John Luckovich 0:00
The sexual instinct represents a way of being interested in ourselves. It's a way of being kind of turned on by ourselves. And I don't mean like aroused turned on. I just mean like, activated turned on.
Alexandra Arroyo-Acevedo 0:12
It's like a trust that your own pleasure is important. And I don't just mean in the context of sex, but it's just like, it's a trust that like, that, like there is a purpose to your own pleasure. And I don't mean to get like, super spiritual, or like, religious or anything like that, but like, it is its own sacred thing, and it should be honored, and you deserve to be indulgent in that way. Welcome
Josh Lavine 0:33
to another episode of what it's like to be you. I am Josh Lavine, your host, and I'm very excited to welcome my friends, John lekovich and Alexandra Arroyo Acevedo to the show today, we are talking about their upcoming course that they're offering through the Enneagram school on the sexual instinct. It is on July 30. It's a four part course. So it's every it's it's going to be every week for two hours in the evenings, Eastern Time, except there's going to be one week in the middle, where you skip and you can check out the information at the Enneagram school.com John and Alexandra have been on the show before. They are co hosts on the big hormone Enneagram podcast, and also, John wrote a book called The instinctual drives in the Enneagram which is a seminal work on the topic. This conversation is all about what John and Alexandra are going to present in their class and what you can expect. And what you can expect if you sign up in terms of what practices you'll be invited into, etc. But before we do that, I want to set a little bit of context. If you're new to the Enneagram, you've probably understood the Enneagram as just a system of nine basic personality types. Really, it's a lot more complex than that. There's, first of all, lots of ways of subtyping within those nine types, and also the Enneagram deals with a whole dimension of the personality and psychology that is, the our instinctual drives. The instinctual drives are what we share with other mammals in the animal kingdom, and they are the drives to self, preserve the sexual drive and the social drive. The sexual drive is, in our view, widely misunderstood in the Enneagram world. It's often characterized as the one to one instinct, which we believe is actually a facet of the social drive. And so there's a lot of unpacking to do about what the sexual instinct really is, its biological and evolutionary origins and purpose, and how it manifests and functions in the human personality. In fact, the personality really is a sexual ornamentation. Something really important to understand about the instincts is that everyone has all three, but in a particular person, they tend to come in a stack of priority, meaning one instinct is dominant and one instinct is in your quote, unquote, blind spot. So because there are three possible slots, there are six possible stackings, which makes the instincts basically its own personality typology that's kind of orthogonal to the non Enneagram types. This is really important context for this conversation, if you're not familiar with it, because we talk about how people with different dominant instincts will relate to their sexual instincts. So for example, if you're self preservation, dominance, how your experience of and relationship with your sexuality is going to be different than if you're social dominant or sexual dominant. This conversation is all about the sexual instinct as distinct from the social instinct and the self preservation instinct. And we're going to talk about, how do you get in touch with your own sexual instinct. That's kind of what the class is all about. It's not about how do you have more sex, or how do you flirt better, or anything like that. It's like, how do you know your own sexual flavor, and how do you express that in a way that's true to you? And I'm personally really excited about this class. I don't think there's anything else like it in the Enneagram world, and it's there's just so much misunderstanding about the sexual instinct as well, like in the Enneagram world. But more broadly, society at large, there's so much dark, weird energy about sex. And we've seen, for example, I'm thinking of the metoo movement, what happens when people are not authentically in touch with themselves sexually, and are not able to act sexually in a way that is healthy and self honoring and other honoring. And what this class is is about how you do that, how you how you interact with your own sexual instinct in a way that doesn't even necessarily have to have an object as its focus. It's just your own relationship with yourself. How the sexual instinct helps you to renew interest in yourself, to be to kind of to feel yourself, you know, to feel good, to feel confident, to feel like you're just yeah, like to feel yourself. And I really can't think of people that I would trust more to teach this class than John and Alexandra. And one other thing to say is that John and Alexandra are recently engaged, and literally, I mean, like within the last couple weeks. So it just feels right to offer this course on the heels of that and with that energy. And also, it's summertime, so I'm really excited to present the sexual instinct course at the Enneagram school with John and Alexandra, and for you to learn from them through this conversation, see what it's about, and see if you're interested in joining. So without further ado, here are John and Alexandra. So let's just start with what was the inspiration for offering. This class.
John Luckovich 5:00
I think the main, the main inspiration, was that, in our view, majority of people are sexual blind, and that there is not a lot of places you can point to in a clear way if you're working on your sexual instinct, whether you're dominant, middle or blind, that are out there. And you know when you talk about developing your self preservation instinct, most people have some sense of what that would mean, whether it's be like healthier or taking care of yourself, or being more grounded, or being more responsible with whatever, something along those lines, talking about working on your social instinct, I think most people understand the value of emotional intelligence and learning to connect with yourself and others better, and, you know, developing yourself as a person. But when talk about developing sexual instinct, it's like, does that mean have more sex, or does that mean, get more obnoxious in somewhat Yes. Or, you know, is it, yeah? What is it? And I think that, you know, it's not only an interesting exploration, but I think that regardless of what our blind spot is. And I'm not sure I was trying to say this is just for people with sexual blind spot, but regardless of what our blind spot is, that missing element has an enormous cost on the goals of our dominant instinct. You know that if we're, if I'm, you know, speaking for myself as a social blind, my neglect of social has cost me significantly, not just in social but in self present, sexual and but you know, even if you're dominant sexual instinct, there again, that lack of sort of things to point to, of ways to kind of, it's like a it's like we're missing vocabulary in a certain way. And so I want to provide a way that people can explore sexual instincts, explore what it means for them, how it works in them, understand it cognitively very well, but also understanding, you know, in their own bodies and in a way that is not just about getting a partner, you know, it's about awakening something within yourself.
Josh Lavine 7:33
So John, as you were talking about how it's kind of obvious how to develop yourself from the point of view of the self pres instinct, like you go to the gym and you get fit, or you organize your finances, or you set up your house and you're abode in some kind of way that makes you more grounded, or whatever. There's kind of like self actualization through the self pres instinct tends to be the dominant lens of self actualization in our culture, and to a much lesser degree, the social instinct is also has a place in our culture in terms of, like being being a better leader, or being more emotionally intelligent and things like
John Luckovich 8:11
that, yeah, going to therapy, all that kind of stuff, right, right, right, right,
Josh Lavine 8:15
but what it means to sexually Self actualize is not really discussed in, at least broadly in our culture. And I think that a lot of people have just, first of all questions about what that actually is, and also a sense of, like, hidden resistances to it, like that feels narcissistic, or, what does it mean? Am I just gonna, like, you know, have a bunch of have a bunch of sexual partners now, is it so what? What does it actually mean to develop yourself sexually and what? Why would one choose to do that?
John Luckovich 8:51
Yeah, great question. Um, so, you know, first thing I want to just like, say, because we are speaking sort of in terms of this, like, you know, four part course, or whatever, that that topic, in and of itself, is like, too broad to fully cover and develop in all dimensions, right? Because it can be like, like, there's things about, things about, like, masculine and feminine. There's like, sort of weird little like, pseudo Tantra courses, and, you know, all these kind of ways that people will think about or, like, you know, self pleasure workshops and, you know, and that's not what we're going for, or anything like that. But from my point of view, the thing that I have noticed in working with people of all different stackings, in in my own self and whatever that the kind of inner dimension, or the, yeah, the part of self actualization, of sexual instinct that's not about just being like a better partner, or being more attractive, or, you know, whatever is, is a way that the sex. Instinct represents a kind of a way of being interested in ourselves. It's a way of being kind of turned on by ourselves. And I don't mean like aroused turned on. I just mean like activated turned on. And that when we are in touch with our sexual instinct, and you know, to be very clear, when we're in touch with it, regardless of stacking like, when we're actually having a living relationship with our sexual instinct, there's a way in which we are like, activated by our personhood, that we're turned on, that we're discovering things about ourselves, that we're like, you know that term like feeling ourselves? You know, I always compare it to like a musician or a painter, and part of the journey in a creative process is that you're interested in and excited by what you are going to if you're making music, like what you're going what sounds you're going to make, or if you're drawing or painting, what colors am I going to use? What images am I going to use? What's going to resonate with me in that way? And it's like it's a self interest that's not narcissistic. It's can become narcissistic, but it's sort of like it's, I want to know what's coming next in me, and that, I think, is like the inner part of development with sexual instinct.
Alexandra Arroyo-Acevedo 11:14
Yeah, to me, it also feels like a very primal and base self expression, you know. And in a conversation that we had not too long ago, we were just discussing the sexual instinct as one of the most important things about it is to cultivate the sense of self renewal so that you're not stagnating. And granted, there are ways to do that with self pres and there are ways to do that with social but I think myself as a sexual blind like finding ways to constantly be shedding what no longer is vital for me in order to make space for what is like, fresh and oncoming and new. Like, that's what relates that's what that's how we can relate it to the artist, thing that John was talking about like, what is the the like? The like, almost like an astrology with like, your rising sign. What is the rising thing about you that you want to be expressing. You know, what is the rising thing about you? At all?
John Luckovich 12:06
You're making something arise. Shut up. Okay, I had to,
Alexandra Arroyo-Acevedo 12:15
I'll say this also one thing that, as a sexual, blind I have been more aware of just as time goes on, and I'm more familiar with the instincts and the Enneagram. And just like my experience here is like a person on the planet, is another value point within sexual instinct is that it has been able to help me find myself outside of my sort of like self pres, what can I do my physical body, you know, or like, outside of the social roles of friend and partner and sister and, you know, this kind of stuff, like the I can, I know the value that I bring as a as a social object and as a self press object. But there's a certain way that there's, like, the sexual part of myself has been, has been not as clear, you know? And not only has it not been as clear, but it's also I didn't really know why I should try to develop that, you know? Why should I develop, like a self interest? Why should I want to know what like a particular flavor I have? And there's a lot of answers to that. One is because I have become more interested in myself, and that's not from a vain perspective, or it's not from like be. It's not from being. It's not, how do I say it? It's not from a selfish place either. But it's like the questions are, am I enjoying myself, like, am I responding to the things that I that I want and that that have nothing to do with, like, my relationships with other people in a certain way, like my social role in society, whether something is responsible or not, it's just about like, what is, what is going to get me, what is going to make me excited about the next day with this person, with my own life, with myself? You know, there's a kind of inner fuel that just keeps you kind of excited to be alive, that I think also belongs to the social instinct, or, I'm sorry, to the sexual instinct, is bias there. Yeah,
Josh Lavine 14:10
that's a really important thing you just said, and I'm relating to it also myself. Like, it's like, when I, when I first started dating my girlfriend, when we weren't, when we weren't, like, officially, like, we weren't, like, official yet, you know, there was, there was a lot of, there was this dynamic where she's a self press type and like, there was this dynamic where, where, where her self pres needs weren't getting met. She wasn't really she was kind of closed in herself and, like, not available for the kind of social connection that I was kind of craving. And as a social attachment type, I kind of that would put me into a reactive headspace where I'd be trying to, like, get her to connect with me socially, and that as a way to like. Consciously spark some kind of chemistry, like I thought chemistry would be that was the way to do it, like, like, look each other in the eye and create the emotional connection, and whatever just wasn't available for it, you know. And then when she wasn't there, I felt like my needs weren't, weren't getting met as a social type. And then that created this whole like, loop, you know, yeah, and she felt missed because she was hungry and I wasn't, like, helping her work through that, you know, it's like trying to, like, trying to, like, have a conversation with her. So, like, a piece of advice that John gave me that was really helpful was basically just like, you know, next time you're hanging out and you're in that state, just like, kind of go back inside yourself and then just start, like, entertaining yourself. Just, you know, just entertain yourself, like, just disconnect in a set. Not like disconnect whatever, like push her away or whatever, but just be like, right, right. Just come back to yourself and just like, remember what you find funny or amusing or whatever, about her, about this moment, about some thing you're looking at. And what ended up happening was we were like walking through this village. We were like, staying in Airbnb. So we were like walking through, kind of like, just window shopping and stuff like that. And I started just getting interested in stuff that was in the windows, going to going into the shops, and just turning into the kind of like accessing, like an unselfconscious, almost like clownish state, yeah, I was just, like, I was just being a clown, you know, being, yeah, and just making myself laugh, you know? And it actually, it completely decalcified the whole dynamic that we were in. It just really introduced this whole different energy where I was, like, throwing my own party, and she was like feeling, she got magnetized by that. And then all of a sudden, all of a sudden, we had like chemistry. We had like a sexual dynamic going on, you know. And that was, like, that was, like, a pretty big eye opening experience for me, you know, like, Oh, this is, that was a whole mode of being that I didn't, I wouldn't have access, I wouldn't have tried that, if it weren't for John's like, advice. And that was, like, awakening my sexual instinct and kind of renewing interest in myself as a way to revive the dynamic, you know,
Alexandra Arroyo-Acevedo 17:01
totally Yeah. I mean, I relate to a lot where the same stacking, very similar, Typologically also. So yeah, I totally relate to that. There have been so many times that I'm just, especially being a social dominant, that I'm just putting sexual, like, down there. And I'm like, no, no, it's not fun. It's serious. Like, be serious with me, look me in the eyes, that kind of stuff. And then I have to as exactly, as you said, kind of disconnect. Find my own source of like interest, and then the it's just like the state of the the energetic state changes, I'm in a pleasurable place, and so I can pull John into a pleasurable place. But even so, like with John as a sexual type, the distortion that can comes from being sexual dominant is that it can get very serious. Can get very serious, you know, it can get, like, there's a fixation around it and stuff like that. So there are ways that even he needs to go back to, like, his own experience of the sexual instinct in order for us to balance it out together.
John Luckovich 17:54
But, yeah, one of the, I mean, like, you know, Alexander, you know, I'm a stay at home cat father. And so Alexander comes home from work and and, you know, I start messing with her, just immediately and like, kind of, you know, like, like, when she was coming home, she, she like, was sneezing, like, in the hallway. And so then she walks and I just immediately, like, start to, kind of making fun of her. And then I like, start messing with her clothes and her, you know, all stuff. And stuff. And I'm like, to, you know, it's just like, I'm like, entertaining myself, but it's like, I'm like, just, you know, she's, I'm not doing anything that's like violating her or making her upset or anything, but like, I'm just kind of like ruffling her feathers in a way that's like, amusing to me. And I'm just like, kind of getting, you know, getting whatever on it. And it's like, and then it creates this dynamic between the two of us. It's like, fun we're playing. And then she goes after me, yeah, like, you know, I start, you know, reaching my hands in places. And then she starts reaching her, you know. And it's just like, it's like, a whole, it's a whole thing. And so, yeah, that like, idea of, what am I like? What am I finding enjoyment or pleasure in, in this moment? And just like, kind of being focused on that, rather than like, are we? Are we good? You know, it's like, how is our connection, you know? And just that'll often break like, that'll there's a there's a way that will one, one of us will do that to other, and it just kind of breaks whatever. Like just anytime tension get things get frozen up or something, or get, like a little whatever, we just the spark. We just hit that buzzard. Yeah,
Josh Lavine 19:40
yeah, yeah, yeah. Well,
Alexandra Arroyo-Acevedo 19:43
to riff off of that, or maybe this is just a separate topic, there's so Bucha was reading not too long ago on astrology, and one of the placements was like the fifth house. And the Fifth house is associated with, like, pleasure and sex, and, you know, romance, you know all. These kind of pleasurable states. But the describe, remember, the description in the book was described that particular house as the reason it's okay. It said, The reason pleasure is important is because it takes you to tomorrow. It it gives you a reason to want to keep going, not to get, like, super fatalistic or anything like that. But like it just it gives you a reason to be excited, to want to be here. And it's not in a goal orientation, kind of like three ish way. It's not in a like discomfort, escapism that can come with, like seven or nine. It's genuinely like I'm enjoying something, and I want to be in that enjoyment, whether that's myself, creative project. I'm involved with a partner. It's just your source of it's your source of pleasure. And there are, I think, like societally, especially in the US, but maybe everywhere. Societally, focusing on that can be really shamed. It can be called frivolous. It can be called irresponsible. It can be, you know, this kind of like, pull yourself up by your bootstraps. Don't have fun. You have responsibilities and things to do, okay, but then you've spent your whole life like amassing responsibility, and I don't know, goals and whatever it is you're trying to do without having enjoyed your life at all.
Josh Lavine 21:19
Mm, hmm, yeah, yeah. This is, like, something you guys have talked about before, is how the sexual instinct is. It's a source of play and fun and lightness. And I think that people tend to be like drawn by the by the mystery and the intensity of the sex, of sexual energy, but also afraid of it. And, you know, it's, it's, it's intense energy, it's chaotic. It can be messy. And to use, you know, like some of David Gray stuff, like this, like social and self pres are much more stable energies. You know, sexual energy is, is what decalcifies things. It's like, fire and water, you know? It's, it's, it's, it's, um, yeah, and so, like, we talked about, like, polarities and tensions, and how those can be, like, for me as a sexual, blind type, I've been sort of mystified by these terms. Like, what does it mean to occupy a pole or to have it, or to have to have a polarity with someone as a social type and a triple attachment type? I find myself often smoothing differences, you know, as a reflex, or, like, finding finding commonality, and like, Oh, you're like this, I'm like this too, or whatever, and having a lens to actually, like, occupy I'm over here, you're over there. And there's this creative tension between the two of us and an interplay that creates a kind of renewable chemistry between us that doesn't just diffuse into a homogenous connection. That's like, part of the sexual instinct, and it's also part of what is scary about the sexual instinct, because it is highlighting distance, you know, between us. And you know, Tension. Tension between those things invites either attraction or repulsion, you know. And so there's also in that there's the threat of repulsion, like, if I, if I, if I consolidate myself and I occupy this pole, then maybe I repel this person, which is very Yeah, that's anyway, so there's all, there's all this, like, scary stuff, you know, involved in the sexual instinct. And so I know part of your intention with this class is, like, to make it fun, to be to be able to approach polarities intention in a way that feels non threatening, and just Yeah. So maybe you can talk a little bit about that,
John Luckovich 23:39
yeah. You know, with in my, from my point of view, part of what is, there's so many scary things about the sexual instinct. For one thing, you can't choose who you're attracted to, right? And you can't make somebody be attracted to you. It has its own logic. It has its own you know, even intelligence, you know, intelligence. And some people like, you know, fall out of attraction, and you can't really choose that. But also, you know, there's this play and pleasure piece, but then there's also pieces like, it is very serious, you know, and it's, it's sort of a contradiction, I think, to some, in some people's experience, where it's like, sacred and profane at the same time, you know, Dave, David, you know, puts the representing the instincts with elements, and puts fire and water as the sexual, because it's got this mercurial it's both and in a certain way. And so sometimes, culturally, like, also, yeah, I when people started coming to me with a lot of like sexual issues, I started following and looking up like, you know, all kinds of like sex experts and sex therapists and all their, you know, and social media and stuff like this, and reading books and, you know, there is kind of like. Like a sex sexuality, and sexual instinct is just like, for your pleasure. It's just for fun, and like, you know, just make sure that you're playing safe, kind of, it's got this kind of reductive, functional quality. And yet, if you've had, like, a really special sexual experience, it, you know, with a partner or some, something just transformative in yourself. It takes you to a very like another place in yourself, a very like a special place, in very sacred place. But, yeah, back to your talk about the the fear. Yeah, it's like, it is like a, it's a leaning back into and kind of like trying to trust in your own energy and your own separateness, and feeling your own energy, in your separateness from your partner, like Alexander can speak on it more, but she, she often brings up this Esther Perel, example of intimacy versus attraction, eroticism. And now eroticism requires distance, and so part of what can be difficult about the sexual instinct is there's a certain breaking away from a either a structure or a pattern or a dynamic doesn't mean actually leaving it, but there's certain standing in your own self, and if you're not in touch with your sexual instinct, it's harder to do that in a way that feels embodied and empowered, because you're like, you're not feeling yourself. So why would you stand in yourself? So that is, like, a big risk for the personality, risk for the ego. So yeah, that's just, I mean, I could just go on and on, but
Alexandra Arroyo-Acevedo 26:42
I'll, yeah, well, just to even go off of that, and this is not very long, but even just if you're not standing in your own pole, for example, like if you're not standing in your own sexuality. And we'll say that within the context of, like, the sexual instinct, your own, in your selfness, feeling your selfness, you actually can't be a part of a pole, you know. And I don't mean there is a way that we're all kind of subconsciously doing things, but like, if you cannot be in yourself, how can you be responsive, you know, to another person like and so, or to another thing, you know, to another like interest or something like that. So part of what we want to talk about, going back to the fear, part of it is, is how to recognize your own your own self interest, your own flavor, and then to recognize how to be responsive to, you know, flavors or excitations outside of yourself. Because, like, as a sexual blind, like, it's really never not going to feel scary to me. It's never going to not feel destabilizing. So the idea of trying to approach it in a way that seems non threatening in a certain way actually goes against the essence of the sexual instinct. Well,
John Luckovich 27:51
I'll say that there's a way in which I think somebody you can experience like the charge of the sexual instinct as something threatening and scary, but you can experience that as just bad and threatening and scary, or that kind of charge is having as having potential is having like you can be friendly with the fear or friendly with the charge. And you know, part of what the sexual like, somebody who's a sexual type is doing unconsciously, is they are over trusting in that, like, kind of whatever disruption, you know, they're saying, like, oh, the disruption is always fecund, right? And part of being sexual blind is, like, I It's hard for me to see how this, this, this, this disruption, can turn out well, you know, it can it. How can actually be life giving because it's breaking something? Yeah. What are you smiling about
Josh Lavine 28:57
the word fecund? Yeah. We talk about that word for a second. Yeah,
Alexandra Arroyo-Acevedo 29:05
that's a David Gray favorite. It is that makes
Josh Lavine 29:08
that makes sense. Yeah, that makes sense. Oh, yeah, he would love that word. It's kind of gross. That's kind of a gross word. It's
John Luckovich 29:13
all gross. One of the things that's scary about getting in touch with a sexual instinct is not, and this could be true for sexual dominance as well. Is not. How do I put this? It's not because the sexual instinct is scary and I'm learning to have a relationship with it. It's that we might see that the way that we've organized our lives, without the sexual instinct or being led by the sexual instinct in an unintegrated way, like the way that we've set up our lives. We've done it in a way that has somehow strangled some of our life force. Like that there might be a way that we have to like we if, like a lot of people, are afraid of getting in touch with their sexual instinct because they might recognize. Is, oh, maybe I'm not attracted to my partner. Or, you know, we've had people who are very like sexually promiscuous, say I don't want to get in touch with my sexual instinct, because I might learn that I'm not attracted to the people I'm sleeping with. And I I want that option. I want, I want the I want to be able to do that, yeah, you know, people will learn like, Oh, I'm like, the play like, even like, the city I live in is not doing it for me, you know. Or the career I've chosen is one that is not, doesn't, doesn't leave room for me to explore this or incorporate it into just my day to day. So there's a lot of, like, compartmentalizations. And even somebody who's sexual dominant might go, Oh, I've just been like, you know, our object relations, co OPT, all of our instinctual drives. And I don't just mean the, you know, frustration, attachment, rejection, I mean just like the pattern relationships we've had from early in life. And so often, what sexual types will do is they will think that they are being new and creative and vivifying and shedding, shedding the skin of the serpent skin, snake skin or whatever, and when really they're just replaying the same old bullshit patterns of their early life in new relationships. And so it's like, even if you're sexual dominant, doesn't mean like, it's, it can be totally just as skewed as somebody sexual blind. It could be totally repetitive and totally frozen in the same way. So yeah, that's a big part of it. Is like, maybe it's, maybe I'm actually fine in a certain way with my sexual instincts, but then it's like, but all the things it's going to impact if I recognize how offline it's been and what it would mean if I turn it on,
Josh Lavine 31:48
yeah, I have one other topic I want to bring up, which is how and you guys have explored this on on B, H, E, for listeners who don't know What that is, the big hormone Enneagram podcast, but it's the the way that the different instinctual stackings Like approach and experience sex, where, for example, like, if like, let's say you're self press, type, and we're talking about the sexual instincts. You might have an unconscious assumption that we're talking about just like the physical act of sex in an orgasm, you know. And like a lot of self press types, like the the sexual appetite and what it means to and just like the physical sensations of sex, and, yeah, like the goal of the orgasm and stuff like that. That's kind of like a way that I've seen some self press types approach sex, or social types approaching sex as a way to feel more emotionally connected.
Alexandra Arroyo-Acevedo 32:48
Sure, yeah. I mean, that's something I have energy around distilling or not distilling, but making distinctions. I forgot the word in during the course, because, yeah, I think there are a lot of obviously mistyping is like a rampant thing. It's sexual to be to type yourself as a sexual type. Of course, seems like the most appealing thing, just because it often gets, it often gets described as being like the most passionate or the most intense or the most creative or the most like romantic, you know, stuff like that. And these are, sure, maybe sometimes, but often, you know, there's a lot of times where it's not so. One of the things that I want to do in the course and that John and I are going to be doing, is pulling apart the differences between, like, what is, what is social versus what is sexual. Because a lot of like, you know, popularly, the sexual instinct is described as the one on the one to one instinct, which is social instinct. You know, that's not a sexual thing. It's that's intimacy. Is a social thing, wanting to know somebody very deeply, wanting to be engaged in, like, a like, yeah, just a very intimate conversation. That's social stuff. Those are social charges and social activations versus, yeah, the self prize element, oh, and even another thing with the social type, because you mentioned the way that that can be confused, another way that sexual can kind of be co opted by social is people can use, like promiscuity or player or something like that as a social symbol, you know, right, yeah, right, right, as a social signifier that's not a sexual thing at all. You can have, you can be a person that is promiscuous, but use it as, just like a social object, as a social ornament for yourself without actually being engaged in any kind of, in anything that's really pulling at you. And then again, for the self pres, yeah, the physical kind of sensual aspects of the physical on physical experience can also often be confused for, for the sexual instinct, sensual, I do believe, belongs a lot to the self pres instinct, or to just the body. Center or something like that. Sensuality, I think, is more of a body thing, whereas sexuality is its own specific thing. You can be a sensual person without being a sexual person. You can be connected to your sense of sensuality without while still holding sexuality at bay.
John Luckovich 35:15
And it's even like people will approach their sexual experiences from a lens of what is normal for somebody my age or my Yes, social group, like, All right, I've had like like, so, you know, I'm having sexual experiences so I can, you know, maybe prove to myself that I am a desirable person, or I do these kinds of sexual acts because this is what, you know, like, you know, oh, I've, I've tried, I don't know, like, threesome or, you know, something like, like, it's, it's kind of like, oh, this is my resume for how I'm daring, you know, in this way. Like, that's how I'll see people hold it. And then, like, man, like, you know, there's nothing against polyamory, but like, like polyamory influencers on social media are, like, the most social, sexual, blind, like thing I've ever seen, because It's so much of it's so inhabiting labels and relationship agreements and and, and how you de escalate a breakup when your partner has a break. You know, it's like these kind of things that is like, it's just so there's, there's a distancing thing that we have from the loss of self aspect that a really alive. Sexual experience brings us into which to your to something you said earlier about, you know, the heart is like, I think all three instincts need to be present. And, you know, the the physical, sensual part needs to be there, the connected part needs to be there, and the chemistry needs to be there. And, you know, we've been, we talked, you know, we started talking about people who are, who are sexual blind and like, what that's like, of just, there's no spark, or it's just like a, I don't know, mechanical act or something. But you know, like speaking as a social blind, there's no social instinct there. It becomes a performance to be, to be, like, trying to get your partner to desire you, you know, to just like, it's, it's like, not, it's not an either, you know, unless the all three instincts are in there. Yeah, let's,
Josh Lavine 37:30
let's talk more about the heart and the heart's relationship with the instincts. And you know, one thing that is, you Yeah, one thing that I find, really, just like, endlessly fascinating is, and this we talked about, this is sort of related to the social distinction, or the social confusion with the sexual instinct. But how people have, like, people can have an image of what sexuality is versus, and that is like totally far apart from their actual felt sense experience of it. And a lot of people enter and a flirtation all the way to an actual sexual encounter and experience from a performing place, you know, with themselves, not actually present in it. And so, what does it mean to actually have sex or to be sexual as oneself and as a sexual, blind, social, dominant three, I would say this is, this has been like a kind of a lifelong struggle for me. Just what does it mean? How do I do that? You know, how do I actually be myself, not just be performing like I need, for example, I need to make sure that, like, I'm doing a good job and, like, getting my partner to orgasm or, and that's like, the whole focus. Or, how do I and actually another point you set, like, around the sexual instinct, loss of self. It's like, if you're if you're controlling the sexual experience, or if you're approaching it from a social place, or if you aren't really in it, you actually can't lose yourself. It's kind of interesting, like you have to actually be there so that you can lose yourself, you
John Luckovich 39:09
know. And what I was gonna say before you brought that point up, was, yeah, to be yourself, you need to lose yourself.
Josh Lavine 39:17
Kind of a security there, too. Yeah, exactly
John Luckovich 39:19
paradox, but it's it. You know, the the way to, like, lose yourself has to do with a certain amount of, basically, trust. And I don't mean safety, trust, like that's part of it, but often, I think that part gets emphasized, like, a lot, right? Like that we're, like, consenting, and then we're doing this together. And, you know, that's very important, but, and, yeah, like, also, like, like, again, I just, I have in my head when I explored all these different, like, sex therapists and stuff like, that's like, what they'd emphasize, and it was, it was often, probably through the lens of their instinctual bias. And, you know. Someone's like, it's all about intimacy and connection and being really connected to your partner. And I was like, I don't think that, you know? So, yeah, there's, there's a certain way of trusting your partner, but trusting the energy between the two of you, you know, it's like, I can trust Alexandra, but it's she can trust me, but we're when we're like, just, it is, like, this third force enters, you know, and we're just obeying it. And, yeah, it's really has its own life that we're trusting it, and we're kind of both getting out of our our analysis about it,
Alexandra Arroyo-Acevedo 40:42
yeah, this also goes back to what I said earlier, about, like, you just have to be so in your own experience and your own connection to, I don't know, the pleasure that you're seeking or experiencing already. So there is, yeah, there's, I mean, there's a trust that happens externally. But like, I think from a sexual blind perspective, it's like a trust that your own pleasure is important. And I don't just mean in the context of sex, but it's just like, it's a trust that, like that, like there is a purpose to your own pleasure. And I don't mean to get like, super spiritual, or like, religious or anything like that. But, like, it is its own sacred thing, and it should be honored, and you deserve to be indulgent in that way, you know. And that is the way, like the in Ness, with your own sexual instinct, is the only is also the only way you're going to get it, you know. It's the only way you're going to be receptive or giving in that way,
John Luckovich 41:43
and and even in the like, like, what I was saying about partner is, like, even in the sexual act, like, like, I trust in my enjoyment of Alexandra, you know, and like and I like, and then I can tell, like, you know, hope and when it when things are good. I can tell you know, she's enjoying me. And so it's like we're still in ourselves enjoying ourselves, but we're in ourselves enjoying ourselves and enjoying each other. You know, I'm saying like, there are these other layers to it, where it's like we're just in we're embodying that we're enjoying each other. So there's like, this, this mutual trust and build, you know? And it's like, yeah, does that make sense?
Josh Lavine 42:28
Yeah, not to be too whatever detail about something. But I like, I remember I had a kind of epiphany once a couple years ago, where I think it was around the time that I started, like, really exploring my relationship with a sexual instinct via this material that we were kind of exploring as a group. And I, like, there was a period, especially, like after my last relationship, where I was, like, just really, just not hooking up at all, you know, and then, and then I would have these, like I would occasionally get involved with someone, and my experience of myself sexually was like I was sort of finding myself, like surrendering to a different kind of animal energy where I was like, there was like, this loop that sort of got like connected between me and my sexual partner, where it was like, I surrendered to my own just enjoyment of her, and then what I could, what I what I intuited or like, what I started noticing was that she was like noticing that I was just surrendered into that enjoyment. And so it was like turning her on, that I was just unself consciously enjoying her in it, you know what I mean? And then that kind of activated a sense of like, and now she's enjoying me, and then her her unselfconscious enjoyment at me was turning me on, but, and that was, like, this virtuous cycle now, and it's totally different. It's a totally different dimension than like, I'm gonna get you off and you're gonna get me off, and now we're like, we had sex,
Alexandra Arroyo-Acevedo 44:17
right? Yeah,
John Luckovich 44:20
exactly, yeah, exactly. You can't really, like, it's, it can be hard to drop into what I'm really enjoying if I'm not, like, trusting and knowing, like, my own place of enjoyment in myself. And I think, you know, you know, I'm saying, like, people can understand the like, like, the getting off part of a sexual experience, but then, but like, the actual, like, the part that, like, you know you'll that you'll really come away with, that you really feel involved in, is this certain other kind of, like, what we're calling enjoyment, and that part of. US is something that we need to, like, actually spend time developing our relationship with. But yeah, it's like, I need to, I need to make room for that. I need to know that place in myself. And so that's like, that kind of, that piece, I think, is what a lot of our a lot of this, like this, this class, will be about, is like trying to just cultivate that as a foundation for anything else, because it's like, I kind of, I consider, for example, um, my finding the Enneagram, or my finding the finding Egypt, kind of sexual instinct experience that has nothing to do with a partner, but it's just like, I'm not going to be chant, I'm not going to be the same on the other side of this thing, like I'm going to lose something of myself, yeah, you know, like this is like, this is going to blow open doors that I can't shut again. And I think that when you enter like a relationship like that, or experience like that, or anything, there's a sense of, I'm going to be different. On the other side of this, I'm going to be reconstituted or revised. And I think that, especially, you know, we're talking sexual blind won't trust that that will seem destabilizing, and sometimes sexual dominant can be self destructive. And think it's that same thing. Does that make sense? Can
Josh Lavine 46:16
you talk a little bit about like, like, one of the basic polarities of the sexual instinct, masculinity and femininity, and just how you think about that and how that lives in you.
John Luckovich 46:30
Yeah, for sure. Um, do you want to go, baby?
Alexandra Arroyo-Acevedo 46:33
I didn't do think about it honestly. I don't have it something just like loaded up and ready to go.
John Luckovich 46:38
Well, I'll say that I I've worked individually with people who are queer and who are trans, and so I think that there is a masculine feminine polarity, but it doesn't necessarily accord with gender and bodies and all those things. So just want to make that caveat or whatever. But you know, there's sort of archetypes, and most of our way we experience these archetypes is through these cultural overlays and images rather than direct inner experiences. And I can't really like point to like, Oh, this is what the inner experience feels like, of masculinity, femininity, but I think that there are, ways of holding attention, ways of holding boundaries, ways of relinquishing them that roughly correspond to two ways that we like, the ways that we connect to something archetypal in ourselves, and something that we locate these for lack of better term, energetic expressions within ourselves, through and so, you know, there are like, like, I can I, I consider myself pretty like, I'm more at home with masculine but I definitely feel myself accessing what I would consider feminine energy on the regular. And so it's sort of like one of the things I've noticed in people with a strong sexual instinct, like I think of Prince, for example, is he can play with a lot on a polarity, in His image, in his behavior, in his movement, in his music, and he's not stuck on one pole or the other. So it's not about like, all right now be a very masculine man or be a very feminine woman. But there's a there's a way that I'm related to myself Where this, these, these charges, can be held. And with, you know, with my partner, Alexander, like I can hold some end of a polarity. I'm not even like sort of labeling it mentally of what end I'm holding, but our in tunement with each other and our natural chemistry means she can go to the other end of to the other end of that polarity in a way that's like an equal but opposite charge, and we can, just like, meet each other and flip polarity multiple times over, and it's mercurial. You know, it's that thing. So, like, I don't know if I'm really answering your question really clearly, but to kind of lay at that territory, because we do talk about polarity, but it's like a it's always dynamic, and it is below the level of like our cognition, even though we can retroactively try to like, kind of map what's going on. But it like, when I work with people with a sexual instinct, it's about kind of what we're saying earlier, about, oh, this might change me, and I am. I'm fearful of that versus I see promise in that possibility of changing myself. It's kind of like that where it's like, you know, am I containing a certain either political like, like, whole cling to one end of a. Pull or downplaying polarity in myself because I'm afraid of the destabilizing factor that will cause my own psyche, or am I allowing myself to to play and flirt and follow it in a way that's like the energy is alive? Does
Josh Lavine 50:18
that make sense? I'll add one thing about this, I think that this, these terms masculinity and femininity are, are very socially charged as well, you know, and to define them feels threatening. It's like, it's like, oh my god, am I going to be pro you know, am I being, you know, masculine is this, and feminine is this, and somebody's gonna get mad at me for whatever I say. But there is this way that, like, we have these kind of cultural archetypes of what these are, whether they're accurate or not, there's like or true in an objective, spiritual, soulful sense, or whatever. And I can certainly say for myself that I I tried to conform for a very long time to a more masculine archetype in a way that I think was inauthentic to me. Or, you know, I could, I could feel myself kind of holding myself a little bit more kind of rigidly as a way like because I thought that's what a man is supposed to, do you know, right, right? And as I've gotten more in touch, just more mature, first of all, as a person, and more in touch with my sexual instinct, I realize that there's a lot more fluidity in me, and there's a lot more what's the way to put it? Kind of softness and receptivity in me, which I would have traditionally characterized as feminine qualities. And again, I hope no one gets mad at me, but whatever, there's this like that's in me. And actually, what I found is that the more I've been able to like be with that energy and kind of integrate it, the whatever my true masculine self has also exactly like, exactly Come, come, come to life, and it's it's less fixated, it's less trying to be something, you know, it's more just relaxed. So they kind of like mutually internally support and take care of each other, like, the more my inner feminine is developed, the more my inner masculine is developed. And then they kind of create the space to counterbalance each other inside and then to what you're speaking to, like in a in a flotation or a sexual dynamic or whatever, because they're both alive in me, I can, kind of, I can, I can fluidly go between each pole, and it's, again, I'm still sexual blind. It's not like, the most natural thing in the world for me, but I just, I trust that that's there, you know, yeah. And I'm not, like, embarrassed in a sexual encounter if, like, all of a sudden, like, my sudden, like, my partner wants to take a dominant role for a minute. You know, it's like, that's like, what I'm saying totally, it was, like, flip flopping and stuff like that. And so, yeah,
John Luckovich 52:51
yeah, no, totally, and, and, you know, I mean, I've been kind of fascinated with, well, I mean, you're, you're, you're speaking, you're speaking to a lot of things, but one of the things that it evokes for me is like, you know, Carl Jung, anima, animus, dynamics, yeah, and like that. You know that, that there's a polarity in terms of your soul and the the union of opposites is like, the the sacred work, right? And, you know, I growing up, especially as a male for like, you know, a straight male for like, where I have all these like feelings and things and like, the arc the male, the archetypes of maleness in our culture are like, you know, and I know I'm jumping all over the place, but it's just bringing up like and archetypes of maleness, and then like just inherent misogyny. I think it's all kind of related, where it's like, you know, when, when, just to take male energy, for example, when, when male energy does not have a a a love respect and place and reverence for feminine energy internally. You know, you see feminine energy as weak and functional and empty, and those like super masculine, like military operator kind of guys are, like, trying to impress other men, to get validation for their masculinity, because it's not felt within. So it's like this empty parody of masculine energy, right? And so anyway, just like there's so many implications where you know, then it's like the feminine energy is itself not enjoyed, other than a thing to, like, have my babies and get me off. And so there's no that place of like enjoyment that we were speaking to earlier. It almost doesn't exist because they're not enjoying themselves and all that fucking like black rifle coffee and, you know, AR fifteens or whatever. And it's like, it's just, there's just, like a lifelessness. And so part of, part of in like. Getting comfortable with these, like, I'm not speaking these polarities necessarily, but like the sexual instinct, it does bring, like, water and life and fecundity and greening to things in a certain way. Does that make sense? Yeah, yeah.
Josh Lavine 55:16
Alexander, I have a question for you. I wonder if you have any kind of social self, press opinions about the the the way that you've experienced men embodying a kind of farcical masculinity, or when not being in touch with themselves sexually, and how that, what the impact on you as a woman
Alexandra Arroyo-Acevedo 55:39
of that? Yeah, sure, sure. Yeah. I mean to bring it back to something John said as like, I don't know just, I don't know the word to use, so I'll just say it that we were talking about polarity. The most obvious display of polarity would be with the masculine feminine and the masculine and feminine poles, but that those don't necessarily correspond to like biological sex or like the gender. You know, those are going to exist however they exist, but they can exist wherever, from whoever whatever. But yeah, as a person, as a person that is identified as female and as femininity. One of the ways that I have, like responded to that kind of hyper masculinity that feels, to me, feels afraid of femininity, is that it doesn't feel it doesn't actually feel like an honest pole. It doesn't feel it feels dangerous. It feels unsafe and not dangerous and unsafe in the way that, like sexual is kind of scary sometimes, but it feels like, like I'm not going to be received or protected or held or there's no this person this like, you know, example, person has no experience with their own feminine energy within themselves. So how are they going to know how to respond to it from me? How are they even going to know how to recognize it in myself, you know? And like as a person that identifies as feminine too, I do think I'm comfortable with like more masculine sides, and I knew how to like access those. And that's like, how I'm able to recognize that on an external level, you know. So that would be my experience with that. Something else I wanted to say too is that, as far as the polls go, I think social self press, the stacking would be most likely to take those, take those two poles and see themselves as like assigned to one of those poles as either feminine or masculine, or when really it's, it's, as you said earlier, it is more of a fluid motion, and the polarity will exist as polar to wherever you are, you know, that's part of like, the fluidity of the sexual instinct. If I happen to be kind of embracing more of a masculine energy, the thing that will be polar to me is something more feminine, or if I'm, you know, and these are obviously just the words to use, because they're very it's just easy language to use. But if I'm more in tune with my femininity, the pole on the opposite end will be something more masculine, you know, and and the reason for that pole is to create this kind of is to create this tension and in a way that creates excitement. Polarity is exciting, you know? It does create something and that's very different than the like, the harmony that comes from the social instinct. And of course, I'm a nine, so I'm going to use the word harmony. But social is comfortable and intimate and safe and familiar, and it's trying to, you know, it in a certain way. It's trying to, like, respect your boundaries. And this is all nine language, but just like hold you, keep you comfortable and all that kind of stuff, there's a sexual instinct is trying to be disruptive. It is trying to cause something that that wakes you up to your own Eunice in order to respond to an otherness. Does that make sense? Beautifully said,
Josh Lavine 58:58
Yeah, I'm wondering. So Alexandra has a sexual blind like, what it's meant to you to get in touch with your sexual instinct and how you know when it's you're in touch with it? And basically the same question in reverse for you John, like, as a sexual dominant type, how do you know when you're actually in balance with your sexual instinct versus when you're doing your fixated thing and and how do you track the difference, or what? How do you experience
Alexandra Arroyo-Acevedo 59:26
it? Hmm. I mean, this is both an easy question and a hard question, which feels appropriate for the sexual instinct. And actually the easiest way to say it is, I feel like I'm most in touch with my sexual instinct. When there's a certain level of abandon that I'm in touch with, there's a certain level of like, abandon, yeah, yeah, yeah. And even recklessness feels like too reckless a word, but there is a certain like, I don't care anymore, you know, there's a and I don't mean like, I guess I don't need to qualify that. Yeah, but there's, there's, yeah, there's a certain level of, I don't, I'm not paying attention to anything anymore. I'm just in my own experience. I'm just in this engagement, in this interaction. I'm just following, you know, there's a, there's a certain level of, there's a certain level of, like, I don't know, there's like, a certain level of tunnel vision and just kind of blocking everything else out. It's like, really, like nothing, nothing matters right now. And I'm also, and this is, like, a main way that I differentiate it from the social instinct. Also, is it social is very like, substantial. I can, like, write an essay on what's happening with the social instinct, you know, like when I'm in a really engaging and I still experience it as passionate, really engaging and like, juicy kind of social, social interaction. I like, know what's happening when I'm in it. It still feels really exhilarating and it feels really satisfying, and it feels still, it feels really pleasurable. But there's a certain way that I am, like maintaining my own boundaries. I'm in control. Isn't necessarily going anywhere. I'm engaged in what's going on, but when I'm in more engaged in a sexual instinct, thing that can still be in the social sphere, I have kind of lost track of of time, awareness, concern for what's really going on. I'm just like in my own experience, it really is like an animalistic kind of, kind of tapping in. There's maybe more to say. I mean, there's definitely more to say, but that would be the easiest, yeah, start to that.
Josh Lavine 1:01:36
I'll just quick follow up. What's it like for you and you're like feeling yourself? Oh,
Alexandra Arroyo-Acevedo 1:01:46
I mean, I kind of just maybe cliche, but I just like, kind of feel like I could take over the world, like it's like it just feels very much just like I'm not necessarily a part of the social milieu, but like the world is just here for me. And it just gets to like, have me, I'm just imposing myself on the world now and people and experiences and places and stuff like that. Like, it's just it feels like the phrase the world is my oyster. That's what it feels like to me when I'm, like, really into myself, or into what I'm doing or what I'm creating, or something like that. It's like, it's all just for me.
John Luckovich 1:02:25
She's She's the juice, he is fruit. So,
Josh Lavine 1:02:32
yeah, go ahead, John, see. So
John Luckovich 1:02:34
you asked, Would you ask the you said it was reverse, I
Josh Lavine 1:02:38
can't, kind of the first question well, so yeah. I mean, it's just interesting that you guys are one social dominant, one social blind, and kind of talking about what it means to be in a balanced, healthy relationship with your sexual instinct. And so the reverse question for you is, how, how do you know, and how do you track when you are in your sexual energy in a way that is healthy and balanced versus fixated. And what is it like? What is fixated sexual energy for you look like like? When are you overdoing it versus? When are you actually with it in a in an embodied way or a present way? Maybe Alexander can help, because maybe she can see it
John Luckovich 1:03:20
well. It makes me curious what Alexander would say. But so there's sort of two facets. When I'm with my lover, there's this way that I'm I'm not a person. I'm not like it's it is strange, because it's almost like coming to the same place in a certain way, because I'm not really checked in with myself. I am all my attention energy is trying to get her to be into me. I
Josh Lavine 1:03:56
see it's like your psychological location is just out there, like
John Luckovich 1:03:59
it's out, yeah, it's out, yeah. And, you know, it's not full of social stuff or something like that, but it's like, you know, is she responding to me? Is this, am I do, you know, like she does? She like me? You know, how do I, you know, how do I look here, all this kind of stuff. But I become like, I self Objectify. I become basically like a tool, and then out in the world, there's a way in which overdoing it is, like, I'm kind of destroying myself in some way. I'm trying to, like, blow out my fuses, and I'm doing something maybe dangerous, or I'm like, I used to, I used to literally play with like fire a lot, as you know, when I was in high school, like, mob cocktails and stuff like that. And like, you know, like trying to do like, you know, going to. Far with, like, a substance or something. But there's, there's a way I'm, like, pushing myself out of myself in a way I'm not, I'm not think I'm not. I've lost my sense of personhood, my social instinct, and so when I'm in my actual sexual energy, I'm here as a person. There is a see, like, it's, it's, it's just like, black and white versus color, and, you know, in sort of dimensionality, it's like, like, whoa. I'm, I'm like, you know, I'm fully it's, it's like this, these levels. There's like this, this fixated part I was talking about. And then there's like, Oh, I'm actually here as a person enjoying this and with this, and met by my partner and met by her, and we're reciprocal. And then it's like, you know, level three is, like, skyrocketing out of myself. You know, I'm where I'm, like, transcended or burst out of my own selfhood, and I'm like, something more, if that makes sense, you know, like I've gone be I've found myself by losing myself at that point. Does that make sense?
Josh Lavine 1:06:17
It actually, it feels, it feels like what you're tracking is different levels of presence in the heart center. The heart center. It's like, it's like, if you're valuing, if you're not valuing yourself, you're trying to your psychological anchor is out there in her trying to get her to value you through the sexual instinct in a sexual way, right? Getting her track as you versus being in yourself, valuing yourself, um, just amusing yourself and being a sexual being into yourself, you know, kind of feeling yourself sexually, and then the sort of self transcendence of just like, well, out of level three, which
John Luckovich 1:06:56
sounds Yeah, it comes, sounds great, yeah, complete, like, surrender to it, or maybe whatever, right?
Alexandra Arroyo-Acevedo 1:07:02
Yeah, yeah. It's interesting too, because even though we're opposite stackings, there is a way that, like, when I am afraid of the sexual instinct, it almost looks the same as when John's fixated with the sexual instinct. There's a certain way that, like, our attention moves from from being in our own energy to being overly preoccupied with how the other person is receiving us, you know. So John, when John is more in a more fixated place, it can, he can feel a little bit more anxious, a little bit more like, over concerned with, like, how I'm responding to him with, like, you know, is he collecting the sexual resource, you know? And I don't mean, I don't mean like, the physical active sex. But like, is, am I excited? You know, there's like, a he's tracking my responsiveness, even if nothing happens. And then, yeah, out in the world, it can be like a testing of, like, how provocative he is, or, like, you know, how far he can, like, take something, or something like that, where, when he is more relaxed with himself, or, like, when, when the sexual instinct has more, like, room to breathe. I experience, I experience you. John is more open to pleasure. Actually, like, it's, it's, it's, actually, it's more relaxed. And I don't mean more relaxed in like, a nine ish kind of way, or like that. It's like, lost any kind of intensity or anything like that. But it's just more like, it feels like there's a place for, like, the sensation and the pleasure to land, as opposed to being overly external. Oh, yeah, overly externalized about it,
Josh Lavine 1:08:26
that makes sense. Yeah. So last question, can you give us a taste of, like, the kinds of exercises, maybe one or two, just examples of like, something that you might give someone to help get them in touch with their sexual instinct.
Alexandra Arroyo-Acevedo 1:08:44
Sure. I mean, the first one that comes to mind is the sensation practice, which we did this recently at a conference in the Netherlands. But one is just recognizing the sensational, the sensation of each instinct, so that you can differentiate them, you know. And this is something we'll talk about in the course a lot, but like sexual blinds, will experience the excitation of their dominant instinct and potentially confuse it for sexual excitation. So if I'm getting a really strong social hit, I might confuse that for sexual attraction, when sexual attraction really feels completely different, you know, and then the person that, like, commits to relationship with that kind of energy finds out way too late, not that I have any experience with this, finds out way too late, that there's not actually an excitation there, that there's not actually like, yeah, there's not actually a polarity there. So that's one of the first things we'll be bringing into this, and we'll kind of keep coming back to this kind of grounding. Is like, what does there's like visualization exercises and stuff like that. Like, what is the sensation of social in your body? What's the sensation of self prize and what's the sensation of sexual because our stackings are never, not going to be our stackings. We're never going to stop the. Kind of back and forth motion of like fixation and non fixation and presence and non presence and stuff like that. So coming back to an anchor point is going to be something really important for every person with every instinct, like, period,
John Luckovich 1:10:14
yeah, yeah. I mean, very well said, I think I alluded to it earlier, where it's like finding not just through sensation, like, which is the key and the ground and the most important part is like finding your own sexual instinct through sensation, but it's also going to be like reinforcing it esthetically to oneself. Okay, this is good, yeah, because you know, it is a display. There is a certain esthetic adjacentness to it, and adornments and enjoyment, you know, all those kind of things. And like, I mean, in the in the animal kingdom, and I mean, this is true in humans, but we just don't recognize it on these terms. But every all the bright colors and calls and dances and displays is a sexual instinct. You know, it's the Mate, it's the it's the extended phenotype. And so there's, there's a like, there's an esthetic component. And so like, you know, I'm playing with this, how we're going to do it, or whatever, but I want people to make like musical playlists, but also like kind of like image collages to hone in on that I found, what has been really valuable, and working with clients is helping them find a like, a memory that they've had where they experience themselves turning on their own juice, and it working either for themselves or for some or towards somebody else, like, and I've had clients be like, Oh, I just don't know anything about my sexual instinct. And then they'll be like, Oh, but there was this one time. Or, you know, they'll go like, they'll go look through old image like I have. I've had clients go through, I've asked them to, like, go through old images of themselves, see what they liked about their look at any particular time, and they're like, Oh, I liked my I felt I was feeling myself when I was wearing this thing, or I was doing this thing, or my hair was this way, and and, you know, I mean, like the way that we Feel. Let's see how I say this part of our sexual display is it's not for everybody. It's meant to be a very distinct flavor that repels most people but turns on a limited number. And it's not meant to be generally appealing and likable. And so that's something that, especially if you're sexual blind and you have a really strong social instinct, can be a difficult thing to contend with, because you what you're doing then, is incorporating and integrating into your persona, into your image, things that might turn some people off, that might alienate some people, that might give them the, you know, wrong impression, whatever that means. And so, so there's, there's a way of finding how to do that in a way that actually feels true to oneself. Yeah, that's a really big deal. So yeah, we're gonna try to figure out ways to do that. Like, you know, we've been joking that Alexander jokes that my subtype of sexual instinct is, I'm a silk shirt R and B sexual type, and so, yeah, there are these, like, different,
Unknown Speaker 1:13:38
not, not like, we're
John Luckovich 1:13:38
gonna classify things like that. But there's, like, a way that, like, like, even though that's a joke, there's a way that, like, I've, you know, I love old R and B and stuff, and like, there's a way to, like, Help, yeah, definitely, yeah, that, that, that energy behind it is the way I experience my sexual energy, you know. And someone else might have a different, you know, there's like, a Bjork sexual type and whatever. But like, I'll take, I'll take silk shirt, R and B. So it's about finding your kind of like energy, your archetype, something along those lines, and finding a way to your map, yeah, and like, like reinforcing it to yourself in a way that's natural and encouraging, rather than, like, artificial and like trying to talk yourself into something, does that make sense?
Alexandra Arroyo-Acevedo 1:14:22
Yeah. And a way that is ever renewing also, like it needs to be in the moment. It's a present experience. So to find, like, the sexual map I would have made for myself, like the way that I see myself a few years ago is very different from now, and it's going to be very different in the future. It's going to be a constantly renewing thing, whatever stays great, I'm still into it, and if something goes maybe I'll be into it again in the future, but nor now, right?
Josh Lavine 1:14:50
Yeah, cool. Well, I'm really excited about you guys offering this course and any final Any final thoughts here
Alexandra Arroyo-Acevedo 1:14:59
we're. Excited about it. We're excited about it. There's a lot of energy here. And you know, this is just going to be one of those things, I guess I got, I guess I kind of want to manage people's expectations. Like, this is not going to be a course on seduction or whatever. This is going to be finding your own sexual flavor, learning how to respond to the things that excite you, learning how to recognize your responsiveness, that kind of stuff. And, of course, as with the sexual instinct, as with any of the instincts, this is not this, there's, it's not going to cover everything, but we're going to really hit the most important things. Yeah,
John Luckovich 1:15:30
beautiful, cool, yeah. And hopefully it becomes a jumping off point to explore things in it, like, like, it'll kick up enough that will, like, start up the next round of interesting stuff. You know, I'm saying, like, deeper, interesting stuff.
Josh Lavine 1:15:47
Yeah, I'll just say one final thing. I can't help myself as a social self, press, type, it's like this, this is such an important topic. It's such an important topic because it's, I'm thinking about like the ME TOO movement, for as an example, and just just how much the dark underbelly shadow of sexual energy operates in our culture, and how it comes out in these perverse forms, and when men aren't men in particular. What you know when I think it's like a Jordan Peterson quote. And forgive me for quoting him, but it's like, something about, like, um, like, if, if you're afraid of what strong men can do, you just, you'll have to be terrified of what, what a weak man can do,
Alexandra Arroyo-Acevedo 1:16:33
that that's good. Yeah, it's
Josh Lavine 1:16:36
really good. And it's like, this is what I this is how I think about like, men who are not in touch with themselves sexually and fear for their ability to like, attract people, and haven't cultivated a real relationship with their sexual energy that can really get to dark places, and people can totally develop themselves and be in self development circles and make lots of money and stuff like that, and be in positions of power, but have not really prioritized this part of their lives. And you know, some really dark things can happen there. And so I'm really excited to start exploring this, and for you guys to offer this as a as a thing, just it's this is a really important societal blind spot to start pouring a flashlight into, and, yeah, and reducing the social stigmas around, you know, what you're genuinely attracted to, and how you respond to it, and just all that kind of stuff, you know. And kind of stuff, you know. And so, yeah, yeah. So I'm really excited about this, yeah,
Alexandra Arroyo-Acevedo 1:17:26
yeah, yeah. I do want it to be, obviously, we're going to be doing a lot of teaching and maybe some correcting on, like, the Enneagram space and stuff like that. But I really do want it to be like a place of encouragement, like, I want people to come out being like, really have like, a sense of like, like, feel entitled to their own sexual instinct. You should feel entitled to what you are attracted to and what you like about yourself. And there's nothing wrong with that, you know. So I that's a main goal of mine.
John Luckovich 1:17:55
Yeah, and thanks for your support, Josh, and very excited to teach Alexandra. I think that'd be really fun. Yeah,
Josh Lavine 1:18:08
great. Okay, well, on that adorable note,
John Luckovich 1:18:12
okay, well, we'll
Josh Lavine 1:18:13
close and all right, we'll see you guys hopefully in the course.
Alexandra Arroyo-Acevedo 1:18:17
All right, thanks. Okay. All right, thanks, Josh.
Josh Lavine 1:18:21
Thank you so much for joining me for this conversation with John and Alexandra about the sexual instinct. If you would like to join their class, you can go to the Enneagram Schools website at WWW dot vnegram school.com and you can also just go directly to the page for the course, which is the Enneagram school.com, backslash, sexual hyphen, instinct, hyphen, class. Again, there will be a link in the show notes to check it out. If you are watching this conversation on YouTube, then I invite you to please click the like button and the subscribe button. It's a zero cost and very effective way to support me and our work and the Enneagram school. And if you're listening to this as a podcast, you can leave up to a five star review. All right, that is it for me. Thank you very much, and I will see you in the next episode. You.
