Nicholas 0:00
It's interesting now over time, like contrasting presence with focus, folk like presence is just that immersion into whatever the experience is, whereas focus is intentionally excluding everything that's not what you want to focus on. So it's it's doubling down on particular domains, or one particular domain, so that you can gain dividends on your attention and not spread yourself in not disperse the whole nine dispersion of of passively paying attention.
Josh Lavine 0:38
Welcome to another episode of what it's like to be you. I'm Josh Lavine, your host, and today I'm joined by guest Nicholas Panjwani, who's a self preservation social nine. Wing 1936, tri fix, so Bermuda, nine, self preservation dominant. And we tackle a lot of really interesting nine themes in this episode, the dispersion of nine attention, and how that dispersion of attention makes their life force kind of diffuse and unfocused. We talk about his journey to learning how to take his life and his projects seriously. There's a way that previously, he was kind of hoping that they would figure themselves out, as opposed to really taking them by the hands and being in the driver's seat of them. And a really interesting discussion on time management, and in particular, time management as a person who's head last so we kind of explore that and understand what has taken for Nicholas to be able to actually commit to, for example, a budget or plan, and actually bring himself to it in a consistent way over time. Finally, we also talk about Nicholas's line to three and how he has really been committing to his self actualization recently, and how that has been motivated, both internally, because, you know, as a nine it's not he doesn't want to be told what to do. He wants to get there on his own, but also that the project of his self actualization is anchored to some things that are bigger than him, his relationship, and also his faith in his religion. Something else interesting about this episode I want to prime you for upfront is that right before we started recording, Nicholas drank a caffeinated drink called a Celsius, very strong caffeinated drink. And I bring this up because he's a self pressed nine, but there's this amazing journey that we track in real time of how when the drink starts hitting him, and how his nine impulse is to kind of tamp down the reaction. So if he were, for example, six or seven, he might let the caffeine express itself more. But for him, he gets almost overwhelmed by it, and actually feels like he has to get in control of it. So that kind of we talk about reducing the amplitude of the inner experience, which is just it was such a great real time example of nines controlling the intensity of their inner experience and not wanting to get overwhelmed by it. So before we get to the interview, I have one really important plug I want to give John lekovich and I have been working all year on our first ever recorded online intro to the Enneagram course, and it is almost here. We've officially finished recording it. I'm just in the final edits of it, and we're going to be releasing it in the next month or two. I'm really, really excited about it. It's really good. It's we decided to make it an audio program as opposed to a video program, so you can listen to it just like a podcast, but think of it like a highly edited, Super Value, dense, really crisp, clean intro to the Enneagram, and we cover all the basic concepts. So you know, presence, essence and personality, the centers of intelligence, instincts and the essential qualities and the passions. We chose to leave out some of the more advanced stuff, so we can just give you an on ramp into everything you need to know to understand types at a basic level. Then there's a whole section where we do deep dives on each of the types that are about 30 or so minute episodes on each type. And then we wrap up with information on how to take your own Enneagram journey into your own hands. So really excited about the intro course. Stay tuned for updates at the Enneagram school.com. And without further ado, I'm very excited for you to learn about type nine from my friend Nicholas. How do you know the Enneagram
Nicholas 4:15
it goes for me. It goes back to 2021. Is when I first, like, started learning about it. I may have heard about it once before that, but it was an it was an interesting, an interesting time for me to learn it. My dad's ex business partner, just like, sent me an audio book link didn't give much more context. And at the time, I had just gotten a job, just gotten a job at Starbucks, and also, like, quit. Quit smoking marijuana. And it was like, I had, like, no money. Everything was maxed out. It was and it was just like a very like, kind of a little bit of a reset moment, a sobering kind of moment. And that was when I found, found the Enneagram, and it was like, literally, a like replacement behavior for me, just to just to have have with me when I was in the car. And there's definitely like a theme for me of, like this frenetic, frenetic consumption of of all sorts of things in in my life. And the Enneagram has been, has been one of those things. And, yeah, so that was, that was, that was when I first, like, kind of dove, dove right into it. And then it wasn't until until January of 2023 that I got, like, officially typed. So it was like almost a year. So this was September 2021 when I first learned about it. So almost a year and a half of like, trying to figure it out on my own and just literally doing roundabout Circle, circle of going, going through, going through all the options and then, and probably combing through just about every, every resource that's that's out there, in terms of, yeah, every, every website that anybody has About the Enneagram, and all the descriptions and things, and every time I would read a new thing, it's like, Oh yeah, that sounds about right. That sounds about right. It's like, how can everything sound about right? Pretty, pretty much, except for, except for nine, yeah, it's Yeah, yeah.
Josh Lavine 7:02
So, well, you said a couple things that I want to pull out, that the Enneagram was a replacement behavior. Can you talk? Can you talk about the substitution and what, what the behavior is doing, or what's Yeah?
Nicholas 7:22
Well, so it's, it's literally like something to latch on to. I've heard, I've heard David, David Gray talk about a couple times about the, like oral fixation of of sevens. And so that's like, honestly, something I I identify with a lot, even though there's, like, the only seven in my typing is a wing on my six fix, which is my last fix. So go figure. But still, this sense of like I need to be, maybe it's just an attachment thing of like I need to be in, like relating to something, and even maybe more specifically, nine Like this, like tempering, tempering kind of relationship. So you what I mean by that is, I like, go in. I like, I have gone into very many, like, intense experiences, either voluntarily or involuntarily. And then what, what I feel like my personality is trying to do is then it's like finding, finding what the level is of, of too much, versus, versus not enough. And so it's like going into it and then feeling like, Okay, let me, let me, let me. Now take a step back from it, but only, but going into, into kind of an immersive experience to to find what, what if any like limitations there are.
Josh Lavine 9:09
So, okay, so we were talking about the body center versus the image center, and your experience of being a body type. And do you want to pick that thread back up?
Nicholas 9:26
Well, I think that, like you were, like you were saying that the direction of the conversation for you is going to be basically guided by, guided by like, what, what you are perceiving image wise. And I think I kind of started to talk about it, which was like, What I say is dependent on if it feels right in my
Josh Lavine 9:53
body, yes, yeah.
Nicholas 9:58
And also I. Uh, definitely what I'm feeling in my body right now is like, then, then the the Celsius. I'm feeling the Celsius right now.
Josh Lavine 10:11
Just tell people what a Celsius is, yeah,
Nicholas 10:13
yeah, yeah. Um, so even before the conversation, like before, or sorry, before I had the Celsius, like during, just during the Celsius
Josh Lavine 10:23
is an energy drink, right? Energy drink, yeah.
Nicholas 10:28
So RAS raspberry, peach flavor. So yesterday I saw it in in in the fridge. And I normally don't drink Celsius. I do drink coffee quite a bit, but I saw the Celsius in the fridge. And I was like, Ooh, that's gonna, that's gonna hit really, really nicely tomorrow morning. And I don't typically drink them, but I know that they're like, kind of another level when it comes to just the right now, it's just like that, like jittery, shaking feeling. But it again, it's that it's the thing of, like, okay, it's this really intense thing, and then my role is to manage that intensity, to try and, like, kind of even it out, but also, like, channel it into into something productive. And yeah, being basically being able to calm things down on the outside. So it's like, it's this, like, very jittery uncom thing, but then I'm calming it. That's like, kind of the Yeah, the through line for a lot of different things.
Josh Lavine 11:38
That's a beautiful analogy. And actually real time experience that you're having. So, yeah, because I saw you, I saw you take that Celsius down about 30 minutes ago, maybe 45 minutes ago, right? Yeah. And so now it's like, really hitting you.
Nicholas 11:53
It's
Josh Lavine 11:55
well, so first of all, like, what's, what's, I'm just tracking you being a self press type, just the seeing into the store yesterday, buying it, thinking about when you're gonna have it the not
Nicholas 12:07
even your store, just it was, it was already just in the fridge, just in the fridge. No purchasing decision. I probably would not have gotten it if it was in the store. Okay, yeah.
Josh Lavine 12:18
So I was just, well, I just self press types are funny to me, in the way that, in the way that they Yeah, just like all the thought that goes into the experience of their physical body and how it's going to be in a moment, small way and but anyway, so that's, that's an instinctual topic, but I kind of want to come back to this thing about you modulating the intensity of your experience. And you kind of like, basically, like something is happening in you physiologically right now, based on this thing that you just consumed, you know, and if you were, for example, a six or just, I don't know, a different type, then you might find yourself kind of letting the energy take you to a more frenetic or erratic outer place, but instead, you find yourself kind of feel very out of control. Yeah, it's interesting. Yeah,
Nicholas 13:16
not actually, but like, right, right. Like, I like, I know that I could let it go and I and I want, I want it to facilitate kind of that conversational piece, but I don't. I don't want it to be erratic, but you're going keep
Josh Lavine 13:38
going. Well, I'm just experiencing in real time. Your your non kind of way of tamping down your inner experience or or trying to contain it within a certain absolute value of intensity, you know, where you know, like a Celsius might make you go like this. You know, oscillation, but, but you're kind of like you want to keep it within a certain envelope function. So the, you know, the reducing the amplitude of it to get a little, I don't know, geeky for functions, yeah, yeah. I want to read some of what you wrote for sure to you, and then see what it what it evokes so and this conversation, well, there, there you. There were two different emails. You sent an email a long time ago when we've like, first considered the conversation, and then a new email yesterday was kind of some new topics, but I want to just throw a couple ideas out, so, um, some of the bullet points that stood out to me are fake it till you make it. Never feeling skilled or solid enough to be really independent, but needing to be on my own, slash no calendar available to life happening. So. Yeah. And then that was from the previous email. And then the more recent email, you said something about creating your own schedule and following through on your promises to yourself and others. And those feel related, yeah, yeah. And so I wonder, if you just what's, what's there for you, what's, how are you experiencing those themes, yeah,
Nicholas 15:23
it's the idea of, like, discipline creates freedom. In a nutshell, like what I want is freedom. And there was just a time period where I was kind of just pushing against the idea of, like, doing doing normal life, like doing normal adult life, or whatever, um, but going too extreme in terms of, like, just, Okay, I'm just literally not going to plan anything and just go with it and just like, do, do whatever feels right. Quote feels right in the moment. And and now, like I will set aside time to that is like that time, not exclusively, but a large part of the purpose of that time block is to schedule out the week or two ahead and being just much, much, much, much, much, much more intentional about how I want to allocate my my time and just other and other resources as well. The Celsius is getting really bad. Like, Oh man,
Josh Lavine 16:58
what are you experiencing? Like,
Nicholas 17:03
like, the the the frequency of the jitters is just like, or the the time period between each individual jitter is just like, zero. It's like, I'm cheering, and I like, wanted the water to help me just like, okay, study it, but it's like, I can't control it right now. Truly,
Josh Lavine 17:23
like, control it's like a true self pres nine moment that you're having right now. Yeah,
Nicholas 17:32
oops. So, yeah, just being, being more intentional and then, and I think it's both respecting my own and then when I do have meetings with people, like respecting, respecting their time as well, because, as I am being more intentional about it, it's like understanding, like, also the cost of, if you like, depending on, depending on the person and Depending on their schedule for that day. It's like rescheduling one meeting may like throw their whole throw their whole day off, or their whole morning off. And it's like understanding some of those implications and not being so just like in my own world about it has been a shift for me, and just like and because and because, now that I am being more intentional about it for myself, it's like just moving that one thing may do the same for me. So I think it's also like, there's, there's all value piece both, both with nine and three. I think that's noteworthy. It's like the the value of nine is just like thinking that I even like matter at all in the world, and the value of three is like the like the value in the eyes of others sort of thing. So it's like both of those are super strong for me.
Josh Lavine 18:59
This you used the word freedom before and and I'm interpreting that. I think what you're I think I'm understanding it correctly, that you're using it and kind of like the freedom, the autonomy, sense of the body sensor, like freedom to just to ride the wave of your own life force wherever it's taking you, kind of, in the moment, or how, or is that, is that a fair characterization? Yeah,
Nicholas 19:25
to to an extent. I mean, it's like,
Josh Lavine 19:31
or without having to constrain yourself to annoying life demands, I guess,
Nicholas 19:38
yeah. I mean, even in in the sense of like you can, you can imagine a lot of people just in general, but also a lot of self press nines as well. Like you, you need. It's like the going, going to sleep in a job. It's like you're just plugging away, or whatever it is. It's like you maybe even kind of what I'm. Imaging is even the more 998, stereotype of just like, doing like, say, doing like a construction job or something like that. It's like they're, they're in their body. They're using their body like people aren't like they've, you know, you've chosen a certain path to an extent, but and then, like in the in the moment to moment, day to day, it's like people aren't bothering you, that kind of thing you're just doing. You're doing what you're told, but you're still like, you still feel like you don't have to, you don't have to step outside of your comfort zone, in that sense. So it's like, there's for for some it's like that like comfort zone sort of thing. But the way that I like, I want that autonomy is like, I want to be able to again. I think before it was, like, on a whim or in a moment, I would want to be able to just, like, switch it up and like, do something other than what quote was planned, but now maybe, like, on a week time scale, like, be able to have, like, a couple different things going on that I'm choosing that's that's not just like The humdrum, like same thing every single day, yeah? So, like, the freedom to, like, work, work from a coffee shop and, like, plug away on the agenda that I deem important, yeah, not that somebody else deems important. I think that's that's huge.
Josh Lavine 21:38
That's big, yeah. So, how is that? How's that working for you? Now, what's sounds like you've made a pretty radical shift?
Nicholas 21:45
Yeah, I think it's just it. I mean, it's, it's radical, if you take the two different time stamps. But like, you know, the way of getting there is very incremental, sure. Yeah, yeah, that makes sense. And I think a big thing does come down to the finance piece of, like, just in in the short term, like, if you do want the freedom, like, being just really tight about about where your where your money is going. Like, it literally, like, I discovered this crazy concept called the budget in April, yeah? Like, I just, it was just like, Oh, it'll, you know, it'll take care of itself, kind of thing of, yeah, like, like, spent, like, spend it now, and don't worry about where it's gonna come from later. And I think, like, again, to an extent, there is. There's a truth to that. But it was like, it is, it is going to get figured out in the future, because, because I made the decision to not figure it out in the present or in the past. So just kind of like, okay, you know, strip away all the unnecessary stuff for right now, figure out and and, because part of that is like, then it does give you the freedom in the space and the flexibility to then you, then you don't have to, just, like, constantly be chasing where, like, where it's going to come from to to just avoid bankruptcy, which is where I've just, you know, been, been there too many times. And so it's just like, again, making, making the little, little commitments and having having those stack on top of each other,
Josh Lavine 23:46
it strikes me as as particularly mental last what you're saying, like, particularly the fusion piece. And actually, I relate to this as also a mental last person. So it's kind of like, you know, when you have body and heart sensor, just like you're, if you're, if you're just thinking about the demands upon your life force and your energy and how that's going to be, and your image like before your mental Center, which is kind of like the Planning Center, yeah, that kind of stuff can really just not be prioritized for a long time. So I mean, having, having a plan, you know, it's the whole thing. And it actually, it brings up, for me, a really important piece about, like, a conflict between the mental Center and the body Center, which I've also experienced a lot, which is, like, when you have a plan and you set a schedule for yourself or a budget for yourself, then you do actually have to restrict yourself to be within, to stay within the plan. You know, you grid something out, and then you're like my meetings at two, and then four and then six, and then you actually have to get your body to be there in those moments. And so you have to sacrifice a certain level of just freedom in the moment and autonomy to be able to do that right. Right? And so, yeah, I mean, I get that a lot. I mean, as a, as a mental last type, so even as a core three, I would say as a core three, like, you know, stereotype of core three is that you're just kind of, I don't know, always trying to crush it. And it's, it's even as a core three, I relate to what you're saying about how it's been hard to kind of get myself to commit to a certain, I don't know, a schedule, or these kinds of things, yeah?
Nicholas 25:27
Well, I think maybe against the difference between the three nine stem versus like having a three six stem first, like the three six stems like, is more the like,
Josh Lavine 25:35
Absolutely, work practical for grind, yeah? Grind,
Nicholas 25:39
totally in this world, versus, like the 339, in either orders, like you are in the world, to the extent that you can step out of it and reflect on how you are being in the world.
Josh Lavine 25:58
Yeah, you just something else you said about the budget, for example, or I'll read another thing you said. You said you're taking finances seriously now, versus treating it as something that was going to figure itself out. And that's a pretty, a classic kind of nine phrasing of a something like it'll figure itself out. You know, like this will take care of itself. And there's a way that no matter what your instinctual stacking is, when you're a core nine, it's kind of like there's a there's a reflexive or habitual passivity towards even your dominant instinct. So you would think that as a self pres nine, you would, you know, like, I don't know a person who's not familiar with the interview might think a self pres nine, oh, that's a nine who's kind of, like, more proactive about their self pres needs. And maybe to a degree, that's true, but there's also kind of, like, a way that nines, my experience of nines is that they'll kind of only put in, like the just enough energy to get things sort of copacetic, but not actually moving to the line of three, which is like self actualizing and then committing to themselves in both a longer term way and Also, like a more full way, where it's like, I want to, I really want to handle this thing, you know, and I have a vision for myself, and I want to materialize that. So even, even so, like, as a nine kind of being seaweed in the tides of life relative to your dominant instinct, and just hoping it'll figure itself out, versus taking charge.
Nicholas 27:38
Yeah, I think I part of it is also, I think this is in John's book, actually instincts that it's like, or it might have, or it might be on the Enneagram or website, but it's like the not taking care of your body or your finances as a self pres type, or just not taking care of your body and finances could be like, you could view it from a self pres DOM or a self pres last place. It's like, the reason that you're not focusing on it is because somewhere like you have the confidence that when you do put energy into it, you can handle it like it's like, if you actually, if you actually try it, it's like it, it would not be hard. So there's like, that confidence in it, or it's just like, or you're truly blind to it, as if you have it in in life, if you have self present last place. So it's like, it's the interesting dichotomy between the first and last instinct in that sense. But I think also what, what I got from what you're saying is, like it deciding, like, what the standard is of it being, you said, copacetic, but it's like, whatever the bait, whatever the normal is for you at a given time that's like, what you're trying to get to I'm trying to get to. So it's like, Whatever you decide, whatever you decide, the standard is, it's like you are if you go above it or below, it's like you're gonna go back to whatever the thermostat is telling you it's okay to be at. So for a while, for me, it was just like, if I had spending power on credit cards, like, then I had money. Yeah. So it's just like, that was where, after again, discovering some of Dave Ramsey's stuff and implementing it back in April of just budgeting, it's like, okay, you, you don't use credit cards. Like, that's the standard. Just if you we're getting out of debt, we're following, following the steps to get out of debt and stick to the budget and all of that. So like that, that becoming the standard and that becoming the normal. Um. Is definitely a growth path, but it also still fits in with the model of self. Press nine, I think
Josh Lavine 30:11
what is motivating you to make all these life improvements?
Nicholas 30:21
I motivating, so in,
well, yeah, so I mean there's, there's like the ideal side, and then there's like the implementing side, all right, so it's like the ideals always been there. But again, it's the putting off, the putting into practice, part of it that has been the the history and now is changing. So I'm dating a girl that I want to marry, and it's like the impetus is to a be in, be in a financial place where I feel like I can both continue to follow, follow my path and then support the foundation of that, um, yeah, and yeah, just not, not wanting her to be in a in a lesser position by being with me than than by being, you know, by herself and and taken care of by her family. So, I mean, that's the simplest way to say that's but it's like still for it's still for me, like it's not for her, like she's never put the pressure on me. So it's like it was my decision, like it felt like my decision.
Josh Lavine 32:02
Because what's that thing? What's the, what's what's for you about that?
Nicholas 32:10
Like, what like I want, I want to feel like I'm handling it, like handling things I want to feel and I think it's just the the con, maybe the context of the relationship just brings it to light more brings more urgency to it. I'm pretty sure she's a self, Pres self, Pres social six, wing seven. So it's like, like she thinks about that stuff, like she thinks about the future a lot anyways, naturally. So it's just viewing, viewing that tendency, up close and personal. It's like, it's, it kind of completes a little bit that, that last fix for me, I guess so it's like, I had like, like, we're very we're very similar, very, very similar, but just again, that the dominance of what her attention is on just kind of makes a little bit more active for me, and it internally, At least, enables me to be more proactive. Because the worst thing for me would be for for me to continue being the way I had been, and then for her to need to tell me something. I wouldn't want that for either of us, like, because I think from the negative side of like, what I'm what I again, what I don't want is to be told what to do, uh huh. So being being told to get my shit together would be worse than me actually just being proactive about it. For once it's good, yeah,
Josh Lavine 33:58
yeah, yeah. What happens? What happens for you, what's what's like? If, can you give me an example of a moment, or just, maybe, just talk about the energy of what it's like when someone is kind of telling you you need to get your shit together, like, what happens for you? There no,
Nicholas 34:19
no one has told me that actually does. No, that's not true. My dad, my dad, has definitely told me that. But like, it was interesting because he, he, he would say to me, and this was definitely in the extreme of when I was like, it'll be fine, like I'm I'm figuring i For me being the one to say, like, I'm figuring it out, like I'm still in process, or whatever, when he's like, like, you need to figure out, like, what your plan is, like, what? Like, what are you doing? Like, what, what are you What path are you choosing? Because it was like at the time it was, I had finished my junior year of college at. At Duke and my my plan, my previous like path was so I was, I studied biomedical engineering and then was going to go to med school, but I had this just like I don't, I don't want to, I don't want to spend, like, another 10 or 12 years in school before I then get to have a career. And then a big part of it also was like I wanted to, like I didn't. I didn't growing up, I had wanted to play play baseball in college at least, and had a wrist injury in high school that, like, it just wasn't the same after that. So then I kind of gave up, if you will, on on that, on that possibility, and just, like, kind of double down on, like, the academic side of things, because that's also like, just what I felt like I was supposed to do. And also, at the time, my mom was sick with cancer, and so it was like, that was the priority in the family. It was like, then I just like, kind of HID, hid my own desires and sense of priority. So like, I didn't ask for the the rehabilitative help or the the help to get in front of colleges and things like that. So just like, and then, and then my mom died after my junior year. So then when I was actually applying to colleges. It was like, just my dad there, and he emphasized academics, always Yeah, both while my mom was sick, and just always, of like it was at the time, it was helping him to not need to worry about us. And he's, I'm pretty sure, a six as well. And just like, he was trying to, just, like, manage everything and at the home. And it was just like, you just need to, like, you need to focus on school. But would like, say it very like, frantically. And it was like, okay, like, I get the point kind of thing, even if I wasn't reacting outwardly that way, or even thinking about it, just like doing, doing what was going to be easiest for everyone. And then after my junior of college, that was, or like, as it was, nearing the end of my junior of college, it was like, I didn't want to, I didn't want to, like, not, not give it a chance, so I decided to take a gap year, go back home and then train to try out for the varsity team, just to see if it was even possible. So that was like, then when my dad was asking me, like, okay, like, what's your plan? Like, what are you gonna do? But again, it was like, like, you need to figure this out right now. It's like, I am trying. But so then that was actually when, when COVID happened. And so it was like, the the team I was going to be playing on in the summer to to, like, Get Game Time reps, to even see if it was possible to go and try out in the fall that kept getting pushed back. So it was just like it wasn't happening. Basically, that is also when I, like, started playing golf. We and we had, like, we had played here and there growing up, but, like, I never really enjoyed playing golf. It it that it wasn't until I could start going, pretty much every day talk about kind of like a replacement behavior. Like, instead of going and doing like the training I was doing for baseball, just practicing on my own, then I was then I just went in and did golf stuff, and have continued to improve, you know, for the last like four years. So then in the fall, instead of going back to in person school, I ended up doing, like, starting online classes, still, still in my major and everything. But yeah, so that was, that was kind of where it was. It was, like, seemingly unclear what was going to happen. And then in the spring of 2021, or I'll backtrack, in the fall of 2020 I got a concussion while playing baseball, then ended up taking further, like, leave of absence from from finishing my undergrad. So that that was like, kind of like my dad was like, What are you doing? But for me, it was like. Yeah, then also trying to deal with this concussion, because it was like the symptoms were persisting for several, several months. And then during that medical, medical leave portion, I moved out to Colorado and etc.
Josh Lavine 40:21
And now, as you said in your email, golf is life
Nicholas 40:25
that, I mean, yeah, that was, you know, that was also the phrasing of that was, was last year, uh, but okay, yeah, I've been, you know, I've been since, I would say, since 2021 like, when I ultimately, when I decided to move out to Colorado, it was also like, I like, I really, like, loved golf at that point. Like, truly, like, had fallen, fallen in love with or, or you could say, gotten addicted to, like, whatever you want to say, like, during 2020 it was like, this, is it? Like, I want to, I want to figure out, figure out how to do this all the time. So, like, I've been just trying to figure out how to make that happen now for the last several years, and it's kind of just like now coming, coming to fruition, where it's like possible for me to do that day to day, like, I got a, I got an annual pass to golf course here. So I'm going to be, like, really, really pushing now to to get as good as I can. And, you know, we'll see what happens. Like, obviously, the competition. The competition is insane. There's a lot of good golfers, but if I can, if I can make it, I want to, and then it's just like making everything else to just like, support that for now, you know, through the other the other things that I'm that I'm doing, what I'm
Josh Lavine 42:04
wondering now is, what's your vision for your life, and what have you committed to? And in a lot of our communication, you use the word impact a lot like you want to have a big impact on people. And, yeah, I'm wondering what that's, what that's about, what and what kind of impact do you want to have, and do you see that happening through golf or through building a business around the kind of, yeah, fitness and body centered, kind of not body Enneagram, body center, but the Yeah, yeah, all that stuff, fitness, yes, yeah,
Nicholas 42:48
the answer, the answer is yes to your question, to your multi part question. So the vision is, so I have a an LLC, a company called Nirvana, rotational performance. So ultimately, the vision for that company is to enable more people to have a career in sports. Let's call it golf, golf and or baseball. But honestly, more than likely, it's it. I'm gonna just be doubling down on golf for the foreseeable future, both obviously for myself and then also for people that kind of come through. So the the vision and the idea is to Yeah, is to help people both get good enough where they either could see a possibility of, like, trying to make it on the the highest level, um, or somehow make almost like my own league, if you will, like I was gonna say rival, but I don't even think it's like necessarily rival, but just an equally an equally Large league that just enables more people to do it professionally. I mean, just and then, and then breaking that down into all the different business aspects that are involved in that, but at least for the for the time being, kind of the the the niche, or the the way of of focusing that is to, right now have it be just like a training and improvement thing, both in terms of the skill and then also the the fitness and and body work, like recovery side of things, to enable people to do it from a physical perspective. Uh. And then build in different like sponsorship or scholarship opportunities for for people who kind of were in a similar situation to me, where it's like, like, maybe they're they're not at the level where they're like being seen by like colleges and stuff, like going the kind of the mainstream route, but that they spend, like, a gap year or something like with me, or like with my, with my group of people, training intensely to get themselves to the point where either they go the traditional route or they try and make it on, make it on their own. So that's that's more or less the the outline of the vision to, yeah, again part and then so that's, there's like the the sports side of things, but then also helping deliver people, the business type skills to figure out how to make it on their own, so that they're not necessarily dependent on a coach or a an organization seeing them and seeing their potential, that they can create create their own path through gaining all sorts of skills that are like kind of fast tracking forward, like whether you know, whether it's sales or or coaching other people, and developing The financial literacy and the habits and things to to prevent them from going, like, basically going, going the way I did, in terms of just like falling off, falling off the map, entirely, of of that, that whole, like, professional seeking world, in the world of sports, from that 1818, to 22 year range, it's just like, kind of providing, providing a haven for for people to not, not have the exposure to, like the typical college scene, if you will, of just like the drinking and partying or whatever, even if, even if someone is an athlete, like they're kind of exposed to that one way or another, giving like, because I do feel like that's such an important time in in development in order to be able to set up a foundation for their life. So even if it's like, you know, taking taking that time to is basically take taking the time to develop so that then you can adequately decide your career trajectory, whether it's in sports or kind of sports adjacent, if you're just an you know, you've been an athlete your Life, and want to be in the sports industry. Um, uh, without the and, and basically, if you, if you don't have already have, like, a scholarship set up where, like your, your education is getting paid for. In some sense, it's like a place, a place where you can go to to develop. That's much, much, much lower risk in terms of, like your the financial risk of whether you know, depending on what kind of school you go to, like committing the 1000, 10s and 1000s and hundreds and 1000s of dollars.
Josh Lavine 48:38
Yeah, what's important to you about that vision.
Nicholas 48:44
I mean, it's, it's what I would have wanted. You know, it's what I it's what I would have wished I I had, like, just a place and a group of people with perspective and an acknowledgement of how, how I think and how and how I work. It's like, want, like, still wanting the like, like, loving the intellectual study of things, but being able to do it like kind of on my on my own, on my own rhythm, and being be able to explore the things that I'm interested in, and and have the again, the time freedom to be able to train and improve my physical skill,
Josh Lavine 49:40
yeah, yeah. So in your email to me, you you one of your other other bullet points was this, it says domains of obsessiveness and paying attention and paying the we're paying is in quotes. So I'm wondering what you meant by that. And yeah, that. Relates to what you're kind of going through. Yeah,
Nicholas 50:05
so in light of what I was just saying, or to clarify what I was just saying, and like we the resources that we're given are, like, we have our time, but in in what we do with our time, it's like, how we, how we spend our attention, and what we, what we focus on is, is what we are valuing in a given moment, yes and yeah and so, and it's like, and it's thus what we pay attention to that grows and compounds over time, so we can either split our attention and therefore not really be valuing any one particular thing. I think that's been a big problem for me. It's like, I find, I find, I have found value in just simply taking things in and simply learning things for the sake of learning. But when it comes to and that's where, like, the domains of obsessiveness comes up, like for the when I was learning the Enneagram, it was just like just going all the way in and just taking, taking in everything, without, without acknowledging the consequences, or without acknowledging all the things that I'm ignoring, by focusing on that and kind of letting my letting my interest just grip me, which, again, is not necessarily a bad thing, but it does have consequences, because there's only so there's only so much that you can focus on. And I and gain, gain the dividends on your on your attention. Yeah, basically viewing attention as as the currency. But then, more specifically, like throughout my life, like I have been described as incredibly quote focused. But what it is is like, I immerse myself into whatever the experience is. It's just being very present. So it's interesting now over time, like contrasting presence with focus, folk like presence is just that immersion into whatever the experience is, whereas focus is intentionally excluding everything that's not what you want to focus on. So it's it's doubling down on particular domains or one particular domain, so that you can gain dividends on your attention and not spread yourself, then not disperse the whole nine dispersion of Yeah, of passively paying attention. And it's the same idea of like, then the finances, of like just dispersing the finances and letting desire grip you and paying, basically paying, paying for it later by not now, paying the cost of excluding things from what you're paying attention to.
Josh Lavine 53:43
I love this I love this topic. Just to add some of my own commentary on it, I you know, I think of attention as a heart sensor phenomenon, and I like the way you described it, like what you pay attention to implies what you value. And so this dispersion of attention that happens in the nine when you're just sort of available to your experience and and it's like, whoa. You know, the world just immersed in wherever your attention is going. It has that kind of, like, innocent baby like, wow, kind of quality, yeah. But it's not like coalesced. It's not, it's not, it's not consolidated into a firm, you know, solidity like you, you know, and yeah, this idea of being able to focus and choose what you pay attention to, as opposed to just letting attention be a passive thing is a an enormous part of inner work. And, yeah, it's kind of striking me now, in a in a deeper way than I've ever I've experienced it of just just the dispersion of attention in type nine is. What creates the is one of the, one of the facets of the type, nine type structure that keeps them asleep, you know. And nine going to three is the actual kind of bringing, bringing some focus to your attention, to actually pay attention to what you value. Yeah, yeah, it's cool. So, you know, we've talked about how, like bringing your mental center in, and, for example, setting a budget or setting a schedule and making a decision about, I value this. I'm going to do this. This is, this is the path I choose, making a conscious, active choice, and then summoning yourself to actually stay within the lane that you've picked for yourself, as opposed to just be available in dispersed. Um, what I'm wondering is, like, what, what has helped you with that? What is helping you with that?
Nicholas 55:55
I think the act of making a budget is like you have the line, but like you see it, you have the feedback, yeah, right, and you see what you are valuing by, by your actions. So it's like you you are, and it the part of, part of the dispersion, again, is, is the lack of having the priorities, is lack of having your life as a priority. I think that's a big it's the whole like not mattering thing of nine, right, right. Like not like not viewing, not viewing, the the impact of your life, or just not registering it, not having not being able to take in the feedback of what your the impact of your life is. I think that's interesting. Then, also contrasting with three, again, of three is all about the getting the feedback on, on what your impact is on. And, you know, that's kind of like instinct dependent, again, of of just how, of how your life force is being, is being received.
Josh Lavine 57:21
Yeah, and,
Nicholas 57:22
and it's like, like, I do, I do care. I do care about how I'm being received and and yet not being able to internalize that a lot of times as like, or rather catastrophizing, even like if, if I wasn't here, it wouldn't matter to people like viewing the impact as just so insignificant, like understanding and noting the impact, but feeling like I could be so much more, is a way of minimizing the impact that I do have, and also minimizing the feedback that people do give me. I see, okay, it's like, there's a, there's a filter on, on, what if any feedback I do let in because, and maybe it's just like a fundamental assumption of like, either it's a like, they don't actually mean it mean the feedback that they're offering, or that, yeah, they're just, like, trying to please or be nice. Or here's where it really gets tricky, is that oftentimes the domains of the feed, the positive feedback that I've been getting, I either don't know, or I doubt, or it just doesn't actually matter to me, and that's what's registering. It's like, you're giving me this like, oh, like, thank you so much. But it's like, okay, like, I like, it was just, it was either just so natural for me to do whatever I was doing, it didn't feel like a great effort, or it was like, there's no heart connection to whatever the offering was. And that's, again, maybe another interesting three piece of like, you may be getting the feedback, but actually registering to your true heart of like, what actually matters, what is the substance of what matters to be able to prioritize the actions and the. But the overall domains in which you submit your life force and attention to,
Josh Lavine 1:00:08
yeah, you know, from the core three point of view, what I experience is, if I'm not valuing my own offering already from the inside, then it doesn't matter what I what, how people receive. I mean, it's nice to get accolades and admiration and positive perception, but it disperses or doesn't land inside. It's actually, it's a way that three goes to nine, you know, in disintegrated way where it's like, I don't know how to say I'm noticing a lot of similarities between the way you describe yourself and the way I experienced myself. We both had that 9339, stem upfront. And there's a way that you know historically when I haven't been clear about who I am and what I'm doing and why I'm doing it, and why it's important to me, and valuing myself from the inside out, then I am essentially sleepwalking through life. I'm sort of just a ghost in the world, even if I'm putting a lot of effort into something or doing something that people find impressive or admirable, whatever it's like, it doesn't actually land in me. And other people's perception of me kind of disperses inside and has no substance. There's like an inner substance that has to be coalesced first before that can actually land
Nicholas 1:01:38
like so when you said substance, the next word that just popped into my mind is weight, right? Weight? It's like, heaviness, yeah, yeah. And then it also, then kind of triggered, like, if you, like, when you're, when you're determining the atomic weight of a substance, right? It's like you have, like, a weighting function of, like, okay, all the different isotopes, and you take the weighted average, right? A weighted average, and that goes again to like, the whole attention thing. It's like, you can have like, depending on if it is like, how much of a percentage of the overall pie. It is like, you can have different domains of interest or even expertise, but it's like, how are you slicing up the overall, the overall, uh, budget of attention, yeah. And how is that impacting the whole it's like, if you have like, okay, 80% it's like, you can split tactically. You can split up into like, okay, 8020 of like, 80 is the main thing. And then 20 is like miscellaneous sort of things, but just the overall idea of what has the most weight in your life, yeah, and what is the priority? Priorities are nowhere that's been coming up a lot for me lately.
Josh Lavine 1:03:02
Yeah, I can see that. Yeah. So I'm noticing the time, but I want to check with you to see what else is here. Is there anything that we haven't discussed that feels like it has energy for you?
Nicholas 1:03:15
I mean, I feel like I could go on all day, just like, like, I really have loved my study of the Enneagram, and then now it feels much, much more like in the background, it's no longer doesn't have as much weight in terms of my paying attention again, like that, right? Like, going, going and going and getting something, think that, like, that's associated with, like, the whole paying idea of, like, I'm not going in getting now, more information about the Enneagram, like, as part of the, as part of my budgeting, like, I decided to cancel my Enneagram, or, like, the, I don't know if they changed the name of the Dark Arts Academy, but just like the subscription of of watching the typing classes and stuff, just like, just because right now, that's, that's not the priority for for me, even though, like, when I did have it, I watched, everything, and that's kind of like part of the just part of the part of the way that that I, that I operate, is I feel like I have to, just like, devour or consume or totally be beat in something if I'm going to entertain it at all. So I think that's where the where a lot of this stuff comes in as well. But in terms of all of the different model, models of viewing the Enneagram itself, and just it's, it's applicability, I feel like it, it can talk about paying dividends. I feel like it continues to pay dividends. In terms of like I spent all the time. Um, in a condensed period studying like, instead of letting, instead of letting it disperse over a super duper long period of time, like, I want to pack as much into this, like, initial investment period as possible, and then allow like, if I need more, like, any kind of refresher, I'll do, like, just a one off sort of thing. And again, this applies to a lot of different domains, but like, go, go really intense, be really focused and immersed, and then allow the dividends to be to be paid according to the overall priority in my in my life, at a given period of time. But
Josh Lavine 1:05:42
yeah, yeah, yeah, cool. Well, yeah, it's interesting. Like, one of the other themes that you brought up in your emails was this, well, I guess addiction to consuming information versus applying it. And there's something my experience of you is that there's something more on your front foot about how you're approaching your life, which was motivated or kind of inspired by maybe some of the knowledge that you acquired, but it kind of has spurred you to action or to kind of construct your life in a different way that's not as consumptive, more like, I guess, constructive or productive. Yeah,
Nicholas 1:06:39
I think a big part of it. Also, in addition to being, being, being in the relationship that I'm in, it's, it's a real like, the reason that the relationship feels so important and like, yeah, significant and carries weight all all that stuff is because it's, it's like, sent, it's centered on faith for both of us. Like, I kind of it was, you know, literal, literal come to Jesus moment when I, like, had my last like, bout of smoking marijuana, because that's that's been a whole like, on and off, on and off again. Like, yeah, addictive, a strong, a strong for or, and a strong against, like, at the different periods of time, and yet a perpetual conflict. Like, I still think about it, I guess they'll think about wanting to do it, but it's just like, again, it's not on the budget, and it's not just like not going, not following through with taking the steps to go and get it basically right is tactically what it comes down to. But the reason for that is one of the last times that I had it is like I had a, you know, I was in my bathroom and already, just, like, on, on my knees, and, like, closed my eyes, and then I had, like, a vision, a vision of the cross in my mind and and had this like moment of like rescaling, because, kind of despite some of the nine stuff like I I feel like I did have a very inflated ego, from the perspective of I was deciding what I thought was important or not, and elevated both my potential and and and my my intellect and my own depth To the level of like God in a sense. And I just had again, this re reorientation of like the size of me versus the size of the infinite, you know. And and just felt this compulsion, then to humble myself and not and not be so, like, like, I used the word reckless earlier on, but it's really just, like, careless. Maybe that's a different distinction. Yeah, it's a good distinction. Yeah, like, reckless feels almost like in the more SEVEN, SEVEN domain of like, genuine, like, affecting, negatively affecting other people's lives, because like, assertive and like people feel it, whereas careless is just like that, not having the priority lost in the sauce. Yeah, yeah, um, and that. And again, the priority now is like, okay, literally the first thing, first thing I do each day now is like, I go to go, go to God, go to the the true resource and and humble myself and allow all of the personality based patterns of just not not to interrupt myself too much, but like the whole not mattering thing, I think of nine for me has shown up is like other people aren't actually reflecting how much I feel like I should be mattering to them. Wow. I feel like people should, should be prioritizing me more than they are. I feel like people should be paying attention to me more than they are. They're ignoring me. And so that's like the nine ego in a sense. I think it's like not really not wanting to be ignored. And in some of some of my recent in some of the my like daily daily prayers, just like I'll write them down, and in kind of noting down some of that stuff, what actually stands out to me is truly flipping that on its head. Of, that's what, you know, that's how, that's how God feels, of like, it's not about people paying attention to this guy right here. It's about the fact that I'm actually not paying attention to what truly matters, which is God enough. You know it's like, the more we can just put our attention on God and let, let, then God decide how our lives should be oriented in the world thereafter. It talk about bringing things into perspective of like, okay, there's there's our there's this life. But if you're oriented more broadly to eternity, then it's like this life, then can be a vehicle and a tool to to be, to be useful to other people for God's purposes, instead of trying to either just be useful for, like, a self Prezi, like, just, I want to, I want to feel like I'm taking care of in the world, by the world. It's just kind of reorienting. And again, just to like, like, why aren't people paying attention to me? It's like, no, like, why? It's like, why aren't people paying attention to what truly matters, which is beyond anything that could be in this world.
Josh Lavine 1:12:56
You know, I'm fascinated by the the psychological impact of faith and how it it can really function as a, as a, as a, as a very strong anchor for self remembering. And I mean, I thought that was beautifully articulated, how it's kind of like when your faith in God and your, uh, kind of commitment to paying attention to what's really important is really online, then the kind of personality can relax in a certain way, like you don't need, you don't need to just get All your you know you're kind of like slothful self pres nine, kind of needs met, and you can kind of commit to a bigger vision for yourself. I find that really compelling. Yeah, and I'm glad you brought that up and shared that. I didn't realize it's amazing. We've been talking for almost an hour and a half. I didn't realize that that was, like, a huge part of your life.
Nicholas 1:14:01
I mean, talk about the priority like that, that is what's most important, yeah. But it's like, I think, yeah. I mean, I've been having, and this is, like, relatively new to me, even though, even though, like, I would say, like, what I was referencing before in terms of, like, the whole engineering to spiritual, like, understanding that there is a spiritual dimension. Like that was like five over five years ago now, and at the time, I felt like, Okay, I have a relationship with God. But again, it was like, still this impressive concern about the direction of my own life, like, and it was again focused on what was happening, what's happening in this world, like, how, what's my What, what's going to be the direction of my life in this world? Yeah, yeah. And making, making that the priority, like, what, what's, what is my career? About? Basically, right, right? Well. Should be my career, and seeking answers for that, and, like, really searching for that and thinking that that was going to solve everything. It's like, I think that's also been another, like, through line. It's like, what is the thing? What's the substance that's going to like, what's the, what's the solvent, right? Chemical, Chemically speaking, like, what's the, what's the background that's going to allow every other particular to dissolve, every all of the, all of the particular problems to melt and relax into the substance, into the solvent. That's
Josh Lavine 1:15:45
a beautiful analogy, yeah?
Nicholas 1:15:48
And searching for all the different things that we're going to make that happen that just turned out to be dead ends. Yeah?
Josh Lavine 1:16:02
Well, on that note, I just want to say thanks for doing this. Thanks for reaching out and thank you. Yeah, yeah. What was this like for you?
Nicholas 1:16:15
Like you mentioned earlier, it was kind of like a long, long time coming in terms of just something that I had wanted and thought about, and it was just like, interesting. Now, in this last like week or so, I was like, Oh my God. It's like, actually happening, but also feeling like, when I when I really wanted it, it was not the appropriate time for it on, you know, for either of us probably, um, yeah, I'm just really glad that it happened now and and I just, I definitely hope it's, like, useful and interesting for people. I know that's like, also a big, like, nine thing of like, wanting to just feel like they're not boring people. And that's part of the reason for, like, damping down some of the, some of the oddities that we, that we all have, and to, yeah, allow, allow people, both to, like, genuinely not make their personality so important. I think that's, that's a big thing. Like, while all this Enneagram stuff is, like, super interesting to me and and to a lot of us,
Josh Lavine 1:17:30
yes, keep saying this point, because this is an important point that you brought
Nicholas 1:17:35
up in your email too. Maybe, maybe, I don't
Josh Lavine 1:17:37
know. I don't know. Thank you. But,
Nicholas 1:17:41
yeah, it's like, it's, it's super engaging and interesting to like, learn about. But when it, when it becomes a, a tool for like, for either, either substituting for, again, the real like, the real expression of, you know what, what our life's purpose is, or, or, yeah, basically, basically, it becomes a further reinforcement of the personality, like the learning about the personality, to reinforce the personality, versus Just being able to observe the dynamic and then to relax it, I think is kind of the the point I was, I was going for. But again, it's like the the whole idea of, you know, a fool who persists in his folly becomes wise. I think that if you do get interested in in the Enneagram, because you like, want to want to know your type, or you want to or you want to feel affirmed in whatever, or you want to feel special, like, you know, I'm, I'm one of the one of the nines that first identified as a four. And it's like, if you want, if you want your type, to indicate some kind of special aspect about yourself that you don't already, that you don't generally feel reflected. It's, it is, in a sense, a dead end. It's like it's it's empty. The Enneagram is empty. The Enneagram is not a substance. It's a framework. It's a it's a lattice. It's a it's a kaleidoscope through which the the oddities of personality can manifest themselves and and the way I would, I would maybe phrase it is like it's a way that you know that God is expressing itself, himself, in in all, in all the different ways, and not even expressing, I guess, to an extent, expressing himself, but also being, being creative, right? Each of us is a creation. Our personality is a creation and a manifestation in the world. But it's, it's on the surface. Yeah, it's, it's how things display. But if you go all the way back, it's not only the kind of the full kaleidoscope of the Enneagram, but it's, it's just reflecting life itself, you know, it's reflecting the nature of of God,
Josh Lavine 1:20:23
some nine, some nine wisdom, right there. Boom. So wrap it up. Thank you. And Okay, before we close, I want to ask you, how are you feeling with your Celsius experience?
Nicholas 1:20:39
The it's we've, we've, we've tempered, we've tempered the Celsius. Celsius has, has no power over me. You
Josh Lavine 1:20:46
won. You wrestled it to the ground.
Nicholas 1:20:49
Yeah. No, there was, there was definitely a moment, um, where I think I was talking, and I just kind of had a breath where it's like, and then it was just, uh, it was like past, past the peak, and it felt within that, within the envelope function of the except the acceptable, the acceptable range of of error, deviance, deviance from baseline.
Josh Lavine 1:21:21
Cool. Well, glad to hear it. Glad you're back to Yeah, feeling Yeah.
Nicholas 1:21:27
I'll have to find another one. Now. Have to go on the roller coaster again.
Josh Lavine 1:21:30
Yeah, that's the and there we go. That's the Okay, yeah, cool. All right, man. Well, dude, thank you again. Thanks for doing this and yeah, okay, talk soon. Thank you so much for joining me for my conversation with Nicholas. If you liked the show, then please click the like button or hit subscribe. If you're watching on YouTube, or if you're listening to this as a podcast, then you can leave up to a five star review. It's a zero cost, very effective way to support me and my work and what we do here at the Enneagram school. And again, if you're curious to learn more about the Enneagram school, you can go to our website. Go to our website, the Enneagram school.com we have a lot of free resources about the Enneagram. You can go read about the Enneagram on our website. And also, you can sign up for our email list right there at the Enneagram school.com you can get our nine types of one page guide. And also, we will be sending you updates about our first ever coming out soon, intro to the Enneagram online course that we think is the most intellectually rigorous, best available course online anywhere. We're going to be releasing that in the next month or two. So please get on our email list if you want to receive updates about that. And also, another reason to get on our email list is that we are going to be announcing events for 2025 we're going to start doing in person events in 2025 our target is to do our first ever in person retreat as the Enneagram school somewhere, probably in the March time frame. So if you're on the Enneagram school email list, then you will receive that update, and you can sign up for that. If you think that you're a good candidate to be interviewed on this show, then I would love to hear from you. You can go to the Enneagram school.com/contact and send me a message. Let me know what your type is, and also preference strongly goes to people who have been officially typed by the [email protected] ennegrammer is, I think, the world's best, most accurate typing team, and you can go check out them and their typing [email protected] you can also check out their subscription service where you can watch them type celebrities in real time on YouTube. All right, that's it for me. Thank you so much for tuning in, and I will see you next time you
