancer, and I, I want to tell you about this.
Josh Lavine 38:44
Okay, well, real quick. Let me just before, before you go there, just just to comment on that, the the fantasy thing, because we, we talk about sometimes with seven, how seven exists in a state of almost constant inner torment, comparing the the the incredibly enticing and exciting vision that I have in my head for how something could be and how it actually is in reality, and the disappointment you experience in the kind of tragic gap between the two. So yes, sevens can, like, think about how amazing an apple is going to taste it's like, gonna taste the best, you know, and then you bite it, and it's like, it's a little mushy, you know. And it's like, that's just, that's and that's what creates the seven frustration loop. Is that that that gap never seems to close, but that also as a secondary fix for you, kind of, kind of powering a core nine thing, where there's also, like, I'm trying to settle myself, but also have two assertive fixes behind that, and also being sexual, social with this kind of, like, a, it's fine use the words, it's like, it's like this, like, huge, global, messianic change the world. Kind of energy. Um. Which I relate to in my own way, being social, self present,
Mariona 40:04
word, yeah,
Josh Lavine 40:08
and being nine, like I contain everything. It's like, I can't settle until the entire world has settled with me, you know. So I just, I just, I just interject that to kind of put some Enneagram commentary into what you're saying. But yeah, go ahead.
Mariona 40:25
I actually think it's good to let the ball be still right now. I don't want to go into what I wanted to say. I think I'd rather,
yeah, get a little bit calm because there's a lot of sparkly energy that I'd like to settle down. How do you feel about this? I
Josh Lavine 40:52
feel great about that. That's love it. I actually, I'll say, I'll say something about it as we'll breathe, and I'll say this at the same time. Seems to me that that's like a real time. That is exactly the antidote to what we've been talking about, right? What you just did, yes,
Mariona 41:17
yeah, yeah. Cuz it's tiring. It's tiring to be myself. I don't want to do this thing I do all the Time. No, sure. I
Josh Lavine 42:19
Ah, ah,
so what's happening now? Hi, hello,
Mariona 43:13
the world just is
okay, yeah, I'm looking through the window and there's nothing I need to say or do.
Things just exist,
Josh Lavine 43:39
beautiful, yeah, I have my own version of what you're just you're describing as a three it's like, there's a way that what I feel like my personality is doing is like, I want to settle too, you know. But at the same time I want to, I want to settle once I've become who I'm supposed to be, you know, and once I've, once I've manifested, like all of my potential and accomplished, all the projects and all that kind of
Mariona 44:07
stuff that will, you'll never get there, correct? It's what I'm hearing that's exhausting, right? But I know, I know I have something similar in another version, yeah,
Josh Lavine 44:19
yeah. I mean, it's kind of like, it's kind of bleak and sometimes disenchanting to newcomers to the Enneagram when we talk about your your your type, from the Enneagram point of view, is actually the hell you're living in. Yeah. And the antidote is presence, which is what we just did. I had a moment like this this weekend where I I had nothing to do. And I love days where I don't have anything I love the weekend days where I really just, I don't require anything functional of myself. And and I went out to the there's this big field out there, and I went and I laid down, and I just, I literally just watched cloud formations. And. Yeah, and I looked at the pine trees and how they're I've got a secondary non fix also. So just like, that's like, I just totally luxuriate in that space of just like, settling and letting the world in. And I I got to this place of just feeling so filled with awe. And I just was like, This is what I'm this is what I am. And for, you know, it's like awe, a sense of awe and intimacy, you know,
Mariona 45:31
yeah, this is a lot more important than people realize, yeah, because this is in every moment, if we're capable of using that way of looking at things. I sometimes when I get kind of stuck, I I lay, when you say flat like, lay on the bed, like, flat on the floor of my building. And it's interesting, because when you do that, you see your house, but from another angle, because you're always standing so you're looking at things, you can look at it, but if you are there, you actually see things you could never see, because you're on another level. And it's like, oh, I want to stay for some minutes or hours in here and explore my house from here. So it's like you don't even need to go into nature to apply that way of looking at life. It's like you just need to turn the object in a way, oh, from here or from here. But you can change where you look at from. And I don't know life in this way could be really exciting, yeah, not really just, yeah, whatever objective,
Josh Lavine 46:50
yeah. It's kind of funny, because you know, with these, with these interviews, it's like our our intention is to unpack what's going on in the inner world and what's the texture of it and the structure of it, and how how it works, and how we get into self defeating patterns, and how we're all right, and then arriving in a moment like this, it's kind of like, what's the point? You know, it's like, what? Yeah, like, why would we even keep having that conversation, but actually that's interesting, because that's the that would be my three stuff
Mariona 47:30
you can conversation.
Josh Lavine 47:34
Well, it's more like, what's the functional point of this now is what my three personality wants
Mariona 47:44
to ask. Well, my DJ is actually wanting to turn the table and be like whatever. You know,
there's something I wrote down in my list, in my list, that the Enneagram just made me so aware of it, and it's, like, so hilarious to myself the peacocking, because I knew it would cover moment when things settle where I kind of like, naturally, want to go over there and Do something to impress the person I'm with to create something new and interesting. And I love doing that. It's as if, for example, I now said I will take a book that I have here, a random one, open it and read whatever's there while singing to you as an experiment. I don't know exactly what would be there, how it would be, how it would sound, how I would look, but the adrenaline that it would segregate, and how goofy the whole experience is would make me just want to do it, you know. So if you're up for it,
Josh Lavine 49:00
you want to do that? Yeah, why not? Great. You want to do that. Let's Sure. Let's Okay. I'll follow your lead. Let's
Mariona 49:09
see. I promise this isn't prepared. This is just one that I found. It's the almanaccetori, which is about Occident um, habits and ways of living in an one area of occidentia in France. I'm looking to see if there's something like a poem. But you ready?
Josh Lavine 49:35
I'm I'm ready. Let me wait. Let me let me like, okay, yeah, now I'm ready.
Mariona 49:42
I'm not ready, but it's gonna be fun. The INS Love melacianas.
Leo espeto Li Po se levom Dev Ali bastimen pu freman Jay red imaginari, siame a ribo de me di Terre nego legendo se Camino, camins, millenaries, percumen, sansos de pupils, my digamen VO So que si am Ren que decir buetos sus la escuean da port de Seto, le lume de fanaus que Fun Ren que des teletos. Ren, que deste letos sus Thank you. That
Josh Lavine 51:21
was lovely. And your voice sounds so, like intimate on the microphone too.
Mariona 51:25
There you go. That's something I like to do. Sometimes I love it. Where
Josh Lavine 51:31
did that idea come from?
Mariona 51:36
The idea of this exact Yeah, right now,
Josh Lavine 51:41
yeah. Like, do you have a sense of the place inside you, where that came
Mariona 51:46
from? Feel it's like my chest kind of like, wants to go forward, and I feel it's kind of a conquest thing. I I've realized recently for me, my it relates to my astrology. I think my sun in Aries and my moon in Aries. It's a lot of conquesting, conquering experiences. Okay, so it's a movement forward to life, plunging into the unknown with just excitement and just wanting to discover myself in whatever shape that can take. You could invite me, and maybe I would feel a little bit more scared, or like, oh, what will that be? But if I choose the shape, and I don't know in what way it will come up, it could have been rhythms, percussion, or, I don't know, but I also like to display some seduction in there. Like, what can I do to put this person in a state of trance, in a way, with me, and so that after that, both of us will feel different when we open our eyes in a way, you know, right? Yeah, it's like a need, an urge for me to have a new experience and to have it with you,
Josh Lavine 53:13
for you to come with me, and for both of us to be changed and
Mariona 53:18
to let it transform us. And yeah, that's the point where I'm getting now, where it's feeling really good to also have presence in it. Like, there was a moment at the end of the song that I'm like, Okay, I'm even getting there. Like, it I'm even soothing myself and accessing something beautiful that I don't know where it's coming from, and it's not even mine. Yeah. Now I'm a little embarrassed After saying this, are you
Josh Lavine 53:45
I'm actually, I'm actually, sorry i Yes, it is vulnerable. Yeah, it's a vulnerable thing. You just said it's, it's, I mean, it's, it's kind of like, beautiful in its, in its, it's the like, to me, that's the kind of thing that takes a lot of courage to even suggest, you know, and then to actually do it.
Mariona 54:01
I don't know how it felt to you, like I, whenever I've had those moments, the people I'm with don't know about the Enneagram, so they can actually, usually they say, thank you. They say, Oh, it's so beautiful. Thank you for sharing that. Or, Oh, can you do it again? But there's never more feedback. And I just wonder, like from this angle of observation, what do you see?
Josh Lavine 54:27
Well, um, you mentioned the seduction in it, and the way that it's like an experience that you're
Mariona 54:36
because it's not actually seducing to get you, you know, yes, like I feel it as, like I'm flirting with life all the time, and you happen to be the one in front of me right now, but it's someone else, you know, it's just sorry,
Josh Lavine 54:52
that is incredible. That was like, a that's like, that's, that's it right there, that's it. Yeah. Yes, yeah, I actually, I'll tell you what happened with for me just now. Was, was I was of two minds. On the one hand, I was like, enjoying and appreciating, just like the rawness and the vulnerability of this offering that you're making. And I was like, really taking in and you have a very beautiful and kind of delicate voice, like a like a plaintiff. And also, I mean, it was the way that you were singing, too. So I found myself being drawn into it. And at the same time, you know, maybe because I'm social self pres, or however you want to analyze me like, and also the fact that we're in this context, the social context of doing an interview. It's like, I found myself also having a certain kind of observatory distance from it at the same time. So it was both, you know, I was like, in it and also outside it and and then what I was wondering was, is the fact that I'm that there's any part of me that's outside it having an effect on you, like, I was wondering if it was like there was a sense of you, no, or if the if you might be sensing, like, Oh no, it's not working. Like we're not, we're not fully alchemically. Who cares? Okay, yeah, yeah,
Mariona 56:17
that that would be, that's what I do a lot of the time, because I'm always analyzing and observing, and, yeah, you know, and like this, and it could be like that, but at these pure moments, no, I'm just fully in myself, Yes, moment, I'm not caring or worried about how it's being received, like there is no worry about this whatsoever. It's just pure sharing. And I guess voice is a place I found that I really find comfortable and and it's bigger than me, in a way. What so
Josh Lavine 57:05
would it be true to say that it when you're less in yourself and or less present, that when you, when you are flirting with life, there is a different kind of need for life, to engage with you, or to kind of get subsumed in it, or, like, a a need you having that depends on the other person or the environment's response.
Mariona 57:30
There's one need, yeah, attention. I want your full attention. Yes, yeah. And I know if I ask for it, I'm going to have it, because that's what, exactly what I asked you, right? It's like, I'm not proposing something, and I hope I'll get your return attention. It's not like, Josh, can you pay full attention to me and I'm going to do something? I don't know exactly how I do it, or like, how I'm so assertive because but I realized about this when I was seeing the Gaelic people from Scotland sing in public a lot. And you don't have to be a good singer. It's just, you just go out there and share yourself, whatever you think will come up. It'd be a song you invented, a song that you know, it's like very fluid. And I think when in any nation or country where there is a culture of open sharing, people feel they can go out there to just be themselves, and people are not judging and judgmental. And first time I did it, I was afraid, but I really liked it, and then I lost that fear that made me in the past not want to have this experience right now. I really think people love listening to others and whatever they have to say. And I go to places where people do this, and we love it. In my city, any person actually sharing whatever, a poem, a thought, something they wrote, their frustrations, it's just like listening is so beautiful, and it doesn't matter what it is you'll have to say or want to share, but if you just put yourself out there and share something that's true to you, because if it's not true, people are going to know, and sometimes you don't even need to know. What is it is that you want to share? You go up there and it's going to be clear for you, and from there, you you see, you start, yeah, and you will, you trust. I think I'm better and better at trusting life, and in this moment of attention, it's, it's a trust that my need is getting met and it's going to get met. And I don't know if it's selfish, it feels a little bit, you know, because. Yeah, but, yeah. The thing of the full attention, I think I realize now is very, very nourishing for me,
Josh Lavine 1:00:10
yeah, but, but I think there's a paradox too, that I was tuning into, where it's like, you're also you're paying enough attention to yourself that you feel like a solid form, and so when you So, in other words, yes, there's, there's a there's a need, or there's a request for attention, which is part of this, I think, well, either the social or the sexual instinct. But there's also, it's not like your emotional state is dependent on my paying attention. It's kind of like, it's a celebration. It's an invitation, exactly?
Mariona 1:00:44
Celebration, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
Josh Lavine 1:00:48
yeah. So that's kind of, that's, that's kind of interesting, right? There is like the like, when you're when you're in your body and expressing your sexual instinct, it's both self contained, and also it's an invitation to your environment or the world, but it's, but there's not a kind of, like an there's not a neediness in it, you know, it's like a, it's a, it's like a twinkle in the eye or something. It's a different kind of, it's
Mariona 1:01:13
kind of like, here I am. This is me here. Like, hello, I don't know, whatever could be in here, you know, like, yes,
Josh Lavine 1:01:20
yeah. And it is actually, it's interesting too, because I think it's um, David overlaps sexual social with type two. And I like that because it's, there's a, there's a kind of a penetrating heart quality, like we just said, it's like, hello, I'm here. And there's also, it's actually almost like, it's almost like a challenge. It's almost like, are you going to be here with me too? You know, it's penetrating. You know, it's like, it's like, let's, I'm going to get in there with you. I'm going to get I'm going to get inside you, and you're, I'm going to get in, I'm going to get past the wall of dissociative attention that you normally hold up, and we're going to be here together. Now, you know, it's like, it's demanding.
Mariona 1:02:00
Yeah, this is not something that I think when I do this, or other people that I've seen do, it comes to mind, but it's an unconscious expectation. Yes, because I do really want to touch you, like if I didn't touch Yes, right? Damn it, you know, like, I need to do it better the next time, or different in a way that will impress you, because I want you to hear me and be I probably, I guess it's a way that I will want you to listen to me the next time as well. Like, not necessarily through a peacock moment, but in general, you know, like, this is a way that we could be sharing, and maybe it also, I'm hoping it will stimulate you into taking the courage to do something similar and continue to share from there. Because I'm tired of verbal communication many times. Why so many words? There is so much, you know, like in other languages, and I don't mean verbal languages, you know,
Josh Lavine 1:03:03
I have a question, and it might even might be irrelevant at this point, but all of the the stuff that we started the conversation about the the big, kind of amorphous cloud of topics and self explorations and family enmeshment and traumas and crying and all that stuff like, how is that living in you now in this moment, or is it it's
Mariona 1:03:30
gone? It's gone.
Josh Lavine 1:03:34
Yeah. And that amazing,
Mariona 1:03:38
yeah. And I look at it as from here as this made me who I am, and this is where I am now, and I can also not be all of that like this doesn't doesn't define me. It's what I've had to live with and part of my experiences. But I want to go beyond that and and create. It feels like right now, pure creation is very meaningful. From from nothing, you know, like from scratch, from whatever raw material that that's why I never go into art galleries like I'd rather go somewhere and create informally, sharing it or not then, and I love art, but there's a lot more in the what could be now. It feels really seductive to me as well. Like, why should you not bite into the apple that life is offering you, yeah, yeah. It's like, it's pulling me. I kind of started it, but right now I'm in a place that's, I don't know, very sensual to me. In. Life. I think I really like the topic. Like, I could really, like, go it with it, with you, and talk about it for three hours more and, like, milk it a lot. I really like it.
Josh Lavine 1:05:10
The topic being, how would you define it?
Mariona 1:05:12
Creative, flirtiness, yeah,
Josh Lavine 1:05:15
yes, yeah. I love this, yeah. Flirting with life. And there's, I think there's an intimacy in it too, like you're, yeah, it's like, there's a experience in your energy, especially as like, I'm experiencing right now in a very grounded state. It's like, there's, like, grounded and focused, you know, which is, which is a remarkable contrast to how we started the conversation, you know. And there's, and there's a, there's a grounded focus, penetrating, flirtatious and a sense of creative potential, all kind of wrapped up into a very dense point, you know. And it's like, I can feel it, yeah, there's, but there's like this, yeah, there's a way it feels like you're creating an energy field that feels like we're the only two people in the world right now. You know what I'm saying, where it's like, Good, that's, that's the
Mariona 1:06:17
interesting, yeah, it's very It gives life, I think, to myself in a different way.
And there's something about potential and and truth and and something very human of like all the things we're capable of when we believe in ourselves, because they're like judgment has had ceased at that moment, and it's kind of like a space of pure appreciation of whatever is there, like putting the ear or the attention there, multiplies whatever the other person's going to say and takes away the judgment and, and I don't know, I guess it's like when one artist does a really good show and it's not recorded. I guess some of the best shows are not recorded, you know, because in those moments it's like that raw, that specific concert, where they found that quality and they let go and it could never be experienced again. And I think it's also seeing the person shining in a way, and taking ownership of that part of ourselves that right now that I'm doing it feels really good. I don't give myself that much permission in my life to go out there and do it, because there aren't many spaces you know. You have to find it wherever you are and seize the moment, and sometimes even when you want to create it, it doesn't work. When you plan it, you know, it kind of has to have space for nothing,
Josh Lavine 1:08:10
right, right? Yeah, it's also, it's kind of like non functional, but it's, but it has this, but it's beautiful and it has an inspirational quality, or it has a something like a CR, yeah,
Mariona 1:08:25
yeah. That's what I seek to do, inspire. Yeah, yeah.
Josh Lavine 1:08:30
That was really, really good and interesting. I can't wait to watch this back and and just, just, oh god, this is really rich and very textured. So how are you feeling now? And what has this been like for you?
Mariona 1:08:47
I'm feeling vulnerable, but also very safe, like I trust myself and I hold myself and I'm trembling a little bit, and I'm also a little bit hungry,
Josh Lavine 1:09:10
speaking of needs, yeah, cool. When you said that you trust yourself and you hold yourself, that actually got me back to that place myself where I kind of took a breath and was like, Oh man, I haven't actually been doing that for the last 15 minutes, 10 minutes or so. Well, maybe we come to a close. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you for doing this. This has been amazing. Just this conversation. Sorry to cut
Mariona 1:09:42
you. I really kind of wanted to talk about what I do in life and what's my mission, but to be honest, I don't need to. So yeah, you can close like, I guess it's something I'm confident we can do some of the time. Am on camera or without camera, but this was very satisfying, so please go on. Sorry,
Josh Lavine 1:10:06
great. No, I'm glad you said that. Yeah, no, I'm fascinated by the the way this conversation unfolded, and kind of all the anticipation of it and then what you sent me, and the kind of, for lack of better terms, the kind of the chaos and swirl of it all, you know, and how it all, how we kind of, in our conversation, zoomed out enough to see that and then, and then allow, and then allowed it to settle. Actually, it was you did it you, you kind of were like, I don't want to, I don't want to tell you the story that I was going to tell you, I want to just like, get into myself, and that totally shifted everything. So that was very cool.
Mariona 1:10:49
Yeah, I guess I wish I could explain that heaviness of what's happened to me in a way that was less heavy, but it was what it was, and I'm I'm not judging it. It's also me. And,
Josh Lavine 1:11:05
yeah, yeah,
Mariona 1:11:08
I guess because we don't know each other so well, we cannot really frame it in a way that's like, super well organized. Sure that you know that I kind of wanted to start there. And I also, guess I'm validating myself for what I've lived, and that's important to tell and that was also important for me. So once that is done, moving somewhere else, right? Different, with a different energy, happy to do this in some years again and see what comes up, then that could be
Josh Lavine 1:11:38
cool. Okay, well, talk to you soon. Thank you for listening to my conversation with Mariana. If you liked this conversation, then please click the Like or Subscribe button on YouTube. Or if you're listening to this as a podcast, then you can leave up to a five star review. Those are zero cost and very effective ways to support me and our work at The Enneagram School and conversations like this. If you're curious to learn more about what we do at The Enneagram School, you can go to our website at thenegram school.com, right there on the front page is a link to our first ever intro course, which I talked about in the beginning of this episode. We would love for you to check that out, but if not, we recommend that you get on our email list anyway, and we will send updates. And whenever we drop conversations like this, we'll announce them, and we'll also announce future retreats and other offerings and stuff like that that we're doing. And yeah, that's it. I mean, we have an ongoing schedule of updates that are coming soon for the year of 2025, and also more interviews just like this coming out as well. On that note, if you are interested in being interviewed, then I'd love to hear from you. Preference goes to people who have been officially typed by the team at enneagrammer. You can go to their [email protected] to check out their typing services. And also, they have a member subscription service that I think is very, very good, where they make fine tuned, hyper specific, real time distinctions while they watch celebrities on YouTube. You could also go to there's a new page that I put on The Enneagram School website that has a list of an organized list of all the Enneagram interviews that I've done so far. And you can see where I'm out of balance. I have a lot of interviews with nines. I don't have a lot of interviews with, for example, sevens and other types. So if you are a type or an instinctual stacking that I have less of, and I would especially love to hear from you, and I'd like to interview you, so reach out. And also, if you are a practitioner or a teacher of a inner work modality that I have not interviewed about yet, then I would love to hear from you as well. So also, just at the Enneagram school.com go to the contact form and shoot me a message there. I'll get right back to you. Okay, that's it for me. I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Marianna, and I'll see you next time you.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
