Josh Lavine 0:00
Hi. I'm Josh Lavine, and welcome to the first episode of what it's like to be you. This is a show where I interview people about their experience as their Enneagram type. I'm really curious about what is it like to be you on the inside. The show has a few purposes. The first is that it's an Enneagram show. It's just for your educational purposes. I'm hoping that it humanizes the Enneagram. A lot of times, the Enneagram can exist in students as a kind of disembodied concept that doesn't make its way back into where it really lives, which is inside people. So I'm hoping to reveal the way the Enneagram actually lives inside people through these conversations. Second is that this is a show about self reflection and introspection itself. I believe that these capacities of self awareness and introspection and inner work are existential to our species and our planets. Most conversations about today's challenges pertain to the outer world. For example, Where does money flow? Who has resources? How do we improve our schools? These kinds of things, and those are important, but equally important are the hidden questions about the inner world. For example, how do we become Kinder in a real way? How do we transcend our biases? How do we cultivate awareness of our habitual patterns and transcends who we have become just through sheer force of the momentum of growing up and developing our own defensive mechanisms and become the wise, compassionate, mature adults that we were always meant to be. So without further ado, welcome to the first episode.
Emeka Okorafor 1:35
What I bring to the Enneagram, what a lot of people appreciate about my approach is that, you know, I might be provocative and whatever else, but I'm gonna leave a mark on you. I'm gonna leave I'm because I'm usually only focusing on the parts that leave the biggest marks.
Josh Lavine 1:50
My first guest is a man named Emeka corophor. Emeka is the co founder of ennegrammer.com and a co host on the big hormone Enneagram podcast. He is a type eight and he is blunt and provocative in the style of type eights, and he is very self aware about using his type structure for a purpose, throwing his weight around, causing some trouble in the Enneagram world, as we'll see. I really respect Emeka a lot, and I hope that's clear in our conversation. I'm very excited for you to learn from him in this conversation. One final thing is that I think you'll experience Emeka to be a very powerful presence in the way that type eights can be. And eights have this way of just by being themselves, kind of galvanizing you, kind of lighting you up from the inside, like revving the engine. And I found myself experiencing that in this conversation. And I'm curious if you've experienced you experienced that too. So without further ado, I'm very excited to introduce you to my friend. All right, so for people who are just meeting Emeka my I'm really excited to talk to you about Enneagram stuff and also about you in particular, and my point of view about you and your content in the Annie Herbert universe is that it's it's really fresh and modern, a new take on the Enneagram that's really unearthing really new, fresh insights. And I would say that kind of part of your as I'm characterizing it, your kind of personal brand in the Enneagram world is, is being both very precise with your language and type distinctions, but also being very blunt with your way of being and expressing yourself Right, sometimes off putting, always thought provoking. Yes, yeah.
Unknown Speaker 3:42
Sum it up.
Josh Lavine 3:43
So was that fair? How do you feel about all that, that character? No, that's
Emeka Okorafor 3:47
great. That's a that's a generous introduction.
Josh Lavine 3:52
Can you just tell us, like, take us on the journey, like any Graham origin story. How did you discover it? How do you know your type? Oh, and by the way, any gram, uh, Emma is a type eight, yes, self identified, that's
Emeka Okorafor 4:04
important to know. Yeah, that's important. Yeah,
Josh Lavine 4:08
type eight. And to get really specific about it, sexual self pres, type eight with a seven wing. Try type 854, correct. That's
Emeka Okorafor 4:18
it. Yes, yeah. Okay, so, so, yeah. I mean my origin story, yeah, go ahead. So, yeah, I got into the Enneagram, um, kind of the Enneagram kind of was bunched into typology, like, if anyone's been online searching for MBTI information, you inevitably run into people who are also interested in Enneagram, or, you know, how people have on their signature, they'll have their MBTI type, and then they'll have their Enneagram type. So at some point I'd ran into them like, What the hell are these symbols and numbers? I think I'd seen somebody who'd posted five wing four, sexual self, you know, SX, slash SP, and I'm like, what does that mean? So of course, that. To lead you down a rabbit hole. So I initially thought that the Enneagram was just, you know, another typology or inner work or spirituality system to figure out. I've been, you know, getting into so many of these my entire life. And I guess to go back, why am I interested in this stuff? I think I grew up looking at my parents, I'm a sexual type, and so I think there's a way that I'm always tracking romantic partnerships to sort of understand why people get and stay together. And my parents were always contentious, like they always fought all the time. And I remember thinking to myself, I'm going to grow up and and I'm not gonna be in a relationship like that. And, you know, I also wanted to try to understand what it was about certain people that gelled together, and why certain people just never worked. And so that sort of led me into the study of personality, or any of these like psychological systems that could help explain why people were the way they were. They were. So I think one of my first books that I ever bought for myself was like a birth order book, which eventually led to studying MBTI, anything that was like, helped me explain why the fuck do people do what they do. So that's been kind of like a hobby I never took seriously like, and so I just tend to just collect this information. And so, you know, people talk about what they normally do, like on a Saturday morning, when they don't have to do anything. I'm online, researching this kind of stuff. And so I that is eventually what led me to the Enneagram. But the reason the Enneagram stuck and hooked me to such a strong degree is the fantasy that I always had with typologies, that this stuff is useless to me. You know, these ideas about people are great and are interesting, but if I can't apply it in a way that if, if I walk into a room or an interview or any sort of engagement with someone that I want to influence or understand, this information isn't useful to me if I can't immediately see it at work. So anything I would research or get interested in, I needed to see it. It needed to be alive, of course, you know, knowing that my type is eight, understanding like, has to be real. It has to be an immediate thing for me, in order for me to, you know, really grab onto it. And so back, back then, this was about 2006 for 2005 online, there was, I want to give a shout out to, you know, the person who introduced me to the Enneagram, like, not introduced me to the Enneagram, but the first website that I found, like Catherine farvis, stuff at the time was the first thing that I came across. And the only reason I mentioned that is because she was one of the few people who was doing typing based on watching people. And I'd never encountered that before, but this is sort of like match the thing that I was trying to do on my own, which is, Can I sit here and watch people and figure out what's going on with their type? And so she was doing this type the Oscars thing on her Facebook page back then, and I thought that was really interesting and strange. And that sort of lit a light bulb in my head that is that possible? Like, you know, you sometimes just watch people, and for me, anyways, just that person's probably like this, that sort of people intuition, where you're sizing people up with something that I was immediately or something I'd always been trying to do my whole life. And so this find that that there was a personality system that had implications. The way people were presenting in real time was like the biggest deal. And so that that began like a personal obsession to learn how to do this. It wasn't like she was teaching how to do that at the time. There wasn't any real courses about that. I just grabbed onto it and started, you know, that's the way I started learning the Enneagram. I did that. I started doing that before, you know, I started even really studying descriptions, because to me, it's like, if it doesn't matter what the description says, If I can't see it happening in real time, it doesn't matter. And so I started with my type I need to figure out what I am, because I know there are some people in my life that I feel are probably similar to me. If I can figure out myself first, then I can work backwards from there. And so I started sort of building an internal map of understanding based on my own understanding my own typing. So I started learning Enneagram by typing myself, trying to figure out how to get figure out what my type is accurately, and to do that thoroughly. It took years because I was just doing it by trial and error. It's like, well, maybe I'm a seven and so let me go find out what seven is. Let me find out specifically, even more specifically, what seven is. And if I'm, if I am a seven, you know, just sort of by process of elimination, could I be a seven or an eight? And so that, could I be this? Or that was the my method of well, let me go read about. That I didn't read an Enneagram book from beginning to end, I was reading an Enneagram book, or Enneagram books based on questions that I needed to answer. So if, like, what's the difference between a seven or an eight? Well, oh, there's a thing about, like, the the Enneagram has centers, seven is actually a head type, and, you know, an eight is a body type. Well, you know, just asking those questions. And so before I came across any Enneagram group or hooked up with John or David, I spent a good six, seven years on my own just playing around with these ideas and at the same time practicing how to recognize those types. And eventually, I thought I was initially a seven, because I'm such a fun guy, but, but, you know, I think I realized that I do. I think I started to, the more I got deeper into it, I started to see that, yeah, I am a body type. Instead, in the the structures of types. There's a lot more nuance to, you know, seeing how seven and eight could be similar. On the surface, there's a lot of differences. The deeper you get. And so the more I started to, you know, try to understand, okay, what can how can you make the distinction between seven or eight? That's how I started to learn that the Enneagram has a structure. And all this confusion, all these confusing things that I was, you know, confusing information that I was relying on to mistype myself. I had to go see deeper than that. And so that's why, that's why the Enneagram stuck, because I could never get to the bottom. There was always more nuance. And the more nuance I got, the more the types became distinct worlds, and I would just get more and more amazed. And not only that, but the implications on trying to pick up how these types would present themselves in real people, was the other piece of it that was feeding into my understanding of the types. And you know, also part of it, maybe some people get into the Enneagram, and they look at the the information that's already available and try to base their understanding based on that. For me, I mean, this is kind of like an arrogant ape perspective is like, if I can't, if it's not real. For me, it's not real. It has to be something that matches my experience. I don't care if it's written in a book, if I can't, you know, see it in practice, then what's the point? So I was building my own understanding, and so based on that, I couldn't see myself as an eight based on the descriptions that were available, I had to go many levels deeper into seeing like these types are not just descriptions. They're type structures. And once you start to look at it, then it's a whole much bigger deal personality system. It's way beyond a personality system like it's a really nuanced map of consciousness, more so than anything I've ever, you know come across. And the reason that I'm still, you know, passionate and this is stuck, is because this is bigger than anything I could have ever imagined is deeper than I've never I haven't even gotten close to the bottom, and so every single year, I'm still being blown away by what this is uncovering, and also as a self development and inner work tool, this has changed my life. You know, it's changed everything about the way I see the
Josh Lavine 13:19
world. Wow, that was a thank you for all that. I was super rich, and you know this, I mean, I'm also a massive Enneagram geek, and so I could, there's so many directions to go with this, but what I'd love to generally hone in on, just for this particular video and interview, is what it's like to be you, and particularly what it's like to be eight. And there's a lot in what you just said that could be mined from, from Yes. And so one of the things I'm, I was just keying into when you were describing your whole Enneagram journey, was it has to be real. If it's not, it's just out there, abstract real for me. Yeah. So what does it mean for you to for something to be real?
Emeka Okorafor 13:59
Well, you know, trying to understand myself as an aid being a certain type, it's easy to take for granted certain things about yourself. It took understanding the Enneagram to see that there's so many different ways of being that are so that are very valid compared to mine, but are incredibly different. And so I take it for granted that I can generally make things happen. I can generally go and do things and create things and and even though I'm super geeky and nerdy about, you know, things that are abstract, for me, it's like it's what is actionable about this, because the eight, the eight personality, is like this disconnection from like the it's the essential quality of power. And so the personality tries to create this sense of aliveness and through immediacy. And so, you know, things are real if. They're immediate, if they're now, if they're sort of like, there's this immediate kind of charge to it. And every eight, regardless of their instincts, are looking for that sense of aliveness, immediacy. And so for the a personality, what they're looking for is the thing that has the biggest impact. And so which means that you can a lot of times end up discounting things that are smaller, because that's what the eight personality is doing to itself. And so what I bring to the Enneagram, what a lot of people appreciate about my approach, is that, you know, I might be provocative and whatever else, but I'm going to leave a mark on you. I'm going to leave I'm because I'm usually only focusing on the parts that leave the biggest marks. So it's like, if you listen to me talk for five minutes, I want there to be a before and an after, and that's because I'm doing my personality is doing that for me, like I'm only paying attention to the stuff that leaves a mark on me. And so my personality is always shining a light on this is the part of the Enneagram that can change your life. And so the downside of that is, you know, trying to make that happen for people like I'm trying to make a life changing before after happen. And so, you know, I guess what I've learned is that aliveness is already there. And there's this, there's a sense that I'm always responsible to bring this sense of aliveness of, you know, there's a before and after. It's almost like an ignition switch. It's like, where's the ignition in this idea, or in this, you know? And to me, typing is like, it's a powerful thing, and the reason people get so upset about typing is that it really eliminates the bullshit. Because if I say that, we can look at a type on paper and say, you know this, this is this description for seven or eight or four or five, and people can identify with it and play all types of games about what that might mean for them. But if you're saying that type is real, that it's happening moment to moment, and that you can take a snapshot of it with the video or a collage, that all of a sudden means that you It's you can't bullshit that. So so people have to face, come face to face with the reality of what they're up to. And it makes inner work a really powerful thing, but it also destroys delusions, and delusions are really comfortable. So if you're the messenger that tells people that they're you know, their clothes are ugly, or the thing that they've been telling themselves about who they are is bullshit, people don't want to hear that, and so, but it creates an environment where people who are really serious about change, and in a work, you know, I think that's what makes our group so great, is, yeah, people get really upset, but the people who stick around are the the ones that are really serious about the Enneagram and making Changes in a real way, because I think the Enneagram can suffer from what generally happens in typology, communities of just people delusionally assigning certain traits and types to themselves just to make themselves feel better, or to form a sense of community, or any of those things. But if you do want to change, if you do want to work on yourself. If you do want to develop you're going to have to go and face some difficult things. And I want to force people, and that language force people to look at these types are addressing difficult things, difficult truths. And if you're having a hard time facing the possibility that you're not the type that you think you are, wait till you find out what your actual type is like. The that journey is a difficult road, and so that's part of, you know, my mission is to sort of get people ready for, you know, get people to face the reality of inner work and their type. This is some hard shit. This is really challenging, and it can be really life changing. But if you can't get through the initial gauntlet of potentially realizing that what you thought about a type is totally wrong, you're in for huge you know, like you're like, it's going to be tough, because part of inner work is realizing that you've been lying and bullshitting yourself, and you're going to have to make some changes, some painful changes, about the way you live and about you know, addressing some of your personality, your personality, shadows and all those things are very difficult to do and and so I think part of my what my personality does, is try to bring that realness, and it's, in a sense, bringing that negativity, those negative, difficult truths, you know, you know, getting people exercises to get used to facing that, to get used to looking at the parts that suck about themselves, right?
Josh Lavine 19:57
How do you experience your eightness? Right? Now? Know, Like, right in this moment,
Emeka Okorafor 20:03
I just feel, yeah, I feel amped. I mean, when I'm excited, when I'm into something, it feels like I drank coffee. It feels like, you know, my personality, I It's interesting watching other eights, because it's easier to see it, because I look at other eights and I'm like, man, they're, they're really over the top, you know, they're really intense, and they're really like, and I'm like, Am I like that? So it's really hard to see, it's really hard to see your scar or, or just like, you know, I see other eights. And I was like, God, damn, that person is aggressive. So I know that I'm like that, but it's hard to see it, because, I mean, I deal with myself every day. You know, when people sometimes might say that I'm controlling, it, it really pisses me off, because I don't experience myself as controlling, but I can see, you know, watching other aids, it's easy to see like there's no room, like there's, it's the a personality can feel alienating, because it feels like there's only several avenues that you can get in with this person, like it's gonna be, it's, it's controlling and not the sense that they're telling you What to do. It's controlling, in a sense that there are this personality is so strong in a certain direction and so seemingly self assured that it doesn't feel like there's much wiggle room. And I think it's also understanding that the majority of people are attachment types. You know that majority people are attachment types of so what they're looking for from
Josh Lavine 21:43
real quick. So attachment types are types three and six and nine, just Yes,
Emeka Okorafor 21:49
yes. You know, some people might consider this controversial to say, but based on the experience that I've had with typing, I really think that at least 80% of the population, 70 at least 75% that would be the most conservative I could go. Because even just, you know, in our typing experience with any grammar, it's over 90% which is shocking, because I didn't, I didn't, I mean, come into the Enneagram expecting that, but it makes sense if you think about how the way, the way the world functions, and how people functions, in order for the species to like people, to reproduce as much as they do like you need a sense of inherent psychological attachment to other people, which is what attachment does. But you know, the types that are not attachment types, in some ways, are not doing that at all, which, if you look at it in the grand scheme, it's it really, it's really weird, and it stands out. So for eight it's a gut type who is so set on their own kind of way, unconsciously, and they don't even realize it, that I think other people might experience that as man, this person already knows what they want, and they don't need anything. Energetically, they they're pretty strong, so it doesn't really give you much room to get in there. And so it feels alienating. And so I see that in other eights, and I'm sure that I give up that energy for multiple reasons, you know, for social blind, also, you know, adds to that. And also the five and four fixes it. There's not a lot of my personality that makes me feel like I'm really with people. You know, I'm interesting, and I can really pay attention to people, but it's there's a sense of, you know, the a personality can feel alienating to the average person.
Josh Lavine 23:34
Do you feel that alienation on the inside
Emeka Okorafor 23:38
the I one thing, I Okay, one way to put this, because I hadn't experienced this past year, because I got into a relationship with the sexual six in 2021 and and I had the first time that I had this experience. Maybe I've experienced this mildly before, where something good was happening. I was in a relationship with someone I love. I'm in a relationship with someone I love and and it doesn't feel like I could even accept that that was happening. So what I was experiencing was a separation where I was almost like having an out of body, out of out of body experience, where if I was in a situation where something good was happening, it felt like I was watching someone else have that experience and or I was like, if I'm even I feel separate from even sometimes what's happening for me, which can be a reaction to something good, but also a reaction to something terrible that's happening, where I feel like it can't touch me. And that's something that, you know, eights can not just eights, but, you know, eights, fives and you like, can feel separate from their own experience, where it's like, even not, it doesn't feel like what's happening can touch me. But. And so there's a sense of a wall, yeah, with a lot of eights that, you know, I can see with myself at this point, but that's one way that it's shown up in my life, where, in that, in this relationship, I've had moments where I felt separate from what was happening, where I it didn't even feel like it was me. A
Josh Lavine 25:18
leading question on that. But feel free to take it however you want. So this, this kind of, what you're describing, is almost a it feels like a dissociation or like having an experience, but it's like I'm watching myself have the experience. Yes, which is a kind of thing that we hear a lot when we talk about the nine, but the eight also experiences this, and there's their sort of attempted solution at it is, well, if I can just go harder at this thing, then I'll make myself feel alive. I'll bring myself back to the moment. Is that, is that, do you agree with my language, or would you put it differently?
Emeka Okorafor 25:53
Absolutely, I credit you know John for introducing that sense of dissociation. Is not only a nine thing, but also an eighth thing. But it's dissociation through immediacy and but it's also kind of dissociation I would add to that, that there's a dissociation where I feel cut off, you know, so I can dissociate by just getting on a roll, impulsive kind of doing the next thing on the table where I'm not even really present to what's happening, where I just, you know, there's a there's, yeah, yeah, my own momentum. I can get higher, my own momentum, and but there's, you know, I don't want to discount that, because there is a real intelligence to that sort of eight ish momentum. And as an assertive type, I'm sure you can relate on some level where there's a intelligence when you're going, when you know this is what needs to happen next, and I need to do that. But there's a way that you know, even as a sexual eight, that I've been in situations where I was doing creating the chemistry, or creating the sweeping her off her feet, whatever thing that I do before I'm even sure if I'm into it, whereas, like, I can, you know, there's maybe a small spark, there's a small spark, and there's a small you know, I mean, because I have to be hooked by something, but I can take a little bit of a hook and just create a Whole world around it before I'm even sure that it's the thing I should be doing. So I can go to zero to, you know, 60, very quickly on something that feels like, you know, there's a small spark, and I'm just like, Dude, you know what I mean. So I'm seeing that the a personality can just overdo action as a way to dissociate, or it can just do overdo. You know, the line to five, where I'm just like, nothing touches me. There's, you know, at certain points where it feels like I'm either doing one or the other, where it's like I'm completely cut off. There the feeling, the way I've described it, is that I can feel that maybe something that I was engaging with all of a sudden isn't a completely other planet like this thing couldn't even possibly touch me like. So there's a way that I can dissociate, by completely cutting myself off from something, or by just overdoing, you know, getting into that momentum flow where I'm not even really there,
Josh Lavine 28:19
right, right? So, what is inner work like for you? Like, what, what? What do you focus on within our work? And how does it, how does it go? And, so,
Emeka Okorafor 28:32
okay, yeah, what's okay. So, one of the hardest things, you know, I think the first thing I had to realize, it's kind of like getting disgusted with your own type, like, you know, seeing it for what it is that I'm not really, you know, what I've just noted said that there's an aspect of not really being there when you're just doing the next thing, or you feel cut off from things. And so, you know, eights are hard last and I recognize that I felt like, you know, when I was a lot younger, I was just a much harsher person, you know, hard to believe, but I was a much, you know. And I think my personality, those who knew me in my late 20s, you know, my best friend would say the same thing, that I've changed a lot, softened up quite a bit. And so one of the first things that I realized that my dad is an eight, and even growing up, he's a social eight, very hardened, you know, social eight, wing nine, and I knew intuitively, I didn't want to turn out like my dad. And that's also one of the things that, you know, got me into the Enneagram, because my dad was, like, really, really tough. And so it's interesting that I, you know, discovered what my type was, and I'm the same type as my dad and and so it just kind of hit home that in a lot of ways, I did become like him in just like, super harsh. I mean, it's, it's hard not to when you grow up with someone like that. You grew up in a family that kind of has, you know, patterns itself after your dad. Personality, so everyone's tough, and just recognizing that I didn't need to emphasize that at all, like, I already have a personality that's, you know, really hard edged in a lot of ways, and that I needed, I there was no point in my life where I ever needed to push because it's already going to happen. So that was kind of like, the initial message is, like, don't become a caricature of this personality type, like, There's nothing good about overdoing eightness And and so that was the first kind of step, like seeing the personality do its thing. I already had plenty of examples in my own family where I was like, Man, that's that's what it's going to cost me later in life. If I double down on eight is you're cut off from everybody, even though, like, aids can be really at the center of the action. There's a way that, because eights are pushing out so much that their inner world is so small, like, because there's their inner circle of who they can really be themselves with and really feel let people in, that's a small world. And so I could see that, and I was like, I don't want to end up like that in 1020, years, where, because I have such hardened boundaries, even though I might have a large impact on so many people, like the people who actually can get to know me and really see me very small and and so I think, like, it was kind of like, How do I get in touch with my heart? And there's no easy answer to this. It's not like I've I have any, like, ready made answers for how I've been able to do this, but I will say that just the fact that I've been working with the Enneagram, one thing that it has done is that it's allowed me to have compassion that I didn't have before, just recognizing that there are eight other types that are just as equally valid as mine. I mean, when I was a lot younger, I would just say people are fucking stupid. I mean, they're just too slow and too, you know, dumb, you know, just all those because I just didn't understand where people were coming from. Like, why the fuck would you do this? Why would you react this way? But now understanding that they're all these valid ways. I mean, I might still have these reactions, but I know that they're coming from valid places. So I will say that the Enneagram has allowed me to have compassion that I didn't have before, because it's expanded, you know, it's helped me understand human beings. And you know, for eights, there's a way that they only see what they know, and they're going to make it happen. And so if the eight doesn't understand the complexities of what humans are capable of, it's either you're getting stuff done or you making things happen, either you're helping them do whatever it is that they're doing, or you're in a way. So there's no it can be kind of like real black and white in terms of, either you're helping things expand and grow, or you're in, you know, your your problem to be eliminated. And so I think, you know, that's one aspect of, you know, doing inner work, it helped me. But I also think I've, yeah, this system has just forced me to slow down in so many ways, and to realize that banging my head against the wall isn't working, and to allow things to happen. That's another huge realization for myself is, you know, romantically, there's a sense that everything's up to me, not just romantically, just in general, everything's up to me, like I'm responsible to keep things together, I'm responsible to make the right things happen and to realize that, you know, I'm not, you know, I'm not responsible to, you know, I don't have to make everything happen. And things, things are already happening. There are things that are set in motion. So they can be kind of like a god complex with eight in a sense that this is someone who thinks that they have to influence every aspect of their existence, or that everything that happens in their life happened because of their influence. So that can be, you know, that can be. I had to grow in in order for me to grow, I had to realize that there were things that were happening that were way beyond my influence, that were good for me, and I had to let things happen to me, you know, like, yeah, the way that I met my partner, you know, I would have never seen it like for me, there's a sense of I'm going to orchestrate my own reality. And I did not orchestrate this. This is something I had to say yes to. And so that's that's been a huge shift for me. And it's not like I have like, Oh, I've been doing these meditation practices. I've done breath work a couple times. That's been a big deal. But in terms of actual growth, it's been some, a few mindset shifts that I've had to make along the way to like, Yo, you need to fucking let go. You need to stop trying to do everything, because it's not all up to you.
Josh Lavine 34:40
Yeah, yeah. And what's terrifying about that?
Emeka Okorafor 34:46
Or, well, okay,
Josh Lavine 34:47
yeah, go ahead.
Emeka Okorafor 34:49
You get what's terrifying about that. Well, I mean, I have, I still struggle with boundaries in the sense that the sense of violation that i. I allowed something into my world that I did not vet or, yeah, you know, like, it's, I can't even put words to how, like, how violently angry I get if something comes into my world that I didn't, you know. So there's this, there's still some hot spots there, yeah, uh, eights are really, you know, big about boundaries, and you know that sense of who is in my world and and so that's it's a big deal, and it's terrifying in the sense that I could be violated by some outside element that I didn't vet, you know. So there's still, that's still something I struggle with, in the sense that I still don't feel comfortable with that I like, you know, like there's a sense of the people in my life were people I intentionally chose to be around, you know. And so there's that sense of, there's an inner circle of, and there's a box. If you're in that box, you matter if you're not in that box, you know, fuck you, until you're someone who's important. So the fact that maybe someone could randomly show up in that box is like, wait, you know, like, I get, you know, I still get violently angry about that. But you know, something that I'm realizing it's ridiculous. You know, if I actually, that's the way my personality is set up. But if I actually, you know, it's there is kind of like maybe some childhood wound there. I mean, there's my type structure, but I had a type eight dad and a type two mom. These are very strong personalities, highly intrusive individual, right? Say what you know, type a sister and a type eight sister. So I mean, my family, I didn't realize until, you know, grow up and you you just take it for granted that you know, you don't realize that you grew up a certain way, and there's certain norms that you grew up with. So the idea of trusting people that you're close to, it's like in my family, you always had to have, you have your guard up, because, I mean, either getting roasted or taken advantage of, it's kind of like just the general family culture. So you just don't think it's a big deal. But even my type two mom was, was, he's like, you just have to be careful. And, you know, my dad was just, so, yeah, there's a sense of, like, boundaries are a huge deal, not just because I'm an eight but just because of, you know, the way I grew up. So there's, you know, the wall is really strong with me. And just, you know, even just being able to trust people is, is tough. It's, yeah, that's something that I have a huge walls, you know, put it to put it mildly, right,
Josh Lavine 37:38
right? And then, can you tie that into one, one word that is very often associated with AIDS. That I really like is the word protective. How do you how do you relate to that?
Emeka Okorafor 37:49
So one of the things that I did not, I didn't identify with, you know, in the initial eight descriptions that I saw was like, Oh, the protector of the underdog. And, yeah, there is a protective element, but it's more,
Unknown Speaker 38:04
yeah, right, that's
Emeka Okorafor 38:05
the part that that's that doesn't I mean, there are some social aids out there who would identify with that, yeah. But if, if they're really, that might be the way they sell it to you, though. But if they're really being honest, they're protective of their own psychological, you know, territory. It's kind of like i My world is what I'm protecting. So it's more. I did a shift talk where I talked about AIDS, and one of the things I said is, if we're close, let's say you're one of my close friends. I'm protective of you as much as it means that you, if someone could touch you, they can touch me, I would never, ever let anyone on this planet think that they could even get one within one degree of, you know, of one degree of me. There's no way. Like, if you are going like people should know that one, they can't fuck with me. You can't fuck with me at all two if you fuck with one of my friends, like it's that same box, you should be afraid to fuck with me or anyone that's close to me that's sort of like you can't touch me, because if you can get close enough to someone I'm close with, you pretty much touched me. And so eights are protective of themselves. I mean, I don't know if most aides would would be honest enough to say that, but it's about like the sense of maintaining a separation and an untouchableness, which means, like, my family is not someone you can touch. You know, the people that are one degree of separation from Me you can't touch. Like, that's that sense of, if you get into my world is because I allowed it, not because you thought you could violate me or anyone that's close to me. So protective I'm protective of, you know, the things that I'm involved with, things that I'm passionate about. Like, you know, if anybody in the group has some negative shit to say about the podcast. I'm, I'm breathing down there, you know, I'm down there fucking neck, you know, like you like you're not going to talk about Nancy, you're not going to talk about John, you're not going to talk shit about David in my box. What other people say outside of that? That's their business. But, yeah, you know, there's this sense of with eights of, I mean, this is a crude example, but, you know, like tigers in the jungle, they just mark out a certain territory, and they just parole the borders to make sure that other tigers don't, don't go into their territory. And they just, they fight about that. I think bears do the same thing where it's like, if I have this territory, then this is where I can hunt and this is where I can mate. But if I go into somebody else's territory, then I might have to deal with them, or maybe you're trying to take their territory. So I think what AIDS is like, it's that sense of, here's my box, and they can expand that box, and that's part of what happens. Is my box can start out small, and that box gets bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger until, you know, left unchecked, you get what you have where most, if not all, dictators have been, type eight. That's what type A personality, unchecked as it expands, just ends up doing. And I want to say this, what ends up happening is a type A personality represents, like the protective function for people, and from a very young age. I mean, I guess if you want to understand what it's like to be me, I didn't before I knew anything about the Enneagram as a small boy, other kids were coming to me because I was someone that they knew would get results for them that no one else would like. You know, how do you get an A on this test? I didn't have any problem giving kid other kids like the right answers, shit like that, or I want to get somebody beat up, or, you know, they would come to me for certain things like that. And so I had a reputation for someone who could get things done, which also meant, I don't know, like, kindergarten age, yeah?
Josh Lavine 41:53
Just like to bring this up. So important, understand, it's like, you'll, it's like, you, you don't
Emeka Okorafor 41:59
choose the flavor. You don't choose. No, no, yeah, this is just what you came up with in Yeah, you know, I've always said that I've always felt like an adult in the kid's body. I felt like I just knew things that other kids didn't understand, about consequences, about intimidation, like nobody teaches you that you just sort of like instinctually know how to do these things. And so, you know, like I had one example as a very young kid where somebody was messing with my sister. And I had enough kids who had, I'd done things for that I could go to them and say, I need you to, you know, I'm here to collect on my favor. And so I got four of the boys and go found this kid who was messing with my sister, and we gave him the beating of a lifetime. And, you know, word gets out that this happened. I'm not going to get into the details of what, how bad of a beating I give gave this kid, but word gets out, and people just know, do not ever mess with Emma, cuz Emma or his sister, and that's at a very young age, I mean. And so there's an understanding of leverage with the aid personality, in the sense that I want to stay separate from people, but I also want people to have a reason to come to me. And so aids are the kind of personality that would be minding their own business in their own little box, just working on whatever they're working on, but they're creating a reason for other people to deal with them. I don't want to get into the whole politics of what's going on right now over in Russia, but, you know, the only reason, like Russia has leverage is because they, they had access to oil, and Putin, put himself in a position where other world countries have to deal with him otherwise. You know, he's a third thing. Yeah, exactly. So it's, it's eights on some level, as rejection types are putting themselves in a position where they don't need, you know, anything from anyone, but people need things from them, and so they're overdoing the protection function. And that was there from a very young age, and I didn't even realize I was doing that. But it's just, yeah, I've always had kids around me that I'm that rely on me for something that I'm not relying on for anything, right?
Josh Lavine 44:09
Yeah, um, I'm really, I'm glad you brought that up. Um, there's one thing I wanted to just kind of highlight for people who've never met you before, who are experiencing it for the first time, is this sense of when you were describing the eight and you were talking about how, like, if aids are protective of themselves, and if they're, you know, some aids, maybe social aids, wouldn't agree. They would. They have a sense of protecting a larger group of people, or something like that. And that's but the phrase you used was something like, if they got really honest with themselves, what they're really protecting their own psychological territory. I just wanted to point out, like, this is the kind of thing that you say that is also that is provocative, you know, and it's like, it's like, you know, like, I can imagine an a listening to that and being like, what the fuck like. Hold on, you know. You. So I just want, I'm curious. I just want to put my finger on that dynamic. And also, I'm curious to hear you talk about, like, and I know you mentioned this a little bit, but like, why be, why be blunt or shocking, or, or, or, um, put these kinds of truths on the table.
Emeka Okorafor 45:17
Well, one thing I want to say is, I didn't even realize that I was being shocking or blunt or provocative. Okay, I had to, I had to learn that that was, you know, because when I, when I left for college, like, I mean, just imagine, just imagine if you were you, you didn't know that you were a lion of some sort. You grew up in a lion's den, and you went out into the world, and you just thought you just thought you were just like everyone else, and you start dealing with them, playing around with other people, but you don't realize that people don't talk the way you do. And you didn't, you didn't grow up. You know, if you've ever seen like a pride of lions, the way that they communicate, it's really rough. It's really, I mean, they basically like, bite and fight each other, until some, you know, the other lion puts up some kind of boundary. So I grew up in a family like that that had a pretty strong eight ish, you know, personality overlay. And it wasn't until I went to college that I realized that people don't talk to people the way my family does. I mean, if you just see us interact, it seems like everyone's fighting or being really loud and aggressive or and it's not necessarily even a cultural thing or anything like that, because there are plenty of other similar families that are just have different personalities. I've had come to realize, like, yeah, this a lot of assertive types in my family. A lot of eight personality a lot of eight fixation stuff going on here. And so I had to learn that I can't talk to the people. I can't talk to people the way, you know, I talked to my family so but even still, I had to recognize, I don't think I even realized how provocative, you know, I'm being. I don't even, I don't even think I view myself as provocative as other people view myself. Because, yeah, I think most eights won't see that most states won't recognize that they're really provocative and they're really, you know, forcing people to look at, you know, negative truths in ways that are uncomfortable. But that's part of the sort of like that ignition thing. They don't realize that they're starting fires everywhere. And
Josh Lavine 47:18
also, there's one nuance that's, I feel like important to add in this, in the context of you Emeka, is also that your sexual dominant and social blind, which creates, there you go, yeah, has a
Emeka Okorafor 47:29
right and so, like, if I was my dad is a social self, Pres eight, wing nine, and and so he's a Little bit more diplomatic, but he's still a blunt person. I think if you look at the range of different eights, I mean, you can go from eights that are a little colder, like, you know, I don't want to get too much into Putin's typing, but we've got him as an eight, wing, 9853, and so he's really icy, but, you know, they're still really blunt personality, and really, can be really provocative, and that personality is going to be provocative as a reactive type. But I just don't, I don't think reactive types realize how provocative they're being and and so it's just kind of like this is the the baseline, and it's funny how this shows up, and people doing typing videos, and the eights will get on there and just be talking about how terrible of a person they are, or, you know, just casually, you know, saying things that people will be like, Oh my God, you know, but it's harder to see in yourself. It's easier for me to see it in other eights. It's easier to see, oh, wow, this is a really aggressive person. Yeah, sometimes I don't see it at all. Sometimes I don't see it at all, because I think that's just a person being normal. Yeah, and I don't see that they're, you know, just being I want to know what's going on. I want to know what people really think. And so I don't think I realize how much I'm controlling. My personality is controlling, or my personality is pushing people into certain, you know, psychological corners and things like that. I don't realize that that's
Josh Lavine 49:04
happening. I have, let's see, a couple other questions. One thing, actually, that is so funny to me about this particular topic is and to hear you say, you know, I don't really think of myself even as that provocative person from the inside, like you don't experience yourself as being provocative, yeah. Um, but also me as a social type, I'm thinking to myself, but also, wait a minute, be but you also created the not a four Instagram account, which,
Emeka Okorafor 49:30
okay, okay, okay, let me put it this way, like
Josh Lavine 49:33
I actually can. Can you just give some con what is not a four? Okay?
Emeka Okorafor 49:38
Like I did not originate, I did not originate the movement. To me before, way before my time. David, Dave, I want to give credit to where credit's due. David, back in the day, with the Enneagram Institute discussion boards, was one of the he's an OG. He's been at this for over three decades, and so, yeah. Right? He was one of the ones that, because most people come into the Enneagram and mistypes for. So he was one of the ones on those forums. Who would, you know, be providing long distinctions about why, why certain celebrities and certain people were incorrectly types for. And so once we all met on Enneagram Facebook, that continued when we started our group, because, I mean, everyone mistypes us for, like, in MBTI communities, it's INFJ like, there's all these pet types that people tend to mistype as. But I recognized that this is a problem, but it is also a hook that you know, what we really wanted people to do is to take the Enneagram seriously, to look deeper than what was there. And the only reason that people were mistyping is four was because of really bad information, and I needed to find something, a hook that was impossible to ignore, that would get under someone's skin and force them to go back and reevaluate, go back and, like in and a lot of, you know, especially attachment types, kind of just latch on to whatever is presented. And so this would some this was something that needed to be unforgettable, that would force somebody to go, go back and read some more books. Maybe you should reconsider if you are the type you think you are. But it also kind of, you needed something like that to get people prepared for the gauntlet of typing, because typing is so upsetting, because nine times out of 10 people are not the type they think they are. And so, you know, the the not a fourth thing, you know, it's just a clever hashtag, but it was also kind of, I'm looking at the landscape of the Enneagram, and I'm trying to bring people along in the sort of path that I've been on, which is, you're gonna have to look deeper at this stuff. Like the Enneagram is so rich, and you're not gonna get it from the, you know, quick descriptions. The reasons people are mistyping is for is they're just going based on these quick descriptions. And so yes, there is intentional provocative, you know, provocative things that I do that are intentional for a purpose. I know that I'm aware that I'm a provocative person. I fuck with people all the time, but I don't think I'm as provocative as other people might experience me as provocative because I'm like that all the time. But, yeah, I you know, you've been around me. I do mess around with people non stop. It's fun, but, you know, like, it just part of my personality. And I think most aids are on some level, don't think it's that big of a deal as much as other people might think, yeah,
Josh Lavine 52:36
yeah. Okay, let's talk about just typing for a little bit, and then we'll probably come to a close pretty soon. But okay, one of the things that I just think that any grammar in the Enneagram or universe is so interesting and and so intelligent, and I'm my my phrasing for it is, they're, they're reverent to the right things, and irreverence to everything else, absolutely and what I mean by that is that there's a way that you and the Enneagram or team are taking really seriously as a kind of like you hold so sacredly and preciously, like the truth that the Enneagram is revealing about the authentic nature of the psyche, right? And and the way that you kind of get there is, is you occupy sort of in the whole Enneagram universe, not any grammar universe, the Enneagram world a, I think, a really interesting and important place in the ecosystem. And one of the things that you have sort of distinguished your or any grammar from the Enneagram world. Or one of the ways that you distinguish yourself is that any grammar actually provides typing services where you make unequivocal evaluations of people, and you say, this is your type, and here is your instinctual stack, your tri Type Wing, you give the whole thing. In fact, it even just came out with a product, just to let people know, called Apex typing, which is you and the enneagrammer folks actually watch a video submission of someone and then do live commentary on that submission. Do I have that,
Emeka Okorafor 54:15
right? Yes, it's called Apex commentaries. But yes, yes, okay, okay, cool.
Josh Lavine 54:20
And also, there's a whole thing about collages. And I just anyway, basically, you've come up with some really, really interesting and fresh, innovative ways of typing people. But what I want to hone in on is that your perspective on typing people, having having a person be tight is itself controversial in the Enneagram world, because in the Enneagram world, many teachers, and I'm actually not even 100% sure where I stand on this, to be honest with you, but what, what the kind of traditional line is in the Enneagram world is that the journey to the. Discovering your type is this whole thing, and it's, it's and it's really sacred and important. And what's going on in a person's inner world is potentially, well, how do I put it? It's their responsibility and their privilege to go through it and sort of, so what if someone's mistyped, maybe it's useful for them for a little while before they discover their real type. And so when you go to it's like the narrative tradition, they'll give their whole typing framework as they do an interview with you. They ask you a bunch of questions, then they give you they're actually they I've taken that class. They instruct you specifically not to say only one type. They instruct you to say, I'm seeing a lot of types, say three, but also I'm seeing a lot of six and potentially some seven, so I recommend maybe read about all this and see what resonates with you. Basically any grammar says, no, no, here's what your type is. So can you just say a little Yeah, or clarify? Let
Emeka Okorafor 55:56
me Yeah. Let me clarify. It's not that I guess what, what we I don't guess I know what we're saying. That about types is that, on one hand, it is a personal experience of awakening, that even if I type you and say that I think you're typing, here's why it doesn't mean anything if you if this doesn't light something up in you and open up some eyes, like you are able to see certain things about yourself, where a light bulb goes off, and then you can, you have to do the inner work yourself. And so I say that a typing is just a framework to better understand something that's already happening, and accurate typing is just to get you to actually get on the right page of what's actually happening. Now, people say that, you know, you know, I've heard this before, that it might be useful for someone to mistype for years, and they could learn a lot from applying, you know, inner work from another type perspective. And that may be true, but I I believe that the Enneagram is extremely powerful. It's such a sharp knife that if you do find your type, and you do see it, that it is such a life changing and it just strips you naked in such a powerful way that it doesn't compare like if you were doing inner work as a six, and you and then you figured out that you were three, and that's your actual type. It is going to illuminate so many important things that i That's why I'm so we're so blatant about this stuff, because we know, like, how powerful it is to get on the other side of this process. Because that's it's such a life changing experience to actually discover what your actual type is. And so, on one hand, what we've created, you know, people a lot of attachment types, three, six and nine. You know, are already doing the thing where they're attaching to situations or attaching to people and sort of giving away their own self agency. And what we try to do is encourage people like this is still about you, but you can stay at home and put on some clothes and think that you look amazing, but at some point you need to go look in a mirror. You need a reflection back to yourself to make sure you don't have a hole in the back here at genes, or you might have to go to a stylist or a professional, somebody who knows what they're doing to help you put the shit together. And so, you know, we go to therapists, we go to experts who can give us another perspective and mirror back to us our blind spots, things that we are not able to see in ourselves. And there's some aspects of my typing that I could not get on my own. I had I had to have people who you know, like if five people who know you well, who aren't idiots, who can make some observations about you, you should take those notes, because you probably can't see those things about yourself. And even better, if strangers who have no investment in who you are as a person, can make some observations about you. That's even better data that you can say, you know, that's, that's, I'm enough people say that I'm provocative. That's, it's true. Doesn't matter what I think about myself or how I'm experiencing myself. It's true, you know, like, that's, that's just how people experience me. And the point is, how I experience myself is not matching what's actually happening, and that's why we have to awaken to what is actually going on, because we're just asleep to the program that we're running all the time. So that's what we try to tell people, is like, you're gonna get wrong, because how do you see yourself? So this idea that only you can figure it out, only you can identify what your type is like, that's the whole point of what we're doing is, is that if we if we could do it on our own, we wouldn't need the Enneagram. So, like, there's this sense of, I need to actually consider the possibility that everything I think about myself is completely off. It's completely wrong. And so what we've done is created tools and processes for people to observe. Of themselves, but also get independent, unbiased observations, like even people making a video of themselves, making collages of themselves. That the process of watching themselves that's almost like another person. It really helps drive it home. Like, wow, I didn't know I was really like this. I didn't know that. And so that process is illuminating, and then the other side of it is just the skill set of typing itself, like these types are real. They're not just words on a page or ideas. They're happening in real time, which is the whole reason why we can do inner work is that there are implications. If you keep doing three, or you keep doing eight, or you keep doing six, in these incremental decisions over the course of months and years. Certain themes, you know, certain perspectives, get crystallized, and they're observable in real time. Instincts are significant, because these are you're having instinctual reactions moment to moment. It's a lens to see the world, and that's so interesting to me. That's almost like you're in a different world that I'm in. You're not, we're not in the same world. And so just to kind of like, understand what world someone is coming from, and to see that these, these, uh, type perspectives are playing out all the time. Everyone thinks that their world is the only world. And so to part of what I really enjoy doing is to make something invisible that no one can see, and make it visible, such as, like, a type in a real way that people can't You can't ignore it anymore. So, you know, like, the last year, we've typed a lot of people who are attachment types, and I just noticed that people didn't know what attachment was. And you know, this, this can help you, you know, explain what my personality does. Like I could see a large scale problem and think, all right, there are a lot of attachment types that know that they're attachment types, but don't understand, can't see it because there's it's kind of like the norm. So if, how do I, how do I like I was trying to figure out, how do I make something invisible like this visible, and so that's where the attachment, the hexad versus attachment stuff, came out. Because I was like, you know, there's something, there's a huge divide that I'm not understanding about attachment types. And if I can make this distinction, hexat types will immediately get it. And if, if hexat types will immediately get this distinction, then we can sort of start to make attachment visible. And it took a year, but now people know what attachment is a little bit more than they did the year before. And so what I find really interesting about typing is that a lot of these ideas and a lot of these distinctions just aren't they're invisible, and you kind of have to. I just want to bring this stuff to life in a way that it's undeniable. You know, like, these types are not just, you know, they have real implications for inner work, which means it's real. It's happening today, this moment, you're making decisions that are adding up over the course of months and years, that are going to put you in a certain place. And maybe your type of six, you're making six, you know, shaped decisions moment to moment. If your instincts are social, you're making social instinct shaped decisions. And to see that, yeah, you can make a 10 minute video, and we can identify that incredible consistently. You know, year after year, we can identify these distinctions. And so that might sound crazy and controversial to people, but that's if you can wrap your head around that. I feel like the Enneagram now becomes like a living, breathing thing. These are not just typologies and types that we identify with, but these are these. This is what we're doing. This is how we're living. These are the decisions we're making. And so in a way, like, you know, studying the Enneagram has been like doing self therapy, in a way, because, like, these powerful like to recognize that, yeah, I'm cry, I am I am in a type structure that is so distinct and is so limiting. And I think this is what reality is, and everyone else is doing the same thing. And if you can see it, that's the first step in, sort of like, I guess, being able to escape the matrix, you have to see it first.
Josh Lavine 1:04:14
I'm hearing a lot of I just, first of all, that's your Oscar winning moment. Actually really found that inspiring and super valuable. And I honestly, I mean, I love your perspective on this whole stuff, and I can feel the place that it comes from. Yes, and I'm hearing a lot of the just the like, the wisdom, the soul, the eight come through in your answer here the sense of, like, let's make it real. Yes, let's make it real. Like it's not happening. It's not, it's not. It doesn't exist in an abstraction. It exists in you right now.
Emeka Okorafor 1:04:50
Yeah, you know, yeah, we just did a Egypt episode. And, you know, John is really passionate about Egypt. And, you know, one of the things that he's See, he said. Of is that, you know, Egypt is a civilization that really valued in our life, but it didn't. It wasn't just a philosophy. It's a philosophy that materialized in these incredible, precise pyramids, and, you know, like, and that will last for 1000s and 1000s of years. And so it's one thing to do inner work. I guess what the eight personality brings to the table is, is a realization materializing, what's inside out there in the world. And so I want to, you know, what I want to do with inner work in, you know, crazy, entertaining, or whatever ways is to really put this stuff as a moment to moment experience for people that in a way that you can't avoid it. It's easier to avoid words on a page and to discount it as just ideas, but when you go up to a fucking pyramid and you see, how the fuck did these people put, you know, millions of blocks together, like it makes you stop and consider that you don't know anything. And so that's why, you know, I've been really excited about the stuff that we've created, like the collage exercise, the typing process that we've because, you know, I want people to actually experience the Enneagram, you know, like, actually practice it, to have, you know, the Enneagram, to be part of their lives. Like this is not just ideas, you know, you can learn about, you know, look at relationships differently with the Enneagram like this has real implications in your real life right now. And I think that's why our group is so active, is that, you know, I think this, I'm at the point where I know the Enneagram pretty well, but it's like so many untapped avenues and trying to understand how the Enneagram can be used to see through certain areas of life, to see through, you know, the bullshit, and to really get at the heart of what's really going on in certain areas. And so that's what I'm excited to do, is just to make the Enneagram real.
Josh Lavine 1:06:59
Fuck yeah. I love it. That feels like a really good place to end. But I'm going to push it just one more question, sure. And this is a, this is going to be a little bit more of a kind of basic Enneagram question, but sure, this something I get all the time, and a lot of a lot of people that I work with are people in business and investors and people like that who want to know, like, I have an eight boss, or I have an eight partner or something like that. How do I, how do I interact with them in a way that's healthy or that, like, if they're being really fortunate? So can you speak a little bit to that, like, what advice you give to actually, people said, both eights and also people who have eights in their lives? Okay?
Emeka Okorafor 1:07:41
So I think if someone is an eight, this is going to be difficult to realize. But I think what eights need to realize is, like you said, they are more provocative than they realize that they're more forceful. You know that it's hard to see yourself and as an eight, it's hard to see how others might be. You know about your energy? About yeah, there's so much. It's not even that you're necessarily aggressive, but there's so much unspoken threat and unspoken energetic push just at stand still with the eight personality. And it's not really to say that an A needs to do that, just to just first be able to see yourself a little bit, to see that people are experiencing, that there are not very many avenues to get to you, that that there is a sense that you're controlling, even though you might not be explicitly controlling, that there are very few options on how they can deal with you, that they have to play on your terms and and so it helps to contextualize how people might react certain things you do. I mean, there are things that I could say, that other people could say, and people won't react the same way just because of the kind of energy that I'm, that I'm, you know, that I have as a baseline. So there's that. And I guess the the hard thing that AIDS need to do as part of their inner work is to to recognize that they can allow things to happen, that there's a sense that if I want good outcomes, especially outcomes that I want, then I have to influence them and that. And also, at least for me, I trust people who I who I know can get, generate the outcomes that I want. And if someone generate, you know, if they demonstrate that they don't have the ability to do that, then I feel like I feel compelled to step in, do it myself, you know. So there's a sense of we need to get to done as soon as possible. And I'm wanting to shape that and and so one of the hardest things that I've had to learn to do is that it's not up to me. It's not all up to me. And you know that there is room for me to let things breathe and to step back. And I think that's going to be difficult for a lot of aids to do, but it's, it's. Actually see that there is a unfolding of action that I don't have to be influencing. There are things that can happen if I just let things happen. Now, of course, I mean, one has to be wise in how they do that, but there's been some amazing things that have happened that were completely outside of my influence. And I think every eight needs to understand that that's a possibility, that that's something that can they can allow things to unfold, instead of, you know, carrying everything. And so then, for people who are dealing with eight one thing to watch out for with eights is the rejection piece of the personality where eights might be doing all this stuff that they're might feel controlling because they feel like this is what the situation needs. And so it can be hurtful to an eight to be told that they're controlling, because that will inevitably trigger this sense of while the only reason I'm even in this situation is because I care, and the part of the eight that's just wants to cut off from everything, or feels cut off from everything gets triggered in a sense that I'm only here because I give a shit. And so if you're telling me that I'm controlling you, or you don't like what I'm doing, I'm just backing off completely. And so I think it's important to recognize, if you're dealing with an eight like where they're coming from, with what they're doing, you know they might seem provocative, or they might seem controlling, to see that you know their intentions. They're not. Their intentions are not to control. It's like they're they're, they think that they're they think that they're serving the situation. They think that they are doing something that that group or situation, or whatever needs. And so I think it's important to if you can see where an eight is coming from, what the true heart I mean, of course there are eight that are trying to control things, but you can get an A to shut down very quickly if you if you point out that you might feel that they're they have those bad intentions. Then, then you might not get an A to cooperate anymore, in the sense that, you know, they're just like, I'm done, you know, like you just do it yourself. So you don't want to trigger that over independent sort of mindset. So I think it's important to recognize that, you know, see the a personality for what it is, and also set some clear boundaries. Because if you here's the thing, if you invite an eight in and give them the reins and say, I trust you to handle this for me, make sure that that's what you want, because they're going to do that. It's the issue that I've run into is sometimes people give me the reins. I mean, usually what I've learned to do is I wait for people to fuck it up so bad that I'm, you know, the obvious choice, and I pick it up, because at that point it's like, I know what I'm doing. You obviously don't know what you're doing. You know that? I know that. There's no issue. But sometimes people give me the reins and I take control of something, and then they come around to say that I'm controlling them, or I'm I took control of the situation. It's like, just be clear about what you want to, you know, give ownership to if you're going to tell Nate that I want you to handle this, they're going to handle it. Just be sure that that's what you want. I think, you know, as long as people are clear, and they set clear boundaries. They won't have any issues working with AIDS. I appreciate people who their yeses and nos are clear. Not to say that, you know, not to say that every you can't change your mind, but just be don't, you know, contradictory stuff can be tough to deal with, because the eights are like, just let me know. Yes or No. If you don't want me involved, I won't be involved. If you want me involved, this is what I'm willing to do. You know, eights can be really easy to work with. If you're direct and you're clear, that's it. What about the
Josh Lavine 1:13:51
one case, if they're this is, I hear so many people talk about my bosses and AIDS,
Emeka Okorafor 1:13:55
yeah, yeah. They're probably not, though, but that's the archetype that gets, you know, the archetype that's blamed on eight is anyone who's bossy and, you know, all that stuff, my boss is an eight, or my boyfriend's an A my husband's an eight. It's like they're probably not. They might be eight fixed, you know, they might have some eight influence, but they're probably not an eight. Because the thing about eight, they're not necessarily micro managers. You Yeah, they're not micromanager types, you know, eight are gonna expect you to stand on your own and handle your shit, and they're gonna hold you accountable to the thing that you said that you were gonna handle, you know. So their bosses are probably not eight. But in terms of what people might be imagining a energy is, I don't think people really understand how separate eights can be in their perspective. Yeah, well, no, in general, just like there's a, if you're working with an eight, there's a sense of kind of a separation. It's not messy, like they, you know, it's like. I'm doing this, you're doing this, we're going to meet like, there's a sense of clear boundaries with with eights. I mean, don't get me wrong, eights are going to expect things to happen very quickly, so they're going to push you, but you're always going to know where you stand with eights. And so a lot of times when people say, my boss is an eight because he flew off and yelled at me or this and that, it's like, yeah, you have a boss who's aggressive. That's doesn't mean that they have the eight personality. They probably don't, you know. And also, it's just also knowing just how rare eights are comparison to, you know, all the other types. It's not, it's a pretty low percentage. So there it's probably not, it's probably not eight. But if you are dealing with an eight, it's gonna be very obvious, you know, be, if based on what I've explained and what the eight type structure is like that that the combination of rejection, reactivity and assertiveness, it can feel really alienating to a lot of people who are attachment types. So that's a very distinct personality,
Josh Lavine 1:15:59
yeah. And just one thing I want to highlight, too, is, I think you're phrasing around the not triggering the shutdown response or the independence. That's really fascinating to me. And I mean, would you one word that gets that gets used a lot with AIDS, when we're talking about like really getting under the hood, is their sensitivity, which is often so, so misunderstood,
Emeka Okorafor 1:16:22
yes, yeah, you know, that's a big deal. Could
Josh Lavine 1:16:26
you just connect those dots a little bit?
Emeka Okorafor 1:16:28
Well, the it's like ages are sensitive to it's just, you know, it's hidden under. It's just hard to reach. It feels like an amputated part of yourself, but it's still there. But what generally happens when it's feel like a part of themselves that they don't want to be touched as touched or they, you know, like, let's say someone accuses me of being controlling when I had good intentions or whatever else. It's like, okay, I'm done, you know, I'm just backing off completely, I'm completely disengaging. And I didn't really understand that whole line of five thing until I saw it in other eight. I was in a I was, like, in a bar and an EIGHT. I knew she was an eight. It was like, she was obviously, like, a social eight had hit on me. And it was just kind of this weird thing where she wanted me to respond in certain ways, and when I didn't, she completely disengaged. And I was like, Oh, I do that, you know. So just it took me to see how, you know, there's as a rejection type, there's a way that you're already, already assuming that you don't need something, or that you're not welcome somewhere. And so when someone confirms that, or says something that touches that it immediately says, Well, I never needed that to begin with. That's the rejection type with message, yeah, 258, is like, I never needed that to begin with. And it's kind of like an immediate amputation. And so you don't, if you're dealing with an eight, you don't want to trigger that, because it's almost like if you're telling, if you're telling an eight, you're not welcome in a place where they thought that they were welcome, they're going to just default to, well, I never needed this situation to begin with. I'm not even supposed to be here, so, you know, so they completely can cut off from that situation. And so eights have been doing that their whole life. Is I never needed that to begin with. I never needed you to begin with. And so that's the touchy part. That's a touchy spot of eight that doesn't seem vulnerable, but is in a sense that is in a sense that it's not like an eight actually needs anything, but if you confirm to an eight that their presence was not welcome in a situation because you feel like they're too much, that's the reaction that can happen on the other side is like, well, not even I didn't I don't even care about this anyway. Like, for real, not like some types that say that they don't care about something, but they already care, sincere, like amputation, like I never even, you know, gave a shit about this anyway, right, right, right, right.
Josh Lavine 1:19:09
Wow. Well, okay, you're honestly, I mean, I love the way you talk about the anagram. It's so it's so rich, and it always makes me think a lot about things that I haven't thought a lot about before. So thank you. Is there anything that you would want to end on, or any anything that we I haven't asked you, or
Emeka Okorafor 1:19:30
No, I would, I would just say, yeah. I mean, if people who are interested watching your YouTube series, or course, or whatever this might end up being, is that, you know, the Enneagram is a very, very powerful tool like, and they might be aware of other personality systems, but this is, like, this is the real deal, like this can actually change your fucking life, change your organization, change group dynamics. It's, it's changed my life, and so part of my mission is. To make it unignorable. You know, that's that's really what it is, make it, make it to something where everyone knows what I know. That's what I want.
Josh Lavine 1:20:14
I it's my sincere response that is, I feel kind of emboldened myself, actually, because I feel mission aligned in a certain sense. What you're bringing, yeah, as a person who cares a lot about the interviewer myself, so, so thanks for kind of bringing that energy. That's
Emeka Okorafor 1:20:33
what I do. Say juice. Yeah, then say juice.
Josh Lavine 1:20:42
Okay. So if you want to discover more of Emma's work, you can find him a lot of places, any grammar.com, the big hormone, Enneagram podcast, any grammar, Facebook group, not a four Instagram account, which I'm not actually sure you're even doing anymore, but,
Emeka Okorafor 1:20:57
I mean, I don't do it anymore, but I mean it's, it's more of a movement now, but, yeah, Dark Arts Academy, also people,
Josh Lavine 1:21:04
okay, which is, can you say two seconds?
Emeka Okorafor 1:21:06
It's a it's a weekly class. You know, we do videos where we walk through play by play, typing a celebrity, yeah? So, you know, we talk all this stuff I've been saying about typing. I think people have been asking us to teach courses about typing to help people understand what the hell we're doing, but now we are doing a weekly I mean, people have joined and being able to watch what we're doing to pick up like, Oh, these types are real. And people are picking up the skill of recognizing the types as they're happening in real time. So it's 19 bucks a month to watch these weekly classes that we do about one hour each, where me Joseph and David are, you know, group typing someone and discussing. It's kind of like a podcast about typing live video. So it's great. It's fun, what, and it's easy to get into
Josh Lavine 1:21:57
that's super I actually didn't know you're doing that, and I'm interested. So we
Emeka Okorafor 1:22:02
just need to get better, very cool, better at promoting it. Because, I mean, it's only been going for about five months, and it's going well, but I we just haven't, you know, we've just been focusing on, you know, doing it on a weekly basis and getting the people in the group aware that it exists. But at some point, I think a lot of more people are going to be really interested in, you know, watching those videos. Those videos.
Josh Lavine 1:22:23
Cool. Um, Emma, thank you so much, man.
Emeka Okorafor 1:22:27
This has been fun. This has been great. I'm I, I am always happy to work with people who are super passionate about this stuff. And it's really rare that people are someone who's producing, you know, original stuff of their own, adding their own touch the Enneagram. So I'm excited to, you know, do this with you, and It's just a lot of fun feeling as mutual.
Unknown Speaker 1:22:45
You
