Kristen 0:00
Shadow can be really hard to find when you're in waking life and you're kind of just already in your automatic way of thinking and stuff. But like with dreams, it it sets it up for you that, like those figures, are parts of you that are literally outcasted and put into this other face and symbol and is interacting with you in mainstream psychology, like
Kaisa 0:23
unconscious is often associated with stuff like trauma. But that's not all that it is. It's like a major source of creativity and life force and like a path for our blossoming
Josh Lavine 0:42
Welcome to another episode of what it's like to be you. I'm Josh Lavine, your host, and today I'm joined by two out of the three Dream Girls from the insomnia podcast, Kristen Oberly and Kaisa Jauhiainen. I'm really excited to spotlight their work. Over the last year and a half, they have made some really significance, in my view, discoveries about the connections between the dream world and the instinctual drives, and also your anagrams hype. I want to say up front that I started this journey in a place of skepticism. I was not a believer in dreams or dream work. I know that they have a very long history in the psycho analytic tradition, and that Freud and young and a lot of their contemporaries believed in the power of dreams, and that dreams are very important dream analysis, etc. But, you know, coming from a modern perspective, I just didn't really have a sense of what they actually had to offer. And the Dream Girls have really blown open the door for me on that. And so I want to present to you that dreams are a real way to work with yourself. It's a genuine avenue for inner work, and it's one that you can get things from dreams that you can't get anywhere else. You get a sense of what actually populates your unconscious mind. What are the archetypal symbols that have personal meaning for you, that also connect to the collective unconscious, and as you'll hear Kristen and Kaiser talk about their emphasis on having a creative relationship with your dreams and your unconscious, where it's not just you're applying cookie cutter templated this symbol means X, kinds of things, but there's an alchemy that happens in the act of interpreting a dream itself that opens up new pathways for understanding yourself, for opening up fresh energy in Your Life, for unblocking instinctual blocks for working with your instinctual blind spot, etc, etc. There's so many applications of this, and I'm just really excited. I'm really excited to showcase their work, and I want to let you know that Kristen and Kaiser are going to be offering a class together through the Enneagram school starting September 15. It's an eight week program, and the whole point of it is to help you learn, first of all how to dream if you don't dream, to learn how to remember your dreams if that's if that's a struggle for you, to learn how to extract the kinds of insights that can really move your inner life forward and that actually can give you even outer results in your life that can shift the tectonic plates of your inner world and decalcify your sense of your rigid sense of who you are, and open up new, fresh energy for you. So I'm really, really thrilled about that, and more announcements about that coming down the pike. Subscribe to our email list through theenneagramschool.com if you want to learn more about that. And without further ado, I want to get to the interview. Quick word of warning. We spend the first 1015, minutes talking through a dream that I had. It was the first dream that I had when I first met Kristen. And so if you want to skip that, it's just a bunch of me talking. Get 15 minutes into the episode, and that's where they start. Okay? Without further ado, here are the Dream Girls, Kristen and Kaisa.
All right, so you guys have been really busy in the last couple of years. I think, how you guys? How long have you guys been doing since Omnia years? Yeah, right, right, yeah, okay, I don't know. We're missing your the third leg of the table, the third dream girl. So shout out to Sammy.Sorry. Yeah, but you guys are doing a dreams and the Enneagram class at the Enneagram school coming up.
So wanted to get you guys on to talk about kind of what you've been up to and what you've discovered in the last couple years. And I thought it would be interesting to start this conversation by talking about a dream that I had that, Kristen, you helped me interpret over a year ago, and I still have the write up that that we kind of like went back and forth with the total, the total amount of words that we created was over 11 pages, and that was partly, yeah, that was partly me Writing. Those you asking me questions, and that was partly your analysis of the dream. But actually, I want to set up some context about it, because
it was around the first of all, I have never had a very strong relationship with my dream world, and so when you.
Who started kind of getting into the group, and then they brought you on for that, like four part dream episode. And when I first met you,
I was, I was in this place of like, yeah, I don't know. I like dreams, you know. And and
then something really surprised me, which was, like I listened to the b, h e podcast about dreams that you had, that they had you on to do, and everyone had their own dreams, and you interpreted everyone's dreams for them and stuff like that. And then I had a conversation with Emeka one on one, where he was like, Hey, man, why aren't you into this? And I was like, and I was like,
Well, I couldn't, I can tell that there's something here for me, but I'm but I am scared of it. I just, I could feel, I felt, I was clear that I was resisting it, not because I was just skeptical, but also because I was scared, because it felt very exposing.
Anyway. So, so that's some context about where I was starting from in this journey. And I think that's maybe relatable, because I think a lot of people a don't know how to dream, don't dream very consciously, don't remember their dreams,
and also maybe just have some skepticism about, like, what, what the world of dreams and sleep has to offer to them. It's like, that's something you do at night and it happens during the day. Yeah, it's quite common too, for people to, like, belittle dream work as well and be afraid of it, because, yeah, the unconscious is quite a scary place to be. Yeah, yeah.
So I know I'm making this all about me right now, but I'm gonna just start by, I'm gonna, I'm gonna just, I think it'd be interesting to to just lay out the dream that I had, and then that'll be something that we can kind of work with and push off of. And then we'll get into the more general territory of like, why dreams are important, what work you've been doing, what you've been discovering, what dreams offer to the work of the Enneagram and inner work in general, and all that kind of stuff. So it's not good, yeah, okay, all right. So I'm gonna just read some of what I wrote to you over a year ago. I wrote this is gonna be embarrassing to read out loud, but okay, I read. So this first section is important life context, and it's short number one, I'm starting a five week dating program today. That was so that was, yeah, it was over a year and a half ago that I'm terrified and excited about lots about that years of Arrested Development with the sex and romance, sexual blind image type, not feeling like getting help with quote, unquote game would be acceptable socially, etc. Bullet Point two, I listened to the PHE dream episodes within the last week three, and I this is what I just talked about. I talked to Emeka before they released, and he mentioned dreams, and I admit it, I'm fascinated, but don't have a personal relationship with them, and I regard them with reverence and terror. And then finally, I used to have a recurring dream where I couldn't fight or throw a punch when it was necessary. And I haven't had that dream in about a year since I got super angry with my mom and yelled at her in a way that I've never before. That's a whole other thing that maybe we get into. Okay, here's the dream I'm with my crew in the dating program, the dating coaching program. The coach is probably a seven. His face is clear. The others are faceless in the dream. His tagline approach is called quote, idea, project management game, which represents, which represents the idea of being out at a bar or wherever and having an idea of something fun to do and getting other people involved in it, slash excited about it, and which contrasts with more, quote, technical approach of being a certain kind of polish or skilled in your demeanor. I'm talking about being like skilled with game. So this is the idea, project management. Game approach is more fun and collaborative. So we're walking through some basic looking town with concrete structures, playgrounds, a basketball court, etc. We're heading back to camp. We pack and repack our backpacks, and I'm not sure whether to bring my computer. I don't I'm packing my bag, and apparently everyone has their stuff together, except for a few of us in the cabin. We're late for departure because we're taking too long to pack the coach calls us fucking idiots and is annoyed. We finally go, and I feel like a dork trance, traipsing around with my backpack having been scolded. I also feel insubstantial and somehow know and have a visual of the laptop compartment being open and empty. I feel like there's nothing else in it, although there's although there presumably is, like a beach towel and a water bottle. Then the coach holds up the whole group by swinging on a tire swing. He doesn't manage the project or get anyone involved. He's just having his own. And fun. I'm watching him. I'm annoyed because he's being hypocritical, but he's the coach, and I make up a lesson because it probably means something about game or being free or being self amusing, and I really don't want this to be the lesson. All right, so there's a little more, by the way, I want to say this is what was so crazy to me about this, was that I really can't remember a time in my life when I've had a dream as clear and narrative as this, and it was prompted by like, the fact that you came on the B he episode, and then I had that conversation with Emeka, and just all this about dreams. Anyway. So it was shocking to me that I had this dream, and then the fact that I had this dream was essentially the reason I reached out to you, because I was like, All right, this there's obviously something happening here. All right, so continuing in the dream. We're all sleeping now, I wake up in the dream, so I realize I'm still dreaming, but I realized that I was asleep in the dream, and I wake up. I don't know where I am. I know that I've been dreaming, and the dream was dry about tasks, my clients, basic things that I normally dream about, which is actually true, and I judge myself for having such stereotypical three ish, task oriented dreams, and for not having a better morning and bedtime ritual to clear my consciousness of work, because it's obviously so overcrowding my inner space that it's infiltrated and overwhelmed and conscious, which has no room to do its thing. This is all the awareness I'm having. Literally, in the dream, I know there is a dream interpreter, you Kristen nearby, the whole bhe ennegram crew is there, although faceless, and they're laughing. I'm separate from the group. I've had a dream, but don't really want an interpreter. I feel a pressure to go to the group and have it interpreted, although no one is pressuring me, and I refuse the pressure. The dream was a flashing sequence of practical work related tasks, and you make an interpretation in a very excited certain way that annoys me and makes me skeptical. Everyone else is laughing and thinks your interpretation is really profound, I start shaking. My body's having a reaction, and I can't do anything to stop it. It's not that I mind shaking, but I don't want to be shaking right now in front of the group, which I'm annoyed with for laughing and believing your interpretation and thinking they see something about me that I don't and which is clearly trying to get my attention via this shaking. I know that this is something powerful, but I feel it's more holistic than the specific interpretation you gave, and I feel missed and annoyed, but now I also can't stop shaking you and the others ask if I want help and look concerned. I definitely do not want your help. Okay, sorry. This is actually a long dream. I forgot how long this was. Okay, no, I start, I start walking away, and now I'm pretty sure everyone is asleep. By the way. I don't think I wrote this down, but I'm aware We're literally at a beach. There's, it's a beach scene. Um, I'm alone. I'm seized by a pain in my back. I try to ignore it. I try to shift, but it's got me I consider turning back to you guys. It seizes me again. The idea of going back is triggering it, making it worse. So going back is out of the question. So I keep going. Now I'm on steps further away. I've run there, literally. I remember like, running on the beach, and there was like, like, ocean to my right, steps to my left, and I go up the steps, there are grass and rocks. I'm on my back trying to fight the pain. I pound the ground, fighting something invisible that has me. It keeps seizing me. It's painful. I hit the ground. I'm punching the ground. I'm proud of myself for punching strong. Unlike previous dreams, like the recurring dream, I'm actually hitting the ground and making contact, and it's helping a dog comes, is friendly and nosing me, tries to interrupt me, but I don't want to be interrupted. I keep pounding the ground on my back, turning over to punch the ground. I think the dog literally gets swept away by my arms as I'm writhing and punching. And now it's gone. I'm hitting dirt and rocks and wondering if it's doing anything, and it seems to be helping. Then I hear the whistle of a lifeguard. I now realize that I'm laying on grassy, rocky steps that lead down to a beach, which is where we all were hanging out and sleeping before there's a wave coming. I wonder, I somehow I have the awareness of waves coming. I wonder, Should I get my bag and computer? I don't I go into the house, which I didn't realize was right next to me on my right. The house is normal, pleasant, yellow, beige Tomes, kind of comfortable and nondescript. And then the water comes a huge amount of water, massively surprising amount, not violently, like a tidal wave, but rising all at once from the beach to the stairs. Quickly, it fills the first floor of the House, and I'm on the second the beach below is submerged completely. Completely. I realized that Jesse, my brother, is down there. Somehow, I realized that in that moment, the woman whose house this is who I don't recognize, but she's young and motherly and blonde, and who recognizes and knows and expects me, starts closing windows. I'm watching the water line rise on all the beach facing windows, so I'm literally in the house now, like I'm looking at the windows and I can see the ocean rising. She's surprised, but not worried. The water rises up past all the window sills and latches on the second floor where I am. I look towards the door I entered and consider running outside and diving in and saving my brother, but I hesitate. Will I be able to make it? I question. I judge myself for not just being more instinctual and fucking going. I hear a glass crack. The water has broken a window on this floor. It will be gushing towards me. Soon. Everything will be underwater. The mom knows this. We will all be swallowed by water. I'm not that scared, and then I wake up. So that's the dream, yeah, all right, so again, I really want to emphasize I've never had a dream like this before. Never, ever. My dreams are usually impressionistic and just I barely remember them, and there's not a narrative through line, and it's just images. You know, this is the first time I had something with this concrete and, yeah, so maybe, all right, I'll just shut up now, and you guys can say some things.
Kristen 16:36
Well, that's actually the first time kaisa that you've heard that that's true, right?
Kaisa 16:39
Yeah, it is the first time,
Kristen 16:43
yeah, so I got shivers at the end again.
Kaisa 16:48
Yeah, that's that seems major. I really like how the storyline is clearly and the narrative is like wanting so clearly to show something to you. And even showing your reaction to going to Kristen and have it interpreted is like a message to you when I
Josh Lavine 17:12
when I went to you Kristen, to help interpret this dream. One of the things that was really interesting to me was that, like I had my own interpretation of what the dream meant, and my interpretation kind of aligned to what my quote, unquote, Dream ego thought, you know, like all the self judgment inside the dream about being socially self conscious, and let's see, feeling missed, you know, by the group and by you, for interpreting a dream in the way that I didn't like feel seen by. And let's see what else. Oh, my own self judgment for having task oriented dreams, all that stuff was like my use the term dream ego, and then essentially made the point that that's not what the dream is showing you. You know the what the dream the unconscious actually is creating this kind of symbolic world to reflect something at you that has nothing to do with what your dream ego is interpreting or thinking. And that was like a huge that completely changed the way I understood dreams, right?
Kristen 18:17
Yeah, um, I think, yeah, most people don't exactly like, I guess, understand like they they will fall in line into what the dream ego is thinking or feeling. So like they get into a fight in a dream or something, and then they wake up and they're like, yeah, that person was stupid, and they deserve to have gotten fought with, or whatever that like there would kind of be no purpose for a dream that's kind of just solidifying what's already happening and solidifying the attitude. So it's really allowing, it's kind of like putting on some kind of play or show. It's your own theater. It's showing you, kind of like the the face of what is going on in the present moment. So you are able to look around and it's all coming from you. So it's just different kind of autonomous beings and settings and stuff that you get to explore differently and see your own actions in the dream differently. So like, every part of that dream is somewhere in you and your way of connecting to yourself and others. And so when you kind of see it in that sense, it leaves more creative room to start to understand what the message could be that is something that you haven't already thought of.
Josh Lavine 19:45
Yeah, yeah. One thing you said to me was like, all of the all of the people and places that are in your dream are parts of you that are sort of you. You've projected into this, like symbolic image, and so they represent something about you. You know, like you mentioned, like the coach swinging on the tire swing is a part of my shadow, yeah, that kind of
Kristen 20:12
thing, yeah. This is where shadow work gets super interesting. I know, like most people kind of know what that means, what that term is, but dreams are like a because shadow can be really hard to find when you're in waking life and you're kind of just already in your automatic way of thinking and stuff. But like with dreams, it it sets it up for you that, like those figures, are parts of you that are literally outcasted and put into this other face and symbol and is interacting with you. So yeah, there it's kind of allowing more room in understanding ourselves as well, because we kind of do have, like a rigid idea of who we are, what we do, what we don't do. And this is a very huge acceptance of the parts of us that we don't typically acknowledge or aren't even aware of, that we're either pushing out or disregarding.
Josh Lavine 21:13
So like in that particular case where, like, there's this dating coach who my dream ego is judging and annoyed with for holding up the group and kind of just doing his own damn thing, swinging on a tire swing, not actually coaching the program and maybe teaching me a lesson that I don't want to learn. So can you like, how would you what would you say to or like, given that that was kind of like what the dream showed, my dream ego's reaction to this, and then what, what, I guess, like this, the distinction between my dream ego, who's judging the coach in the dream, and then the coach, which is actually a part of me projected into this figure, and what that means, or something like that. How would you kind of go about approaching that?
Kaisa 22:04
Well, the dream, dream ego is, in a way, describing your habitual consciousness, I would say. And the coach is an aspect of your psyche that is outside of your habitual consciousness. And so your dream ego doesn't want to learn this lesson that your psyche is trying to show you, knowing that there is a lesson, but not wanting to learn it because it's threatening the ego. I that
Josh Lavine 22:42
tracks, yeah, yeah.
Kaisa 22:48
Like taking all that backpacks and laptops and all that itinerary, itinerary and stuff, it's like very three competency way of approaching things like, Yes, this is how I will manage the world. But like, not not knowing your associations, personal associations and stuff very well. But the lesson there, it would seem to me, is that you will find your connection to the world without the stuff, you don't need your pack backs and preparations to do it. It's worldly to be enjoyed, you know, and that's a very big blow to your ego. I don't
Josh Lavine 23:35
know what you're talking about. I always need my I always need my backpack and computer.
Kristen 23:44
Yeah, I think I even that's basically what I wrote. I think when, when we Yeah, I bet you, yeah. It's just that, that stark contrast between productivity and systemizing versus kind of spontaneity and playing in that way, yeah, yeah,
Josh Lavine 24:02
I'm, I'm curious what else you're seeing in the dream. I And I know there's, I know there's a lot in it. And so it's as now that we're here, in this moment of the conversation, I'm almost wondering if it was just too big of a thing to have be concrete enough to push off of. But I
Kristen 24:15
have a way that I see something Enneagram related, and also just encompassing the whole dream. The whole dream, I remember, you know, feeling and it's, it's, can be very similar to my own dreams, because of your social so there, you know, your instincts are deeply unconscious everyone's instincts are and dreams are a way that you can bring your instincts to consciousness and actually understand what they're trapped in, and usually it is some kind of really strong archetypal charge underneath each instinct so the. Biggest thing that I saw with your dream was that there's this social three, like, value being externalized and especially like, you know, competency and judgment, like it's the person you are is determined by how other people are receiving or judging you or perceiving you. And so there's that moment kind of in the middle where the dog comes up to you and you're just kind of assertively like, wanting to get your frustration out, wanting to get this pain out. And the dog, as we've kind of discovered in our podcast, is like a huge social symbol, because you think of dogs as being incredibly social, unconditional love, like belonging, that it comes up to you and it tries to Get your attention, and you're just too into your own, you know, assertive grounding, like releasing this aggression, and that's kind of like the pivotal turning point of that dream where you're now isolated and you get overwhelmed by This water, which is a huge symbol of the unconscious and dreams and stuff like that, that it's it's showing like to just how much like the the inner value system is more important. So like, you're trying to understand your sense of belonging, but you aren't going to get it from external sources. You're not going to receive it from people all the time. Like, that's important, and it's important to connect, but like, what part of you is actually making the effort to connect if you're not connected with that inner sense of belonging. So that's why I think too, like even working on any part of the Enneagram, but especially the instincts. It's really hard to know what to do, per se, with instincts, if you aren't connected with the internal source of that instinct, that internal resonance with the instinct. So it's like, even if it's your dominant instinct, it is still unconscious, and you need to, kind of, you know, release it from all of its you kind of like, external complexes, and be able to connect with that inner archetypal charge of the instinct. So the fact that you're swallowed by all of this water, then is like your unconscious demands you to be in it in order to understand how to actually connect both with yourself and then with others.
Josh Lavine 27:58
Yeah. Okay, one thing that I that I think I realized I was skeptical about unconsciously, but then, like talking about dreams kind of brought this to the surface for me, was we talk about how, or like you asked me in before you interpreted the dream, you asked me what my personal associations are with, for example, with dogs, with water, with the group, with you. And so you kind of made the effort to ground your interpretation in the relevance of the relevance of these symbols to my inner world, at least my conscious inner world. And then there's this whole realm of like, unconscious associations that, like the collective unconscious, and what symbols mean in abstraction or in general. And, yeah, there's something. There's just something about that. It's like, kind of, it's like a like you mentioned, a dog has a particular social charge in general, and when dogs appear in dreams, it generally means something social, or that water represents the unconscious. And so there's almost like a way that there's a there's almost like an encyclopedia of unconscious symbols that have a constant meaning across people, like, no matter where you see them, in dreams, and speaking as a person who, like, has very, very little interaction with dreams or understanding or he, I don't know, a lot of other people's dream stories and stuff like that, I noticed, like, a piece of me gets skeptical when I hear like, oh, whenever this shows up, it means x, or it represents x and so, and I know Jung had the whole consciousness concept of the collective unconscious, which you would be a lot more eloquent speaking about. But there is, there is this idea, right, that things mean things in a more general way than just what they mean to the individual. Cool. And so can you talk about that?
Kristen 30:04
Yes, one of the things I would say about that, I think, is that it you should always be careful not to assign definite meanings to things. And usually when I say, like, Oh, it's a very social image, or like or or social symbol, or water is like the unconscious. It's like a symbol for the unconscious. The thing about understanding symbols versus like kind of signs, I guess, like definitive meanings of things, is that a symbol allows much more room for mystery, like when I say the symbol of the ocean, and you put yourself into that dream, like we all put our we could all put ourselves into that dream with You the symbol, once you actually feel like the ocean rising up and kind of swallowing you in this house. Like that is what I mean by the unconscious. Like it is something that just swallows you whole. Like the symbol of a dog being social isn't like this means the social instinct, period. Like, there's always a social can mean so much more than just like how I express social or the social instinct of the Enneagram or something like that, that a symbol allows much more room for it to be a resonance and a feeling than a literal interpretation and a literal answer. So just like anybody who's into Enneagram work, they may see a description of six, but then there's like a whole feeling and resonance of what type six is. And so that's kind of what raising things in a bit more of a collective sense, in a symbolic sense, is like, if you had a fear of dogs, I wouldn't have really gone as much as a, you know, collective understanding of what a dog feels like as a symbol. You know what I mean, like there, then you work with it very differently. And so it's kind of like, yeah, it's, it's less of like a literal interpretation period the end, put it away, and it's like allowing the symbol to live as a feeling and a resonance.
Kaisa 32:30
And this is why dream work is important when we work with Enneagram and the instincts is that, like you know, you now have a symbolic dog that evokes an experience in you, like an experience that you can that is a pathway to the depths of your being. And so when you start to work with this symbol, you now have a way of working with your depths, your unconscious, with your lived experience. So it's not just like an intellectual exercise anymore. It's an experience that transforms you.
Josh Lavine 33:09
Well, said, Yeah, I think this is, I'm getting a sense of an underlying theme around what you're exploring. One way to to express it is, there is a way that in the Enneagram, because the Enneagram has is, is attempting to create this, like precise map of your inner world. It can be kind of boxy. And so when you start working with symbols in this more felt sense or exploratory way, it opens things up a lot. And so there's more breathing room and more angles into your depths, more pathways to explore yourself than just like, reading a type description and sort of seeing the formula of your type and how you get out of touch with yourself, or something like
Kaisa 33:54
that and back. Yeah, because
Kristen 33:55
you, you can have, like, a description and like, um, say you, you talk about, like, the the ocean is the unconscious. It's like, okay, there's a sentence there, and it's like, All right, great, now I can just forget about that sentence, just like I can forget about lots of descriptions of Enneagram types. Or I just know that it's there and it's like, what do I do about it? Like, yes, I'm a nine, and I do these nine description things. And so like allowing something to be more of a symbol, it does have much more breathing room, and it's a much more alive. And like when you actually feel into the symbol of the ocean being the unconscious, it feels a certain way inside of you, and it moves something inside of you, like that. That's kind of like when you start then linking up where exactly you are, your Enneagram type and like, where is so like with social like, how social you can read social descriptions. And it says, like, you know you. You're gonna be your attention is gonna be on people and blah, blah, blah, blah, like you can read those descriptions. You can feel a certain way about it, but then to feel the social theater play out in your dreams at night gives you a much more personal and alive, like almost mythology of your social instinct and your connection to it. And that's why even like for someone then who's social blind, you know, the connecting to their instinct and feeling that resonance and lifting it out of a place of pain or wounding, like our blind spot will do, can help then, a social blind person to better actually connect with that instinct and therefore with others, instead of keeping it in a place of pain and like, almost demonization or something.
Josh Lavine 35:55
Wow, I think, I think I'm having this insight in real time. So I, I asked you about, like, these kind of universal definitions of the collective of symbols that have meaning, like, and then you kind of corrected me, you know, you said, well, actually, no, it's not that. It's like, yeah. I mean, sort of everyone has a particular relationship with dog or maybe water could mean something in a universal sense, but there's some meeting between the way that you relate to that symbol, the way it's functioning in the dream itself, and the collective kind of way we hold it, or something like that. There's some alchemy that happens in that particular instantiation of that symbol, you know? And yeah, you use the word personal mythology. And I love that idea, because people, myself included, get really attached to like their the way they see themselves and their self descriptions and the labels and the maps that they hold that sense of self within. And I think what you're saying is that dreams are essentially a creative way to dissolve those maps, or to, like, start blurring the lines of those maps and develop a more inside out kind of Parthenon of your own images that populate your sense of who the fuck you are. Is that kind of what you're
Kristen 37:28
saying? Yeah, that's what we're saying.
Josh Lavine 37:32
Okay,
Kristen 37:34
yeah, I think it's, it is like, I think that's the again, another like way to see how we are so quick to literalize things rather than to see them as something more symbolic or alive. And it's like this, yeah, like this is who I am. These are the things I'm willing to do, not do. These are the people I associate with. These are the people I don't here's what I think I know about myself. And then that's why you know you have a dream, and it says the complete opposite of like everything. It's putting you in different scenarios that challenge what you think you know about yourself, because like and it gives you an image to exist in that is reflecting your state of being that day that the ego is just not keeping track of at all. So becoming a bit more creative with the connection to that is also strengthening the ego, and it's and what you think you know of yourself, because you're a bit more fluid then like and not so rigid in in how you relate to yourself and other people. I we said it before the recording, but the unconscious isn't really mentioned in Enneagram. Oh, yeah, go, go there. Yeah, yeah, that. I think it is like, um, I mean, I'm sure there's, there's lots of ways that, like, obviously unconscious motivations and behaviors and stuff are mentioned with Enneagram type and instinct and stuff like that. But like to have your personal unconscious, which is, if you want to get into Jungian framework, like Jung believed that we have a personal unconscious, which is often, you know, the childhood home in dreams, and my parents in dreams. And so those are the things that are kind of like blocking your ability to actually have that creative energy from the unconscious. And so, like, I'm surprised that, I mean, like, I'm sure there's, you know, jungians who know about the Enneagram and that work with it and stuff, but especially seeing it in the world of dreams and symbols and images, in the way that we have throughout our podcast. Like, there's a way that, like Enneagram. Work and understanding personality and then what's underneath that, in order to really, like, loosen the grip of the personality structure in a very unique and personal and individual way, is, like, super important, and which is why I said, kind of in the beginning, that it's one thing to read descriptions and to understand it conceptually in, you know, in in a way that someone else has already described, and how that applies to you and every other person of your type. But like working with unconscious material and personal, unconscious material can really help you understand, like, what exactly is your connection with your instincts and your type, and what exactly is having them stuck in such a rigid structure? And I think that's like one of the most important things when talking about like inner work, like that is very deeply inner work to me. Well,
Josh Lavine 40:59
said, yeah, so this sort of like this, this invitation, like, when you have a dream, or you remember a dream, and it presents this world of symbols to you to almost like, sit with it in a meditative way and then let it decalcify ways that you've seen yourself, or something like that. I'm actually like, Yeah, I'm kind of, um, it's really potent for me, excuse me, right now in this moment of my life, because, like in this moment of my life, I'm, like, all over the place. I just got an Akashic Records reading, which is something I never would have expected I do, uh, Michael teachings. You know, I just got my I'm getting my ops type. I'm I realized. I realized how, in the last few months, I've realized how rigid my sense of self has been for the last few years, and my own personal mythology, or like the way I see myself, is on the precipice of a radical shift. I can just, I just can feel it, and I'm looking for new ways to see myself, because I because I feel stuck. I feel stuck in the way that I'm seeing myself, and it's showing up in the in like the way I approach building the school. It's showing up in the way that I live my life. And so there's all these things happening, like, I'm, I'm the tectonic plates are of my life are both shifting under me and also, like, I'm taking an assertive approach to shift them myself as a three. But it's like, like, i Something needs to change, and some new way of seeing myself needs to emerge. And, yeah, it's just interesting to, like, think about the invitation that dreams have for that project, because it's like, you really don't know where it's going to take you. You know, it's like a dream. Well, I mean, it's, it's not something that you have control over. You know what the unconscious shows you? And so it's, that's why they're scary, but it's also, yeah, why they're powerful. And the kind of crazy thing about dreams is that they are, they're not coming from anywhere else, you know, they're in you it's, it's like, that's maybe why that that's maybe why it's so terrifying, or why it was so terrifying to me to approach it. Because I'm like, I could take, for example, I could get an Akashic Records reading, and then essentially just dismiss it, you know, because I'm like, whatever that doesn't make any sense or and there's a kind of journey to, like, how much you want to buy into the realness of it or not, and let it affect you. And a similar thing happens with dreams, but it's kind of like, if you let it in. Well, sorry. The point I was making is that, like, a dream is generated from within. You know, it's not an external framework that's being imposed, and the way you like, sit with it. Yeah, can have some real anyway. I'm gonna trail off here. But that's I'm finding. I feel like this is really potent. I just, I'm kind of, like, really having this insight in inside in real time. You know what I mean? I'm like, wow, like, oh yeah. Dreams are personal. It's like a personal thing, you know, yeah,
Kristen 44:09
which is why I could, I don't under like, to me, it's, it's, how could you not be curious about something like that? You know what I mean? That it's just like these images, spontaneous images coming up every night or whenever you have them. And like, even if they're like more boring or like you're, you said, and even in your dream, those ones that are just like your jobs or tasks you're doing like it now exists in a in an entirely symbolic realm, like all of those mundane things can now take on a symbolic meaning, and you can have a symbolic connection with them. And it's just like to not be curious in that I wouldn't understand. Like, that's so interesting. And, yeah, it's all coming from. You from who you know, somewhere else, some spiritual existence somewhere else. Like it could be messages, whatever. Like it's there's so much lore that you can make around it, and there has been throughout time and cultures, like, it's the most interesting thing, yeah, why not develop a relationship with it? Yeah.
Josh Lavine 45:25
I Well, Kristen, I know you've been sort of living half in half out the dream world for your whole life. You know, yeah, but like, Kaiser is our dreams newer territory for you, so, like, than they are for Kristen, for example. And, yeah, yeah, okay.
Kaisa 45:41
It's way newer territory. I mean, I I do have a my own long path of inner work and whatever stuff. But, like, I think I started working with dreams when I met Kristen, or it's like, almost two years ago, one and a half years ago, and she interpreted a dream for me, and I was struck by how potent it was, and from that point on, I feel like we are somehow on a journey together.
Josh Lavine 46:16
Yeah, that strikes me. It's true. Can you talk about what's happened in your life since you started really developing a relationship, a conscious relationship, with your dream
Kaisa 46:30
world? Okay, that's a big one.
Kristen 46:34
What happened? Yeah,
Kaisa 46:38
I would say a lot has happened. I have, like, really changed in ways that I never thought I could, and I feel very much at home with myself like as I have expanded the scope of my being to not be just like a personal personality structure, or just like a reaction to my structure, but something that's emerging authentically from me, like life force wanting to experience itself through me. And we started with the instincts and with self preservation. And I had this dream where I experienced what it actually feels like like, what self preservation feels like, and then I knew to look for it in my life. And and
Josh Lavine 47:34
you're self pressed blind, just for context,
Kaisa 47:37
yes, I am self pressed blind. So, yeah, well, what happens with blind spots is that, as you said, Kristen, there is a lot of pain and demonization, which is kind of blocking the charge and the life force of the instincts from expressing itself and so the dreams offered of you like kind of dissolving all that layer of stuff that I was carrying that was limiting in the way the instinct expresses itself. And, I mean, there's, it's a process that's never going to be ready. You know, there's always stuff to do, always, always ways to develop. And, it's a process that I'm very committed to.
Kristen 48:51
I would agree. I don't think I could ever see myself not paying attention and doing creative things and having a connection with it. I think that's why, especially with the process that we've gone through, like the way that I've even understand the connection to my own instincts, that's kind of like what we we have done on the podcast. It's like, okay, I can get a sense of maybe where this lives and what it might mean. But then we're simultaneously, like, we're being the guinea pigs as well when we're setting up. That's what you're doing. Yeah? No, I
Josh Lavine 49:27
agree. That's really Yeah.
Kaisa 49:29
Like, this has never been done before, to apply the union stuff to personality this way. So yeah. Like, yeah, we are guinea pigs here.
Kristen 49:39
Yeah. So then like to have a an experience of like, each instinct, and now we're on the centers, so it's like, what are the centers really living like inside of us and stuff like that. It's, of course, it's a very personal journey. So there are even things that we didn't share on the podcast. US, and they're things that we are still trying to understand. But mainly it's like, through our process, we're hoping that other people are having their own processes in order to understand it. And that's kind of what we, all three of us, have done on the podcast, as well as, just like, you know, outside of recording, like we're checking in. We're, you know, asking what's going on. We're talking about our life situations and how we're experiencing them. And so like it's really deepened our understanding of ourselves and the way that we're connecting to each other and then the people in our lives. And it just like, it can be a very strong container to hold all of the stuff that we go through. And I don't, I've never had that before. So it's, like, really interesting to be able to, you know, discover something like this, and then to kind of have people experience the same or, well, I mean, like in their own way.
Kaisa 51:01
Mm, hmm, like when, when you apply everything you learn from the dreams, you apply them to your connections, and they keep like, enriching each other. We sometimes keep having synchronized dreams. Our unconsciousness are, like, also befriending each other well.
Kristen 51:27
And that's, yeah, that's what's interesting, too. I mean, like, if you get into, like, all of the the Jungian stuff, it's, it's interesting to know that, like, Sure, there's like a conscious to conscious connection, right? But then there's, there's like an unconscious to unconscious connection. So, you know, like, even so, when people show up in your dreams, say it's a partner or a friend or something like that, like that, that's showing you the unconscious connection that you have with that person. Like, I was figured in your dream, Josh, that it's like, there isn't, yeah, you know, you were relating to me in one way, consciously, but then unconsciously, it's showing you a different thing. So like with, you know, with kaisa and Sammy and I, we have shown up in each other's dreams, and we've had synchronized dreams, because there's like an unconscious movement going on between us as well.
Kaisa 52:19
Yeah,
Josh Lavine 52:21
yeah. What was what? So, what was my unconscious relationship with you? How would you characterize it?
Kristen 52:27
You hated me, Josh, how dare you? I'm just kidding. Um, I mean, we talked about,
Josh Lavine 52:33
in your interpretation, you, you apologized for your unconscious self being a jerk to me. That's what I think you're I think you might have just been being an eye. I being
Kristen 52:43
a nine, yeah, sorry. No, go ahead. No, I
Josh Lavine 52:48
was just laughing because I'm well, I think that unconsciously, or here's my interpretation, but you tell me if I'm right or wrong. I think that unconsciously you represented a certain let's see, like as an image type, I have a strong trigger on people not seeing me, but this probably the strongest trigger is like, when people see me in a way that's actually accurate but doesn't conform to my self image. You know, or it's like, I'm seeing something that's true about you, but you don't see it yourself. And I have a very hostile reaction to that, you know, like a reflex, like, fuck, you know. No, you know, get out of my like, you know that that's like, what first shows up, and then I have to sit with them, be like, All right, yeah, okay. And then I have to update consciously my sense of self. But I think that you were, and it's like, you know, the whole at the time, the whole group was like, Oh my God. Like, Kristen's brilliant. She's seeing all the stuff, like, I'm learning all this new stuff about myself. And I was, like, scared of dream anyway. So you represented essentially that I that would see that, yeah, you know,
Kristen 53:59
yeah. Yeah. And it's, and it's interesting, because it's also like, I am a part of you, so like, that is also the part of you, like, intuiting or or seeing the the parts of you that are, you know, like not seen. So even in the dream you kind of, you worded it as the a dream interpreter is nearby. So it's not just Kristen. It's also the idea that I'm holding, that dreams can be seen differently and worked with and interpreted and analyzed and stuff like that. That like I am also symbolizing a figure that is able to have that connection, and to cultivate that connection, and then for you to have that experience within the dream is really interesting.
Josh Lavine 54:57
Did you have something there? Kaza, I keep seeing a GL. Your Mind. I can't tell if you're about to say something or not. You
Kaisa 55:05
have glimmering eyes, okay?
Josh Lavine 55:14
Yeah, this is the life of a sexual mind just sitting there passively with glimmering eyes. What's occurring to me is that, you know, dreams are a way, like we talked about, it's a way to kind of discover and populate your own personal mythology, which essentially so you're saying Dream Dream work is a path to individuation. You know which, like Period, end of statement, or that could be like a headline. I mean, that's like a pretty powerful thing. And I I think about that a lot as a triple attachment type myself. Like how to do that more stably, and so that's exciting. And then the other thing is that I think what you've been pulling out is like, how you have a personal sensory experience of things that are not in your normal conscious awareness. Like, for example, the set, the internal sensory experience of your blind spot, you know, like, how do you like Kaiser as a sexual blind type, like, or as a self pressed blind type, like, how do you actually feel and experience your self press instinct from the inside? And it's kind of, it's, it's counterintuitive to me that you would discover that through dreams, because one thing so I think of dreams as a kind of like, through this imaginal like, space, like not actually in the body or something, but to be able to get to the body and to a body experience of something that is not normally in your consciousness through dreams, I find that surprising and interesting. So I wonder if you could share a little more about that. We
Kaisa 56:59
do have an embodied presence in dreams.
Josh Lavine 57:05
Yes, okay, so, so I'm so I'm wrong. It's like saying, so I'm wrong. I think is what you're saying. That's great. Bring on. Yeah,
Kristen 57:20
yeah. Yeah. I think it's, it's, well, I mean, like, I say this to a lot of people, but like, you, if you've ever had a dream, like where you're really in that image or that symbol, and it disturbs you, or it brings you joy, or it makes you cry, or there's something like you have real body responses to the realm of dreams, like you you Yeah, you know, like there's you, and even if you, like, agree with the dream ego that it, you know, is beating someone up in the dream or whatever, and you're like, yeah, that person deserved it. Like, that's a real reaction to something that is supposedly fantasy, that it's like, there is, there's a real interaction with these images and scenarios and stuff like that. So that does live in the body somewhere. And it's kind of like, you know, you even think of just the experience of the dream. It feels very out of body, but it becomes incorporated into your waking life in one way or another. So it is incorporating itself into the body in some sense. Like there are a lot of, like, body based dream work stuff that you can do where, like, symbols and images and figures are worked with in the body. Like, if you've ever done breath work, that's also very like, you know you're in the body, but you're experiencing kind of images outside, focusing is
Josh Lavine 58:51
likely to which we did. Yes, yeah, interesting,
Kristen 58:55
right? What I have found, I think, is like, through working with dreams, the stuff we've done on the podcast, even just hearing your dream, and like when we sat together to interpret it and well, to look at it and understand it in a different way. Like I remember it being very profound and emotional, like even to me reading it and reflecting on it, I think it's, it's, I think it's kind of necessary for individuation to bring in an unconscious perspective and to understand what your unconscious is doing, because We can talk about the Enneagram and instincts and understand what they're doing out in the real world, like what they're doing in waking life and and meanwhile, there's all of these personal, unconscious complexes surround. Having those types of energy. So the way that you're you were brought up in your family, and the way that that one friend treated you in the past, and the way that you internalized or didn't, the the collective understanding of sexuality or something like that, like all of these things are impressed upon you as you grow up, and that's why you're always dreaming about going, you know, living in your childhood home, or you're back with your parents, driving the car, or something like that. Like these things are are constantly coming up, and it's a way to understand where all of those old things are keeping your sense of self and the way you connect to others as really rigid and the same and not changing. So individuation is that process of being an individual in the collective and if you're still stuck in collective ideals and collective mindsets, whether or not you agree with that, even reacting against them, is being stuck in them. Um, it's it's not helping with the individuation process. So to understand where all of that stuff is within you and and working within you is what dreamwork can do for both your instincts, your Enneagram, anything about personality is understood through your unconscious. That makes sense. Yeah,
Kaisa 1:01:40
absolutely,
Kristen 1:01:44
yes. I knew it.
Josh Lavine 1:01:45
I knew you had something to say. I knew it waiting for it. It wasn't just a glimmer this time. Okay, go ahead. Okay,
Kaisa 1:01:53
yes. So one thing also in in mainstream psychology, like unconscious is often associated with, like, like stuff, like trauma or, you know, like parental complexes and whatever. And these are an aspect of it as well. But that's not all that it is. It's like a major source of creativity and life force and like a path for our blossoming.
Kristen 1:02:27
And it's usually that stuff like the pain, the trauma, the childhood stuff, the way we relate, like that, is the kind of thing that is on top of and in the way of the creative and vital life force, yeah, Kaiser,
Josh Lavine 1:02:44
like, I really like what you're saying, because I feel like in there's such a thing as, like, inner work fatigue, you know, where you you just and I think it's especially true in the Enneagram world, because the Enneagram as a framework, is so precise about showing you the ways that you suffer. And so like you like, I feel like in any room work, it's often the case that you're just like, realizing, like, oh god, I've been suffering this way too, my God, and this other thing that I've not been doing, or these other like, it's just you're always realizing the ways that you're not awake or self actualized and stuff like that. And that's part of that's part of inner work. You know, it's like kerchief says we so conscious humiliation, conscious suffering. These are the necessary things that help us to grow. But also it's nice when there are, like, moments of actual opening and refreshing this. And you've, and you get, you get new energy and life force and creativity and stuff along the way. And it's not all just lugubrious, oh, seeing your shadows and stuff like that. It's also uncorking yourself and, like, actually having some kind of not to be too serious about it, but, like, a result, you know, like, like, a something that you know, like, makes you happier, or like actually just brings you more into life. I'm really stuck on this thing, not stuck, but I'm really like, I'm really struck by this relationship between creativity and the unconscious and how that is a kind of a life forward thing. And also I know that, like in the class that you guys are going to teach creativity and a creative relationship with their unconscious are really, is this really central part? So can you talk about that? Like, what is, how do you creatively engage with these, with the unconscious, and what is like? Yeah, just what's what's in that territory?
Kaisa 1:04:48
Um, well,
Kristen 1:04:51
first I would say that like establishing a creative connection is a lot. More freeing than doing the kind of, like, the discipline, like making yourself feel bad, like shadow work isn't just meant to make you feel bad. You know what I mean? Like, that's, it's, I think we're conditioned to just kind of like, shit on ourselves about the things we aren't doing and, like, the things we're doing wrong and all that stuff as well. That like having a creative connection is like seeing things kind of more for just what they are like. You know, you're experiencing your day, and then your dream kind of shows you the face of what you were being like in that day, and the essence of your being in that day in the theater that is in it that I keep saying that word, because it's like a very creative way to see dreams. So I think first establishing a more creative connection gets you out of that mindset of just like, I need to like, make myself better, and I need to like, do this right, and like stuff. And maybe not everyone has that mindset, but and maybe some people like could pivot into more of that kind of like mindset depends everyone's different, and that's the thing that, like a creative approach is developing your personal connection with this thing. It's not a way that you know a book is telling you how to do it. It's not the way that I could tell you how to do it. It's the way that you're allowing yourself to have a connection with your unconscious and like, what opens that up for you is going to be a really important development, rather than anyone telling you how to do that. That makes sense.
Kaisa 1:06:42
Well, I guess I could say, from my own life, some examples of how that can show up, like there can be, like, a very literal form of, for example, painting, drawing your unconscious symbols, which is like, in a way, giving a message to your unconscious that you are listening and you're willing to interact. And whenever, like athletes or artists are having some kind of peak or flow experience, it's often they are describing it as that something is moving through them, and it's this, this source, this sort of creativity and life force that we are interacting with. There's so many different kinds of ways that you can interact with the dream material, like you can take dream symbol that you associate with positive experiences or some kind of healing, like a symbol that resonates well with you, and you can place it in your body in like a meditative practice, you can place it in your body and allow it to grow there, because our consciousness is residing in our whole body, not just in our head. And this is to build your connection to your whole consciousness, in your whole embodied self. Other way I have been, what I have been doing a lot is to place myself in the place of another dream figure, to get another perspective of the dream and what's going on and what's what's the experience there to, like, expand The scope of my lived experience, like all of the dream figures are part of me, but I'm experiencing the one that is my dream ego. So what are all these other kind of experiences within me, outside of the dream ego and the habitual self? Each time you interact with the unconscious. It's like widening the pathway of communication, and so this inner source of guidance and wisdom and creativity starts being present in your more in your vacant life as well. So you end up becoming more grounded in yourself and with a stronger intuition and guidance your life overall, and like when you are in that kind of place that enables you to live your life in a spontaneous and creative way, not just bound to any habitual way of being.
Kristen 1:09:39
Yeah, and I was gonna say too, that even, like, even if you're not a creative person, that you don't do creative things like drawing or whatever, like, there's still as well, a creative way that you are thinking and interacting with the world. So like, kind of bringing in the headset. Her a bit here, like there's a way to think of your dreams and think of your life, like when I use the word theater or mythology, like it's a metaphorical understanding of things. So oftentimes, as well, our type structures have us in, again, very literal ways of relating with ourselves and other people. And so having that kind of unconscious channel and that relationship with your dreams is also and working more creatively with your dreams is to also just think different, like think more creatively and change narratives and or understand narratives differently in a way that is much more opening to your understanding of yourself and the world. What
Josh Lavine 1:10:51
do you say to people who don't remember their dreams or don't dream or aren't aware that they dream?
Kristen 1:11:00
Um, I mean, most people think they don't dream. I've heard a lot of people like jungians and other people that talk about dreams, analysts, stuff like that, that you do have dreams every night, because technically, like the unconscious is, is like a compensatory function. It does give balance to what you're experiencing in waking life, which is why it happens when you're sleeping that like people aren't just remembering them. So it's like a way that you know there are ways to develop a better relationship to remembering your dreams that we will definitely we would go over in class. I've talked about it before. It's on our podcast. But then, yeah, there are people that only remember a few dreams every week, couple of weeks. And yet, there are still ways that the unconscious is playing at like, it's still active, it's still alive, it's still doing things like in your day to day life. So we've specifically for the class, we've incorporated the other ways you could work with this kind of material and develop a creative relationship with your unconscious material that isn't just through dreams, like there are symptoms you experience during the day, not just body symptoms, but like your instincts are always creating symptoms, so some kind of neurotic obsession or anxiety or something like that. It could be what you're talking about in therapy or with other people all the time. It can be how the narratives that are constantly playing out in your head or in life like there are many different ways to kind of view this material creatively than just through dream. But I'm even a lot of the Oh, go ahead,
Kaisa 1:12:56
yeah, even Josh, when you said that there are tectonic plates moving under your feet. That's like a symbolic image that you can work with, like an experience.
Josh Lavine 1:13:07
So in terms of the class that you guys are going to teach, who's it for? And what do you hope they get out
Kristen 1:13:20
of it? I think it's for it's for anybody. You don't need to know anything about dream work. You don't have to know anything about the Jungian framework. We will be teaching. It's part like teaching, and it's part interactive, that it's going to be a much more personal and creative exploration, and that's the biggest thing is, I think that what I hope people get out of it, and what we put a lot of effort into designing it to be, is really creating that creative connection, no matter who you are, what you Know about dreams, what you know about the unconscious? However you live your life, whatever connection or lack of that you have with this kind of stuff, and if you even have a creative practice or not, it doesn't matter. It's all going to be like your personal connection with unconscious material and how to develop that creatively. Because I think that that is what's missing a lot in this kind of work. It's like, well, I don't know enough about dream work. I don't know enough about Jungian stuff. I don't know about the unconscious, but, like, this is a class to help start to develop that and kind of understand what the individuation process will feel like inside of you, and that how it could operate then in your your waking life, and what you're doing day to day, and kind of like loosening that grip that the the like Enneagram per. Personality structure has on you every day, and think of things differently,
Kaisa 1:15:05
and you don't have to be officially tight or know your type, like each instinct is present in dreams, no matter who you are or what's stacking. And each of us has each of each center so they are gonna show up in the dreams, regardless of what your type is.
Kristen 1:15:28
And that's why, too, like our the way that we're teaching it is sure. We will definitely talk about Enneagram and how it's going to relate to it, but a lot of it is kind of starting to bring into a more personal and creative framework that like that's why a lot of the class will be sharing and discussing and talking and asking questions and stuff like this. That can actually be like your connection with these symbols and your connection with unconscious material, regardless of type and regardless of that stuff. Like you're gonna work with that stuff, whether you know it's the self preservation instinct or not, it's gonna, it's gonna image itself in your in your psyche, like what images itself is, what is the most important thing being given to you at that moment?
Josh Lavine 1:16:26
Yeah, I, I'm really excited for this class, and I'm also excited for the length of it. It's a it's an eight week class, and it's, it's a relatively new topic for for a lot of people to like, to enter into a dream world and to develop a relationship with it. And, you know, I admit, I wondered, actually, if we should just offer a webinar on it, or something like that, or a shorter class. But more I sat with it, the more I realized that you'd need a longer class to actually engage with this and to, like, really kind of drop in and let this become a part of your conscious experience. And also to, like, some people are going to start the class not knowing that they dream, you know, or not being able to remember their dreams. And so there's like, the period of, like, developing a little bit more of a high resolution awareness of what's going on in your dream world. And then you guys have this way of, kind of making requests of your unconscious to kind of show itself in certain ways, or to show you things. And so I think there's going to be like that incubation period before things kind of actually open up into like the middle part of the class where the real, like content is going to come so I'm excited. I think, I think eight weeks is a great length of this, and I'm looking forward to people who get to experience it. Yeah,
Kaisa 1:17:46
I'm excited, too, me too.
Kristen 1:17:50
So excited. Yeah, and, and it'll be a much more like what I'm what I'm most excited for is that it's not just going to be like a lecture on information, like, straight from the, you know, Jung's book, or whatever like, it is much more of like here we'll give you ideas what we have, a framework, kind of set up of like, what different creative techniques and approaches that you know, we know about, that we've used, that are really helpful in understanding it, and then to really listen to how it's working in other people. Like, that's kind of what we did with our podcast, is like, Okay, here's like, a technique, here's a framework. Now, like, Let's experience it ourselves and come back and talk about it. Like, that's kind of what we want to provide for other people, is to be able to come and talk about their experience, to get different perspectives, to to have more of a community connection with these kinds of things. Because, you know, at least for us, like, I don't know how our listeners of our podcast experience their own journey while we do ours, but so like being here with other people in a class type of setting, it's more of like a workshop than it is class, like we're all experiencing these things together and getting to discuss and share about it.
Josh Lavine 1:19:11
Great. And you guys are actually my understanding is you're doing there will be some pre recorded lecture content, just to give general orientation of some of the ideas, but the class time is going to mostly be spent with personal sharing, yeah, dropping in, getting to know each other, hearing what everyone is dreaming about, and kind of getting into it with people.
Kristen 1:19:34
Yeah, yeah. That's why we chose to do the pre recorded videos. They're not like, hours long or anything. It's just kind of basic understandings of, like, mainly the analytical framework of ego versus the unconscious. So we know who are we even talking to in a dream? Like, what is what is happening? Why do we need to listen to that? Um, like, it's kind of just very basic stuff. And then, kind of, you know, similarly with instincts, why would they show up in a dream? What could they be challenging about what we know about them, like all that. So, just so it's a very, very like, easy understanding of the things that we would be discussing then in class. Great.
Josh Lavine 1:20:23
Well, thank you guys. Thanks for doing this. I'm very excited for this class to open and for people to join and learn from you guys. And I really think that what you guys have done in the last year and a half is really, I mean, it's at the front here. It's at the edge, you know, of like, what is currently being like, no one's doing this in the Enneagram world. And you guys have been so personal in your exploration of this. And, yeah, I mean, I think it's, I think you're really hitting pay dirt in some real ways. And so I'm excited to give people a space to learn from you guys. Any final words?
Kaisa 1:21:00
Yes, I'm very excited about this too. I'm looking forward to meeting all of you in class and our mutual learning experience about dreams and our inner world. So a very warm welcome to everyone interested.
Josh Lavine 1:21:20
Beautiful. Thank you. Okay, all right, thanks guys. Thank you so much for joining me for my conversation with Kristen and Kaiser from this insomnia podcast. If you'd like to check out their work, go check out this insomnia podcast. There will be a link in the description. I'll also link to their personal websites, and I will also put a link to their upcoming course, an eight week program on dreams and the Enneagram, which starts September 15 in the show notes. Would love to have you there, so please check that out. And there's also going to be a webinar coming up soon, date, undetermined. I think it's going to be September 1, but don't completely quote me on that. Check it's gonna be anyway, you'll be able to go and just ask them questions. Q, a, they'll give a little bit of a lecture about, like, dreams and what they discovered, and then you actually can ask them questions about the course. So that will be coming up in the next couple weeks. If you are watching this on YouTube, then please click the like and subscribe button. It is a low cost and very effective way to support me and my work in the school. And if you're listening to this as a podcast, then you can also leave up to a five star review. That kind of stuff really goes a long way. I really appreciate it. Please also check out our website at the Enneagram school.com and I recommend that you subscribe to our email list while you're there. When you subscribe to our email list, you get our free nine types and one page documents, and it's like a free guide. And more importantly, the email list is also where we send all of our announcements and updates. And if you want to get if you want to get emails about our most recent podcast episodes and upcoming courses and what we're discovering, then please subscribe. We'd love to have you as part of our community. And I am also looking for more people to interview. Specifically, I'm looking for practitioners of inner work that are really, really good with their particular modality of inner work, whether that be, for example, breath work or psychedelic or whatever, yoga, etc, someone who's really articulate about their modality better work and what it does. I'd love to hear from you, or if you know someone, then you can put me in touch. And if you think that you're a good candidate to be interviewed about your experience as your Enneagram type, then I'm also interested in hearing from you. I'd like to interview some more sixes, and I'm always looking for more people who are hexad types. So that's those are types, 12457, and eight. So please do reach out if you think that you will be good candidate. Preference will go to people who have been officially typed by the typing [email protected] quick plug for them. I think that they are the world's best Enneagram typers, and they have their own process of doing it. Go check out their [email protected] and that is it for me. Thanks for joining, and I'll see you in the next episode.
Unknown Speaker 1:24:06
You.
