Tracy 0:00
Sometimes they actually think about at in that way. It's like we're actually just working on opening up the the super highway between your brain and your body. And a lot of times there's sort of like gateways where that's held, that is really the baseline that I'm so grateful for, that I that the Alexander Technique has helped me cultivate in myself, because then it becomes easier to become aware of when those blocks are happening, when that Body, Mind highway is being blocked off, when I decide, You know what, I'm going to let that stay blocked off right now, because I don't want to feel that at this moment. Welcome
Josh Lavine 0:36
to another episode of what it's like to be you. I'm Josh Lavine, your host, and today my guest is Tracy Einstein. Tracy is a good friend and a very talented practitioner of Alexander Technique and also somatic experiencing. If you've not heard of somatic experiencing, it's or either or Alexander Technique, both are body based modalities of becoming more aligned and Integris with your use and coordination of your body, as well as processing the kind of trauma that your body holds. I think Tracy's a really wise person, and I respect her a lot. I think she embodies the work that she practices. And you'll notice that there are a couple of times during this interview where she pauses and slows down to check in with herself. And in this conversation, we explore what we kind of termed the pre verbal universe, so the whole dimension of our experience that exists beneath language, and that has to do with your body, how you hold your sense of identity in terms of like body, heart and Enneagram world. And we also touch on why, because there's this whole pre verbal dimension of your experience. Why? Sometimes talk therapy, while it's very useful for some things, sometimes doesn't get deep enough to help you fully process very traumatic events or things that happened in things that happened to your body. So if you've read, for example, the Body Keeps the Score, we know that the body holds trauma, and the body has natural processes to process and release trauma. Somatic Experiencing is specifically about that, and also the way that Tracy practices Alexander Technique holds a lot of space for that as well. So I would say this is an especially useful conversation if you're a person who has had trauma in your past and you've tried talk therapy and it didn't really work, and you're interested in exploring a body based, or somatic approach, that's the same thing. Somatic just means body. And you'd like to just understand why that's a useful thing, why, what the body has to offer, why? You know, a lot of times people approach body work with a sense of they've never heard of it before. It feels kind of woowoo. So this is a conversation just exploring what it is, why it's important, and what the usefulness is of taking a somatic approach. So without further ado, I'm very excited for you to learn from my friend Tracy. All right, so thinking about in the Enneagram body intelligence, like what that actually is. So I think we live in a more or less body blind culture, from the point of view of like, when I ask people, a lot of times with my clients, my coaching clients, I'm asking them if they have had an experience, or what their experience is with somatic intelligence. And often it's the first time ever hearing the word somatic. And which just means body Intel, basically, for the people who are listening, and what it like. What do you what is the intelligence of the body? And anyway, there's a whole thing to go into about that. And I imagine that's what this a lot part of this conversation is going to be about, yeah, but in a in a culture where we think of intelligence in terms of cognition and analysis and how much you can know and how quick, quick thinking you can be, and how cerebral you can be, body intelligence is a whole other dimension, and we sort of forget that we have a body, yeah, and that the body is our home, and you wouldn't be a human being without a body. And all kinds of things happen in the body. We hold tension there. There's a lot of pre verbal processing that happens in the body. Or sometimes that process gets aborted in some way. It gets stilted
Tracy 4:22
100% we live in a brain centered world. I Let's say I come from a brain centered family and maybe culture. And my foray into somatics, I guess, probably began as I was a dancer growing up, like really, really invested in dance from a very young age. And then when I was 17, my dad died very suddenly and of a heart attack, and I. So basically, the brain stuff didn't work for me anymore. Like there were a lot of ways that I could feel that that trauma, like that shot I can like now, look, it's like a shock trauma in a way. It was so sudden, it was too much, too fast. Affected my body, mind, spirit in such a strong way, and I didn't feel helped by the mental processing. It didn't help me ground. And I'd say I went on this journey. I mean, I'm still on this journey. But I would say like, particularly for like that, that eight to 10 years following his death, where I just had to kind of keep doing away with the like cerebral and coming into the body, and that was really the only thing that helped. And so it was very like, in a way, it felt by necessity that this exploration began for me, because it just wasn't working the other way. And yet I felt like, oh in my dance classes, oh in my like, body awareness class, all this, these feelings are finally coming up like that I haven't processed, and I'm feeling like a little better now, and like I'm feeling a little more present now. And so that is, like, it was my own personal exploration that, like, sort of led me in that direction. And I just jotted down one other thing that you said about, like, the brain, like the moving quickly. How we value that? And wanted to mention that one of my teachers said, you know, the body moves more slowly than the mind, and so when we like come, when it comes time to be in touch, that's part of why we need to really slow down and and take things one step at a time, so that we can hear it. We can hear the body and what it's saying. And the last thing I'll say, I'm jotting notes from what you said, when you said, like the body is not separate from the mind, like we know that now, like there's no question in biomechanics or biology that there is nervous system and brain in our body and that that communicates in both directions, top down and bottom up. That's That's not a question anymore. So I and now there's all these, you know, books coming out of, like, oh my gosh, when you exercise, it affects your brain, no way. Like, it's just sorry. I don't mean to be, like, mocking it, but it just feels like I feel, I feel that way too. In my experience, it's like, of course, like, here you are. You're a body, mind, spirit, whole person. So, yeah, yeah, out there for now, but
Josh Lavine 7:41
one thing I'll just pull out of what you're saying is that, you know, it's often the case that when I meet a client for the first time, that it is their first time meeting themselves in an Interior way, like they haven't really crossed the threshold of excavating themselves. And so they're coming from a place of basically having been acculturated in a world where insight is king. And there, and there's this, there's this assumption that what we're going to do is, what they're going to do with with me, is have new insights that will change their thinking, that will help them be more productive or efficient, or whatever. And what is, what can be very difficult actually, is to sort of convince them, you could say in quotes that actually a deeper level of working is more effective. And this is so that's paragraph one. Paragraph two is to your point about, like, talk therapy failing or not really working for you. When you were 17, your dad died. Like the level of language is, you know, it's like a level of our consciousness, but there's, there's stuff that happens underneath it. There's like a whole pre verbal universe, yeah, and, and the previous pre verbal universe lays the foundation for what we have access to in the verbal universe, if that makes sense.
Tracy 9:17
Hell yeah,
Josh Lavine 9:18
yeah. And, and, so, yeah, so kind of like, as we start encountering ourselves, then we start, we have the option to start, kind of burrowing into this pre verbal unit, or start rummaging around in the psychological basement that is this pre verbal space. And I want to start, I want to use this as a transition to talk about what you do with sex. Talk about what you do with Yeah. You want
Tracy 9:45
to respond, yeah. I mean, in fact, for me, I wish I had seen a talk therapist when my dad passed away. Unfortunately, that didn't happen. So it was like, the way that people spoke, like, like, the way people were trying to help. Me, and I got a lot of help. Like, I'm not saying I didn't I just, and particularly in that first year, I got a lot of support. But then I went away to college, and then it was like, I just felt like I was in this very mind centered space. I went to a very like, elite university in New York City. So it was just extremely mind centered everywhere. And I, you know, so, so I think that's when things started to really feel inadequate for me, like it wasn't happening. And, and, and then, yeah, and then there was a phase where I did see a talk therapist, and then I started my Alexander technique training, and maybe this is a good segue, and I was, and actually my talk therapist at the time noticed such huge shifts in me that she started seeing my Alexander Technique teacher, which, no way, a little bit ethically questionable, but she, she, you know, it, um, and she got really, like, curious about it, yeah, um, because It was making such a big difference for me. And, yeah, yeah, I'll say that. And I just love the way that you say this about the pre verbal plot. It's almost like our body and our nervous system states are like the platform through which we actually process our experience, and they're actually the platform through which our thoughts arise,
Josh Lavine 11:21
yeah, can you give a brief? Well, it doesn't have to be brief, but what is Alexander Technique?
Tracy 11:34
Great, and I'm actually curious, because I know I would be curious your description of what Alexander Technique is as well, sure I can go first.
Josh Lavine 11:45
Okay, yeah, why don't you go first? Okay,
Tracy 11:53
so Alexander Technique is a method of an educational method for coming to greater awareness of your physical, psycho, physical being in the world, meaning your mind, body, self, and how you approach stimulus, basically. So there's like stimulus and there's response, and usually we do all that with great succession. It's just like autopilot. And I would Alexander, technique is an educational method for basically taking yourself out of autopilot so that you can form new patterns of psycho physical use. Part of that is,
Josh Lavine 12:37
oh, thank you. No, yeah, keep going.
Tracy 12:41
That is through education like psycho physical education, if we have a better map of our body, often we end up using it more more with more ease. It works better, and part of that is through touch work, which is there's a very nuanced kind of touch work that Alec, that I've been trained in through that training. And there's other things too. I lost my train of thought, Yeah, how's that?
Josh Lavine 13:14
That was great. Yeah, I'll give I'll give my definition, and it'll add an extra flavor. Yeah, awesome. Alexander Technique is one of those things that actually, with almost any somatic modality. It's, it's really hard to just explain it. Yeah, it's, it is much better to be experienced. But first of all, Alexander technique, it's like the way a person encounters it usually is through a session. Like, you book a session with a teacher, an Alexander teacher, and what you do is you show up and you start, usually in, like a like, sitting, and then the teacher comes over and puts their hands on it says, oh, like they put their hand on your head, and they say something like, feel the space between what my hand is and where your your and your sits bones. Just feel it, feel the length. And then that thing you the way you're touching, and then the thing you say has an impact on me. All of a sudden, I'm breathing in a different way, and you're noticing that. And then you're putting your hand somewhere else and giving another giving another suggestion. And it's very subtle, but what sort of ends up happening is you are rediscovering, or through these, like, very subtle directions, you're kind of like finding a new way to inhabit your body. And what happens is your breathing gets more expansive. You feel more at ease. And there's this really important word in Alexander Technique use with a capital U, the way you're using your body. So it's kind of like restoring proper use.
Tracy 14:59
But. Yeah, I
Josh Lavine 15:01
guess I'll throw a couple other, just Alexander catch phrases in, because I think they're useful from just in terms of, like, entering into what this is, yeah. So a really, really powerful, useful phrase is this phrase, debauched kinesthesia. So like, the idea being that when you go through the world, you acquire certain habits of motion that aren't necessarily the most optimal way of using your body. Like, let's say you're like the way that you pick up an apple at the grocery store, for example, you might be using too much force with it, or you might be gripping the apple too hard and not realizing it. You just it's a habit you picked up and all of a sudden, because
Tracy 15:44
our brain, when we have habits, we our brain stops processing them as anything but just our baseline, so that, yeah, so that's part of the use of like the hands on work is by bringing the hands on helps bring heightened sensation to a place, or give you a contrast of a different experience. So then you can notice, oh, my God, I didn't even know I was doing that, and now I'm, like, able to sense it, because either the teacher has given you, like, a contrasting feeling, or just this that the hands on can help you just bring a more awareness to that habit. Yeah, yeah, that's
Josh Lavine 16:26
good, yeah. But yeah. So this phrase, debash kinesthesia. I love this phrase because what it's, I mean, it's a big it's a mouthful, but what it's referring to is how you've accumulated just a certain way of moving, of being with your body, and it's like your own way of sensing yourself is unreliable in the sense that, like, proper or optimal use of your body. Yeah, feels weird. What feels normal to you, what feels quote unquote comfortable to you, is this, I guess I'll use the word wrong way of using your body, or, uh, sub optimal way of using your body, yeah. So when an when you go to an Alexander teacher and they give you some suggestion for a new way of using your body, like a new way of holding an apple or a new way of sitting, often it brings a whole new level of freedom or ease with your breathing or whatever. But also it feels weird, totally, you know, and it takes a while for your body to acclimate to this the more optimal way. Yeah, so what I'm saying, but totally, but yeah, so debasic anesthesia. I remember that being like, a huge aha moment for me. And I was like, oh, that's actually really similar to how we speak of working with your personality in the Enneagram, because, yeah? Because you know our habit, our habits of personality, are comfortable to us, yeah, and they're not necessarily our optimal expression. And what feels normal or comfortable to us is kind of our state of our states of contraction,
Tracy 18:01
yeah, oh, yeah. Interesting. Can I ask you something, as if, because, yeah, you, I, you're a three right in the Enneagram. Is
Josh Lavine 18:11
that right? Yeah? Like, how
Tracy 18:12
do you engage with this word, optimal, optimal? Like, what does optimal mean to you?
Josh Lavine 18:24
Well, I'm using it in a particular way here. I guess. I guess the way that I'm using it here is, like, I'll put it this way. So, like, I discovered Alexander technique because I was playing piano and I had back pain, right? And a lot of people, a lot of a lot of people who work with their bodies in this way discover Alexander Technique, like musicians or actors or dancers, people who Yeah, their body is their work, yeah, and yeah, their
Tracy 18:55
body is their instrument in a way, correct,
Josh Lavine 18:58
yeah, yeah. Or at least in a more salient or obvious way than right,
Tracy 19:02
because it's true for everybody. Yeah, exactly, yeah,
Josh Lavine 19:08
but yeah. So I came to Alexander technique, and what I learned was that I was pushing too much with my chest, yeah, and that was a sub optimal way of using my body, and what I wasn't doing was the more quote, unquote optimal way was kind of letting the weight of my hands rest and be supported by my back right as as my hands fell on the keys right. And so I guess what I'm the way I'm using the word optimal is like, there's a, there's a more easeful, more in Integris kind of way of
Tracy 19:42
Yeah, using Yeah. I love the word integrity, and maybe this is like my one wing I especially over the pandemic, like I just really, I ended up teaching Alexander Technique online for a long time. And. It also coincided with the social uprisings of 2020 and really unpacking white supremacy and how it shows up. And, you know, Alexander Technique is a, you know, very white centered practice, or FM, Alexander was white, I'll say that. And it has kind of that, not in a obvious like not in a what's the word, in an unconscious way. I think it has in ways like it's ingrained in white supremacy culture, as many things are in our culture, right? And so I really got together. I got together with a couple of colleagues, and we did a lot of unpacking of how those sorts of principles kind of have made their way into that practice in in unconscious ways. And we did really unpack this idea of, like, the right way versus the wrong way. And the thing where, like, oh, the teacher is going to come in and help you unlearn your depart kinesthesia. And then, and I, and like, just the kind of, that kind of, I'm feeling a little nervous talking about this, because I don't want to, like, yeah. And so that made me shift my, my way of speaking about things, and kind of be a little less into thinking about like, Oh, let me help you move more optimally, even though that was so helpful for me. You know, it's hard to it's hard to balance this, but I think wanting to find a way to help people feel integ integrity in how they're moving and that they feel centered. Because, like for me, going into Alexander technique, I remember feeling like, whoa. This makes me feel more centered, and this makes me feel more authentic to myself, whereas my I had this one interesting moment of like, I felt like I had this pattern of being very outgoing, but I actually felt more shy than that. But there was some way that I had, like, integrated this pattern of like, showing that I was friendly or outgoing when really I felt shy and and like the the practice of the Alexander Technique, like I'd notice myself reaching off the ground and like, losing my center and losing that integrity. And so it helped me, you know, break up that stimulus and response. This is something gene Taylor, one of my teachers, says she's like their stimulus response, you go poop and make a space inside where you can make other choices that are different, and not just your go to and your usual. And that was really, I keep coming to personal examples, but like for me, that was really, really key in some in personal relationships, where I was feeling like I was just responding in a way that felt like it was just reinforcing these circles of experiences that just kept coming back, and it was never going anywhere new. And so then, like taking the chance to pause, make a space between stimulus and response, and maybe sense my spine or sense my weight on the ground, and then from there, consider what am I actually feeling, and how do I actually want to respond, as opposed to what had been my pattern? Yeah, yeah, that was kind of a tangent. Does that make sense? What I'm saying.
Josh Lavine 23:41
It makes a lot of sense what you're saying. I mean, let me see to I have two kind of threads in my head. One is the the way that, how we how we choose to language. This stuff has an impact and has embedded in it, social constructs, or Yeah, sort of ways of potentially disempowering, or whatever kind of language that has, yeah,
Tracy 24:13
yeah, yeah. I think over zoom I had, I had a couple students that were really crippled by that language that felt like they kept trying to get it right, and like, Uh huh, right. I think maybe without the hands on, you don't get that balance of like, oh, that you really get that hands on support helping you. So there was this reach to get it right. And then I was like, You know what this is? This isn't a thing to achieve. This is actually only useful in so far as it's it's helpful to you. So, yeah, if it's not helpful to you, or if a certain direction is not helpful to you in this moment, then it's not, then let it, let it go. You know, it's not, it's not something you need. It's not something you need to achieve. Yeah. Yeah,
Josh Lavine 25:01
so that's, that's a whole or go ahead,
Tracy 25:05
it's okay. Well, it just, it just also, you know, this is like, at this point, you know, when the pandemic began, I had been teaching for five years, and I had taught a lot at this acting conservatory, which I just love working there, and I started to feel this itch for like, more, a more therapeutic lens, and sort of a lens that that was could deal more, more skillfully with, with the kind of psychological stuff that came up for people when we were working, and emotional stuff. Because often people would have, like, big emotional breakthroughs, because we hold our emotions often in our body, so if you're holding a muscle and then that lets go, often people get, like, flooded with an emotion or or a thought, or like a memory. And I felt like I wanted more skills for when that kind of thing came up. And that's why I I sought out somatic experiencing. You
Josh Lavine 26:03
know, one of the things that I think is really interesting and really difficult about engaging in any like inner work practice or healing modality or whatever, is that we bring our own patterns and structure of interpretation into the work, sure, and so like, for example, with I did this interview with a guy, a practitioner of The Work of Byron Katie, and there's a way that it's like when you're filling out a worksheet and you're doing the turnarounds, you can internalize a certain sense of, I should be seeing this person differently, and then that becomes a whole framework that you're asserting on yourself, and you lose the sincerity of the investigation and the and it becomes a kind of super ego project to to achieve a certain state of quote, unquote, enlightenment through this to this work, and it's a parallel to what You're saying, because when you know if you're if you're a person approaching Alexander technique with this idea of discovering and then inhabiting your optimal use using this word optimal, and your psyche takes in this word optimal in a way that feels internally pressuring or restricting or like performing, Yeah, then you lose the whole thing. Yeah. So, and obviously, there are social constructs and oppression constructs that are interesting to unpack in our language, yeah. And also at the level of the individual, there are these ways to be on the lookout, you know, for how, how you're holding the work,
Tracy 27:45
and how it's handing for people, so each individual as well. Yeah, for sure.
Josh Lavine 27:49
Ironically, actually, I was going to invoke another Alexander word, this idea of end gaining, yeah, yeah. Which is, you know, it's like, if you're approaching, if you're like, Okay, I've got back pain. I'm gonna go to my Alexander Tate technique teacher, and then I'm going to, like, fix my end gaining.
Tracy 28:04
Yeah,
Josh Lavine 28:05
let me say what I'm getting is, or actually, do you want to say what endgame is?
Tracy 28:08
First sure end gaining is just like, over focusing on the product as opposed to the process. It makes me think of this Zen cone that Tara Brock shares in her podcast, that someone goes shows up to the monastery and says, so how many years will it take me to attain enlightenment, right? And the monk says, 10 years. And then he says, But what if I work really hard? And he goes, 20 years.
Josh Lavine 28:38
Yeah, that's exactly it, yeah, yeah. So with respect to end gaining, it's like this concept within, within Alexander technique, is like, like, for example, take my piano, yeah. Experience like gain. The end that I'm trying to gain is making the piano make music. And it's like, I have to get my fingers in this position, and then I gotta get and it's got to be this volume or whatever. And there, there's an over focus on the result, as opposed to the actual mechanics of how the result is being gotten. And
Tracy 29:17
if you bring in the nervous system into that, if you're thinking about your mechanics as your primary coordination, the coordination that you bring to whatever you're doing, which is a psycho physical coordination. It's not just the body you're right. It's like what you're saying. It's also associated with some thought about what it what is needed in order to make music. Like there's some kind of mental pattern that's associated with that too. So part of the kind of unlearning or relearning about how to play is shifting your mindset as well as your body mechanics. And then, you know now and then you can also include like, what your nervous system state is. How are you thinking about this? What's your intention? What's your How do you view the audience? Do you view them? As people who are part of your community, or do you view them as people who are judging you? And that's where, like, all the psychological kind of underpinnings are really fascinating to me. Yeah,
Josh Lavine 30:10
yeah, guys, there's, there's so much packed into this, like, moment of our conversation. So yeah. So regarding end gaining in particular, I think it's fascinating how, like if you approach Alexander technique itself as a form of end gaining, then you kind of it loses its effectiveness. So that's
Tracy 30:34
moving back around to that Yes.
Josh Lavine 30:37
And then one other piece that an insight that's been coming up for me as I've been interviewing practitioners of different modalities is like, like I was. I originally started this with the idea that I was like, okay, Enneagram has body heart in mind, and I'm gonna find people that are body workers or heart people or mental practices, whatever. And what I found is actually it doesn't work that way. I mean, the entry point, like Alexander technique, you would at first blush, categorize as a body practice, right? You know, and it is, but for it to actually take root in you, it actually has to touch all three centers, because, like your your body, is being in a certain way, which is calcifying a certain way of seeing yourself and sort of how you're how you hold your identity, and it's also restricting in a certain way the possibilities you're able to see In your mind about what you're doing so it has, yeah, all three centers, like the way you are holding the way you are in your body, has an impact on your identity and your mental orientation, and when you sort of unravel or expose or shift In some kind of way, or explore another possibility of what you can be in your body, then it opens up new possibilities for your identity, how you see yourself, and new ways of thinking. And it can kind of happen in the reverse as well. Yeah, that's kind of how the Work of Byron Katie works. It starts, and it starts with a thought instead of the body, but it trickles down, you know, and if you can't anyway, I just Well,
Tracy 32:22
and that's where I think the at is super helpful, because that trickle down can only happen if you're not blocking off against the trickle down. Yeah, right. Sometimes they actually think about at in that way. It's like we're actually just working on opening up the super highway between your brain and your body. And a lot of times there's sort of like gateways where that's held, and this is kind of, there's a neuro effective touch, is another thing I've learned about. And they talk about, they put into words something that I've experienced, which is that there's certain sort of gateways in the body where we tend to block off against sensation and if and so like, the tongue is one place. And my mentor and Roediger used to talk about the tongue as like, it can form almost like a cork at the top of your body. And when that lets go, energy flows, and also often emotion flows, and all that stuff, and the diaphragm is another place where we tend to hold off. So like, Oh, I'm having this overwhelming emotion. Instead of feeling it, I'm just gonna not breathe, right? And so that is where, and I think Alexander Technique is the most specific, and this is partly about who I trained with Ann Roediger. Shout out. Like, really, really technical. She's very, yeah, she's very nuanced and technical and specific in a way that's like, just, I mean, I have spent hours with every single centimeter of my body at this point, just like, with more specificity, more awareness, more movement and like that is that is really the baseline that I'm so grateful for, that I that the Alexander Technique has helped me cultivate in myself, because then it becomes easier to become aware of when those blocks are happening, when that Body, Mind tie away is being blocked off when I decide, You know what, I'm going to let that stay blocked off right now because I don't want to feel bad at this moment, or when I feel safe enough or resourced enough to let that go come into more optimal alignment. Because when that happens, often, there's more flow and there's more awareness of what's actually, what you're actually feeling, and what you actually need to do or want to do, which can be hard if you're not resourced enough.
Josh Lavine 34:49
Yeah, yeah. I want to bring in a somatic experiencing idea, yeah, here too. So I you have to correct me on the terminology, but I think the term is following. Um, there's, but it's what it's referring to, is like, how so animals do things like, after like, they experience a shock or trauma, they'll they'll walk somewhere, they'll shake it off. And they kind of have these natural ways that their body just some it's not like they're like, deciding I'm going to shake now. It's like just, it's something that emerges from the body and then it's the way that the body processes and then digests, metabolizes, and then kind of gets moves on from so well said, Yes, you know, from something that happened, some like, yes, they just got attacked, they ran away from a predator, or something like that. And it's like, Whoa. That was what we would consider a potentially traumatic experience. And then they have a way of just kind of processing it, processing it in their body, and then restoring a state of
Tracy 35:54
digesting it, yeah, yeah, yeah. And
Josh Lavine 35:57
because we're human beings, and we have ways of, like, making sense of the world, or self consciousness, then we often inhibit our body's natural process. Like, like we think to ourselves, shaking, why am I shaking? You know, why would I? Why would? And we kind of clamp down and don't let it happen. Amen. And so and so this tension between body mind happens, or this kind of this way that the body's natural processes don't complete themselves because of the way that we tamp them down through whatever mental concepts that we've been acculturated into, or ways that we think that it would be weird if we did it, or whatever. Yes, and so somatic experiences is kind of like, my sense of it is. It's kind of like finding your way to the source, like the fountain, the inner fountain of what your body is wanting to express or do, and then opening the channel and just letting it happen without too much mental chatter or constraint, and that is kind of like the body's natural way of, like processing a thing. So, and I know that was relevant to what we just said, but I forgot exactly the connection anyway, so I just, I'll just drop that there,
Tracy 37:16
and I thought that was really beautifully put. And tug tales with what we were just talking about, about how tension, you know, in the at a lot of what we look at is, is coming into more optimal alignment, but then also, like undoing the tension that's holding you in that sub optimal alignment, um, all of a sudden, feeling comfortable using the word optimal. Now that we're talking we talked about,
Josh Lavine 37:39
so
Tracy 37:43
the sub optimal alignment, there's often tension associated with that, or collapse like, sometimes there's like, there's not enough tension actually, and it's actually like collapsing us down. And so I had, I'm, I'm going on a tangent, yeah, but that, yeah, so like, it's still, it's, it seems, as you're talking about, it's like, yes, of course, that dovetails so beautifully from I'm becoming, I'm doing this practice that makes me more aware of how I'm using myself in the world, and where I'm holding tension. And then sometimes what's getting in the way of us using our optimal use or coming into integrity is actually trauma that's held in the body, and it's only through completing that, that response, that survival response, that we can more easily come into our centered, more optimal use, because we're actually holding against that, and that's causing a lot of stress and trauma or tension in the body,
Josh Lavine 38:54
yeah, like it's not letting it the the natural trauma release process kind of happen. Yeah,
Tracy 38:59
and I feel like the way that I was trained in at left a lot of space for that. I mean, I had some really profound experiences of, you know, softening and my body doing stuff. And like Anne would just, like, stay with my body, and I'd be like, Whoa. I'm like, really untwisting, like something's going on, or I'd shake, or whatever. And I think it when it's done with that kind of sensitivity and attunement, I find it to be just incredibly powerful. There's also a brand of Alexander technique, I don't know who it is or where it is, that's more about like, sit up straight and find the perfect balance of your head on your spine. And that's not that's what some people who come to me have experienced in the past and are kind of working against, and then we have to find a way to, like, make it a more organic process. Mm.
Josh Lavine 40:00
I love that word organic, that feels like, that feels there, yeah, yeah. So, you know, it's funny as we're talking, it's like, I'm just sort of discovering how hard it is to I almost, I almost, I almost entered this conversation with a sense of, okay, let's, like, define what Alexander Technique is, and then let's define what somatic experiences. And then we'll have a conversation, see what the conversation is between these two separate modalities. But it's really just just kind of, both of them are doorways into the body and the body's natural process and, yeah, and ways of, I don't know, disentangling our inner systems.
Tracy 40:48
And I love how you say stuff. It's so good.
Josh Lavine 40:50
Thank you.
Unknown Speaker 40:51
I think what I'm,
Josh Lavine 40:53
what I'd be really interested to hear you talk about, is, like, what your experience is as a practitioner. Like what happens in a session? What are you noticing? And just like, take us into the into your lens,
Tracy 41:04
I sort of have two paths that I'm working in, or two gateways, I guess you could say, and one of them is, I'm teaching somatic resources, which is what I kind of have an umbrella now, instead of saying like Alexander technique or somatic experiencing. It's like I'm teaching somatic resources for for like college age performing artists. And so that looks like a more classical Alexander Technique experience. We do lie downs, which is a practice in the Alexander Technique. But I can get it more into if you want me to. But we do a lot of like looking at how to how you approach your art form, how to do that with more mindfulness, awareness of your optimal use, kind of what you were describing earlier. And then in my private practice, I now work with people who are coming mostly for I have a couple of pure Alexander clients, which I mean, like they're working on singing, and they like how to use their body more efficiently for singing and performing, which is super fun. And then I have clients who are coming with a more sort of holistic lens, who feel like they have past trauma that's stuck in their body, that they want to work with and that they want to like process to move forward in their lives. And those sessions look more like we start with a embodied meditation coming into center, noticing support from the chair, noticing your subtle, three dimensional breath just coming into contact. Because, like you said, so many of us live up here, so just like slowing down, coming into contact with the body, and then from there, I'll usually ask, like, so what? What's on the top for you? Like, what's Where are you at today? And often, if people are working with a specific event that they want to process, we, like, you said, like, you don't just, like, dive straight in, because that doesn't actually, you don't have the safety cultivated yet, enough to like, just dive straight into, like, the deepest thing. So I spend some time in a way that's just conversational and sort of checking in, getting to know a person, establishing what hopefully feels like a safe relationship, you know, and then if they want to go into a traumatic event, then what happens is basically ask them to start from, like, t minus five, like, start from when it began, and they talk. And as I listen, I notice what I watch for, what's happening in their body, or I watch for, what if there's a moment where, like, there's an extra charge, and I might say, because often there's a tendency not always, to just speed right over those moments. Yes, people are so used to talking about it. So I'll be like, Would you be willing to just pause for a second, because you said that, and I felt myself, I felt myself tense up, where I noticed that your body went like this, right? And then, so, like, what happens if we actually take a second and really slow that down, and then we'll, you know, slow it down. And I might say, like, well, so when you're talking about that, what are you sensing in your body? And then, usually there's something that happens. I mean, like, I just have such amazing clients. Like, there I was thinking when you were describing this as a tangent, how you're like some of your clients, it feels like they're not that used to coming into the interior for whatever reason. Like, I feel like I attract people who are like, super in like, I'll be like, What do you sense in their body? And they'll just, like, have this very like, beautiful image, or like, like, there's a lot of. Sort of maybe comfort level with, kind of experiencing what's happening in the body, not always, but that's sort of in general. So yeah, and then, and then we just follow that thread. And like that thread can go in the direction of what you were describing as, like finishing something, or like moving through something, maybe they'll shake. And then if it if it stops, or if they just need to, like, be in a collapse for a while, and then I feel like my job is to just let them know that, like, they can stay there as long as they need, because there is that tendency to, like, rush forward, keep going right
Josh Lavine 45:38
that end getting thing keeps coming back, doesn't it? It does, yeah, that's
Tracy 45:41
so interesting. Yeah, yeah. And then we just, we kind of just follow the thread, and then they might come back to the story, keep talking, and then you just, like, notice again, where's the charge? You come back to the and then also, a lot of what I do is normalizing things that people experience because and it comes out from different directions, but because I have this nervous system lens, also body lens, you know, I've done, you know, normalizing around the importance of touch, because I've experienced that so, so profoundly in my life and like but normalizing things that our bodies do to process stress and that, like you were saying, like animals Don't judge that. They just do it and they keep moving right and so to help, kind of help people find that sometimes I do sort of like psycho education of polyvagal theory, which is like, just finding yourself on, where is your nervous system right now? Like, where are you? Let's find it. And let's, like, describe it. Let's become aware of it and note and think about, like, what do you need to come back into safety, to come back into ventral vagal regulation? And then I like, oh, go ahead, just to finish the the session, like, what we do in the session? Because this is, like, this is the kind of thing that we do always coming down, back into the body, back into the nervous system. If it feels useful, I might do some like, psycho physical education. If it seems like there's something in their body, use that might be supportive, or if it's in person, sometimes we do hands on work. And then I like to close nowadays with, like, giving people a little piece of homework, something very simple. Or I have this, like, deck of cards on polyvagal theory, and I'll, like, pull a card, and it's pretty fun. I got that from my own therapist, actually, who has always done that. And I just find it really amazing. Like, often those cards, like, really relate to what someone has been working on or not, and if they but it's a nice way to book end a session, I think, and create that container to use a buzzword. But in person, usually I'll do, I'll mostly do, like, a little piece of homework, and then we can check in about it
Josh Lavine 47:53
cool. And just real quick for people don't know what polyvagal theory is.
Tracy 47:56
Oh yeah, yeah. So polyvagal theory explains the relationship between the autonomic nervous system and social behavior. So the autonomic nervous system is the, what some people call it, like the neurological architecture of our mind body connection. It's like where the brain moves through I have some great pictures, but it's, it's sort of the platform for our neuroception of safety or danger. It's, it's based in, like, the vagus nerve, which runs down. And it's Latin. Vegas is Latin for wandering. So it like wanders through our body, down our to our throat, our face, our heart, our gut. I'll say for your listeners, there's a great this woman, Deb Dana, who's a social worker or marriage and family therapist. She is so good at explaining polyvagal theory in a way that you're just like, oh, that's simple. She has a great audio series called I'm not remembering, but if you search Deb Dana, she has a lot of amazing resources, including a book more for like, lay people and how to talk about it. And I think I'll say like, it's this idea that there's these predictable responses to stress or threat, and that those those three predictable pathways are the ventral vagal response, which is like social connection, and it's like in our face and heart. And then the sympathetic, the sympathetic response, which is sort of like fight, flight freeze, right? And then the dorsal response, which is when we collapse and have this kind of like hide in your turtle shell feeling and and that these predictable pathways of response are totally normal and human, and that we move a lot on any given day. A healthy nervous system moves between these three. But often we end up getting feeling stuck in one place, or we feel like we maybe at a certain a certain stimulus or experience constantly pulls us into one of these states. So there's some practices for nervous system shaping where you become more comfortable, like moving between the states and, like, recognizing yourself in the state. So you're not just, like, because, like, for example, the dorsal state, right? It's like, this turtle shell state. People end up getting a narrative around that, like, oh, I suck. Or like, I can't do anything. I'm such a procrastinator. Like, there's all these narratives we put on top of it, when actually, if you, like, come into the sensation in the body and notice where you're at, you can be like, Oh, I'm in dorsal, okay. I know that usually if I want to get into my sim, if I want to climb up the ladder, up into my sympathetic or ventral vagal, I actually know in my mind that I need to go for a walk, or I need to, like, push against something you just become once you can map yourself, then you know which train to take to get home.
Josh Lavine 51:10
Yeah, they're really well said. Yes, yeah. I love what you were the way you phrased to the relationship between your autonomic nervous system and social behavior. I was I was I was reading in my prep for this conversation around somatic experiencing that one of the reasons that talk therapy can fail for very traumatized people is because when we are stuck in a in an unprocessed holding trauma kind of state, it actually shuts off our connection to the social world. Yeah, and so, you know, like a really empathic, well meaning therapist who has a talk therapy modality, yeah, it can do everything. They all the tools in their box, but they they're not able to reach the client, because the client actually isn't reachable through that, through a social portal, you
Tracy 52:08
know, yeah, I love that, yeah, through that portal or through that pathway, yeah, it's not gonna reach, yeah.
Josh Lavine 52:17
You know, one of the other pressures that we can unconsciously take on being acculturated in our world is a need to be socially on and so, you know, research has been done where one of the things that makes a therapeutic result happen, there's A there's like three main things. One is the empathic capacity of the therapist, irrespective of their modality. One is the quality of the relationship, like how safe it feels. And the third thing is something that has nothing to do with the therapist. It's, it's the client's own ability to sense freshly what's arising them and kind of let it unfold. And so like somatic experiencing or focusing other kinds of body techniques like these are ways of tuning into yourself. And a lot of times it happens just inside yourself, and it takes longer than you think you know. You almost have to disengage socially to be with yourself in a way for it to for that thing to move,
Tracy 53:24
yeah, you have to disengage with social posturing. Yes, yeah. I think that the more the older I've gotten, the more comfortable I feel showing more messy parts of myself to people, the more I don't always feel like I have to go be by myself to do that. And I think there is something really profound about aloneness, and aloneness is not the word I'm looking for. What's the word when you're in solitude? Solitude? Yeah, yeah. So I think that those things that's so interesting to think about, yeah, yeah. But I do think I'm, I am more and more grounded in how important the relationship is and that and that, and opening up what nervous system regulation looks like. Because if I were to simplify what SE is, I would say that my role as an SE practitioner is to help you regulate. Is help you come into regulation. Like, that's it. So that can come from so many different directions. And I think as a dancer and as an at practitioner, at first I thought like, oh, so that means, like, exercises like that means, like, really specific technical exercises to help you become more regulated. And what I've been held to see is, is that actually regulation looks like a lot of different things. It can look like drinking a cup of tea next to someone. It can look like hands on work. It can. Like making a joke, it can look like validating someone's experience. Like nervous system regulation can have a wider, more portals, more pathways towards it, and that's really fun for me. I like that. Maybe it gets out of my own end, gaining of like, Oh, give me the perfect exercise, and then I'll be able to help you. You know,
Josh Lavine 55:25
oh, that's so good. Yeah, yeah. It also it blurs the lines between different modalities, because a modality is just an entry point into this state of regulation, and any one of these modalities is basically, you could say that, yeah,
Tracy 55:40
that's so interesting. And I feel like, as a kind of science nerd myself, like, I think that's why I like se as an umbrella and as a lens that kind of, I'm like, oh, everything kind of can, can, can be understood through this lens in a way. And there's like, I listen to, know, a meditation podcast, and I'm like, oh, yeah, they're resourcing or, like, all it. Just for some reason, like this works, but there's so many different pathways towards that. The word that came to mind was freedom, and I'm surprised. But like towards freedom, there's so many pathways towards freedom and towards self empowerment in your in your body, mind, spirit, yeah,
Josh Lavine 56:31
wow. Well, that feels like a potentially good place to come to an end. Start coming to an end. Oh, yeah, look at that. Is there anything else that we haven't touched on that you want to make sure, to get to Sure?
Tracy 56:46
Yeah, I think there's two things that I wanted to mention. One is the gratitude for the extent to which my Alexander technique training, which, as you know, is 1600 hours, is very detailed and almost devotional.
Josh Lavine 57:08
Good word, yes, amazing, yeah.
Tracy 57:10
I really grounded me in this awareness that the extent to which I'm embodying something is the extent to which the person I'm aiming to support is able to to go there. And maybe that's self important, but it just you like, just that really grounding my centering, my own healing as a practitioner continually through my whole life, I think, is the way that I will continue to be helpful to people and like, yeah, the embodiment of that because and like, not just knowing the words and words, as we've been saying, can be a really strong portal as well. You know, even if maybe I can say a word and like, if, if a client is coming with a lot of preparedness to hear that, maybe that, maybe it isn't reliant on me having embodied that, but just centering that, like my own healing journey and as it continues, is like I um, is how I stay helpful and affected to people.
Josh Lavine 58:30
That's such an important and massive point. I mean, first of all, exclamation point about the amount of training. And I wish we had more time to so you could talk about what the the training actually entails. Maybe I'll get you in another conversation. But yeah, but yeah, no, the one of the things that I find kind of extraordinary and surprising about some, not all, some degrees for talk therapy is that there isn't that much. It's a lot of emphasis on theory, and there's not a lot of emphasis on the actual work and processing of the person who will be the therapist. And I find that, yeah, bad. That's bad and dangerous. Yeah. I
Tracy 59:14
mean, I know of a couple programs where they're very I have a friend who went to Smith who said that they had to do a lot of self reflection and processing and all that. And I'm sure that there are programs like that, and I'm sure that there are some that are not. And, yeah, just to give a an idea for the listeners, like an Alexander Technique, they say, like, only after 800 hours of training can you be approved to start practicing on other people because they're so clear that your alignment is impacting how someone receives what your what you're giving,
Josh Lavine 59:56
yeah, yeah. And to be clear, like 800 hours of training. Training that's, that's like, training is not like reading a book and writing a paper or whatever. It's like, can you just say, like, a couple words about what the training?
Tracy 1:00:09
Yeah, yeah. It's embodied practice. It's, it's hands on work. It's, it's like, your mentor, teacher and the assistant's working with you. It's working with your own coordination. It's, practice. Oh, my God, it's so hard to describe.
Josh Lavine 1:00:31
I attended a few, a few of the sessions that were like three hours long, like a class was three hours long. At the balance Art Center, shout out, yeah, shout out. And it was just, it was a lot of, I mean, just being in your body and being with other people in there, and just noticing what was happening in your body, like stretches of time would pass where we're all sitting and then turning our head very slowly, and then noticing how it affects your foot, for example, or like, yeah, you know, or how, Yeah, just all of that. So it's like, really mapping your own somatic awareness to very high precision, yeah. And yeah, go ahead,
Tracy 1:01:10
yeah. Or, you know, like, we'd be shown some images, and then, and then you with our partner, map out, you know, like, maybe we're looking at the jaw. And so we would look at how the jaw actually works on the skeleton and on the right the images. And then we would like, feel it on ourself, and do these experiments, and excuse me, and then have another person come and put hands on you, and then you do it with them, and you feel theirs. And you're like, oh my god, that totally moves. You can do that with your shoulder blade, just like very systematically working through different systems of the body and then looking at how you bring that into practice. There were also some breakout classes, like applying it to singing and performing, and always just coming into your own body map, alignment, use mental patterns, constantly looking at yourself, and then one day, you realize you have a lot to share with people.
Yeah, yeah. The other thing I wanted to say before we finish, is just the extent to which having a kid has shifted my sense of everything and has healed a lot of those pre verbal memories in myself by providing, think, something for her that is really intentional and messy, like it's not always, you know, it's not always easy, but, but by being that, by by aiming to provide a really safe space for an infant, and how I hold her and how I try to give her a felt sense of being cared for. And it's just, it's just really deep in my understanding of that pre verbal state, which I'm grateful for, and I think I'll continue to learn and be aware about, but there's a lot of time before we have words. And before we have words, there's a lot of things we learn, like, like, if, if you're, if you're going to be attended to, when you at, when you need something be you know, or if you or you learn actually how to look up and like, you learn how to move and reach and get and eat. Like, there's all of these very core needs that you learn how to do before words are even on the table. And that's, I don't know, yeah, I don't have like, a button on that, except to say, like, that's been very deep and feels like it informs how I think about Alexander technique work with reworking your movement patterns, because many of those movement patterns got set in before you had words. So to be aware of that and like moves move with great care in that space, and then also and move with great care in that space. I forgot what the next thing I was going to say was, but yeah, that that has just been very profound. Yeah,
Josh Lavine 1:04:31
yeah. That feels extremely profound to me too, yeah, just like how much our pre verbal inner, inner space actually is the engine and foundation of our whole lives, in a way that we just aren't really that aware of on a day to day basis, or we don't become aware of until we really start looking, yeah,
Tracy 1:04:56
and I think for people who have had, I'm sorry I keep interrupting you. No, no, go, go. Okay. I think people who have had, like, real intense trauma, you know, in some ways, they become more aware of it, because it becomes such an issue, right? Not saying, not saying, that's what we want, but it's one of it's one of my, my supervisor, shell Rauch, who's amazing, talks about like the terrible gift, right? You don't wish that this would happen, and there is a gift in it, a terrible gift, yeah? But many of us have have more subtle forms of neglect or just just sub optimal. Now, I'm using that word freely, sub optimal, tending to as infants and so and that's not any that that has so many layers. That's not like the parents fault. It's like society makes it really hard. We don't even have maternity leave or parental leave in this country. You know, like in can, I grew up in Canada, there's a year of parental leave. Don't get me started, yeah. So I think it's, I think when I found that out, I thought, Oh, this is why, this is the cause of the root of America's problems like that, infants don't get attention, enough attention, and parents are strong. Have to be like, pulled thin trying to reach the needs of a entirely dependent infant, and, like, capitalism and paying their bills.
Josh Lavine 1:06:31
Oh, man, that's a whole can of worms. But yeah, I I really could not agree more. I feel I've been, as I said, right before I got on this call, I've been doing all this research about the the whole pre verbal period of infancy, where, as you beautifully said, all these things are being learned, and your kind of relational patterns are getting mapped, and things like that, just how, how important that time is, and how it's just like parenting is so important. It's so important for for and then having parents resourced and having and and not pulled away from these, like, very important years anyway, it's just, wow, wow. I have a so much to say about that, but it's just Oh, my God.
Tracy 1:07:18
I kind of like whatever. Let's just stay on Yeah, yes. I just it makes me like, yes, like,
Josh Lavine 1:07:28
yeah, it's a major, major, major fucking deal.
Tracy 1:07:31
It's a major deal. And again, these kinds of thoughts have helped me reframe some of the experiences I had in my at training, where it felt I felt so cared for in a body way that, like, sometimes, I've never said this out loud, but sometimes I'd have in my head like, I'd be like, Hi Anne, and my brain would be like, mom
and And like, I can notice, I would notice that, and try not to, like, lean into that, because that's that's not what she was offering me. You know, she was training me in Alexander technique, but understanding that that attachment to feeling is there and influenced how you know and like that, that that kind of tender, attuned, patient touch is kind of a doorway into the infant state, into healing, so The Infant and Early pre verbal experiences, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Josh Lavine 1:08:44
Well said, and I can't I it's, I have so much more on this topic. It's such a it's such a big topic, but,
Tracy 1:08:53
yeah, why don't we come maybe we can have another conversation about it. I would love to, yeah, that we should do that. And there's a book I would recommend. It's my favorite parenting book. It's called nurturing resilience, by Kathy Kane, and someone that she collaborates with, apologize for not but if you, if you Google nurturing resilience, and it talks about, really, the first six weeks of life. But there's, and I do want to say, just for anyone listening, like, my the great hope in all of this is like, even if you do have challenging experiences in those early years, what I'm saying is like, you can go in and work with them and shift your your state, right? Like, or shift your platform. Like, it's not, it's not like, Oh no, that happened to me. Dang, I'm fucked, right? It's like, that's the hopefulness with people who really work with that realm,
Josh Lavine 1:09:46
yeah, and that's, and that's part of the whole reason to engage with a somatic modality, because it actually gets, it gets to those levels. It gets those pre verbal levels, yeah. Yeah,
Tracy 1:10:00
and I'm saying this maybe partly for myself and partly for you listeners, that sometimes you might not understand what's shifting, but it will shift nonetheless. Sometimes it is as it I mean, hopefully there's an integration where we can, like, understand also, because meaning is, like, a really helpful tool, like making meaning out of what we've experienced. And sometimes you might see a somatic practitioner or even just a body worker, not just a body worker, but I just mean someone who's more focused on, say, massage or craniosacral therapy, or even an Alexander Technique practitioner who's not also an SE practitioner. And there can be these major shifts, and there might not be mental understanding, and that's also really, really valid and cool and helpful to have those shifts without the understanding.
Josh Lavine 1:10:51
Yeah, from an Enneagram point of view, I think of it from like the the body and the heart have their things going on. You know that the mental center just won't catch up to and we, we tend to soothe ourselves with understanding, yeah, and we feel more in control when we have an understanding. And sometimes, part of sometimes part of these processes is, I, like, really appreciate what you're saying, because a lot of times when, especially if you're new, if you're or if you're really confused about what the hell is happening to you, or if you're starting to process a traumatic experience and you're just, yeah, you just don't know what's going on. You're being overwhelmed by tears all of a sudden, or shaking or whatever, yeah, yeah, things are shifting tectonically underneath your mental understanding that will integrate in the
Tracy 1:11:39
future totally. That's so helpful. And I think that's where the role of a practitioner just kind of not being phased by this kind of thing is helpful. And if you're working by yourself to, you know, to try to cultivate a little bit of trust in that tech, I love that tectonic shift and and trust, trusting that, yeah, yeah,
Josh Lavine 1:12:04
I guess I'll say, as a kind of reflection, I just, I love the way that you kind of embody these modalities in yourself. And like, there were moments that you kind of like, you know, took a second for yourself and just kind of recentered and, yeah, yeah. I just, I sent so many people to you, and I just, I really, I really think you're an amazing practitioner of this stuff in a like a real teacher, like embodying and living it, you know. So thanks, Josh, yeah,
Tracy 1:12:37
working with everyone that you send my way. It's it's an honor.
Josh Lavine 1:12:42
Cool. Well, thank you so much. I really appreciate it. It's great to talk with you. Likewise. Thank you so much for tuning in to my conversation with Tracy Einstein. I think Tracy is an incredible practitioner and a true teacher. And if you'd like her and you'd like to check out her work, then you can go to tracy.com where you can learn about her work with Alexander Technique semantic experiencing, and the way that she works with artists and performers and people who've experienced trauma and all that kind of stuff. All of it is there at Tracy einstein.com and I'll put a link in the show notes. I'll also put a link to some of the resources that she mentioned in our conversation, for example, some of the books that she mentioned on polyvagal theory and things like theory and things like that. If you are watching this on YouTube, then I invite you to please click the like button, and also please click Subscribe. What you do, what happens when you click subscribe is that you will get notifications when we release new videos. Videos are typically interviews, just like this, where we interview, I interview people who are practitioners of different modalities of inner work. And I also interview people who are very good introspectors, who are who know their Enneagram type. And so I have long form interviews with people of different Enneagram types. What's the Enneagram? You say the Enneagram is a personality typing system, and also so much more than that, it is, in my view, the most powerful framework for becoming more conscious and aware of yourself and other people in the world, and we teach it over at the Enneagram school.com I invite you to go check us out there, once again, that's at the Enneagram school.com I'll also put a link to the show notes there. And while you're there, you can subscribe to our email list, and couple things happen with that when you subscribe. Then we'll send you our free nine types in one page. Quick Start Enneagram guide. And we are also in the process of creating our first ever introduction to the Enneagram course, which we're going to be announcing on our email list. So if you'd like to stay up to date with what we're doing at the Enneagram school, just get on our email list. We won't send you trash, and we'll tell you about what's going on so lots going on at the Enneagram school. Please come check us out. And finally, if you know someone who would be a very good candidate for me to interview on the show, either a really talented and well spoken practitioner of inner work or someone who has very high res. Solution, capacity for introspection, and knows their Enneagram type. I would love to hear from you. I'd like to interview you. Preference for Enneagram typed people goes to people who have been officially typed by the [email protected] who have the, in my view, world's best, most accurate Enneagram typing service. You can check them [email protected] and you can also go to their subscription service where they type celebrities in real time every week. Okay, that's it for me. Thank you for watching, and I will see you next time you.
