John Luckovich 0:00
The Enneagram is for anyone, anywhere where there are people, it's like it's a people tool. And so anywhere where there are humans, the Enneagram is useful, and also anywhere where you are, the engram is useful because it's a tool for self awareness. Welcome to another episode of what it's like to be you. I'm Josh Lavine, your host, and today is a special day and a special episode. Because rather than doing an interview like I normally do, I am just talking with my friend and co founder of the Enneagram school, John luckovich, and we are talking about our intro course we're taking behind the scenes of what it was like to create it and work on it and produce it together. And also, as of today, officially, ladies and gentlemen, it is available for pre sale. We are launching it right now, right now, right now. You can go onto the Enneagram school.com and then sign up buy it for pre sale, and you will officially be able to listen to it in January, when we launch it. Date coming soon. We're super, super excited to finally get this thing out, as you'll see in our conversation, it took us way too long to build this thing. It took us over a year. It was incredibly difficult to build intro course for a lot of reasons, but we are very, very proud of the final product and really excited to actually unveil it and offer it to you guys so you can listen to it. You can also buy it for your friends or your family or your loved ones as a gift. And so there'll be instructions on the Enneagram school website on how to do that as well. And the holiday season would be a great time to do that if you'd like to do it. The pre sale has a has a 50% off discount from the full sale price of the course, and that will be available for a few weeks. So go to the Enneagram school.com for details on that. And once again, we are very, very excited to launch this. That's it for me. So I hope you enjoy this conversation between me and John. Take you behind the scenes of the intro course and go to the Enneagram school.com to check out our intro course.
So you are burned out.
Josh Lavine 2:04
I'm tired. Man, yeah, I'm tired. It's why are you burned out? Well, John, we, we, we just finished recording and editing the intro course, by which I mean I just finished editing the intro course that that we recorded and I edited over the last year, and it's it took us too long to make this course, way too long. But very proud of it, very happy about it, and it's it's over, and I can't wait to put it behind me, to have it out in the world.
John Luckovich 2:50
So you listened to hours and hours of both of our voices over and over again. What did you like? I you know, obviously, we want people to, like, be interested in it, but, like, what did you, yeah, would you like notice about listening to it, you know, like, and getting sick of us?
Josh Lavine 3:15
Yeah, that's a great question, actually, not to be cheesy, I didn't really get sick of us. Yeah, let's I'm not, not trying to like, positive, like, over, you know, Outlook, too much of this, but I feel like there was I'm exhausted because of the sheer amount of physical labor that it was, and how fucking profession perfectionistic and nitpicky I got about taking out ums and likes and little spaces between things. And just trying to keep it like, make, make the conversations really crisp and dense, and I literally edit it almost at like the sentence level where, like, I was like, or I kind of was like, like, okay, as if I had was writing an essay, but it was just taking, like, you said a sentence over here. It really belongs over here, and so just making it flow. But like taking a almost like a sculptor's lens, or a writer like an editor's lens, to it
John Luckovich 4:10
being a three is sometimes a disease.
Josh Lavine 4:12
Yes, this Yeah, one learning from this experience. But one of the things that was amazing, I think, just listening to it was, first of all not to, like, blow smoke or whatever, but like, you're like, we recorded this in sessions just like this, where we would show up, and sometimes we'd be groggy and we wouldn't get to record for half an hour or so. And then we'd like, sometimes not even record that day, but then we'd show up and we'd record, and we'd just push play and just see what happened. And when you when you like, when your channel is open and you start streaming, it's just so clear and so good. And so I was kind. Of, like marveling at the access that you have to this kind of clarity just internally. And I was kind of like, let's see how to put this. It was, it was actually an interesting noticing for me, like the contrast between how you hold the Enneagram internally and how I do, or how you, let me say it like this, like I had to go back and actually write out some of what I thought, and then record my stuff in retrospect. And you can probably, like a little if, like, you have a good ear, you can probably hear like, slight differences in the sound where I like overdubbed stuff or, like punched stuff in, from my point of view. But I noticed that when I was recording, when we were talking about, for example, type six, I would say something, and then I would literally, like short circuit in the middle of our recording, because something would happen like I would, I would catch myself looking too intently for your reaction to what I was saying, to like, affirm what I was saying as like, right, you know, or just like, to make sure there was, like, a social, like loop between us, to make sure that what I was saying was being received and what like, If you were taking a sip of coffee or, like, not paying attention in some kind of right way that I would, like, lose it, you know, more interesting? Yes, yeah, it was interesting. Yeah, I didn't realize how I was probably just, like, looking at my phone, you know, whatever I was doing, social, blind self, like, you're like, Oh, Josh was talking. He's got it. He doesn't need anybody to listen right now. Oh, but no, now, you know, yeah, that's right, yeah. It's, like, pretty humbling to realize just how like, insane and like dependent my nervous system is on that kind of attack. Like I so I feels like I so require a container to pour myself into, you know, like to to speak into. I can't just, like, speak into the void. It's very hard for me. I'm
Unknown Speaker 7:05
just speaking to the boy, yeah, I have no sense of it being received.
Josh Lavine 7:11
That's right, totally, totally. But I think what that does for you is that it gives you a certain like, very like, you have such clear access to that private inner chamber where you hold all this information. And the information like, when you access it, and when you go there, internally, it's intact. You know what I'm saying? You're not looking for an external thing to like, create the circuit loop that allows you to have access to that. And what I found is that sometimes I would have access to it in our conversations if our dynamic was really good, or I would have to go back to my like, just be alone for a while and then write, what do I actually think about type six and what like, for example, type six gets defensive about something like, Why do I actually think that happens? And I had a sat with myself until I found an answer, and then I would write it out, and then I would record what I'd written awesome, kind of on my own time. And so that was just, that was what I needed to do for my own process to kind of get the clearest answer out of myself.
John Luckovich 8:13
I mean, that's, I mean, besides, like, so that ended up, like, you know, everything like, everything that I listen to that you because I didn't listen to everything after, you know, like, was in the whole final product or whatever, but being there with you and then listening to certain sections everything you say is, like, really getting clear, but it's like, one of the What's cool about it is, like, I don't think people understand their own learning process, enough around anything, but especially the Enneagram and so, like, I have a very like, you know, in quotes, like autistic style of Like, of learning and like, processing information, yeah. And like, and you have a different one and like for you, like, you know, whereas mine is like, I do have this capacity to sometimes step into a it's like a an inner clarity about what's already there. I feel like I often speak in a way that is maybe overly too bathed in my own steep Demone in a world in a certain way. And like, I don't always know if my point is clear or if it's even relevant to others. And so like, you've got like, like you're really good at, like, actually speaking people can understand. And like, taking, taking, like, pretty complicated, like, psychological concepts and making them, like, really, like, kind of practical, you know what I mean, like, like, instead of him being so, so, like, oh, and the. Just how to put it, like, oh, the shame response. And then this, you know, you're like, oh, it's gays. And, you know, and and dismissing the gay source and stuff you like, break it down. And, like, really, you know how to, like, make the inner terrain really navigable, instead of, whereas, like, I kind of feel like, even though I think I have a certain, like, I know what I'm talking about, I don't always know if the if I'm able to, like, render a map for somebody else as that very clearly in the, in the way that you do, you know I'm saying, Yeah,
Josh Lavine 10:36
I do. I mean, I appreciate you're saying, but it's, it's funny, because my experience of you is that you are actually very clear, cool, but, yeah, I mean, sometimes you can get, like, I don't know, too cerebral or abstract or something like that, but it's, but it's almost like, Maybe the point that I'm speaking to is that just based on our personality types, like you as a social, blind four with a five wing, and me as a social first, three, triple attachment. It's like your psychological withdrawnness and inner boundedness is such that you are almost like when you're teaching, you're kind of narrating your own exploration of your of the kind of labyrinthine way you hold this, these concepts, you know, your stream is very clear, but it's kind of like your It's almost like your words have to travel such a distance, I think, from, from the inner place that you're speaking from, to the other person. You know what? I mean, totally, yeah. And so it feels like, so that's, I think that's why it's you're like, not really sensing or able to sense whether it's being received, because it just feels like, How could you even see that far, you know, like, if the person's catching, you know, shouting something over at a large wall, and I'm just, like, hoping, Yeah, or like, from like, way in a cave, you know, whereas, like, when I'm speaking to someone, it's like I'm right there with him. It's like my words are, it's like my words are not coming from the depth in me. They're coming from, like, just the out of my mouth, right into your ears and eyes, you know? Yeah. And I have to, I have to actually, really work to to withdraw into myself, to speak from the inner place that I need to speak from if I'm going to teach the Enneagram, you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. And to, or just to access the place where I actually hold this information, where I actually, like, the inner fountain from which the my insights actually come. It's like, I don't have it's hard for me to hold access, hold on to my access of that while I'm actually in relationship. And if the relational container is like, in some way compromised according to my neurotic sense of self, or whatever it's like, then my it's like, immediately I'm like, something anxious. Like, I get anxious, I have to, like, restore the relationship before I can have access to that thing, or I have to learn how to just be like, Okay, that's not important. Then go away by myself to, like, reclaim access to that thing. So, yeah. I mean, I guess this whole, like, in a way, this whole phase of my life, which the course was also a part of, is like trying to learn how to have more direct access to that part of me that has insight and that, you know, the fountain from which that comes. But, yeah, anyway. But that was kind of like, just from the from an editing point of view, is like, we captured everything you needed to say first take, you know, like everything you needed to say you already had you said it in that in the first time you showed up and talked about, for example, type four. But then, like, once what I was editing, I was like, Oh, actually, what I said there, I didn't really say that the best way, or I didn't, I wasn't really connected to myself when I said that. And so I have to re record that kind of, that's great.
John Luckovich 13:57
Yeah? So, yeah, we have certain different starting points and like, yeah, I don't know. I just think it's interesting. We don't really talk like people. Just sort of think about knowing the Enneagram in terms of, just, like, do I have the information? And can I argue whose type is what better or something? And like, there's like, so one of the things I'm getting to with these questions is, I think I was struck by just listening to it, and again, it's us. So it's a little bit like masturbatory to talk about it like this. But I was like, I felt like, I felt like, it was like, I feel like the Enneagram, like, lives inside me in a certain way, right? Like, I like, when you talk about, like, accessing it in my inner labyrinth or whatever, like, I feel that very viscerally, like there's an Enneagram map in me in some way. And I felt like the way that we you. The way that we were exploring each topic and type, it really did have this. It really felt like it was a method of, like, injecting an Enneagram into somebody else, you know, in somebody else's bloodstream. Because we had all the, like, the distinctions that people get all, you know, salivate over, like, you know, core fears and all, you know, all these kind of like distinctions that people get all weird about. But we also had, like, a lot of like, room and unpacking and and kind of like delivery about, like, like, the emotional impression accompany the information. I guess is one way to put it, you know, I'm saying like, like, I think sometimes some things in the Enneagram are better with, like, getting the vibe of a type or of a part of the system, and then other things are better at, like, here's the information, if that you know, other information is even accurate. I feel like our information is very accurate, but we also like, imparted the vibe to, like, get in there, you know, I'm saying we're
Josh Lavine 16:04
also heart types, is the thing? Yeah? Like, yeah. I think this is something about that, like, I don't know of other two, like, heart type teams that are doing this kind of thing, you know, in the Enneagram, yeah? Yeah. I haven't actually even put words to that, but I feel like there's something about that. It's like, we share, we share a heart, forward lens. And again, I'm not trying to make this like, how cool we are, but like, it's just, it's just because of our type, you know, like, yeah, yeah. We're paying attention to the way that other people hold their self concept and speaking to it with a certain kind of emotional landscape. And so, yeah, it's good. And the way that the Enneagram lives in each of us has saturated with a certain emotional intensity or flavor, right? So that's the most part of our delivery. Yeah, stakes, you said emotional stakes? Like, absolutely, identity stakes, yeah, yeah. Like, I mean me trying to understand myself through the Enneagram has, like, it's not just like, oh, this is interesting. It's like, this is the project. It's a part of the project my entire ego is built around. Is
John Luckovich 17:16
now it's like, oh, like, I can extend that to everybody, you know, like, right? This is the way to get to get a little closer to, like, what, what the fuck we are, you know, right,
Josh Lavine 17:29
right, yeah, it just brings up an interesting point about like, there's there's the transmission and there's the transmitter and, and and the two are sort of fundamentally linked in it, in a way. It's like, or the transmitter is a transmission, or something like that. It's like, the teacher is the teaching, like, learning the Enneagram from an eight is you're gonna get a different right version of the Enneagram. And it's not better or worse, it's just a different facet of it. You know, yeah, like, Have you listened to the whole course?
John Luckovich 18:06
Not the entire course? I listened to begin, I can't remember all the different sections, but like, the beginning, about like, presence, the rage, shame and fear, the instincts, the way we set up the types. I think I listened to a few types, so I don't listen to the entire thing, but I listen to a good stretch of it and like, Yeah, I mean, again, we're kind of, it's kind of a circle jerk, but like, even listening to, like, the rage, shame and fear. I was like, like, learning stuff from like, it was just like, it was just so clear. It was just so good, you know, like, these things have been so previously nebulous, like, Ray shaman, fear, yeah, yeah, what, yeah. There are these things that are just sort of there, you know, like, like, I always felt like rage him in fear, was not like, really clearly, like, located in the broader layer cake of the anagram, right? Like, yes, where does it sit? And it was sort of like, it was sort of like, oh, it's there. And we all kind of know, like, we all feel how fucking angry nines are and stuff, and we get the shame thing, but like, Alright, then there are these passions. And then what's going, you know, like, so, where is it sitting in in relation to these things and and, yeah, I just felt like we, like, made it really, really clear and practical, like, more useful
Josh Lavine 19:39
than, yeah, other sources, yeah, I want to talk about how good I think it is. All right, yeah, right. I just, yeah. I mean, I know, I'm just being my type, but also it's like I'm really it's good. I just feel like it's really good. It is really good. No, this. Good. It's just, it's like,
John Luckovich 20:01
I normally feel more embarrassed talking about something like this. Otherwise,
Josh Lavine 20:07
yeah, it's funny. There's a difference between, like, bragging about something in an inflated way, versus just like, I feel really proud of what we did, you know? Because I feel like, for sure, yeah, I feel like the Enneagram is it takes a it takes a lot of effort, actually, to to wrangle and lasso and and collect all these, all these really expansive, highly textured, infinitely kind of dense concepts, and then arrange them into a natural sequence to just be adjusted. You know, for the first time, like, I actually don't, I don't think I really anticipated when we started this, how difficult the project would be to create an intro course, because I think it's in, in some ways, it's, it's easier to create an advanced course that's about a specialized, hyper, specific focus topic. You know, I agree, because you can just, you know, tear a little piece of the universe and then burrow into that for a long time, but to rent, to wrangle the whole, like all the planets of the Enneagram into one coherent picture constellation was, that was a real challenge. And and, like we, struggled with that too. Like we, we had five or six different drafts and versions of the sequence of the program and what concepts to teach and which which to leave out and stuff like that. And, you know, I think it was a we, it was a smart decision. We ended up taking out object relations because it just was getting too dense and cerebral and overly complex, and we were losing some of that emotional flavor that was like, we were losing the impact, you know. And I think people can just learn about the object relations and either a follow up course or or whatever. But it's just like, I feel really good about how we lay this out and how the concepts do actually build sequentially and cumulatively, cumulatively from one to the next. Yeah. So, yeah. I mean, I think,
John Luckovich 22:03
like, something I appreciated in listening back to it was similar to what you're describing, the sense that, like, when you really get the Enneagram, it's like, not just a fucking little personality test or a little cute thing, but it's like, it's one of those kind of, you know, memes, or, you know, I don't mean like shared, like the things on internet, but like a whole, a whole gene of knowledge that that shifts the entire conceptual frameworks, you know, like, shifts your entire it rattles every level of the way you organize information and yourself. And so when you're teaching the Enneagram, you're not just teaching here's like a system and here's like what it's made of, but you're trying to convey like, a whole paradigm shift in the way that you relate to your own inner world and thus other people's inner world as well. So I was like, I didn't like I I know that. You know just like, I just know that. But like to I feel like we did, like I hadn't identified how important that was. And then I feel like, I think our courses really good job of, like, of doing that, of setting that up in that way. You know, I'm saying like, you get baptized in the waters of Lake Minnetonka, you know what I mean, you like, you're really, you come out like, I think it doesn't, I think it, like, sets it up where it's not too much, but it can, it does that like, this is a major shift in my whole outlook thing,
Josh Lavine 23:50
yeah, yeah.
John Luckovich 23:55
Like, a no going back thing, yeah.
Josh Lavine 23:56
I hope so, yeah. I agree with you. I We. We've only had a few people listen to it so far, right? So, like, Well, I mean, I'll be curious to see what, how people actually respond. So this, I feel like we've created a work of art, and we're about to just, like, unveil it, and then hopefully, hopefully people like it. But it's like, I don't know, yeah, maybe nobody. It's just like, yeah,
John Luckovich 24:24
what do you think we think? Like, I know we have, we're, you're burned out, especially, what, what do you think next things are, like, are we gonna do another version of this? Or, like, a part two, or, like, what do you think?
Josh Lavine 24:41
Yeah, good question. I, I don't, I don't 100% know. I think that in terms of the long term vision of the school, you know, the school this, I think the school wants to become a place that has these courses like this available for purchase. This that are not necessarily live offerings, you know, that are just pre recorded, really good, hyper concentrated, like just the Enneagram content that you can buy and listen to. And the intro course is the, it's like the foundational, yep, piece of content. And I think, I think of it as a hub and spoke model, where probably, like people who discover the Enneagram school will have taken a test, probably will have a test at some point on the website you could take through us. That'd be a that's a future project. But the first like learning of the Enneagram that you might do, you probably have listened to podcasts and stuff like that. But you, you've got all your disparate like, you've listened to big hormone, you've listened to other schools, different podcasts and stuff like that, but you're trying to hold it all together. You come to the intro course, you're like, Okay, this is the place where I can actually put all the pieces together and understand what the Enneagram actually is, and see how the whole, how everything, what the tapestry of everything weaving together is from there. I think there's probably like a bunch of different spokes that you can go to. And so I think the developmental view the centers and object relations is like a very natural follow up. I think eventually we should have a course on the instincts that just focuses on that, probably one on, kind of like the harmonic groups. So that's like positive outlook, competence and reactive types. And then also on the Horne, which is, like sort of withdrawn, and I call it conscientious, but yeah, so, like, there's different kind of ways that the Enneagram is organized into the different three groups of three. I think we should do courses on each of those. And once we lay out the, basically the content that we're teaching, there's also, like, the set of live programs that we want to start offering. Because, like, we like, I know we're going to start doing a retreat, hopefully next March. But you know, we're still missing something without having live offerings. And but, yeah, I don't know. I guess I'm thinking about just in terms of the Enneagram school will have different arms. There'll be the arm of just like content that you can buy that's just like on the website. Then there's live online zoom programs that you can join, like attachment support group and the sexual instinct class and stuff like that. Then there should also be in person, retreats and workshops that you can come to, which is a whole different level, and the way that all that fits together in the schedule of everything that's like an organic, an organic process of coming together. So, right, right, yeah,
John Luckovich 27:35
yeah. I mean, I see, you know, taking a taking a rest, taking a pause, and then, you know, stuff we were talking about, like, with negative merging before we start recording, I'm playing with like ways that shows up any instincts and how that's related to to, I mean, just like everything. And so I feel like, I sort of feel like, if we did like a part two thing like this. It would be the instincts, uh huh, yep. And then, you know, a, and, you know, that could even overlap into object relations, just because, like, the object is, you know, that's where we were regulated, instinctually. And then our our individuation process is moving that psychological energy directed towards the original object, displacing that onto, you know, sources of regulation or resources in the world and being are trying to be pro, being proactive and regulating ourselves, rather than depending on our mother or whatever. But anyway, that's like, that's where all this personality shit starts, and where you project essence onto resources. So I feel like that, like how comprehensive and complicated and touches, you know, that's I feel like instincts would be like a, like a, you know, in quotes, like a part two, and then there, then part three, I hate this thing. And then a PART part three would be, you know, like something like this spiritual side, or the object relations and the spiritual side, because, like, when you when you neutralize the object relation, that's when you get into what's beyond an object relation. Yeah, that's right, yeah, yeah. So something like that. But then and then doing like, lots of live courses and retreats and like, you know, eventually I would like us to be able to, like, certify people professionally. I agree, yeah. And I feel like we could, like, there's a way to, you know, use even this course, this intro course, with other ones, and like, you know, balance those out with live in person kind of things like, weave it together somehow, in some organic way.
Josh Lavine 30:00
Yeah, totally, we were even talking about that for the launch of this program. Potentially, is like, we launch it and then on a certain date, you if you buy the course, but also you could, you could also sign up for like, additional classes that we do, maybe, like, once every other week, or something, just to have, have have a community that's listening to the course together and kind of processing the content, or in some kind of way,
John Luckovich 30:26
yeah, that's something we should actually think like, just like, we'll get the fucking thing out there and then, like, in like, spring, we can offer a live accompaniment thing, something like that. Yeah, that's a good idea to, like, have people listen to it together and stuff.
Josh Lavine 30:42
The other potential part two, or part 2b that we should do is the shadow stuff that we talked about and the, what the inner lines? Oh, right, because we did. We're like, this is something. It's amazing. Like we were, we recorded a lot of content, and we tried. We wanted the intro, course, not to be 25 hours long, you know, it's like it it as it is. Now it's a nine hour program, which is already a lot, you know, yeah, it's a lot, but it's, it's built into, like, bite sized 30 minute chunks. But we kind of, I think, like when we, we originally wanted to include the inner lines in this program, but we realized it was just too much information. It was kind of like getting unwieldy. But as we were recording that, I feel like we were actually discovering right stuff and and it was, it was opening up some really good stuff. So that would be also a natural next step, I think, from this, from this program, is to have something like that cool. One thing I wanted to talk about was how, like, the journey of this becoming an audio program as opposed to video program. And like, just how, just how this, how this came to be,
Unknown Speaker 31:53
yeah, okay, go, yeah,
Josh Lavine 31:54
yeah. So, so we, we, alright. So first of all, like, just in terms of, like, my relate, My working relationship with you, just for the listeners, just for the viewers out there, just understand how this works. So I'm usually like, like, Hey John, like, can you meet on, say, Monday? And you're like, you're like, oh yeah. Like, maybe, like, I don't know my schedule, I'm not sure. And then I'm like, I'm like, Okay, well, how about like, two o'clock, and you're like, you're like, Yeah, I think I can do that. And so, you know, at at best, at most, I get like two or three, like one and a half to two hour occasionally, like a three hour session on the schedule, right? So record this, and then we show up. And sometimes, like, one or both of us would just like, not, not be there energetically for it, you know? And actually, I do want to call myself, because it was not just you doing that, it was also me, like, Mr. Three prepared, like I was, I often showed up and was just like, I can't fucking today, yeah. But yeah, so, so there were days where, like, one of us carried the other, you know what I mean, but we recorded all this content. And there was the period, remember, where you were editing? Remember that?
John Luckovich 33:16
Oh, my God, that was so, yeah, that.
Josh Lavine 33:23
I was like. I was like, Wait, here's a here's a good idea. I was like, Wait, this is a way that John can contribute operationally. You could edit because you because it'll be on your own time. You could have it your own computer. Just do it on whatever, what? What was your experience with that? With
John Luckovich 33:37
that, John, oh, my God. It was so miserable. It was just, I just like, don't I'm just not, like, a perfectionist, or like, like, you know, like, I don't even know how to put like. There are things like, like, you know, when, when you listen to what you edit it, it's like, so smooth, right? And I feel like you have a sense of like, the kind of like, like in each sentence, you have a sense of, like, the whole flow of the sentence, and then you have a whole flow of the paragraph, and you have a whole flow of the section. I can't hold all that. And so just be like, I'm gonna take out this, um, and then I'm gonna do this. And it was just like, and I was getting so fucking sick of seeing us and just like, yeah, it was just in everything was annoying. Yeah, I just didn't have, like, I just couldn't do it was really hard for me.
Josh Lavine 34:35
Yeah, it took a long time too, because we had, we recorded, we recorded our first three. We recorded one long just like, let's just turn the camera on. See what happens. We'll record just one long intro to, like, some foundational concepts. And at the time, we were using zencastr, and the zencastr logo was up there in the screen, and there was, like, a way to download it without the logo, but the i. Didn't realize you had downloaded it with the logo. And then spent, like, literally, a month editing this. What like, our video, one, I just one hour video, you know, then send it to me, and I opened it. I saw the zencast, really, I was like, Oh my God. And then I tried, I tried to edit it out. I tried to, like, expand it so there was out. But I just couldn't do it with the just, it wouldn't work. And anyway, but it was, like, the content was, was like, basically good. But anyway, we So, so that was, like, one phase, and then, and then I was like, alright, you know what? Let me, I'll do the editing. It'll just be, it'll just be faster and easier, and I'll just do it. And so we and then, and then I created slides for all of the for all the content sections with like tables that would reveal themselves in the proper order of so it'd be like a slide on type eight, for example. Be like, all right, essential quality, boom, aliveness, power. And we would talk about that, and then, like, I click a button and say, passion, lust. And then we'd go through that, yeah. And what I was fascinated by was just going through that recording. It was like, first of all, um, my mind works in, like, a structured way, like this. And I don't think yours does where it's just, it just doesn't right. It's like, like, I put, like, the the first thing on these, the essence quality up there. And then you'd speak on it, and you'd speak, like, eloquently, but for like five minutes about, like, all aspects of type eight. And then I'd be like, Okay, next click lust, you know? And it's like, Wait, we already talked anyway. So that was, like, kind of a funny struggle. And then, and then finally, like, I wrangled it all together and edit it into these. I edited all the type videos down to these, like 45 minute chunks, and I was and at a certain point I got to this place, was like, Okay, I'm done. I'm done. And then I went back and watched it, and I just had this moment of horror and despair, because I realized it was boring. It was just so it was bad and boring. And I was like, God, this is i and then I felt bad because I was like, Oh, I have been trying to, like, make John fit in, to, like, my structured way of doing this, you know. And it just like, wasn't it was like, not working and so, and the video was boring, and it just was like, not, it was like, painful to watch and stuff. And yeah, so we and so we just kind of hit a wall, and we sat on that for like, three or four months,
Unknown Speaker 37:30
right, right, right.
Josh Lavine 37:33
And then, yeah, yeah. Also,
John Luckovich 37:35
for anybody listening like, we still have those diagrams, like, in, like, like, that information laid out visually in like, PDFs that come with,
Josh Lavine 37:46
yeah, it's, it's, it's, yeah, it's coming with the quote, it's in the Yeah.
John Luckovich 37:49
So you have, like, a book that comes with this, course, you didn't even mention, but it's all that's in there. But yeah, no, I remember, yeah, the like, it was really difficult for me to try to stay with the structure, yeah? And because it's like, it all everything, kind of like, I said, like, leaks into it, like, has, it's all connected. And so, right, yeah, it was like a Yeah. It was like a Yeah. It was
Josh Lavine 38:13
kind of like a big learning for me, of, like, this is this last few years has been a learning for me around, like, work, what it means to work with different personality types, you know? Yeah, I mean, it's like, it really, I try to explain, like, to my friends in like, the professional, like working world that I work with, like, executives and things like that. Like, I'm just like, yeah, it's not like, I don't even think, like, many of them have probably not metaphor, and don't understand even what I'm saying. I'm like, no, like, he's, you don't understand, like, he's a genius. Like this is, like, you know, like this is, it's not gonna be good anyway else. Like, John has to be on this program, but he's not. He can't do the what you what you would normally think. So, yeah, anyway. But what happened was I, like, we sat on it for a few minutes, and then I, I remember actually confiding in EMIC about I was just like, Man, I'm like, kind of really disappointed because he put us working. I don't know what I'm gonna do with this. And he was like, there's gotta be something you can do. There's gotta be something like, there's gotta be something you can do, man. And I, I don't remember whose idea was even but somehow, like, the idea of it being an audio course, came out, and I was just like, Oh, my God, that's so much better in every way. It's just so much better because it allowed, it allowed, first of all, me, to take out, like the ums and the likes and stuff like that, and make a much tighter edit, and so the information flows a lot better. I also think it's better for the for the listener or the consumer, because you could just, you could walk outside and listen to it just like a podcast.
John Luckovich 39:53
Yeah, why would you want to sit there staring at us? You know, while we're just like
Josh Lavine 39:57
at a screen, there's so much screen fatigue already. You. Know, Like, I imagine future courses, maybe we do videos at some point. But like, like, I love the idea of an audio program to deliver this kind of content. And anyway, it also just made it, like, I took a 45 minute video and then turned into a 30 minute audio and cut out all the fluff. And because it's audio, it's not distracting to have really, like, crisp, frequent edits, where you would see, like a really choppy video, but in an audio program, it's actually, it sounds smooth, right? So that's yeah, anyway. So once, once that, once that unlocked, it was kind of like, yeah. It just made a lot of sense. And that's so that's, that's so, that's, that's how we ended up with
John Luckovich 40:44
audio course. I mean, yeah, I think it's great, yeah. So I guess, like, last, I mean, for so this is, we're kind of, like, set putting this out there as like, Hey, this is why you should listen to this thing that we worked on, right? So, like, the actual experience, of the course, is it's audio. It's nine hours in different sections, but it comes with a book, like an ebook that's like, a very like, well, you designed like graphic, designed like thing with all the info. And it's really like, it like, distills it all, but like it, it's how it's like, it just like, if you looked at the ebook before you listened to it, it'd be like, still, really valuable and really good information. But it when it'd be like, it'd be like a house with nobody living in it, yet, you know, like, like the audio part, like, really fills in. Like, we're talking about that emotional center kind of feeling and anchoring and the locating in the sense of, you know, putting, putting meaning to it all, like, like the feeling of meaning to it, I think, and like, yeah, that's how I think people will actually remember it and learn it. So, like, they've got the they got a visual part, they got the audio part. But I think, like, those all combined with the the emotional part, it's like, I think, I think that's what it'll set be. I mean, besides, it's just like being better content. I think one major thing that will set this thing apart is, I think people, it'll, like, stick into people. You know, I'm saying
Josh Lavine 42:30
yes, I think so, yeah, yeah. I'm actually pretty proud of the ebook too, because it feels like it's really meant to be a companion to the audio. Course, it's not. I mean, it could be a standalone book, sure, but it's, we wrote it without. There's not a lot of text in it. It's, there's, we kept it sparsish as a reference. And also, there's just, like, it's visually, just kind of nice and laid out, and there's tables and graphs and things like that. And so it's just it. We hope it's like a pleasant thing to just look at. You know, how
John Luckovich 42:59
many pages is it? 37 Yeah, nice. Yeah. You want to print that bitch out?
Josh Lavine 43:05
Yeah, yeah, baby. So, like, typically, when you create a product like the traditional business, I don't know traditional business wisdom is you you select a particular kind of customer, and you understand their demographic profile and what their wants and needs are, and you market it to them. So for example, business leaders who want to develop their EQ, or coaches and therapists who want to have a deeper relationships with their clients, or more quickly identify what's going on with their clients, or individuals who are seeking spiritual growth or something like that. And I have had just like, the hardest time thinking about like, wanting just even wanting to like narrow in. And I know, like, at some point maybe the Enneagram school has specific offerings for business leaders or for coaches and therapists, stuff like that. But it's kind of like, you know, if you build a vacuum cleaner, a vacuum cleaner works wherever there are floors. It's not like specifically for business office floors, you know, yeah, like or like specifically for kitchen floors. It's like the Enneagram is for anyone, anywhere where there are people, it's like, it's a people tool. And so anywhere where there are humans, the Enneagram is useful. And also, anywhere where you are, the Enneagram is useful because it's a tool for self awareness. And so, like, I think that a common question we're likely to get is like, who's the program for and it's just like, if you're interested in learning about yourself, the Enneagram spiritual development, inner work, that's what the program is for. And it's just a comprehensive overview of, like, what we think is the most powerful system for that stuff. And it would be very easy listening to this program to apply. Okay, the lessons that you're learning from it in a business context or in a therapy context, or in a friendship context or a relationship or whatever. So it's not, we're not marketing it specifically for couples or for business teams or whatever, but like, no matter where you are, this, this is a thing that could enhance that context for you.
John Luckovich 45:18
I think you know, this is very like, transparently, like, by our course, but I actually, which is that, like, there's a lot of people who, like, who know the engram really well, who've been part of like, any grammar, or listen to big hormone a long time, or just like, floated through different schools, or read a lot of books. But even still, like, sometimes I feel people do want, like, let's see, like, there's a lot of like, like, big hormone can be very specialized. And like, we've developed our own concepts and our own lexicon and our own understanding. And we don't just like, have, we don't have, like, a, here's Enneagram 101, so you can, like, steep in it. It's kind of like a deep dive that you just jump in. And then, you know, a lot of other material out there, or, like, schools or something like, as we've discovered, and as we've been saying for a long time, like, a lot of the fundamentals are off. Like, you know, a lot of schools think that type four is what nine say type four is because who are mistyped as fours, right? And it just like the conceptual drift and all that kind of stuff. So even though, even if you've, like, known the Enneagram and been steeped in it, like, this is a good, like getting to the root like, like a good going back to the basics, like the reloading the basics, but like a basics that probably has, well, a basics that has never been taught, like this, because a lot of the basics start in a really misaligned place, and then you have to, like, go through a bunch of learning to go re examine the foundations and see how the foundations were right or wrong. And then you're always kind of like, well, do I buy what these people say over here? Do I buy what they say over here? Like, what do I think about this? And I think that this is a really good thing to go, to go all the way back to the start, and, you know, even if you've already been steeped in the room for a long time,
Josh Lavine 47:26
yeah and yes, huge point. And also, like, you know, like we kind of talked about this earlier with just how, like, wrangling all the concepts for an intra course. But it's kind of like in our content universe, like you have the big hormone stuff you have, like the Enne grammar subscription service, which where you can watch them, type celebrities and stuff. But to enter into any one of these things, starting with their most recent episode, it's it's hard. You have to have a lot of context and knowledge before you can even enter into that and and at this point, people, you know, we're on, like, our 200th episode of bhe almost, and just things like this. So it's like, it would be a long journey to, like, catch up if you were to listen to the whole thing in sequence, to, like, really get to where everyone's at. So that's that was also part of the impetus to build an intro course, was to create a kind of more efficient on ramp for people, and to kind of harness all the discoveries that we've made in the last few years as well, that that kind of fill in some of the intro concepts that, I guess, really previously weren't really filled in, I think, like in the integral that last Yeah,
John Luckovich 48:33
yeah, totally Yeah. Cool. Well, I'm really excited for people to listen to it and get their thoughts and impressions. All right,
Josh Lavine 48:47
cool. Well, by our course, hopes you there our course,
John Luckovich 48:53
two starving Enneagram artists. Please help us. And
Josh Lavine 49:02
yeah, but seriously, thanks for watching my conversation with John. If you liked this conversation and you like us, then please click the like button or subscribe on YouTube. Or if you're listening to this as a podcast, you can also leave up to a five star review. It's a zero cost, very effective way to support me and our work that we do together with the Enneagram school and the show. And if also you're interested in buying the intro to the Enneagram course, then it is now available for pre sale. You can go to the Enneagram school.com and check it out. It'll be all over that web page. And once again, remember that for the next couple weeks, it is going to be available at 50% off of the full sale price as we launch. So we are thrilled to offer this and really excited to unveil it, and we hope you go check it out. And meanwhile, for my regular listeners, as you know the drill, typically in the show, it is not conversations like this that are super promotional. Often. It's conversations with people of different Enneagram types, taking you into their inner world and understanding what it's like to be a person of a different Enneagram type. And so if you think that you're a good candidate to be interviewed, I'd love to hear from you. I'm looking for all types. Oh, actually, I also launched a new like landing page for all the interviews, so you can go to the Enneagram school.com and check out on the menu top, it says Enneagram interviews, and go, you can actually see the interviews that are cataloged, and click on anyone that you'd like to listen to from there. And you can also see which of the types I don't have interviews of yet and which instinctual stackings I'm still missing some people on how they're kind of unequally weighted and stuff. And so I'd like to fill out the interview spectrum. So if you're a person who has an Enneagram type or an instinctual stacking that is one of the rarer ones, or one of the ones that I have not interviewed very, many people of I would love to hear from you. Preference goes to people who have been officially typed by the [email protected] who I believe are the world's most accurate Enneagram typers. And you can go to their [email protected] to check out their typing services and also their subscription service where you can watch them type celebrities in real time and make very fine tuned, accurate type distinctions. Okay, I think that is it for me. Thank you very much for watching, and I will see you next time. Thank
Unknown Speaker 51:17
you.
