Sandy Jahmi Burg 0:00
So focusing, essentially this ability, and these are natural skills, but, but it requires kind of a slowing down this ability to kind of check inside with ourselves and some basically, it's a fresh felt sense arrives.
Josh Lavine 0:21
Welcome to another episode of what it's like to view. My name is Josh Lyon, your host. Today marks an evolution of this show. Previously on the show, I have exclusively done long form interviews with people of each Enneagram type, and I'm expanding the show to include interviews with people who are practitioners of different modalities of inner work, or experts in different models of of the inner world of development itself, etc. So I'm very excited to welcome my first guest in this expansion. Sandy Jami berg is a practitioner of a of one of my favorite inner work modalities, called focusing. Focusing is not what it sounds like. It was invented by or discovered by a guy named Eugene jenlin, and sometimes it's referred to as jenlens focusing. And what it is is it's a way of tuning in to your pre verbal body's felt sense of a situation or just something going on in your life, more than any other modality, focusing helps me understand what is meant by the intelligence of the body. It is a profoundly useful and kind of almost intuitive way of working with yourself, and I have likened it before to being guided through a waking dream state. Typically, what you do in a focusing session is you are guided by a companion into an inner state of sensing what's going on in you, and then you are kind of verbally reporting on what is happening inside. And then the companion is reflecting back to you things that are helping you stay in contact with that felt sense. And the felt sense has some things to say. So what I've done in this interview is structured it in such a way that we give a bit of an intro, and then I have sandy actually guide me through a focusing session. Takes about 20 minutes, and then afterwards we debrief and unpack it and kind of take you into the practitioners lens, like, What the hell is actually happening here? What are you watching? And we kind of take you step by step through what a focusing journey entails, what it is and what's happening kind of behind my eyes or inside my inner world, in these long stretches of silence or in just in these moments when I'm sort of disconnected from the social engagement, from the conversation with her, and I'm kind of connected just to myself, intra personally focusing is one of those things that can be very difficult to explain. It really needs to be experienced to understand what it is. But it tend, it continues to be a modality that I send people to often. I recommend frequently as a way to get in touch with your body, to slow down, to connect to gut intelligence and to start understanding the whole universe that is your pre verbal inner space. So I think that's a pretty good introduction for now. I'm very excited for you to learn from my focusing teacher, Sandy Johnny Berg. By the way, you can find her at Learn focusing.org she has classes that she teaches that are level one through four, and then afterwards, she can help you on the path to becoming a certified focusing practitioner, if that's something you're interested in. But I'm very excited for you to get a taste and a teaser of what focusing is through this conversation and demo. So without further ado, here is my friend and teacher, Sandy. So why don't we start with, what is
Sandy Jahmi Burg 3:51
focusing? What is focusing? Yeah, so it's very interesting. So the term focusing, focusing was named by Eugene jenlin, a philosopher who, essentially he had the opportunity to work with Carl Rogers, so in the field of psychotherapy, and as he was doing that, well, let's see, I guess too, he tells stories now that he was looking for focusing because of childhood experiences where He wanted to understand how someone has a knowing, like a knowing that feels like authentic truth, such that they will do really brave, courageous things like following that knowing and so. So he had that from his childhood that kind of geared him up. And then he had this. Opportunity to work with Carl Rogers. And they were, they did. They were the first ones, as far as we're aware, that did recordings of therapy sessions to kind of observe what was going on. This was in the 1950s and essentially, from these observations, they recognized that it was not something that the therapist was necessarily doing. It was not a particular technique that would actually create a successful movement for the client, such that, you know, they would go on with their lives and be be complete. It was, it was something that the client themselves were doing, and it's similar to what I'm doing now. They would kind of slow down as they were talking and kind of be groping for the right words like they were listening inside themselves. And it is so so focusing essentially this ability, and these are natural skills, but, but it requires kind of a slowing down this ability to kind of check inside with ourselves and some basically, it's a fresh felt sense arrives.
Josh Lavine 6:30
So there's a couple of things that I want to pull out of what you're saying. First of all, just this, this idea of an inner knowing that we that arises from within, that if we can anchor to it in some kind of way or honor it and let it fill us, then it is the basis for courage and For forward motion in our lives. And so that's paragraph one. That's a very first of all profound thing. And then the other thing that you said, that I think is really profound, is how when jenland and Carl Rogers were doing their research, one of the things that came out of it was that it didn't really matter the theoretical orientation of the therapist or their modality of how they were working with a person. One of the key ingredients, as I remember, there were three, right? It was like the empathic there were three criteria for a successful therapeutic process or relationship. One is the empathic capacity of the therapist, no matter what they were kind of, right,
Sandy Jahmi Burg 7:36
doing, yeah. So the therapist does matter in that sense, yeah. And then one
Josh Lavine 7:41
is the the quality of the relationship in some kind of way, and then the other, and then the other. The third thing had nothing to do with the therapist, which is literally, it was the client's own ability to sense what was freshly arising within them. Because a lot of times what happens in therapy is people go to therapy and they have a story about, I'm depressed because X, Y or Z, and they just keep looping on the story, and they're not sensing what we would call them, focusing, what is life forward within them. So this, this idea, this word, life forward comes. And so life forward, like the way that I remember, I remember you explaining this in class once, like the what? The way that it kind of hit me as a very simple idea is, like, anytime you have a sensation, it is expressing or implying some thing to do next, which we call the life forward movement. So, for example, you put your hand on a hot stove. Ouch. It's implying that you should take your hand off the stove, yeah, but, and that's a very you could call it a gross sensation in this like gross versus subtle, meaning, it's like a very obvious sensation, but there are these really subtle sensations that we have inside, like when we slow down and we just sit and kind of wait for something to arrive, Like we feel a block in our chest or something in our stomach or something tingling in our shoulders, and when we sit with that, that also implies something like forward for us. So I wonder if this is so abstract, one of the I'm also smiling because I love focusing, and it's probably the modality that has kind of connected with my organism in the most, in the deepest way of any of all the things that I've tried. And also it is one of the hardest things I've ever had to explain to a person who's never done it, because it's I've used terms like it's almost like being led through a waking dream state or tuning into your body's felt sense of something, and the felt sense speaks to you. It has some wisdom for you to let you if you can slow down and listen to it. So anyway, I've been saying a lot. I wonder if you have any color commentary on that, and then maybe we would do a demo to kind of drop in and get a sense of what actually. Happens in a focusing session?
Sandy Jahmi Burg 10:02
Yeah. And I think I want to come back with what's actually pretty simple, although actually practicing it, like you said, maybe not. And it's the, it's a simple thing of what we want to do is be in relationship. Oh, yeah, yeah. And, and it's also, you know, another way I described that was the sense of, you go inside and you create, you open a space. But essentially, if we're not in relationship with something, so it's like, if we get a belief, like, I believe, for instance, there's snow outside. I believe it's that snow is too heavy for me to shovel, you know. And I agree with that belief, you know. Then that's not shifting, you know, my behavior is going to be not getting out there. And whereas, if I can step back from, okay, so the snow is kind of heavy, maybe I can find a way. So what comes up automatically in me is like, Well, yeah, you can take really small shovels full, like, you don't have to, like, push all the way across. You can just take a little bit and anyway, there it's like, I can find ways then to do what I when I'm agreeing with, and we kind of call it, or, you know, not in relationship with, merged with that idea, then there's no change, like it's it's simply is your reality, and when you can kind of step back and give it some space, I can be in relationship with that belief that the snow is too heavy. Yeah, the snow might be too heavy for the normal way I would approach shoveling, and maybe I could approach shoveling in a different way today. Okay, so there we go, like, that's That's it, and that's what we want to maybe, as we do a demo here, maybe they can watch for how that happens. Okay,
Josh Lavine 12:11
let's do that. Yeah, right. So, yeah, let's dig into the demo. And one thing just to point out is that with focusing, sometimes people ask me, like, because one my I often send clients to you and you know, and I'm like, and they're like, Okay, so what are we going to do? And I've been working with them on some issue that's coming up in their lives, and I say, Okay, bring that issue to Sandy, and then we'll invite what is here about that issue. So this idea of making an invitation as you enter a focusing session, yes, that's huge. Is huge. So, and you can also do a focusing session just without an invitation, just whatever is here, but you can also kind of direct your focusing session to be about something so, so let's do just thinking about what invitation to make here, and I'm thinking about something that comes up for me every time I do one of these interviews, is the anxiety of, is this going well? Is this interesting? Are people gonna get anything out of this? You know what I mean, that kind of thing, yeah. So let's do let's do that. Let's invite that and see what happens.
Sandy Jahmi Burg 13:26
Okay, and are you gonna be focuser?
Josh Lavine 13:29
Yeah, let's do that, and let's have companion. Yeah. Okay, cool.
Sandy Jahmi Burg 13:35
All right, maybe
Josh Lavine 13:36
we'll go for seven to 10 minutes. However, if Yeah, you kind of sense. It, yeah,
Sandy Jahmi Burg 13:41
okay. And so we'll just kind of begin. I'm just going to check with you, with how I can support you right now.
Josh Lavine 13:51
Oh, let's also do a lead in, okay? Lead in. Do the lead in?
Sandy Jahmi Burg 13:56
Yeah, yeah. All right, yeah. So, so I'll mention something here then, just to kind of explain, in order for a felt sense to form. So. So since Jen Lin did that initial research, we've learned a lot, essentially, about these skills. We've been studying them and how to support, you know, being able to have them be more, you know, natural in our daily life. And one of the things we found is that for in order for a felt sense to form, we need to kind of feel safe in our current environment. And then I also want you to be in the present moment. In neuroscience terms, we would describe that as being in your right hemisphere or your body. And so, yeah, so just so people know, that's kind of our general goals. And so I'm going to. Again, by actually having you just acknowledge the space around you, yeah, yeah. Sometimes I know just finding something and it feels familiar can be so helpful, and then, you know, yeah, beginning to kind of bring your awareness closer to the outer edges of your body. And so feeling like those contact points, yeah, what you did see how judge naturally and yeah. And then there's maybe this sense of kind of, this leisurely acknowledging anything you know that feels like it's already here. It's just kind of clearing a space. You know, in order for you to really be with what you're going to invite and interesting, your invitation is probably here. So, so maybe we'll just kind of say hello, yeah to this. How Yeah, however that is for you now, that sense of anxiety and wondering and then finding your way to your breath. I often like to encourage someone to practice that relationship here with your breath, see if you can really feel yourself alongside that which breathes you, even though we all often do so much breath work, we we don't necessarily feel ourself alongside. And then, yeah, you're going to kind of drop into that whole inner area, and we like to say kind of from your throat to your pelvic floor, and there's a sense of, kind of finding what feels like of your center. Yeah, maybe, yeah, really picturing yourself and kind of a welcoming space in front of you, and then giving yourself this invitation, inviting all this around, yeah, these, these recordings being, you know, bringing them out into the world. What that means for you. Yeah, freshly and waiting. I
and when you're aware of something, you might let me know. I
Josh Lavine 18:34
yeah, as you were talking, I was aware of just a lot of energy, kind of more towards the upper part of my body, kind of all over the place, okay? And, yeah, let's see. There might be more texture about it, not just energy, like it had this feeling. I don't know what this means, but this gesture,
Sandy Jahmi Burg 19:00
yeah, okay, yeah, yeah. So there is this gesture, yeah, this energy in the upper part of your body, and it's, uh, it's has a sense, to me of kind of wanting to move, wanting to, let's see, taking that back. And so this is something I'll just for everyone watching. Key thing is that we want to take back and check with our body that we're understanding it right. So what comes here?
Josh Lavine 19:36
Yes, you just use the word or kind of characterize it as wanting to move. So I'm taking that back in. It feels not quite right. It feels like move, yeah, but more like a control, actually.
Sandy Jahmi Burg 19:57
Okay, yeah. So you're you're understanding. It's wanting. To control, yeah, how it so, how it goes out there. Let's see what fears.
Josh Lavine 20:08
I'll tell you what it is. It's wanting to control. Like, okay, you and the way, the the definitions, sort of sequence themselves, and the terms, like I sort of want to, I almost have, like the it's almost like it's connected to some kind of inner sense of what would, what would be the optimal way to present this in a way that makes sense to people. And then a sense of control around that.
Sandy Jahmi Burg 20:47
Okay, so that's here something that, yeah, believes it has a knowing about an optimal way to bring to explain, focusing. Yes. Okay, great, yeah, yeah, so, yeah, so you might really let it know you you hear that and, and what comes to me is there's a real passion in that. Yeah, I
Josh Lavine 21:27
uh, I'm sort of doing this at the same time. I want to comment like that thing, of of getting into relationship with that thing is so huge, and you emphasize this a lot every in all of your classes, that's the key move, you know, is whatever's here, bringing yourself capital S into relationship with that thing. And it's kind of like there's almost like a, like a like a like an unmerging, like an unenmeshing in ifs they would call unblending, right? It's like a with that thing. So I'm just anyway, that's kind of what's happening in me right now,
Sandy Jahmi Burg 22:11
where I'm kind of, yeah, yeah, creating more space. Maybe we take
Josh Lavine 22:17
a second with it, just So I kind of drop back into it. I
Yeah, you know, I experienced it as a, like, it's right here somewhere in my chest, but also it has energy, like out of my body, out like in this general vicinity right in front of me. And I experience it as like a, as like a sentient entity, and its form isn't quite consolidated in my mind's eye yet, but it feels like it is a something you know here.
Sandy Jahmi Burg 23:21
Yeah, so here you are together. You in this kind of sentient energy. And so what comes to me is to kind of invite you to kind of sense how it would like you to be with it. So there's a sense of settling down with it and and you are following this energy and finding what feels like it can work right now.
Josh Lavine 24:11
What I'm noticing about it is that it's very it's really intense. It feels very strong,
Sandy Jahmi Burg 24:17
okay, and so that feels actually, that's really, that's one of the skills that often can come up, that is to acknowledge it's really intense, it's so strong as a way to help ourselves become become bigger. So it's going to need a lot of space, like you need to be bigger than I.
Josh Lavine 25:20
It feels like there's a kind of wordless acknowledgements That just happened, like I just moved my body in that way, and it kind of was breathing differently, and it kind of made me feel wider in my back.
Sandy Jahmi Burg 25:52
Okay, yeah, so there was this sense of Yeah, feeling wider in your back,
Josh Lavine 26:06
where this entity kind of it noticed in a certain way, you know,
Sandy Jahmi Burg 26:15
yes, so, so this can be a really powerful moment within there, where you know how you respond to it, seeing you. And so let's just really see, like say, can you really be right, welcoming, and how do you how do your eyes? I
I need it now.
Josh Lavine 26:57
Well, maybe a way to say it is that I don't feel as intimidated by it, you know? I feel more like I can meet it. And I think it feels it's I'm sensing that it feels kind of calmer with me.
Sandy Jahmi Burg 27:17
Yeah, beautiful, yeah. So, so this would be a huge goal of focusing. It's essentially like how we learn right to create space for, for, you know, all of our body to communicate with us and feel welcome and seen accepted and and, essentially, yeah, I'm thinking that maybe we look for a gentle stopping place, because this is huge, because if we can create this kind of environment, then more of our bodies, knowing shows up. Yeah, so, so somehow, as you're which, maybe now you know, finding a way right to kind of continue appreciating where you are now, and and letting, yeah, maybe continuing to listen, of course, as you move forward with this whole project.
Josh Lavine 28:22
You know, what's occurring to me is that, like it's, in a way, it's message for me is that
I can sort of participate in a conversation with whoever I'm interviewing as kind of equal in a certain way, and not like, there's a there's a way that maybe I wasn't before, or that it's like, let me get other words around it. It's basically like a basically, oh, you have a perspective to share that is actually valuable, you know. So it's a conversation between two people. It's not just a spotlight, you know, on
Sandy Jahmi Burg 29:16
Okay, yeah. So there is a shift in perspective of, I feel that a more of a live interaction going on than right, just right the spotlight, which, which would have right particular goals, yeah, yes. So, so what comes to me is we have a favorite phrase and focusing, no wonder anyway, like, yeah, no wonder it would and then now it's yeah, there's this little little bit different view.
And so how encourage you to kind of stay with that? So this is a whole nother aspect. So when some. Think shifts like this, and we have this little bit of life forward flow. We want to stay with it as long as it's here, which really, yeah, we'll talk about that after. But So doing that and then, and then, when it kind of dissipates, yeah, that's when you might bring Your awareness, kind of back To the outer Space and
Unknown Speaker 31:23
Okay, I
Josh Lavine 32:15
Yeah, one of the things that's hard to explain about focusing is that so much of it is just like a wordless metabolizing that happens at the level of the felt sense. Yeah, so that last minute of silence was just me. It's like I experienced an actual inner shift, something, something like woke up and got acknowledged in me, and that felt more a lot better aligned. I felt more here. It was kind of like that message that the sentient entity wanted me to hear. I received it, and then it kind of had an impact internally, that impacts spread like a, like a sensation, almost like a, kind of spread through my body, and I was kind of just waiting for it to complete
Sandy Jahmi Burg 33:06
itself, yeah, yeah. And it's important that we allow that, yeah, yeah. There's something else in my point about, let's follow up with that in in just culturally, we're conditioned to, we tend to pay more attention to the negative, like the things that feel like problems to solve, and we can, you know, just However, you know, then when we find a solution, we don't pause to really allow this new perspective that just came here to kind of really be, what I'll say, like it could be your the way you experience these kind of situations From now on. However, if you haven't really, you know, celebrated that or allowed it to spread in the way it needs to, which is kind of a neural there's basically, I describe it as neural rewiring going on, possibly myelinating. Yeah, that it, and that awareness, basically, that simple awareness that we are kind of trained to kind of flip over, you know, kind of flip past those things and so that can that takes some real practice of really slowing down with, whoa. Like, you know, I I was with someone who, you know, normally makes me tense, and now I was much more welcoming to them. And let's how cool that is, that I can be more comfortable. Yeah. Hmm,
Josh Lavine 35:02
you know, what strikes me so much about this whole way of experiencing yourself is that, like you can have an insight, and it can exist sort of up here as a as a thought, you know? And then here's another way to put it. It's like, in I hear, I heard people saying things like, they're going to set an intention to be more of a certain kind of way, like 2024 I'm going to be, I'm going to be more courageous and stronger. I'm going to take more risks. And that's the intention. And and then it's like, they, they assert this frame upon themselves that exists at the level of the minds, but it hasn't trickled into the kind of heart and body, you know. It hasn't actually, yeah, and it's, it's almost like a, like a super ego imposition on the infrastructure that hasn't actually integrated it and focusing is this thing that allows whatever insight to get trickled, you know,
Sandy Jahmi Burg 36:11
to get digested and become your natural way of being, not something you even have to think About like you are, naturally. Yeah, strong and courageous and and not having to do it with that sense of because, right? We can go through the whole year of okay, being aware that this is one of those opportunities of testing. So okay, I'm going to make myself be strong here, and we can do that, and we're going to be with all these uncomfortable feelings, and we're going to overpower them. And the thing is, like we are not actually comfortable in that experience, and the people around us won't be because they are sensing our uncomfortableness that we're trying to push down. And so it really doesn't it just doesn't work. But that is the typical way, right? We might often approach these kind of things, and this is so different, it's softer and trusting of our own body process that we can get there. Yeah, yeah,
Josh Lavine 37:20
yeah. Something else you said about the positive, like negative. Positive thing is that one of the cool things about focusing is that I usually, I usually not every time, but I usually depart leave a focusing session feeling so good, just like my whole body feels like it got, it got filled up with that thing that was, I can't quite articulate it. It's like, it's filled up with something that feels really yummy. You know? It's like, I literally how I'm sensing myself right now, in my body feels more saturated with the kind of goodness and alignment than it did before. And I find that radical. And I mean,
Sandy Jahmi Burg 38:12
and it's what gets people hooked once you Yeah, it's an interesting thing. Yeah, you come once, yeah, you go, that's what you'll come back for more.
Josh Lavine 38:25
Yeah. So there are some things that from a from a practitioner or competence point of view that I, I want to pull out of what happened in that focusing session. Yeah, one of the things that I can't remember, if it's your level three class or four class, or something like that. But you talk about, kind of the the contour of a focusing journey where the first, like, you end so you you like, you know, person who's like, what the hell just happened? You know? Like, yeah, you know, why were you reflecting certain phrases back at me? Why did you ask certain Why did you ask me to do certain things? What the hell am I saying? You know, like, it's it would be very witchy, you know what I mean, to just watch this and be like, What the hell is this? So I want to demystify it in a certain sense, and kind of, you know, like,
Sandy Jahmi Burg 39:20
yeah, it is. It is so simple, yeah, so, so I'll try my example that I like, I like this idea that you're out here go, you're in town, maybe you're in something like a grocery store, so you're just doing your and you meet someone you know, and so it's or you see them. So there's this whole interesting thing too, like there's a choice. There's so many choice points that are happening, yeah, right, and they're all relational. Essentially, these are all relational skills. So there's a choice point, are you going to you know? Acknowledge that person right now and and then, if we acknowledge them, like so you're so that, that's the step of making contact. Then, you know, acknowledging. And then as you acknowledge, there's, you know, a choice point of, you know, are we going to, you know, have a little conversation? So are you going to walk toward them and actually say something, and then, once you do like you're again, there's another choice point. Hey, is there something we have to talk about and connect about the feels really alive. And, you know, once we get outside, we're going to stand out there and, you know, find a place to talk a bit. Or you could even make the choice, hey, let's go get a cup of coffee somewhere. You know, let's go actually sit down for a while. We haven't seen each other. And, hey, there's something, you know, and, and both people, yeah, anyway, of course, it's always relational. But those are essentially, it's, yeah, the steps, like you said, the shape, it's first. You have to see it, because we can. It's so funny how we ignore, or again, for instance, that whole sense of, if you're not in relationship, you're kind of agreeing with that belief or framework right now and then, yeah, you're not, basically, you're not seeing it. And so there is this, yeah, this self awareness skill and and then in that acknowledgement, you know, then, so you've made contact, and are we going to settle in? So the next step is kind of, yeah, settling in. And then does it feel like you're actually going to deepen? And so the deepen is Yeah. So there is this sense. So it's that similar journey that we do all the time, you know, we make those choices all the time, whether to even, I mean, I definitely am sometimes in the store and I'm like, oh, there's so and so and, you know, oh, that could be a long conversation. And I actually intentionally, kind of go down the other aisle, you know, yeah. So we do it all the time, and and then sometimes we're actually really, you know, and both people are just Yeah, it feels really important to connect right now, and it feels like one of those synchronistic moments that you wouldn't have wanted to miss. So there we go. Anyway. See what? Yeah,
Josh Lavine 42:39
yeah. So just pulling out, like the contour, it's like the first thing is in a focusing well, so that was an analogy, right for a whole focusing journey. What happens? It's like the first thing you do is you make contact with something that's in you and that, well, actually the first thing maybe, is before that, which the
Sandy Jahmi Burg 43:00
kind of, you have to see it well. So that's the whole interesting thing you have to acknowledge. And that's the self awareness. Because I see, yeah, and that would become a kind of come with the invitation, you're right. Because so in our daily life, our body, so this is what we like to say, our our body is always communicating with us, actually, and we're often not home, you know, not listening, right, right, right, right, yeah. And, and that's the thing, as you practice this more like we practice first, kind of with intentional, you know, with another person in sessions. The whole relational aspect makes it easier. But the goal is that naturally, you begin to use your body this way, where, and these are skills of interoception, where you're there. All of a sudden, you can tell something's going on in your gut, okay, okay, is there something in my environment that my body is communicating to me? Let me and you actually drop in and, you know, and so interesting, because sometimes you can drop in and it's just, it'll actually say, oh, it's, it was that, you know, something you had for lunch, it's turning a little too much. Or it's, we're having trouble, you know, we're and it'll actually tell you that, like, you're like, oh, it's lunch. But lots of times you'll go in and it's like, no, it's more, you know, it's and that's where it would take the slowing down. It's not just about lunch, it's something more. Yeah, yeah.
Josh Lavine 44:39
So I Yeah.
So it's like in a focusing session, what you do is you make an invitation, some something is here. We just assume. We make that assumption that something is yes, yeah, and. Sense. And so with the assumption that something is here, we slow down and then create the inner conditions to make contact with that thing, to let that thing arise, to let that thing kind of reveal itself. Yeah, and once, once it's it has revealed itself, then we kind of welcome it and acknowledge its presence in a certain kind of like, almost as if you, like, were to discover, like you were walking the woods and all of a sudden there was a deer over there, or something just kind of just acknowledging its presence, you know, and then, and then, this is where I get really I geek out about this particular moment, because there's so much that happens in this moment where this thing, if you respect it as an actual inner entity, like a part, you know, if you're familiar with parts work or or Gurdjieff idea of many eyes, it's like it's a it's a part of you. But if you respect it as its own entity. It has a current emotional state. Might be shy, might be afraid of you. It might be really angry, might be super frustrated, pacing around. It's it's this moment of acknowledging its presence is also in a certain way, taking in, taking an impression of its state. Yes, yeah. And then kind of the next assumption that we make is that what it needs is just to be allowed to be exactly as it is. So you're not trying to fix it. You're not if it's frustrating, not trying to calm it down, you're just welcoming it as it is. And the key, as you've been saying, it's this relationship piece. The whole point of focusing is to then enter a into a relationship with this thing. Yeah, and people like whatever that thing is shows up differently for people like in our classes, I was fascinated by the variety of ways that people
Sandy Jahmi Burg 47:00
communicate with us, yeah, all different ways. It's so cool. For
Josh Lavine 47:03
some people, it's just a color. For some people, it's a it's a phrase. For some people, it's literally, like an a deer, you know, or a whale, or sort of like an entity, you know, something is there? Images, yeah. Images, yeah. Or sometimes it's like, they know something is there, but it's behind a bush, and it's shy, it's not out yet, you know, these kinds of things. And so the whole thing is, there you are making this, this step of making contact and then acknowledging it, and then waiting for it to kind of acknowledge you back, and then,
Sandy Jahmi Burg 47:35
yeah, and that's a very important aspect, like that moment to me, yet, right? That magic is actually when you can tell it sees you, yeah, yes, yeah. And that's an inner, that's the inner authenticity, truth that it's, I don't know, I just say priceless. Yeah, you have, you have, yeah, that in place, yeah. And so
Josh Lavine 48:04
once you're there, once you sort of mutually acknowledge each other, then, then you're hanging out, you know, then things happen, you know? Then,
Sandy Jahmi Burg 48:13
yeah, that's when change can happen. Because now you're in relationship, for sure. And so it's an interesting thing, because sometimes so like you drop in and you you think you're creating a welcoming space. But so for things that are kind of deep within us, or I call neurologically isolated, or they would be things associated with traumas, or Sure, or more, stuck patterns from our childhood, or even generational those, they're so used to not being in the present moment. They're so used to being alone as they are, like, that's just the way it is. They are this, you know that it can take a while for them to see you for Yeah, yeah. And that's, that's just very it's just part of the process.
Josh Lavine 49:06
Yeah, one of the things I find so that I sometimes get self conscious about talking about this with people, because a lot of my clients are like business people, you know, who've like their their relationship with me is one of the first moments of their life. Maybe they're 30 something, 40 something years old, that they've actually started to encounter themselves in a real interior way. And, and all of a sudden, I'm like, You know what? You should try. You just try focusing. You should meet my friend Sandy. And, and they're like, what's that? And I'm like, Oh, you're just gonna, you know, meet the inner deer. You know, you're gonna meet this this, and it's gonna be shy or whatever. But anyway, but it's funny to talk about these, like these inner entities that kind of exists in you, and to to speak of them as if they are their own entities, you know, that they have in. Intelligence, that they're shy, that they're buried, that it takes a long time for them to get comfortable with you these kinds of things. But I wonder just if that's how as human beings, we personify things, and that's how we just make sense of it. It's literally how I experience it. Experientially. It feels like I'm discovering an entity and it has a sentence and it speaks to me. That's how I experience it, you know. And we could get about, geek out about the neuroscience, or what actually sort of, quote, unquote, what's actually happening, but that's certainly the story that generates itself automatically in me, as I do this process. Anyway, if you're like, if you can take the leap of faith and just accept that this is what's happening. You're meeting an entity inside you that is a part of you, and you can kind of enter relationship with it, then something very profound happens, which is, well, a couple things, first of all, like, if so I think of focusing a lot of times I introduce focusing by first introducing the idea of parts work. And I think of it as sort of a cousin with its own kind of genome, separate from internal family systems, you know. But it's kind of its own thing. But they're similar in the sense that there are parts, you know. The idea is like you think that you're this unified inner consciousness, actually, no, you have a lot of different parts. And also you have what we like, an assumption we make is that you have a self, you know, a self with a capital S. And when you discover one of these entities and you come into relationship with it, what is the thing? What? What is what of you is in relationship with that thing? It's actually you with a capital Y yourself, you know. And so, like, if you go back and watch the focusing session, we just did, like, that moment where you were, like, we acknowledged that it was very strong this entity, and I kind of placed its location right here. And then you were like, Oh, so you need to get bigger, you know? And that that's actually one of my favorite kinds of moments in focusing, where it's like, Oh, right. I literally, it's like, it's, it's a moment of self remembering. We
Sandy Jahmi Burg 52:20
create space? I Yeah. I think that yeah. My classes are called creating space for lasting change. And I, one of the skills is I really feel like being able to move within our inner like to understand that as the world out here has space. We have space in here, and we can actually move. We can Yeah, and space is our power, like our Yeah, we can create space and we can move within, like we can move closer to something, like, when our heart There's sadness somewhere, often, you know what? So what comes you know sadness. If you have sadness, I mean, just again, we can equate to our outer world. Like, if you have a friend who's sad and you see them sad. Some of us might do this. You might just walk out of the room. But actually, what might be helpful, and what comes to me, if I have a friend who's sad, and then we can even just think of an animal too, what happens I would naturally move toward it, sit alongside and actually, and often, just reach my hand without saying anything, yeah. It's just that the sadness then is not alone. There you go. Yeah, and right. So that whole what's needed here each time it's beautiful, it keeps you in the present moment, like that's the other the other thing that can happen. One thing I'll mention, in any focusing session, and again, in our daily life, we are typically using our brain from that merged place, like the way they show on those neural scans, you know, and and that happens within a session too, where we can kind of get too close and, you know, then we become sad ourself, rather than the one being with the sad. And essentially, the focus and technique has developed all these ways to help you stay back in relationship and then, and then it can change again, essentially when you're too close. So the whole spatial dynamics is just and it's fascinating. And, like you said, like, I'm just, like each person, it's so different.
Josh Lavine 54:54
Yeah, yeah, this is what's so what. What i i could just geek out about this all day is from the facilitator point of view, like that, there actually is, like, everything that we have been talking about, and the focusing session itself, it seems like this amorphous kind of dream, like inner blobby state, but actually there's this very particular process that's going on, and the kinds of reflections you're giving are designed with with real precision and intention to help the person who's focusing become more deeply in contact, in relationship With whatever it is that there is arising in them. And so, man, it's just, it's, I mean, I want to get into that in a second, because I think that's a really interesting thing to to just geek out about and know about, but just to follow the rest of the journey of the folks. So it's like you enter in, you sort of descend into your inner space. You make contact, you, you form the relationship, and then, and then, in relationship, something shifts right, just the relationship. It's being in relationship allows for something to happen. Communication happen a different, new kind of understanding, a shift in perspective, a growing and expansion of your actual self to include and not feel so small in the face of this strong thing, but actually to incorporate it into yourself. Yeah, and, and then the leaving the focusing session is, I think, a very, a very powerful and kind of misunderstood moment. Or a lot of times, what I see with beginning focusers is they'll just like, Okay, done. And they just like, open their eyes and they're out, but they're missing this whole process.
Sandy Jahmi Burg 56:51
Yeah, the
Josh Lavine 56:56
Yeah, yeah. And so it's kind of like you arrive through a focusing session at a new state of relationship with this thing that has arisen. You know, like prior to the focusing session, you were not really in relationship with this thing. It was sort of in you, blended with you. It was sort of running amok inside you, or is isolated and causing inner tensions. Via focusing, you come into relationship with it. Then you're there in relationship. And you kind of, you come almost like, it's almost like a handshake or a salute or a hug or just an acknowledgement that, like We're together now, we're in relationship now. And then that sensibility and whatever has sort of been decided, you could say, in the in the process, gets you, sort of like, breathe it into the rest of your body, and it just, kind of just fills you up, you know? And then after that process, you sort of gently come back to, quote unquote you, you arise back into quote unquote reality, or the world. You open your eyes again, but that inner state has actually shifted something at the level of your body, and really all three centers. It's shifted your body. It shifted the way you're actually sensing yourself, shifted your your experience of your identity, and it's also shifted your perspective on what's actually happening in your life.
Sandy Jahmi Burg 58:26
Yeah, yeah.
Josh Lavine 58:30
So I'm just like, I'm amazed by it, actually. I'm actually, you know what? I'm actually amazed by it. It is, it is, it's amazing. Is crazy. It's amazing. It is.
Sandy Jahmi Burg 58:41
It shows what we're capable of as human beings and and it's, it's the essence of being able to evolve, adapt. Yeah, I really feel like that when we practice we're not only gifting ourselves and the people around us, but however, like we are contributing to the evolution of the human brain in ways that, you know, we might, I can't really, you know, pinpoint, however, yeah, yeah, you know, we can. We can, you know, mentioned, like quantum physics or something, but, yeah, what comes to mind is that idea that, you know, a butterfly wings, you know, over there, and we feel the air from that, you know, across the other side of the planet. Literally, I feel like I experience those kind of little miracles all the time. It's amazing. Yeah,
Josh Lavine 59:50
so Can, can we geek out a little bit about the facilitator point of view? Like, what is how are you thinking about. What you're saying and the like at each stage the process. What is like? How are you? Are you? You're noticing like, checkpoints of like, okay, this the focuser is now here. Like, one thing to say is that, as a focusing companion or facilitator, you sort of instruct the person who's focusing to take you along the journey by staying inside like you keep their eyes closed. But they report every once in a while what is happening inside, so what where they are in relationship with what they're noticing about the thing. And sometimes they're long stretches of silence. But there's a way that you're kind of tracking how in contact with this thing they actually are or not, you know. And there are phrases that you say, invitations you make, to help them get more into contact. So can you talk a little bit about what
Sandy Jahmi Burg 1:00:56
that is? Yeah. So, so essentially, I'm also going within, and there's a whole interesting thing where, at any point, for instance, your process. So, so when I go within, I can feel your process in my body, yeah. And so, so that's where, and then, and then I have, you know, I have the skills of my goal is to help you, help this feel welcome, and also to help you. Essentially, I want, want to keep you in relationship as much as possible. And and so, via my sensing, you know, would be how I'm going to come, you know, I'm, I'm getting into the perspective of what has arrived for you as much as I can to help, you know, get a feel for what it's trying to communicate to you. And then by that, I can give a suggestion, and I am also aware of, right, the whole general process, like, whether you So, it's interesting, because some people might, you know when something first arrives, even you know, the first time they've ever tried this, if it is something that they have naturally kind of been in relationship with already. Like it may already trust them and communicate go right into sitting down and just spilling what it needs to like our body is always looking for those opportunities for us to be in relationship with us, if something like can tell that it would like to be different for you like it. It can tell that what it's doing for you now is not actually, you know, helping you thrive. That's the whole total amazingness under this that I can trust is that I trust your body, you know, wants your well being. And that's a whole twist right there, because a lot of us, you know, particularly if we're in, like, chronic pain or something, it's kind of hard to how can this pain want me, want my well being like, sure, yeah, that's because we're coming from the perspective of the something, wanting the pain to go away when we were, keep agreeing with that, and then nothing's going to happen. And so that's something we haven't gotten into either that often. And it's, it's it is kind of because of the natural, you know, the our brain is mostly divided into the right and left hemisphere, and with not much connection as particularly where the brain is right now in evolution, very little connection over our corpus callosum. And so often we are that's what we can do, is, is bring them together and then, and then there comes this new kind of working together and understanding of two perspectives that are very, you know, important. We want both of those perspectives. So, yeah, so there's a lot going on as a companion, as a facilitator, I want to be right there, like as an outer layer,
Josh Lavine 1:04:30
yeah, and there are kind of phases right for that you're tracking, like, for example, certain phrases You would say in the beginning, but not in the end. You know, like, like, for example, I remember, so the first thing to do is just to make contact, right? And so I remember in class, we would do these exercises of it's like the first thing that the focuser, you. Uh, meaning the person who is focusing says there and says they notice, um, instead of giving this, them some kind of suggestion for like, okay, maybe say hi, whatever you're you're sometimes just literally repeating their words back to them, right? And it's like, oh, like, as a focuser, I might say, Yeah, I'm sensing something really stormy in my gut. And then you would say something like, I don't know what would you say,
Sandy Jahmi Burg 1:05:33
yeah. So you're sensing something stormy
Josh Lavine 1:05:38
in your gut, yeah, yeah. Literally, the same phrase, yeah, and, and, but for because it's coming from you, something magical happens where it's
Sandy Jahmi Burg 1:05:47
like, you check back Yeah, and the stormy will come back with a no, it's not stormy. And so, so this is all that just goes back to kind of what I mentioned about the two hemispheres is so, so the way it, it kind of is, so our left hemp sphere is where we've stored everything we've learned about being a human being. It has patterns, and it also has our language center. And so it tends to communicate more with words, so that, so they'll tend to be, you know, a lot of thoughts and whereas our body, so our right hemisphere, communicates more with sensations, emotions, imagery, gestures, so, so, an interesting thing I like to look at, I think, I think a lot of us can relate to this is that when we first, like try to kind of connect with our body, what often can be happening is that kind of, you know, the one we hear more often our thoughts are Talking for our body. And so that can happen, and so, so then there can be, you know, a sense of, you know, allowing it to describe itself, and separating it from something that thinks it's stormy or is kind it's so interesting, and and you would take that back, and then, yeah, but the huge thing is, when you first said, Before, there was some there's a cultural conditioning that happens early on, like you said, where What we're learning to do is that the most important thing is to show up. It's not and to just be with and that's simple, showing up and keeping ourselves in relationship. Our our body will change and will Yeah? I mean, meditators know this, you know that's that thing like, yeah, if you stay with something, it's going to change. If they keep themselves in relationship, yeah. So there's, a definite of of emphasis on the simple being, power of being with,
Josh Lavine 1:08:29
yeah, this, um, this thing about reflecting back the word and taking the word back in to check with your felt sense. It's, it's fascinating to me. So I read some of gentlemen's book experiencing and the creation of meaning, which is a very dense philosophical book about two as he describes it, kind of layers of meaning. There's the symbolic realm of language, and like you, maybe even like mathematical symbols and the way we typically express ourselves through language, maybe that would be left brain kind of stuff, yeah, and then there's the level of direct experience. Yeah, it's like a lower level. And it's like, at any moment, you could pause yourself, and you might not be saying a word, but there is some meaning in you that you were experiencing directly through your sensation, you know. And if you sat with it, you could potentially articulate, like, this whole question of meaning exists before you put words to it. So where is it? Yes, you know, and it's like in the felt sense it's in the body. And I love this way you're saying, like, Stormy. It's like one part of you maybe doesn't like this part of you that, quote, unquote, feels stormy in your stomach, you know, and it provides you this word stormy. And so you describe this thing in your stomach as stormy, and then you're like, Okay, you feel. Something storming your chest. Then you take that as a focuser. Your job is then to take that phrase back and then just kind of see how that landed. And it's like, check in with that thing in your stomach. And it's like, Did it feel, did that thing feel well described by that word? You know?
Sandy Jahmi Burg 1:10:18
Yeah. So this is the resonance, and this is something, yeah, this is huge, because once a person develops this, I mean, I sometimes when, if I've worked for with someone for a while, and it takes a little bit for them to get that, I mean, there's like tears, because this is what I this is what we want. This makes you when you can understand and be able to, you know, consistently get resonances, so, yeah, a sense of rightness and, and to be able to distinguish, for instance, is the stormy coming from, yeah, something else. Because when you go and you actually sit there with the sensation in your stomach, if it does not feel seen, you will get a sense. It won't change. It doesn't feel acknowledged or seen. And so stormy isn't right. And stormy, you know, whether you attribute it, but essentially, it's a good idea, if you were is to welcome that there's some something gave you that word stormy. And so that's here in your space, yeah. So actually, so you can often end up with kind of, you know, a whole tribe and and so this is where I think the interspatial awareness helps too, because if somehow you give it a place, okay, there the stormy arrived, and it's here, but it's not. And then you go back to the your stomach, and you listen freshly, and see, right? It often does. It takes, like you said, that lower layer and and what I want to mention when you were mentioning, yeah, Jen, talking about the explicit so the power of what we're going for here is when something feels understood for how it is. Now that's what releases it to potentially take a step. Yeah, and so helping, helping something feel understood, if it's uncomfortable right now, we come from the perspective that that doesn't mean Yeah. It just needs to be acknowledged and understood for the dis. You know, what is this discomfort about? Yeah, and that alone can free it to change. And yes, yeah.
Josh Lavine 1:12:42
So can you say some words about what is hard about that? I mean, I experience, actually, I have something in my head I'll share, and then want to get your reaction, like, when so for immigrant people, random people listening, like, let's say you're working with a type three, and type threes are, like, generally speaking, pretty driven, and, like, a certain engine can start revving. That's like, I want to be, like, on my game, you know. And then there's another part that also wants to rest, or feels like constricted by that. But there's this, there's like two warring engines, you could say, you know, or part that's aware that it's like, yeah, I do want to be, I want to read this engine, but I don't want to do it in a way that disconnects it for myself. There's, there's all kinds of little complicated texture dynamics, but the kind of, the mere acknowledgement that I want to rest, that that's in me, can be really hard just, just to just to welcome it, you know, just to welcome, just to welcome into the space. And so, from a parts work, focusing kind of point of view we would, we would try to acknowledge that actually, that resistance is coming from another part that we would then also welcome, you know, and that there's these kind of two different agendas, yeah, you know. But that that that can be so hard, you know, it can be so hard to acknowledge the thing we don't want to acknowledge and focusing, I found to be a really a good way to kind of gently do it. But sometimes with people who are inexperienced with inner work or haven't really are kind of new at excavating their interior space. Don't quite get there, you know? It's like they can't quite acknowledge it, you know what I'm saying?
Sandy Jahmi Burg 1:14:52
Yeah, and that's okay. So that's one of the whole interesting things. Yeah, is so from Fauci. Facilitator, point of view acceptance, that you know that that's where they want to be right now and and that's okay, because then we can still kind of see, you know, from there, there still may be some, you know, things that they can be in relationship with. But essentially, I like to say it's like, it's kind of here right behind you and and so, for instance, if that's the one driven, you know it, it can, you know you're what you're bringing, then to your whole inner space is kind of a little bit of harshness of, you know, let's get keep let's keep going and, and that's the whole, you know, that's the whole choice, and that's the whole wonderful thing about focusing. No one's telling you what qualities to create within yourself. You are always in control of that. And what, what we do kind of do is you're following your body. So for instance, if not much is going to happen inside you until that moves out here, then, then you will find focusing isn't working for you, because not much will show up and communicate with you, right? Yeah, and, and so that can happen, and that's okay, you know, we don't want to tell anyone how to run their inner space. And I don't know, I don't know what comes I mean, yeah, yeah, I'm gonna look to you. It's this whole, it's like, how you know we all have those friends around us, maybe that we know, and it feels like they tell their story the same way, and they're and, and, yeah, at some point, essentially, their body will get their attention in the way that it can. And, you know, and that might, that might work, but it is kind of tragic, in a sense, if we, if we buy into this, and we start to go along, but this idea that our body is always communicating with us all the time, and that we're not actually showing up in kind of the mental role, and so that's the thing when you mentioned when there's two. So what's huge to me so so often, you know, if there's two and they have opposing views and and they're actually inhibiting each other, which is the majority of the connections over the corpus callosum of the average human brain, about 80% are inhibiting each other. So So you may run into this in yourself. What we want to do is we want to rewire where you are there and you you know you want each of them, not you know at each other that neural connection is there, but you want to rewire through you, and then whatever qualities you bring in that moment, how you treat this relationship, They get rewired, and they look at each other now, in this in this way, so, so the power of The qualities you bring and how you treat yourself, I
I don't know where a lot of us are kind of violent in there and and there's just, we just want to say there's, it can be different, and it's not easy, because it does take standing up to then Something that is used to being in control and yeah,
Josh Lavine 1:19:28
so I think maybe we'll come to a close soon, but I'm wondering if there's anything else that feels alive for you that you want to bring
Sandy Jahmi Burg 1:19:40
up that feels Pretty good to land on the quality of the relationship and that you're always a choice and and you know, the whole intention is, you know, to support each other in you. Yeah, feeling empowered to create the world within kind of that you might like to see out there.
Josh Lavine 1:20:16
So if people wanted to work with you or take class from you, where should they go?
Sandy Jahmi Burg 1:20:20
Where should they go? To learn focusing.org.
Josh Lavine 1:20:25
Okay, cool. I'll put that in the show notes. Too. Great. Okay, thank you. Thank you so much for doing this. What was this been like for
Sandy Jahmi Burg 1:20:37
you? Fun. I get to, I, yeah, yeah, we, we have to be present. I consider that a gift. Whenever I get to practice live interactions.
Josh Lavine 1:20:56
Cool. Well, thanks for doing this. I really appreciate it. And, yeah, I'll just, I actually just kind of, in closing, I'll just say, I think that my, my work with you, and my my learning, focusing through our classes and stuff, had a, like a, a profound, I mean, major, major impact on me and for people listening who also are following, kind of the development of my theory of the centers, kind of body, heart, minds focusing was like a key on locker in terms of my relationship with body intelligence, like what, what it even means, what you know, when we talk about the tell to the body, the intelligence of the body. So anyway, yeah, no, I've taken all four of your level classes, and it's a whole thing. So yeah, I really can't recommend focusing
Sandy Jahmi Burg 1:21:49
enough and you. So thank you, and I appreciate you. Um,
Josh Lavine 1:21:56
thanks, yeah, okay, thank you for joining me for today's discussion with my friend and teacher, Sandy Jami Berg. Once again, if you want to learn more about her, you can go to learn focusing.org you can take one of her classes, as I have done, or you can sign up to do an individual focusing session with her as your focusing companion. She is truly one of the most gifted practitioners of any inner work modality that I've ever met. Her gifts really shine in session when she is doing that thing that she did what you watched her do with me, she's quite amazing at it, so I highly recommend doing that. If you have enjoyed this podcast and have learned from it, then I would super appreciate if you subscribe to our channel at the Enneagram school on YouTube, if you have suggestions for who I should have as my next guest, or other kinds of modalities that I should look at, or any other comments that you'd like, please leave them in the comment section on YouTube, I read all the comments and sometimes respond there. If you're listening to this as a podcast on either Spotify or apple that you can leave up to a five star review. I super appreciate reviews. It's a very easy and zero cost way to support me and the show and the school, so please consider doing that. And finally, I have an announcement, which is that John lakovich and I are almost done with our intro Enneagram course. If you're interested to learn more about that, or curious about being one of the first people to know when it drops, please go to the Enneagram school.com and sign up for our email list. That's where I communicate all of those kinds of things. Direct your inbox. So once again, that's the Enneagram school.com and that's where you'll find announcements about our upcoming course, and also other announcements. For example, I am starting to do live coaching in front of an audience. So what I'll do is I'll take a volunteer for a person who knows their Enneagram type, and then I will do a live coaching session with them in front of a small audience on Zoom for the details and logistics of how to sign up for that, please check out the Enneagram school.com. Okay, thank you so much for joining me with this conversation, and I will see you next time you
