Kelsey 0:00
The work previously on one side was turn off all emotions and just like power through and work now is like, I can't do my work without, like, really being there, and like feeling all of the things, and like knowing how I'm feeling, and like having that level of self awareness, because I can't show up without doing that.
Josh Lavine 0:19
Welcome everyone to another episode of what it's like to be you show where I interview people about their experience as their Enneagram type. I'm really excited about the show today because we are interviewing a friend and client of mine named Kelsey, who is a type three, which is also my type. It's always really fun to get to talk to threes who've cultivated a level of self awareness where we can really dig into the inner world. It's very personally fun for me, and also it's really interesting to me how, as a coach, most of the clients that I coach are threes. For a lot of reasons. I coach a lot of people in the startup world, like founders and investors, and threes typically self select into those roles more than other types. Also, there's a sense that threes are oriented to self development naturally, and because of that, they're the most likely type to seek out a coach. So I find myself taking more meetings with threes than any other type. Type three. The achiever is or I like to call it the value seeker. The Passion of a three is vanity, and it's really just we use the word vanity in all kinds of different ways these days, but what it's pointing to is a kind of suffering in the heart where it feels like I have to become extraordinary or be absolutely outstanding at something in order to justify my existence. Otherwise, I'm doomed to the oblivion of worthlessness, the basic desire is to be valuable and to be a person worthy of admiration. This is a really great introduction to the three this conversation. I think Kelsey is really inspiring, and the company she is building, even itself, has a three ish quality. And her journey is really beautiful from the point of view of three, basically, you're gonna, we're gonna get into this in the actual conversation, but early in her career, wanting to find a place of work that was like her ticket to success, and then having a really bad experience, and then kind of having a moment of deep inner reconciliation where she had to ask herself what she really wanted, which is, in a sense, like the thing that's most important for all threes. And every three, if they're lucky, has has a kind of reconciliation like this. And so we get into that, and we get into what her current, what she's currently up to, and we get into, of course, what it's like to be her as a three, and certainly now as a three, founder and leader of a company that has, as I said, this kind of three is flavor a company. Just a quick thing about it is, she is building a company called candor, which is trying to help people give and receive more authentic feedback to create more interpersonal goodness in the workplace, so that you can find your kind of home in the workplace. And I'm gonna let her speak about it, because she's a great spokesman for it, and I think we'll just get into it. So without further ado, please welcome my friend Kelsey. Welcome everyone to another interview. I'm very excited to be joined by my friend Kelsey today. Kelsey is the founder of a new company, new startup called candor, which we're going to get into in a little bit. She's also currently living in Lisbon, and is a, generally speaking, a world traveler. And she also leads with Enneagram type three self preservation three. So hi, Kelsey. Thank you for doing this.
Kelsey 3:42
Hey, Josh, thanks for having me.
Josh Lavine 3:45
So my favorite question to start is, what's it like to be introduced?
Kelsey 3:56
It's always a little bit weird hearing someone reflect back what they perceive of you. But yeah, your introduction feels pretty, pretty spot on. But yeah, sometimes can be a little bit awkward.
Josh Lavine 4:11
Yeah, one, one thing that's really interesting is with different Enneagram types. Some, sometimes it, it's, it's like, extremely weird, like a sort of out of body experience. And what I'm curious about, from the three perspective, is that, like, three, sort of the textbook three thing, is being identified with what I do, in some sense. And so I wonder, I wonder if it's more natural for three is to be introduced like, oh yeah, I've done this stuff, and this is how, this is kind of who I am.
Kelsey 4:40
Oh, absolutely, yeah. I think that's the only way I've gotten introduced in the past, is like, this is Kelsey, and this is her title. I don't know that most of my introductions get the world traveler Lisbon piece, which is definitely part of me. So I like it. Yeah,
Josh Lavine 4:56
cool. So. Will you? Let's start with Will you share with us your Enneagram origin story?
Kelsey 5:04
Yeah. So when I actually first started working in startups, everyone on the team saw the same coach, and this coach was an Enneagram teacher, and so after our first session with him, he had us all take the like, free online Enneagram test. And my manager at the time was very into the Enneagram as well. He also had seen this coach in the past, and was very curious, kind of what everybody was. And he was an eight. And so I took it and was a three, and was like, oh my god, this is spot on. I remember reading it at work, and I think I took the test at like 2pm and by the time I left at five, I had done nothing besides reading different Enneagram articles about threes and threes matched with eights and threes matched with twos. And just really trying to wrap my head around kind of this undiscovered landscape of, like, how I work, and all of these things that I just hadn't perceived about, really, my relationships. So yeah, had learned about it in the context of work very quickly. Had texted all of my friends and family and was like, You need to take this test right now. And, yeah, kind of introduced it to the other spheres of life in that way.
Josh Lavine 6:20
How did you know you were three?
Kelsey 6:27
Actually, when I took it, I was going through kind of a stressful time at work, and I think a lot of the fixations of the three felt very real. In particular, I read the kind of the summary of the three. And pictured this meeting at work I had had, like the week before, where I was really stressed. I was, like, under a deadline, and definitely not the best meeting of my career. But, like, I looked up and I was like, Hey guys, this meeting is a giant waste of time. I need to get back to work. Reflecting on that, I was like, oh, right, got it, yep, this checks out. So it was basically like, I think where I was at in the life stage, all of the fixations really resonated. And so it was very easy to be like, yeah, cringy, but I do that,
Josh Lavine 7:19
yeah. So let's just follow this theme for a second. This like needs to get back to work, or orientation towards efficiency and things that are a waste of time and things like that. Yeah. Do you have some texture for us about that? Like, maybe just what's your inner experience of the desire to work and the desire for to be efficient in work
Kelsey 7:49
as a Yeah, yeah, um, it almost feels like it's like my my desired mode is to be working. And if I could, like my desired speed, like what I feel great at what I feel like I'm just like sprinting in, it's working. And it's always felt like that, even from when I was very young. I just like, I love checking things off a list. I love like finishing homework assignment, or I love finishing a thing on my to do list now at work, and just like being done and moving on and feeling accomplished. So I it doesn't really matter if it's work stuff, I also get kind of like this fixation or just like, need to check it off when it comes to, like exercising or even meditating sometimes, unfortunately, but it's like, yeah, it does. It does feel a little bit obsessive sometimes in the unhealthy states, and, like, in a healthier state, it's just like, wow, I can, like, get so much done. This is so cool, but, but, yeah, in a lot of cases, I think it also can kind of take me away from things that are uncomfortable in life, and actually, just like, transport me into this mode that's very comfortable and productive and efficient and like, I love it. And so sometimes, if I'm, you know, feeling a lot of emotions, or, like, just going through a hard time, diving into work can kind of be a safe haven too. Yeah,
Josh Lavine 9:21
that makes, that makes a lot of sense. And also, as a three, I'm relating, but, yeah, I think one of the things that I just want to unpack here, particularly, you know, if you're not a three, or even maybe not an assertive type, then it, it's sort of like, can be confusing. Or like, why are threes doing all this work? Like, what's what are they sort of getting out of it? Why aren't they resting? You know, and what I'm hearing from you is it's almost like a way of self regulating. It's like, if I'm working, that's what, that's what actually makes me feel good. Whereas some types, they get really excited about their leisure time, or it's like. When they can finish work, it's like, Oh, thank God, I can unplug for the day. It's almost like, the reverse.
Kelsey 10:06
It's the reverse, yeah, like I feel like I have to, like, the things outside of work are like, okay, like, I'm gonna get up and I'm gonna do my silly little walk to the silly little gym and, like, do my workout for my silly little mental health. But then I get to, like, go back to my desk and, like, power through all the shit I get to do today, like, just, like, yes, so it is definitely reversed. I think especially when I love my work, I think that always, hasn't always been the case. There's been times where work can feel very mundane or repetitive, but particularly in starting a company where every day is really different and challenging and kind of like different problems that I can context switch into, that is my totally my jam,
Josh Lavine 10:53
this loving your work versus not loving your work thing. I think that's a really interesting theme, too, and especially in the context of three, I'm curious how you relate to this. Like one thing that I've certainly experienced as a three, and I think a lot of threes experience, is finding themselves in situations where work is required of them to perform well, but it's not something that's really their passion, but doing it anyway, or what's, what's, what's it like? And can you contrast doing work that you don't love versus work that you do love? And what is there a that, yeah, that landscape for us?
Kelsey 11:35
Yeah, I think it's so easy to look around and say, This is what people want me to be or want me to do, and knowing that I'm can be good at it, just like, start running in a path that I don't feel particularly connected to, but I look around and I'm like, All right, well, like, this is what my friends think I am, or this is what my parents want me to be, and so I'm just gonna, like, go do that thing and like, be that thing for them, because that that also is like, a weird kind of like, it makes, makes maybe like, in a sense, could feel like success is like being what the people around you want you to be like. That can feel like success. And so it's really easy to get caught in that trap. And I definitely have been in roles where that was the case, where living in San Francisco, for example, everyone's like, Oh, you know, you have to join a rocket ship, and you have to be early at the rocket ship, and equity, and all of these things are going to learn so much about the zero to 10,000 or whatever it is. And that's, that's the dream, like, that's the dream of being in San Francisco and being in Silicon Valley. So I was like, Yeah, that's definitely my dream. And so I joined a rocket ship as, like, employee eight. And to give you a sense, like, I didn't know what the product did until, like, week three on the job. And, like, honestly, I didn't care. Yeah, like, sad, sad, sick, awful, but I was just like, This is my this is my ticket. Like, this is where I'm gonna learn. This is where I'm gonna, like, grow into this kind of like success story that everyone talks about. Like, this is the reason why I work in startups. And on that journey, I was at that company for just over a year, and it was, it was really tough. Because on one hand, I had this, like, picture of what everyone thought, you know, was being successful in Silicon Valley, which is like, join an early stage startup, have a ton of impact, own a lot of different domains within the company. You know, scale your teams, blah, blah, blah. And on the other hand, like I didn't really fit with the culture. I didn't really enjoy working with my teammates. I had no care at all for what the product did or was, or the space that we were in, or the problem that we were solving. And so on one side, like alignment, and all the things that I thought I should be aligned on was there. And on the other side, it was like all of the things that I didn't perceive to be important were just so, so mismatched. So, yeah, that was definitely that was a, probably like, non aligned experience of being a three, of just kind of chasing what everyone told me I should be chasing. Yeah,
Josh Lavine 14:20
I was actually just in the moment. They're really struck by your use of the word the dream. Like, that's, that's the Yeah, almost like this, yeah, this, this thing that exists in the sky, like that we look up to. It's like, this is the capital T, capital D, the dream. And how did you, like, where did that come from? And what's in other words, I'm wondering where you got the idea that that was the dream?
Kelsey 14:48
Yeah, I mean, I think it started as a child, right? Like, parents being like, Hey, you're gonna go get a good job, and you're gonna make a lot of money, and maybe one day you'll live in Forbes, right? That was like, for. From kind of a younger age, like parents being like, hey, go get yourself a good job. Make something of yourself. And then I think, after moving out to San Francisco, I joined a company that didn't have any product market fit, but I loved it, like I drank all the cool age that they served at this company, and the product didn't work. Like, it was very much like, not the dream. And I remember going to, like, Dolores Park and hanging out with other people in tech, and I was so high I was like, I just like, I love the team. Like, we're building something that matters. And they're like, Yeah, but like, are you guys making money? Like, are you raising more? Are you raising more VC funds? And I was like, Well, no, like, we're still, like, trying to figure all that stuff out, but like, it's so fun. And I think, like, kind of comparing to my peers who are also on, like, you know, rocket ship trajectories, they're kind of like, oh, Kelsey. Like, how cute. Like, happy, you're happy, but like, you're not actually going to make any money that way. You actually, like, are wasting your time and your talent by going to a company that isn't doing as well as, you know, the 27 other million companies in SF that are exploding right now. So, like, kind of, like, what are you doing? And I was like, Oh, God, yeah, you're right. Like, what am I doing? Being happy? What? No, I need to go join a rocket ship. So
Josh Lavine 16:24
that's a really, really interesting contrast that you just painted, too. So this first company, just to, like, get the landscape, first company, something you loved, but it wasn't going to be successful. You sort of understood that, or kind of could tell early on in some way, yeah, and then so is what happened was you, you chose to leave and then go somewhere else.
Kelsey 16:45
Yeah. So the company at the time was, was not doing super well, and we ended up having kind of an aqua hire acquisition, but not really an acquisition, more of a acquisition of the team. And at that point, I was like, You know what? I'm gonna go figure out what to do next. And my only prerequisite was the company needs to be crushing it like blatant. This company is going to do so well. And I basically laid aside all of the things that were great about my previous experience, and was like, this is the only thing that matters. Like maniacally, like, this is the thing that will make me win.
Josh Lavine 17:22
It's funny. I'm I feel like it's sort of charming, the way you're describing this, but I can also, I can feel the intensity of that narrowness, and, yeah, totally Yeah. Like, it's almost like it's funny the way you're telling it, in retrospect. But the the experience of, like, having been at a place that you're like, Okay, wait, this was not, not, not a ticket, to use your word yes, it wasn't a good ticket. And so something like finding a good ticket, or, like a tat, you know, super exactly thing, yeah. So, so then after so you worked there for a year, and you realized and you didn't like it.
Kelsey 18:06
Yeah, it was, it was awful. Yeah, it was definitely, like a low part, like low point in my life, I would say, because work has been the safe haven, and even if the business wasn't doing well, or I was taking a class I didn't like in college, or, you know, something wasn't aligned. I always, like, enjoyed doing things like, I loved getting up, getting out of bed, and, like, conquering my day. And this, working at this company, was the first time in my life where I just, like, I didn't want to do anything like, I wanted to, like, lay in bed all day, which, for a three is like, a really weird feeling. And, yeah, it just like, I didn't feel useful anymore. I didn't feel like valued at the company at all, and I didn't feel like even when I was doing well, it meant anything where that's like, that's very different. Because, like, I could derive joy of just like, I could have a to do list, which is, like, water plants, like, I check it off and I'm, like, just stupid. And so to like, be growing a company, to like, millions and millions of dollars of revenue and like, not feel value from that, was a really weird experience that I wasn't, I guess, expecting,
Josh Lavine 19:25
yeah, so, so then what happened? What's this? What's the rest of the story?
Kelsey 19:32
Yeah, well, um, basically got to a point where I was physically getting really sick. Um, so it was getting, like, migraines every single day and so nauseous that, like, I couldn't get out of bed. And I was like, right, this is weird. Like, this is just not gonna fly. And so, yeah, basically, like, did a year. Was like, I can't do this anymore, and decided to leave. Had no. Man, no and, like, no idea what I was going to do next. I had no idea of, like, leaving made me unmarketable as a candidate. I had no idea what type of company would even excite me. I looked at JDS for like, two months straight, and they all seemed awful. I was like, I'm just not excited about any of these jobs. So for a while I was just kind of exploring, decompressing, taking walks on the beach and just like, really trying to figure out who I wanted to be, because clearly I had, like, done the dream and that that wasn't me. And so, like, kind of it was like, what, what is what is me. So I had always had this, like, kind of itch in the back of my head of, like, I really want to start something. And I had started things on a smaller scale. I had started organizations in college. I had worked with a classmate of mine who started a company, and worked on that company for a couple of years in school. And so, like, I loved kind of the entrepreneurial journey, but at the time, was very scared of, like, Well, what do I start like, what can I bring to the world that doesn't exist yet? And like, am I actually gonna be good enough to do that? Like, will anyone care what I'm doing? So it was maybe four months of just, like, kind of that type of headspace, and I consulted for a bit just to, kind of like, make money and not put pressure on the process. And like, six months after I left, kind of was like, All right, I'm ready to work full time on what is now candor. And, yeah, yeah, kind of like started the founding process there, yeah, yeah.
Josh Lavine 21:46
Is, gosh, there's so many directions to go from this. One thing that I want to point out about your story, even the way that you were framing it is like you tried something and you realized that it wasn't you. And so then this question, what is me? That's, in a sense, such a fundamental three question, and what was the process like? Like, how did you How did you know what, what? How do you know what is and isn't you?
Kelsey 22:22
Yeah, yeah. I think I was so deep into what is not me, and this felt like mentally really taxing, like not wanting to get out of bed in the morning, but also, like, physically, really taxing. I you know, got actually, like, sick from it, and yeah, and then, and then, yeah. So I think I was so far deep into the zone of, like, all right, this is not working that basically, as I started decompressing, there were small things that I was bringing into my routine. Like, I actually took oil painting in college and loved it. I don't consider myself creative at all, but for some reason, oil painting, just like, was really cool to me. And I just, like, really enjoyed the time. So when I when I left my job, I was like, You know what, every single Friday I'm going to oil paint for two hours, and I don't know what I'm going to paint. I'm not going to plan it. I'm just like, every Friday I'm going to sit down and paint, which, at the time, felt really indulgent. And I think that's probably another theme of the three, is doing things that don't feel productive or don't feel efficient, or like, it's not like I was scouring job boards the entire time I was going through this process. It was like, You know what? I know, I feel good when I paint and it clears my mind, so I'm going to do a lot of that. And like, two hours a week was a lot of that for me. Like, sometimes I would just sit there and be done with my painting, but I'd like spend time just perfecting it, because that was my, like, my two hour sprint. So anyway, it was a lot of like figuring out what made me feel grounded. So painting was one, but like yoga, I really like the ocean, so it was also like spending time by a beach. So yeah, it was definitely not structured in a way that normally, maybe my exploration of something would be structured.
Josh Lavine 24:11
I'm really struck actually, by the kind of the gift that you gave yourself to spend, not to rush into the next thing and to kind of take some time and decompress and reflect and do things like painting and walking on the beach, which is kind of a thing that's like, not a lot of threes let themselves have that time. You know what? I
Kelsey 24:30
mean? Yeah, yeah. I mean, initially I was like, All right, I'm gonna give myself six months. And as I started going through it, I was like, if I rush into the next thing, and I go back to the place that I was at when I was leaving that job, like, what, what a waste of time that will be, you know, to, like, basically settle in because I was rushing my like, time off, or figuring it out, time
Josh Lavine 24:55
interesting. So it was kind of even a way that you justified it in your head, as. Like this actually worth my time, even though maybe doesn't feel like at the moment, because, yes, yeah, yeah. And then is, is founding candor, or being a founder, sort of like part of or a variation on, quote, unquote, the dream.
Kelsey 25:21
Um, founding, like candor in particular, has felt like the most me thing I've ever done. And yeah, I don't, I don't actually think that it would be anybody else's dream. So it's definitely not the dream. It's, it's definitely my dream. And I guess the reason why I say that is it's not like, in the same way that the company that I worked at that is the rocket ship like that was such an obvious kind of like, great business, great venture backed, grows super fast, like it's obviously going to succeed. And candor is in this space where we're trying to solve like a real human problem, which is like, how do you understand what somebody is like to work with? And that's a really hard problem to solve. It's like the most important problem I've ever encountered, ever in my life. So it's like, this is my dream. Is, like, if I could help someone else understand themselves, help someone else understand their teammates, so they could have really great relationships at work, like, I've won my like, that's my dream. But it's not like, a, you know, slam dunk definitely gonna happen. Like, it's gonna be really freaking hard if we make it happen. It's the thing I want to work on. But yeah, it doesn't feel like the maybe the fastest point to success is not this path. Sure,
Josh Lavine 26:48
yeah, say more about why it's your dream. And also maybe can you, can you say more about candor itself? And also, just because I know you the the way that it's framed up now in your head, like the whole Nike JUST DO IT analogy thing which has a threeish flavor, yeah. Can you give some texture on all that? Yes,
Kelsey 27:13
yes. Um, so basically, candor today is we are trying to help people become more self aware by getting them real feedback on what they're like to work with, from their teammates on both kind of like what they're great at, so like their strengths, but also maybe where they're still growing and like, we call those edges. So there's like, kind of a self awareness piece, which is like, you walk through an assessment yourself, and you're like, hey, how do I perceive myself? Yeah, and then your teammates also walk through the same assessment, and they're like, hey, Kelsey, like, this is where I perceive that you're crushing it, and this is where I perceive that you might want to spend more time and grow in so it's, it's kind of a feedback product. It's kind of like a team building product. But I think ultimately the vision is, how do we become more authentic on the internet, and how do we become more authentic at work? And right now, those two things are kind of combining right before it was like, I show up at work and I'm like, you know, this box that is Kelsey, and then I go home and I can, like, take off my shoes and relax and be the real me, and that's just not how we work anymore. You know, we're on zoom all day. We're remote. We're also like seeing kind of the rise of consultants and creators and people who just have more flexible work. And I think naturally, work is going to become much more part of life. And so how do we kind of show who we are at work in a way that's more authentic than what we do today, which is like a LinkedIn? You know, digital resume doesn't actually show you who you are as a human and that has increasingly become way more important to do. So that's kind of the the vision and the kind of, like we talked about a little bit about, like, this Nike example. And I get very excited about how we can celebrate, kind of, like the athletes at work, or like, kind of the MVPs of the teams, because they're just like, it is so cool. I think when you really understand who somebody is like, what makes them tick? What, like, makes them want to, like, go all the way and just like, Be the best version of who they want to be at work. That is so cool. And it's like Olympic athlete level of like, celebrating somebody. Like, when you see someone crushing it at work, it is just like, for me, I'm just like, oh yes. Like, yeah. So there's also just like, kind of how Nike celebrates athletes, I think candor can very much celebrate just like the All Stars at at work.
Josh Lavine 29:54
Okay, that's a lot. So first of all, I'm feeling touched by your description of this, and in the three way. Like, and also, as a three, I have this real resonance with the way you're describing, like celebrating. And the idea of, like someone at work is being thought of as an athlete, like fucking going for Yes, like crushing. These are very three themes, like, and, yeah. So I just pulling out a couple other themes, authenticity, big three word. It's sort of textbook, Enneagram. The virtue of the three is authenticity being being myself, and I love the way that you're framing, how just the general structure of work and life as we move to a remote work environment, and also just general just generally, into the future, there's a way of the work life. Separation is blurring, and there's a sense of bringing more of ourselves. And how do we really know who we are and and be that at work? So that's the whole thing. And I think also, I just want to point out, like I could the award, like, inspiration comes the sense of like, feeling inspired, feeling maybe in like, a state of flow or or fulfilling and surfing on, like my potential is Like, these are all this, these are my language, not yours. But it's like, that's what kind of your word cloud there. Can you say? Why is that important to you? Why is that so such a big deal?
Kelsey 31:33
I feel like, and this kind of actually brings us full circle, because I've always enjoyed doing things, but there is a special feeling I get when I'm doing something in this realm that like, feels like something I can uniquely bring to the world. And if I were doing anything else, it wouldn't feel like this. And there's just like, there is this. It just feels like magic, I guess. And so, yeah, I just now that I've had even, like, a taste of it, I don't think I could ever, you know, take a job where this isn't the case. Um, so, yeah, it's important. Because I think I, for so long, just thought work was like checking things off a list and like feeling accomplished, but when it's tied to a deeper mission and a deeper passion, it feels like absolute magic, like work right now, just Yeah, it's magic.
Josh Lavine 32:33
Oh, that's a big I love this distinction you're making. So can you paint that polarity? So on the one hand, work is checking things off a list and feeling accomplished. On the other hand, what
Unknown Speaker 32:50
it's
Kelsey 33:00
it's like, it's contributing the thing to the world that only I can contribute. Or maybe it's like, really showing up in a way where I feel like I'm bringing everything, like, all these parts of me, even the parts where I'm like, like, even, like, emotions are part of it, right? So work previously, on one side was turn off all emotions and just like power through and work now is like, I can't do my work without, like, really being there, and like feeling all of the things, and like knowing how I'm feeling, and like having that level of self awareness, because I can't show up without doing that. So, yeah, there's, there's definitely on this other spectrum as part of like, I guess, like, what I'm bringing to the table, and not just that I'm showing up at the table.
Josh Lavine 33:55
Yeah, it's almost like, or my words for it are so, so you have on this one hand, productivity checklists, feeling accomplished. On the other hand, yeah, a state of bringing my whole self to something that yes is, it's like, it's like the fibers of my being are, are aligning themselves to something that that feels like me and that feels really nourishing in the process of just being and doing it. Yes,
Kelsey 34:28
yeah, exactly.
Josh Lavine 34:31
Um, so this thing about emotions and turning them off versus having them present is also an interesting three theme. Can you talk about, like, has that been a journey for you? Is there, is there a kind of before and after that you can trace of,
Kelsey 34:46
oh, yeah, yes,
Josh Lavine 34:48
you go ahead. What? What's that like? Yeah.
Kelsey 34:50
I mean, the before photo is definitely kind of in college, I was just like, this human doer. I did. Did everything, like every club, every class, every like social thing, I just did it all, and it really didn't leave a lot of space for emotions, because emotions were just inefficient and slowed me down and like, I didn't have time to cry between, like, the two minutes I had between this class in this club, like it was just like, No, turn it off, shove it down, move on. And the before photo was like, at times I would get and I didn't, like, kind of internalize it at the time, but like, I had moments where I would sit in my closet and organize my shoes, because, like, that was the sense of control that I needed. And like, that was my outlet, which is, like, really strange, but like, my shoes are always, like they were always color coordinated and just like, perfectly in line, which is bizarre looking back on now, but I would say, like, it's been a really uncomfortable journey, and I think you've seen a lot of this as in our coaching time together. But you know, I when I made the decision of like, I'm going to go through this time of uncertainty and have no idea what I'm going to do next, but I'm going to give myself a chance to figure it out that, like not knowing what I was doing being unemployed, and basically all of the like labels that I was really terrified of my whole life. It took a lot to, like, really be in that, and also, just like, keep my heart open to whatever emotion would come up. And it was, I think I had this fear when I was going through that of, like, Am I ever gonna stop crying? Like, I'm pretty sure if I start, I'm just not gonna stop, because I've just, like, I've, like, suppressed all of these things for so many years, and so I did stop crying. So that was good. And it's, it's, I really liked the metaphor used of just like the surfing the waves, because they're, they're like, was definitely a time in my journey where I feel like I was just getting pummeled, and I was in the the, what is it, the Break Zone, sure. And, you know, it's like, it's very emotionally draining. And I feel like now that I've gotten a little bit more in touch, or maybe just even more comfortable with having emotions, we'll start there. It's been it's been easier, like going through a difficult time, and like really feeling all of those things in the moment. And I've been trying to remind myself, it's like, it's not an inconvenience. It's, you know, it's just like it's part of the process, and this is part of life. And if I don't do it now, it's gonna come out later, and it's gonna take way longer to untwine, you know, all the things I've suppressed for so long. So I should just, like, do it now and like, be sad and be in my feels, because otherwise it's gonna be like, a lot of trauma I need to fix. I fix. So, yeah,
Josh Lavine 38:04
I just, it's so funny to me how type reveals itself in all these ways, like even the way that you're describing being with your feelings. It's like, okay, let me just do do this now so that it doesn't, yes, cost me a lot more time. So I
Kelsey 38:18
don't like get caught organizing my shoes in the closet.
Josh Lavine 38:26
So that actually, one of the things that you said, that I really resonate with, actually, as a three myself, is the sense of, if I start crying, it'll be forever. Yeah, I won't be able to turn it off. And that's, can you just say something like, some words about that, like, what is the what is that experience like? And actually, let me, let me frame it a little, a little more. It's like, yeah, what I'm picturing is there you are going about your day or your life, and you're being productive, efficient, doing lots of things, and, yeah, feelings are coming up in some kind of way, and it's and you're aware of it, and you're and it's almost like you're aware that you could sort of dip into it. But if you did, there would be something that, like, I don't want to put words in your mouth. So what's,
Kelsey 39:26
yeah, it's like a trade off, like, okay, every single time an emotion comes up, either you're like, with it and you do it then, or you have, like, this, like, it's like an IOU book, or, like, a backlog. It's like, and this is like a shitty startup comparison, but it's like, either you ship one new product thing a week or you put it in the backlog. But like, you can only ship one new product thing a week. You can only, like, feel the feeling you know when you have it, or you stick it in the backlog. Yeah, and all of a sudden you have this, like, long list of like, shit you need to build tomorrow, and you can't do that. And so it just like you feel like everything's just gonna combust at the seams. And like this is, like, the same thing with emotions, is like, if you leave too many things in the backlog, the feeling is, like, oh my god, if I even open the door, if I even, like, open that Asana board, I'm just gonna explode. Because, like, Oh my God, how much stuff I've been shoving back there. And so as soon as someone like, and this is like, still, I'm going with a stupid metaphor, but like, someone pulls a task from the backlog, and it's like, hey, but what about this? Or it's like, hey, Kelsey, like, what about that? Like, little trauma that you just, like, never really looked at because you were busy and, like, someone just, like, pulls a thread, and you're like, Oh, my God, I can't eat. Like, whoa. Like, if I, like, look at that. Now there's so much stuff I have to deal with, like, as a as a product
Josh Lavine 40:57
of that. Yeah, yeah. Um, I love this analogy. Yeah, it's awful.
Kelsey 41:04
I'm sorry. No,
Josh Lavine 41:05
it's okay. It's, it's like, I mean, it's really vivid in terms of describing the, the real feeling of overwhelm, like, yeah, and yeah. This, it also, in a sense, gives a whole new meaning to the word flow, which is another sort of three word. It's like being flow is allowing things to flow. For example, your emotions, not sort of, yes, canning them or or cauterizing it, or, like, you know, letting the pipe it gunked up.
Kelsey 41:37
Yeah, yeah. No, that's that feels super real, where it's like, actually, personally, right now, I feel like I've been kind of on a high for a while, where the team is crushing it, like work is just like, really good. I'm living in my favorite place on the entire planet, which is Lisbon and like, everything has just been like, kind of up here, flowing. And there's been moments, I think, recently, where, like, things start to dip, and something in my life is like comes up where it's just difficult, and there's a lot of emotions with it, but at the same time, it doesn't feel like everything's just like, kind of fallen off the flow. It's just like, it just feels like this is a dip, and I have to, like, be with it, because I guess if we're, like, talking about, like, flow, thinking, like, if a surfboard, right? So you're, like, on a wave, and then like, kind of have this, like, lull, and you're just kind of laying there, and you're like, Yep, I'm here. I'm still with it. Like, this kind of sucks, but like, I'm not going to derail my whole life to like, feel this emotion, but I'm just like, going to be with it, and it's just like part of my life. Because I think for a long time I felt like when there was, like, bad news or catastrophe or like something came up, if I dealt with it in that moment, everything would take a pause, and I would just like, have to sit there and cry for like, I don't know, seven days straight or something, but yeah, more and more I'm feeling like bad things can happen, and I'm probably just like, it's gonna suck, and like it feels bad, but like it's still the same, you know, like I'm still just going still life. So, yeah, yeah. I don't know if that was Yeah.
Josh Lavine 43:21
I'm gonna, I'm gonna geek out in an Enneagram way for a second, just because there's an interesting concept here that you're bringing a lot of life to, and that is that. So the idea that we have a relationship with all this, all our body, heart and mind and the yeah three, has this almost like binary way of being. It's either, it's like either I'm in my body mind, which is like my mind creates the to do list my body goes and executes. But the heart and if it were to come into the picture, like my emotions, for example, it would utterly overwhelm me and destroy my entire life.
Kelsey 43:56
Yes, and I can't do anybody can't do any mind thing. That's just like they're crying.
Josh Lavine 44:00
Yes, I'm over in the heart space, then I just have to be here for seven days when I'm crying. But there's this kind of growth. Part of the growth journey of the three is letting that that wall dissolve, and then bringing my heart with me always. And so the sense of, yeah, so that's in a sense, like you read about that maybe in an Enneagram textbook, or I was thinking, actually this particular section in a book called Understanding the Enneagram by Donna Smithson. But anyway, so you read about, like, the body and the heart and the mind, but here's like, you're actually living this example of what that really means. So anyway, that's thanks for indulging my little explanation. No,
Unknown Speaker 44:41
I love it, yeah.
Josh Lavine 44:43
So let's talk about rest.
Kelsey 44:50
Oh, good one,
Josh Lavine 44:53
yeah. What's your relationship with the rest?
Unknown Speaker 44:56
Resting? I.
Kelsey 45:00
Yeah, I I'm laughing because it's like, it's very it's come up a lot lately. Um, since, since starting candor, I think I've just been so energized by work that I haven't taken time to rest, and when I have, it's been almost like I didn't mean to, I mentioned to you that, like, I was, like, so indulgent. I spent three hours just laying on the couch watching Netflix, yeah. Like, and I, like, can't believe I did that. And, and it was, it was like a Sunday, and I had spent like, the entire day working, and I just, like, had gotten home and just like, melted into my couch. I don't think I even took my shoes off. And it just was, like, one of those things where I was like, like, I just felt so, like, almost gluttonous that I had done that so so recently I did. I took my first day off in a while, and was encouraged not to make any plans and just like, go outside and go for a walk and see where I ended up and and honestly, it was very restorative in a weird way. I think usually my vacations are like, have a purpose. So like, I'm either going to, like, go see a thing, or like, go see a friend, or like, do something. And so it was a very weird exercise not to have a goal associated with a time or day or like, you know, anything, even leaving the house without a goal is, like, very strange. So I think that was actually restful in a way that I hadn't maybe experienced before. Because most of my rest is either, like, not not planned, or like, planned to a T. It's like, either like, I'm like, so tired that, like, I just end up on the couch for three hours and that's like, wild and feels really bad, or I've like, planned my entire vacation to a tea, and it's like, well, I've like, checked off the list of seeing my friends that I haven't seen in a while, or seeing this new place that I haven't seen, or trying this new food. And so, yeah, recently I've been trying to stay out of those two buckets and be actually restorative at the time. Right?
Josh Lavine 47:20
So have you discovered, or are you discovering now, what kinds of like, what is restorative for you, and what does it mean to be restored?
Kelsey 47:36
I do think a lot of it is like my mental state. So actually, like, meditation is very restorative. It's not and maybe it's like, maybe it is considered rest. But like, every single day, I try to meditate at least for 10 minutes, and that part of my day I actually like it's it's not being not stressed, is maybe the thing I'm kind of struggling with, because it's not like relaxing, it's, it's like I need to do this thing to give my brain space to show up the way that I want to show up when I'm, you know, at work or at home or whatever. And I think of like my day off walking around my neighborhood with no plan. Very similarly, where it's, like, I needed to give my brain a rest so that it could basically, like, perform better when I needed it to. So yeah, for me, it's, it's a lot of like, the mental space of, how can I, like, disconnect, be a little bit more present and just like, get a little bit more grounded? And it doesn't take long to do that. So it doesn't feel like I need to, like, go sleep or go on a vacation. It's just like, how do I get back to a place where my mind is in the right spot?
Josh Lavine 48:51
And so how do you, how do you summon the discipline in yourself to stay consistent with the meditation practice or something like that.
Kelsey 49:04
If I'm not being disciplined, then I make it, like, forced, forced fun, whereas, like, Okay, I've been really bad with meditation, and so I actually I now, like, put it into my schedule, so every day I go exercise, and that's been part of my routine now for a few years. And so I kind of layer in meditation with something that I know I'm going to be doing every day, because I am a routine person, so it kind of comes natural, more naturally that way, than like, Oh, I'm just going to fit it in when I have time. Because that does not work for me.
Josh Lavine 49:38
Yeah, yeah. It's I want, I'm trying to hone in on one particular thing that's, I think is really interesting for the three is there's a way that each Enneagram type resists doing something like meditation. It's like there's some kind of, yeah, there's some kind of inner excuse that pops. Up that has a flavor for each Enigma type. Oh, yeah,
Kelsey 50:03
yeah. So I don't actually need to do this today. It's a waste of time. Yeah, no, yes. I've told myself all those things. Yeah,
Josh Lavine 50:11
okay, yeah, cool. I'm thinking about you as a founder and just, I want to kind of explore a little bit of that sandbox, and in the context of being a three, like, for example, raising money from investors, and the the aspect of three that is aware of how I'm coming across to people, the sort of the presentationalism, which is maybe, yeah, actually, I'm using that word neutrally. It's almost like there's this way. This is my experience. And I'm curious if you relate to it as a three is like the in the inescapable awareness that I am being perceived in some way. It's like, yes and and yeah and yeah. So can you talk about that? And in particular, like being, being, I think raising money is a really interesting domain to explore that in. And maybe there's also, yeah, we'll start there. Go ahead,
Kelsey 51:17
yeah. I mean raising money was probably the most difficult thing I have had to do since starting a company. And not because, like, it was hard in a traditional sense, like it didn't take that long. It didn't, you know, it wasn't. I was able to do it, which is kind of the metric for success. But mentally, I was in such a bad place fundraising, because it is like, when you're raising at the stage that candor is out, which is quite early, when someone gives you money, it's not because they think that what you've built is, like, incredible, amazing, like, they love exactly what you've done to date. It's like, okay, Kelsey seems like she might be kind of smart, and maybe she likes this industry, and we think the market is cool, and so we're just like, gonna take a bet on that, like Kelsey can figure it out. And so because of the fact that it was so early when I was first fundraising, I didn't have a team, and so any failure felt so personal. It was like, they don't like me. They don't like this thing that, like, I love that, like, like I said, like, feels very me, also, like, this is like, the problem I've decided to dedicate my life to, yeah, and so you can imagine, you know, I so I chatted in my first round of fundraising, chatted with about 60 investors, and like, maybe, like, 40 of them. We'll call it 30, because some of them just, like, don't get back to you. 30 of them are like, No, thank you. I'm not interested. I'm like, Okay. Like, ouch. Like, you don't like me, or you don't like this, like, mission that I'm working on, and that sucks. Because, like, maybe am I? Am I not seeing what you're seeing about me? Like, is there something that, like, inherently is not worth even the risk of investing even a small amount? So in the beginning, it just like it felt so deeply personal. And of course, every founder who's fundraiser is like, don't take it personally. Everyone gets rejected. But like, no, as a three it is so hard to, like, all day, every day you're on the phone, like, really putting yourself out there, and you're putting this thing out there, and you're asking people for money, which is, like, really weird of a thing. Like, it's a weird thing to do is to ask people for money for this thing that you built by yourself. And they're like, No, you're like, okay,
so yeah, I would say it, it's, it's different than any other thing I've ever done. And yeah, in a way, it like has made me a lot more comfortable with, like, failing and being told no. I think I definitely, I thought I had been told no before. I definitely hadn't like this. So yeah, the second time I went and fundraise, it was, it was definitely different, but that first round of getting rejected constantly, and knowing that these people either don't like you or don't like what you're building is really hard to stomach, especially when you don't have a team, right? Like, there's no one else around to, like, really take the brunt of this, besides, and I'm a solo founder, also, I don't think this is the case for every founder. But like, being like, it's, it's on me, like, all of this failure, all of this rejection, is just a reflection of me. So it was, um, I'm glad. I glad I did it. And like, it was a huge learning experience, huge learning curve. But it was, it was hard.
Josh Lavine 54:56
What helped you get through that?
Kelsey 54:59
I. Yeah, what was that?
Josh Lavine 55:01
What helped you get through
Kelsey 55:04
that? My partner, honestly, I don't think I had one really low day where I was like, I'm gonna fail. No one's gonna give me any money. I'm gonna have to, like, put my tail in between my legs and, like, go get a job, because this is, like, not going to work without being able to raise money. And I was just like, I was so down. I had gotten a rejection from this investor that I really liked, and I thought we clicked with, and it's like, going on a fantastic first date or even a second date, and then the person being like, I'm just not that into you. And so I got one of those emails, and I woke up and I was like, I'm not getting out of bed this morning, just like, I'm not into it. I'm tired. I'm no, I'm like, I'm so sad. He's like, get up. You can, like, Go cry on the treadmill, but like, we're gonna go to the gym, we're gonna, like, get you moving. And honestly, like, that was all I needed, is, like, I just needed a little kick in the butt. And not having a co founder, I think I could have very much just like, wallowed for a while, and, yeah, very, very grateful for him, just kind of like pushing me when I knew I needed to be pushed. So that was, that was a big piece of it. And then, yeah, I think just being persistent, like a lot of fundraising, is just talking to enough people, it's like sales. So in a way, it is a little bit of numbers game, and a lot of it is numbers game because you're still trying to figure out your story and what resonates, and like figuring out your pitch. And so literally, the day after that happened, I got on a call and someone was like, hey, we'd like to give you a term sheet. I was like, right. Okay, got it. And so it was just it. It was like, it's so easy to get wrapped up in all of the rejections and the negatives. But I do think having someone who is like, willing to give me a little push and be like, do not go into your dark place. You are fine, like you're going to keep pushing through this and like it was literally one day more of calls, and then we got our term sheet. And of course, when someone gives you a term sheet, then everyone else is like, oh my god, we'd love to give you money. Of course you would great.
Josh Lavine 57:14
So yeah, yeah. And one thing that struck me about that moment with your partner was that there was something about getting back in your body during that sort of spiral that was like, Okay, go, walk, go, go do something, get moving that helps, kind of Yeah, and that sound like a really low moment. And I just want to also point out that you know, threes sort of these sort of types, threes and sevens and eights are, in a sense, the most likely to be founders. And what I think, one of the things that I think distinguishes threes from sevens and eights is this identification almost like my work product is me and and that it's, in a sense, maybe harder for a three to like, to to sustain constant rejection for this thing that is me, especially as you're Saying, as an early stage single source, like solo founder, it's like, because giving you money is a vote of confidence in you. It's not even something that you've built necessarily yet, right? Yeah, and the dating analogy is actually really apropos in that sense, you know. Anyway, yeah. So that was really vivid. And what about now in your role as CEO and having now built a team? And what's it like for you to be sort of leading a team? And what's maybe, actually, let me start there period. Go
Kelsey 59:01
ahead, it's a lot. Of fun. I one of my friends said a couple weeks ago, he was like, you know, when you start a company, it's almost like you get to start your own city, and you get to make up all the rules. You get to bring in your own citizens, and you get to, like, contribute something to, like, the country or whatever that you're in, and you get to pick what that thing is, and it's like having a little city. And so I really like that analogy, and it very much does feel like that. And there are really hard parts of being a leader, to, you know, having to lay someone off, which I, you know, I had to do that. And there are really cool parts of it, which is, like, I hired someone totally out of my league, and they're crushing it, and, like, moving us like, 10 times faster than I'd be able to do on my own. And so, yeah, I think a lot of it is about kind of the team that I've been able to bring on has just, like, it's just been so cool to. Watch everyone be kind of just in the same boat that I've been in alone for so long. To like, have three other people on that boat with me is really cool, and then for them to also be excellent at their roles. And like, for me to just like, stand back and appreciate how hard it was to do their roles at like 20% and have them do it at like 150% is just like, Oh, it's just, it's really cool. So yeah, leading, honestly, has felt natural at this stage. I imagine when it gets bigger, I'll have bigger problems. But as, like, a very small city of I think we're like six people now, it's been really awesome.
Josh Lavine 1:00:44
Yeah, and can you share a little bit too about particularly given what candor is the Yeah, the feedback nature, that is the content, the guts of what candor is, how that plays in your company culture and the kinds of feedback that you are getting or giving, and just what is feedback like in candor? Yeah. I
Kelsey 1:01:07
mean, we have a really cool culture internally, where everyone that signed on to be at this stage, like, cares about the product. And I think the same way that I have candor kind of like as a part of my makeup. They also are very similarly like direct, but also like super kind and it's cool, like it comes out in various ways, like our culture generally is very direct. So I our designer is amazing, super direct guy. And one of our first few weeks working together, he looked at me and was like, Are you gonna hire a product manager? And I was like, oh, no, I wasn't planning on it. Like, that's me. I'm product manager. And he was like, we need to hire a product manager. You're operating as well. And I was like, you know, like, Thank you for telling me this, like, this is so cool. Like, I had this fear, I think that nobody would say anything, because all of a sudden you're, like, they're, you know, big bad boss. And like, nobody's gonna tell the boss something that they don't want to hear. And I think different than that, our culture, from the very beginning has been like, like, hey, Kelsey, like, if this is not going well, or you're not doing this well, or, Hey, this is what I'm seeing. I'm not liking it. And so it is a very open culture. Actually. Like, 90% of our conversations in Slack are in public channels. We have like, an explicit rule of, like, we don't do DMS unless it's, like, really private. So that's been like one piece, and, yeah, I think the other piece of we are, like, very into, like, retros on how things are going, and we're very honest about what's going well and what's not. And I think like, being open in the entire sense of the team is something I haven't experienced before. It's like you can have an open relationship with your manager, or you can have, like, an open relationship with a teammate, but it's never like all of the conversation and all of the problems are just like out for everyone to solve. And I think that's been a really cool experience, because I feel like the ownership or responsibility of cultures is on everyone, and the problems of the company are everyone's to solve, not mine. So it's been, I think, cool in that way, because I feel very supported by that type of culture.
Josh Lavine 1:03:28
Beautiful, yeah, it's almost like an organizational embodiment of authenticity itself. This the sort of the virtue of the three. There's a way that, yeah, and actually, I'm gonna bring this up because I'm curious how this works for you. Like the vulnerability that you've shared with your team at this stage, I think, is really inspiring, and the like the retro that you that you wrote about, the person that you had to let go, and what that was like for you. And can you share a little bit about what that process was like, and the response I got from the team and how you feel like it's impacted the culture so far at candor?
Kelsey 1:04:14
Yeah, so, so in the very early days of candor, I was hiring, made a hire about a month and a half in, was like, not sure if this is going to work out. We did kind of like a very open feedback process, and then ultimately, didn't work out. Around the same time that it wasn't working out, I brought on, like, three new two new teammates, one of them was already on the team, and it was a little bit awkward, because everyone was like, what happened? You know, like, this person was on the team, and now they're not, like, is my job at stake? Like, what do I need to know? Like, what do I need to not do? Because clearly, like, you know, Kelsey is easy to not, not make happy or something. And there was definitely, like, a discomfort that I was sensing, and I chatted with that. Everyone individually. And then I was like, You know what? I feel like I can, kind of like, I can talk all I want, but I want to put something in writing where it's like, hey, here are the things that I messed up. Here's what went wrong, and here's what I'm going to do to not make the same mistake. And I told the team about it in like, our sprint planning meeting, and was like, Hey guys, I did a retro just for myself. I'm happy to share it with whoever wants it. I'd like it to be just this team so, like, you know, future teammates don't need to be privy to the info, but I think it's like appropriate to offer to share it with you so that you can understand kind of my thought process and my learning here, and so shared it with a couple of teammates, and they were all like, this was gutsy, but like, thank you for doing this. Because, one, it'll help us hire better. As you as we kind of like delegate hiring more and we have hiring decisions happening in parallel. It'll help us understand, kind of your thinking around culture fit and what that means, and also, like, it's cool to see you be so honest about, like, where you fucked up. And I was like, yeah, like, it definitely wasn't the comfortable thing to do. And I, you know, I hope that I can do it at larger stages of the company, but we're kind of at the stage now where I trust everyone to, like, take information and be an adult and, like, understand that these things are never easy. So it was definitely, like, very vulnerable and, like, a little uncomfortable, but I'm happy I
Josh Lavine 1:06:33
did it. That's beautiful, yeah. And I think I mean, one of the reasons I prompted you with that story is I one Mike's one of my experiences of the high side of three is, and I think this is sort of not talked about enough in the context of three, is the the willingness of the three to to expose myself, sort of light, dark, shadow. You know, all this, all the stuff, and even that, that language is maybe overused in the space. It just mean, like, the way that we made, the mistakes that we've made, what we've learned, there's a, in a sense, that is a an aspect of authenticity, that is, I don't know, just kind of not really talked about enough, in my opinion. And there's a way that, like you're you created a documents in which you not just admitted certain mistakes, but also explained your own inner process around what caused those mistakes, how to avoid the future. And it opened, my sense, it's like a relational way of being at candor, that it kind of set a precedent for honesty and for emotional vulnerability, these kinds of things, right? Yeah. So, yeah.
Kelsey 1:07:51
I mean, that was kind of the coolest takeaway after it was people feeling like they could speak up if something wasn't feeling right with culture or something wasn't feeling right with another teammate's performance. And it wasn't like running to me and being like, hey, Kelsey, this thing is happening. It's like just like having an open conversation, because now we all know kind of what the baseline is and what should be expected. And so it feels like a cool kind of like, accountability, precedent too, where it's like, now I'm not the only one in my head being like, Oh, I learned that thing. I should do it better next time. It's like, all of my teammates now also recognize that this is the thing that I've learned and that I should be held accountable to do better next time, right?
Josh Lavine 1:08:35
Actually, just connecting a dot from a previous part of our conversation, like the asana backlog of emotional processing and then opening that up to a state of actual just in the moment flow, that's sort of what's happening at the organizational level too as a result of that. Yeah. So totally Yeah. So that's pretty cool, all right. Well, I think we'll come to a close here in just a second. Is there anything else that feels relevant that we didn't talk about?
Kelsey 1:09:14
I don't think so. Nothing comes to mind. Okay,
Josh Lavine 1:09:18
what was this like for you?
Kelsey 1:09:21
This was fun. I liked it. It's yeah, I feel like, usually I get on calls about myself or about candor, and it's very like, I know all the answers and to the questions. And this is a different in the in the way that I feel like we were just chatting, and I definitely couldn't have prepared if you sent me the questions beforehand. So So yeah, that's cool. Well,
Josh Lavine 1:09:55
thank you for doing this, and also thank you for sharing with us, and also, in a sense, down. Demonstrating your experience is a very beautiful capacity for self reflection, and that's one of the reasons I think I'm doing this show in the first place, is to have this be a thing that people can learn from. So anyway, I just also one other thing is, yeah, I really just have a sense of like the light shining from in you around not just candor, but also like who you are, which is a maybe a three thing as well, just like the the inner radiance of the three is really touching me in the moment. So thank you for bringing that.
Unknown Speaker 1:10:39
Thank you. You're welcome. Thank
Kelsey 1:10:40
you. Thanks for having me. This is fun. You
