John Luckovich 0:00
Feel intuitively that my identity is depth, like it's it's of depth itself, like it is a rather than a thing. It is a dimension of experience. It's like, you know, when we are present, when we after, like when we meditate, or right after week two, inner work practice. There is a sense that there's a sense of, like, a kind of a saturation of one's experience, like one's impressions feel saturated. They feel pregnant with meaning.
Josh Lavine 0:32
Welcome to another episode of what it's like to be you. This is a show where I interview people about what it's like to be their Enneagram type. And I'm Josh Lavine, your host, I am super excited about today's conversation with my friend John lekovich, who is a type four. I have a massive man crush on John lekovich. I think he is brilliant, and he has been a major influence on me and the way that I think about the Enneagram and has helped me clarify a lot of really powerful insights about myself and the Enneagram in general. I think probably in my generation, John has had the most actual professional immersion in the Enneagram field of anybody that I know. Certainly, he worked for Russ Hudson, who wrote the book, or CO wrote the wisdom of the Enneagram with Don Riso. And he has also written his own book recently, which came out called the instinctual drives in the Enneagram, and has made a huge, in my opinion, contribution to the Enneagram field, really clarifying what it means when we talk about the instincts and why we talk about them with the Enneagram and inner work at all, John is just so, so clear in my experience, talking about his own inner perspective and what it's like to be him and what it's like to be each of the Enneagram types. He has that four quality of just like really being willing to get into the muck of the of the human inner world, and not just the muck of it, but to bring an incredible amount of clarity to what's really going on inside him and inside all of us. So please welcome my friend John. Welcome everyone to another interview. I am very delighted to be joined by my friend John lekovich. Today, John is leads with Enneagram four. He's also an Enneagram teacher, author of the book The instinctual drives the Enneagram which is really, really amazing, and I highly recommend you check it out. He also is a co host on the big hormone Enneagram podcast and an artist, and actually you can see some of his art behind him there on the walls. And he also leads trips into Egypt, and we might actually get into a little bit of that too in this conversation. So first of all, Hi, thanks for joining.
John Luckovich 2:52
Thank you, Josh for having me.
Josh Lavine 2:54
You're welcome. First of all, I'm curious what's it like to be introduced like that in a context like this, on an interview,
John Luckovich 3:05
that's a good and interesting question. There's a you know that always feels like uncomfortable. It's always, you know, because, like, the things that you're having, like you're introducing for me are both to give people some genuine context, but also because, like, I need to keep putting myself out there to keep, like, keeping this Enneagram thing going, yeah? So, yeah, it feels just sort of like silly, like it feels like, like a cartoon character,
Josh Lavine 3:46
right? Okay, so maybe I'll just start, actually, with the question I've started with everyone. So far as, can you share a little bit of your your Enneagram origin story?
John Luckovich 3:59
How I Learned the Enneagram, yeah. So I was when I was in high school, I was on a camping trip with like, a certain class, and I had two friends, Mary cloud and Colleen convoy, and we just started, kind of like, get to know each other, and basically just my friend Mary came out with John, you were four, and asked her, What the fuck was that? And she explained what a four was. And it was pretty shocking to me, because part of my experience and part of what you know about the four description is they, they feel unique. They feel like completely separate from other people and other the world. Like it's, it's like, this is not my plate. Like, like, what am I doing here? This is not it's like a big no. So to have something really to a T describe me. He was pretty fascinating and shocking and kind of sickening. And so, you know, I just got obsessed with it. From there, Mary's, Mary's dad had been friends with Dawn Riso in college, so she'd grown up with the ending cram. And so, you know, it was like it wasn't just somebody who had read a book and then was just saying what they saw in a book. It was like she'd lived with it her whole life. And so it was a very interesting it was just interesting because it was some time with somebody with with a lot of impressions about the Enneagram. So, yeah, so then I got really obsessed with just trying to understand it. And then very, very quickly I got interested in the career Jeff stuff, and that really enhanced my interest in the Enneagram personality, actually.
Josh Lavine 5:53
So let's see. Where did it go from here? There's so many directions we could go. You've been pretty immersed in the Enneagram world and field for a long time. I know you worked with Russ Hudson, actually, could you just take us on even just like bullet point the play by play, like, what have you done in the Enneagram world? Or what were you what were your jobs?
John Luckovich 6:20
It's funny because, and this is sort of, like, I forget a lot different things, and it's kind of an interesting, like, might be interesting as a three from, like I was, I was working with some threes recently, and like, we were talking about the difference between the difference of the experience of identity, between three and four, yeah. And how, like, you know, like, like, the three kind of will have this more like causal, cause and effect kind of way of of experiencing identity, whereas I think with four, it's, it's like, you know, for there's a sense that there's an innate, authentic self, and that is incongruent with the outer world that's separate from it, and that it is apart from it, but, and because of that, it doesn't quite feel it feels more like an eternal, unchanging Self, like part of the the structure of four is an over certainty of one's identity, but it's like not over certain, like mentally, it's like an over conviction of what identity feels like, what what feels like to be me, and how nothing outwardly nears it or relates to it. And so I'm always like the four struggle or whatever is always over, cling to the felt sense of who and what I am and feeling like I have to be in a kind of antagonistic or of some sort, like a negative relationship with the outer world to preserve my inner space. And so identity, therefore, doesn't have as much it's it doesn't it's sometimes I like, forget how my life went in a sequence, and it's kind of like a there's certain impressions that feel closer to self or less close, like it's almost like a like, like a globe, and getting deeper into the core of the globe or further away. Does that make
Josh Lavine 8:20
sense? It makes Yeah, you're saying it beautifully. So is the answer to that question I asked of even available to
John Luckovich 8:32
you? Yeah? So I mean, if I'm just gonna try to remember what I can remember, but yeah. So like, when I was in high school learning the Enneagram got really into it. I I I, yeah, I went to school in Olympia, Washington, and friends I made there had already been interested in the Gurdjieff stuff, independent of the Enneagram personality. And they were like, you gotta read and search the miraculous. You gotta get into this stuff. So I did, and I got very, you know, very early on, interested in Gurdjieff and tied into a lot of, like, I've always been interested in, like, like, esotericism and the occult and all this kind of weird stuff. And so the Gurdjieff stuff, like hermeticism, you know, synced up pretty well and pretty, you know, it's very hermetic. And so, so from there, I think I kept going to, like, Enneagram conferences. I international Enneagram Association conferences, and I, you know, I like, I made friends with, like Jessica dibb, who does a lot of breath work, and I had a breath work session, and it was like, Holy fuck, I'd have to study this, because it was so impactful. I moved to New York. A lot of friends already lived there, and I Jessica studies in Baltimore, but I really dislike Baltimore, so I would bust between New York and Baltimore for years, studying. Breath work, yeah, and eventually, if I'm remembering everything correctly, I was still doing, like, workshops and stuff for fun and things like that. But eventually, like, I was already friends with Russ, and Russ needed an assistant after bunch of shit happened to him, and so I became Ross assistant, and was doing my own Enneagram stuff for a while, like, at the same time, and, you know, would do coaching and things like this. We did some retreats together. Like I ended up teaching, like, his inner work retreats with, like, one of them, the thinking center retreat. And I can't remember some other stuff, but all this time I was also, like, working on an instinct book, my instinct book and, and so then, yeah, like, I stopped working with Russ during the pandemic, because he wasn't traveling. He didn't he didn't need somebody help him with travels anymore. So, so then, you know, I just published my book, and I've been just, I see clients for coaching and just Enneagram stuff. And, yeah, that's, that's kind of what I've been
Josh Lavine 11:09
up to, yeah, yeah. One of the things, one of the reasons that I was really excited to interview for the series, other than for a lot of reasons, but of, of all the people that I've learned the Enneagram from. You're one of my favorite and I've said to people that you know, when I want to get my ass kicked in terms of any like, if I want to get schooled in the Enneagram, I go to you and you've, you, you, you're You're welcome. Thank you. And I think part of what's fascinating to me about you is the way that you almost unselfconsciously, without it being a kind of like professional positioning, immerse yourself in this work and field as like a truly authentic expression. And I just wonder if you could speak to that,
John Luckovich 12:08
like, why I've gotten so interested in it. Yeah,
so, you know, I'm just, I'm super fascinated by the Enneagram, and I've always had a kind of intuitive way of, like a psychological way of thinking about people and thinking about interactions with people, and so then learning the Enneagram, and like getting my pattern laid very bare, you know, is was was fascinating and shocking. And for me, you know, I very quickly connected it to its origins. And, you know, it's like, Where'd the fucking thing come from? And you know that part of my fascination with Egypt is that I do think it goes all the way back to Egypt, and so this sense of the Enneagram being, being like a, you know, it's like a platonic form that says something about reality. Like to me, like, like, because I see the Enneagram and I see it in people. I see it in myself. I see the way it's working. And it's this, you know, we represent it as a geometric form, and it's like the world of hermeticism, the world of these cosmic laws that get represented all these different symbols that I always been interested in, rendered actual through myself, my own consciousness through other people. And it is this incredible and never ending tool to interpret everything through, and you know, for for people who are listening or watching or whatever that don't know Gurdjieff, you know, he originally taught the Enneagram, and it was not a personality system. It was a representation of cosmic laws, and it combines the Law of One, which is represented by the circle, the law of three, represented by the triangle, and the law of seven, which is like the law of process by the point 1428571, that's called the hexad. And when you put those symbols together, at least from a hermetic gurdjieffian point of view, what you're doing is you're seeing how the one thing, the phenomenon, whatever the phenomenon, the Enneagram is describing. And it's three fundamental forces, the active, negative and reconciling force. Those are like eternal elements of something. Those are something that is like outside of time or be, you know, the totality of a lifespan of something, and how those are rendered into distinct. Expressions within time, that 1428571, that symbol, and so it's, it's like such a fucking sacred to me, you know, like I felt like growing up like, like I grew up in Atlanta, Georgia, and I sort of felt like everything was like a giant mall, right? Like everything is, like this dead, lifeless artifice. And then, you know, and I, like, I'd always been interested in, like, spirituality, grew up Catholic and stuff like that. I always been interested in, like, in the weird parts of, like the Bible, like the Nephilim and all this stuff like this. And then I found this symbol, and it was real. And it was like this portal to escape a kind of crushing, the the sort of the crushing gloss of how everything's kind of gets, gets flattened. It was like, all of a sudden, it this, this expression of dimensionality and depth that was like everywhere. And it was just a matter of slightly altering one's perspective and looking with different eyes, not taking things at their surface value. And it decoded so much, you know, I because I'm going kind of self indulgently here, because I know that this is like a four interview, and so I know part of it's like to unpack what a four is about. And so, you know, I did feel extremely out of place and incongruent my whole life. And I didn't try to become congruent. I didn't I, you know, it was like, I have to be myself. But it was this sense that everything that I was encountering was like, foreign to me, in the sense of like, not self material. It was all like, I, like, I got stuck in the in the wrong universe and like that, like my family and my upbringing, everything did not fit. Everything was like a no like. And so to find something that contextualized that, and also context like that, I could bring, for example, like I remember being like, 18 or whatever, when I found the Enneagram, being like, Hey, Mom, I'm a four. And told her what a four was. And she was like, Oh, you've been that way your whole life. You never wanted to be here. You know, like, start bringing up baby pictures of me, like, looking like I didn't. I was, like, regretting being born, which I think is accurate. And so it was like a real it was like a real relief, in a certain way that was like, alright, like, there's, there's some way that, even if I'm the way I am, it, like it conforms to some sort of higher order or some kind of lawfulness or something like it, there's some way that my offness is actually a Part of it, rather than I'm just like, in the wrong universe. Does that make sense? Yeah, yeah. It
Josh Lavine 18:05
makes a lot of sense. And one thing that's interesting to me is, so this language we're using, it was, on the one hand, it was a relief to discover the Enneagram. On the other, it was sickening to discover your type, and that there was such a precise description of quote, unquote, who you are. Can you talk about that paradox? Yeah,
John Luckovich 18:24
I It doesn't quite strike me as a paradox, because on one hand, it's like, it is a relief to go, oh, there's, there's something. There's like a intelligence, in a sense you get very loosely, like an intelligence or a form or a pattern that that renders things in like the universe to make some sense, or that renders people's behaviors and choices and my own choices and behaviors making sense, and it helps me see what I'm really after and how I distort that through The lens of my habitual shit. But yeah, to see and to suffer how utterly mechanical our personalities are, and how little you know, it renders your sense of personhood very minuscule because you start seeing, Oh, I've almost made no real choices, like it's all been choices that are habitual based on preset reactions and responses and filters. And you know that, that there's very little me making a choice. It's it's a structure and it's a pattern. And so there's a deeply humiliating aspect of the Enneagram, if you're really seeing it right, where, you know, like, I'm a like, like, being a three, for example, it's like, I'm sure that, like, you know, there's a lot of the three stuff is like, sometimes you feel pretty good about yourself. And then, and you know, other. Times you don't, but like, sometimes you, like, threes can get high on their own supply, and it's like, oh, well, I'm actually just playing a pattern. And for four it's like, oh, I think I'm either uniquely special or uniquely suffering, and neither is really true. And so it's like, the things that even if they were negative, in the case of a four or whatever, like the pillars of your identity are actually unreliable or even fraudulent pillars, and so, you know, I'm not going to get rid of my fourness. You're gonna get rid of your threeness. But how do you find something in yourself that can use the threeness, that can use the forest and can use it without getting wholly absorbed in it or wholly rejecting of it, like, where else do you go to find or locate or collect identity? You know, I'm saying yes,
Josh Lavine 20:52
and what's that journey been like for you?
John Luckovich 20:59
So, you know, as I said earlier, like being a four, there is a kind of an over certainty, like, this is what my identity feels like, and that's not it, that's not it, that's not it, that's not it, that's not it. And so, you know, I was talking to my girlfriend Alexandra last night, who's in nine, and the problem with nine is that they sort of don't locate themselves, and they kind of see themselves in they can sort of see, like, I'm a little bit there and I'm a little bit there, a little bit there, whereas the four is the opposite, where, like, a predominant emotion is discussed, and it's like a no, it's like, You know? And so for me, it has been a lot of work in, you know, working on being in my body and being confident in my body. So, like, you know, identify as a sexual type. And so, you know, from being in a sexual image type, okay, like, I need to feel like I felt very disgusting just growing up like, just unattractive and disgusting. And I was like, I needed to at least feel confident about how my body looks to my like for myself. And, you know, hope, like, hopefully get a girlfriend and so, you know, like using my own types narcissism to be in my body more and to actually, you know? And that's just what like working out and stuff like that, is just one level of it. But then it later becomes, how do I actually be present in my body? How to actually sense my body? How do I actually experience the freedom being in my body, and when, as a four I'm in the body, my identity is less of like a very specific emotional, ping, or like, like, a very specific emotional beacon, and it will relax a little bit, and it's like, I don't have to be myself. I'm just being myself by being myself. And so it gives me like a it's, it's like, like my identity is less than a choke hold, and can relax, and from there, it's like, I can't. Like learning to be open is a big especially with a five wing and all that kind of shit. Like learning to be open to people, learning to be open to experiences, learning to realize how much I can handle from being just in my body like that, my emotions, in my mind, don't have to do all the work. And you know, it's for me. You know, like I've mentioned, the Gurdjieff work, which is very based in sensation and their movement practices that go along with the Gurdjieff work has been enormously powerful. Breath work has been enormously powerful. And when I'm more in my body, it helps me. You know, part of the issue with floors is they have a very narrow emotional range, despite how people normally think of fours as hashtag, all the feels. It's not all the feels. It's like these feels, this very limited range of feels, are me, and everything else is no and so learning to just be in the body helps me kind of not have this chronic sense of needing to cling to myself and needing to always be like in a war to be myself against the degrading forces of entropy outside of me, right? And that helps me actually, just like, be more kind and be less reactive, and to be willing to experience parts of my identity that have nothing to do with feeling, thinking or sensing that or like, is there something, a presence that can be with all those things? It's not those things that is something that is more intrinsically me than the pattern that I've normally taken to be myself. Does that make sense? Yes, it
Josh Lavine 24:52
does. I mean, so given your expertise and immersion in the film, there's so many questions I could ask in terms of just like. Having you teach more about the four, and I might actually want to go there a little bit, but I'm really curious to expand a little bit, just for anyone listening and wanting to make a distinction about the four or learn more about the four, is this narrow range of feelings you're describing, and I'd love for you to say a little more about that, and have that be distinct from how people normally think about fours, and then what your actual inner experience of, of that is like, and then kind of the follow on to that is when you done inner work, what, what's expanded for you? What's expanded with, yeah, like, in particular, like, are there certain feelings that now you allow yourself to feel that you didn't before or or parts or things of yourself that you discovered that are true to you that weren't true before.
John Luckovich 25:52
Yeah, all right, so in terms of narrowness, one way I would frame it or set it up is to contrast what four is doing with the other types of the heart center. So you know, two, three and four are all represent different way, universal ways that we know and express our identity, and that, depending on our type and our tri fix and on these things that we over emphasize, one of these ways of knowing and expressing our identity and so two represents the part of our identity that we know and express through relationship and connection. You know that being in some kind of connection with somebody brings out aspects of self that would not otherwise be actualized. Three, represents the part of our identity that we know and express through actualizing our potential. Like, you know, threes are really just have such a sensitivity for what's what people's potential is, and they're looking, and they know they have a lot of potential, and they're looking to actualize it and and express it. And I think that the struggle with three is like, early on, they kind of took a template from their family or their, you know, early life experience of what value would look like, and then growing to find out what's my sense of value, and how do I actualize that in the world, in terms of actually doing something and developing myself and these kind of things. So in contrast, four is the part of my identity that I know and express that is just singularly my own. Like, what is mine apart from everything else? What's mine apart from my upbringing? What is like this kind of like, like, eternal, just purely me, what is the kernel of self that is not influenced by anything else, and trying to hone in on that. And so, you know, from the person, from when the when the personality gets a hold of this project of being myself apart from anything else, the ego views it in terms of separating, usually through the affect of frustration and rejection and disgust, says that's not me, that's not me, that's not me, that's not me. And is the attention goes inward for four of trying to not only locate me, which I think a lot of, a lot of the four descriptions that are really actually just describing nine get caught in this kind of introspection without landing on anything. And I think that, I think that's nine, whereas four is, like, I've landed on something almost too hard, like I'm introspecting and I'm overly focused, but I'm I'm trying to grow, like, keep my grip really super fucking tight on my identity, and I'm doing that through habitual emotions that I'm and reactions and esthetic sensibility. What's my personal esthetic, whether that's expressed or creativity, or how I dress, or how I approach things like, the that, like, that esthetic is very, very core to a forced sense of what's mine, yeah, and because it's about my outlook, and it's about about what I'm bringing to my impressions, like, you know, like I paint, for example. And so, you know, painting doesn't come out of a void. It comes out of, oh, I'm receiving Impressions through things I'm interested in. And those things have to conform to a certain esthetic, and then they combine with something in me. And then some like creative in the case of a painter, paintings come out, but in the case of, you know, a musician, you know, come in differently. So anyway, the emotional range and the esthetic range can be very narrow, because in the outer life, there's very little that seems to speak to or that it can extract from outer life that can relate to this thing, that inevitably, on some level, is not going to relate to anything. Because again, it's it's. Trying to be uniquely my own, but it's the ego trying to make this happen. So it's, it's doing that through rejecting and, you know, the emotional Rangers, like, you know, fours are sensitive, but that gets overplayed so much in the Enneagram that we forget that, like, probably the most sensitive type is nine, right? So a lot of nines think they're fours, yeah. So a lot of at least, like you could, I think comparing who's the most sensitive is, is doesn't make a lot of sense, but the way fours will deal with their sensitivity, it's gonna be very different how a nine deals with their sensitivity, and the way four is going to deal with their sensitivity is almost um filtering everything through this narrow range of frustration and negativity and not me. And maybe a few things come in that feel like that resonates with me, or I can let that in somewhat, but everything else is getting fresh is filtered through frustration. And so, you know, being with Alexandra, my, my nine, she's been making some interesting comments on me and my, my sense of being an image type. And she was like, Oh, I couldn't understand you as like, like, I know that your heart type, but I couldn't understand what a force image is. And I'm not saying this is the end all. Sorry, no,
Josh Lavine 31:29
I'm just, I'm vibing on this point. I'm curious where this is gonna go. Yeah, see, see,
John Luckovich 31:34
I was like, it's not like, the end all, be all. This is like, what a forest image is about. But at least a lot of the way my image functions is as a rejection of things that's very harsh and very kind of like, Don't fuck with me. And kind of like, Alexandra uses the term emotional aggression for four like, which I think is very accurate. There's like, a lot of emotional like, no and like, cut things down and attack. But it's done as a kind of like, Don't fuck with me, because underneath there's a lot of sensitivity. And so this the what happens with fours when they become less healthy is that fewer and fewer things seem like they have any relationship to my inner world, and I have to keep giving all my attention to my inner world. And it's like I whittle away the the ground I have to stand on to feel like myself and to feel like I'm giving attention to myself. And so as far as get less healthy, like they get very unable to function in a practical way, unable to focus on anything except for their own reactions and patterns and thoughts they're having about their reactions, which are creating more reactions. And it becomes a very extremely narrow sense of self with extremely narrow emotional range and extremely limited sense of what I can do or who I can be. And so you know, again, to contrast it with nine because that's the common mistake. Is it like nines can still go on autopilot, even if they're very depressed, whereas fours have this kind of emotional violence they start inflicting on themselves and other people. And it kind of inability to, like, get outside themselves enough to function, right? So does that make sense? It
Josh Lavine 33:21
does, yeah. Can you talk too about the image, like the external gaze on the four and how that functions as a heart type, like we talked about two of the three, like wanting to be seen in a certain particular way by other people?
Unknown Speaker 33:35
Yeah.
Josh Lavine 33:37
How do you experience
John Luckovich 33:39
that? So you know, for for listeners like you can kind of do it like a math equation, where you put all the triadics together. So four is a heart type or an image type that is withdrawn and reactive and frustration. And so I have the way that three has a desire to show their sense of you know, being successful or being valuable. Four has its way. I want to show you that I'm different. I'm on a different page, I'm withdrawn, I'm frustrated. I'm showing you my negativity. I'm showing you that I'm not like you. I'm showing you that I'm apart from you, and I might even be showing you who I am, but I'm definitely showing you we're not on the same page. And, you know, the image is like, we think of images like, oh, how? You know, like, a fake thing that you want to uphold, and it's not like I don't think that's true for anything. I think it can get that way for the image types. But I think it starts out as trying to show you who I am. And I think for four it is showing you I'm I'm not like you, and it's not a it's not like a personal. Thing. It's like, I'm I'm I'm in a like, I'm in my own zone. I'm not in your zone, I'm not in the world zone. I'm just in my own zone. So even if I have a three wing, it's still, it's like, this is my own thing over here, that I'm doing, that I'm trying to represent. And if you can meet me in my own unique world, I can meet you so like you know, as Josh you and I as friends, like, I don't feel like you're trying to get me to be like you. I don't feel like you're getting trying to get me to be any different than I am. I feel like you have a lot of respect for whatever you might be perceiving as my identity or my vibe or whatever, and you're just, like, really accepting of it. And so like, you know, I really I appreciate that, and my friends, like it's there's no weird negotiation with trying to get me to be different or express myself differently than I am. Whereas I think fours have this natural allergy to anybody that's going to try to make an attempt to get them to be on the same page. And I think a lot of the identity, or the the image for a four is to show you, right off the bat, I'm not like, it's kind of like, there's, there's a It's not only show you like, like, Okay, here's a little bit of my unique esthetic or vibe, and here is, like, some of the attitude I'm feeling and that I'm different. It's also to get you to say or get to get you to recognize that if you try to fight me, to get me to be on the same page as you you're gonna lose. Does that make sense? Yeah.
Josh Lavine 36:39
Yeah, it does. Huh? So it's kind of, sorry, no, you go, go ahead.
John Luckovich 36:46
Yeah. So there's, there's, it's, it's. So a lot of times the for esthetic is not just, oh, they have a very creative esthetic outlook. It's also wrapped in on this, like, kind of middle finger that's also like, I'm very creative, but I'm also aloof. And I'm not going to give you very much, you know,
Josh Lavine 37:01
I'm saying yes, yeah, and so that speaks to the kind of the natural sense of one of the words that I think is is useful, that is often associated with force, is a sense of alienation or inner isolation, or something like that. I just want to check in right now. Like, are you experiencing, how are you experiencing yourself or your forests right now? Or are you,
John Luckovich 37:30
I'm conscious of wanting listeners to, like, get what a four is, right? Uh huh, yeah, and distinguish it from what I think is like the common misunderstanding of four that's like, ubiquitous throughout through Enneagram understanding, yes, so I'm really kind of like, I keep kind of, I catch myself keep referring to, keep referring back to like. So this is like, what's commonly thought to be or understood or identified as four. I'm like, but no, it's over here. It's, it's this thing, not that thing, right? And that's super for bullshit to be like, no, no, no, and to contrast it with whatever is commonly understood, or what, or what I think is commonly understood. Does that make sense? Yes, it does. And
Josh Lavine 38:20
I'm also, I mean, there's a five thing in it too, the sort of, sort of, just yeah, the frustration with the ignorant masses kind of thing, yeah. To bring in a word that I really like with respect to four, and this, actually, word that you've taught me about a lot, is the word depth. And so actually, our conversation, which we've at this point now, spoken someone at length about when I was coming up with kind of, you know, how everyone has to have their own names for the types they're going to be a teacher, because the whole copyright thing, I was thinking about naming the type four, and I we had a text conversation. I was like, Well, you know, the identity seeker was, and I was naming each type, the seeker of something. It's like the two is a love seeker, through as a value seeker. And I said for potentially identity seeker, and you were like, no, no, because the four, as we've just been describing, is not actually seeking an identity. They're already certain of themselves. And so what the what they are seeking those depth and just tying a couple, connecting a couple dots like this way that you described, it felt like growing up in Atlanta, everything was a shopping mall. It was just sort of this glossy flatness. And what you were yearning for was maybe, and I'm putting words in your mouth, I'd like for you to kind of correct me for or give some texture to this. But depth itself. And can you describe what it how do you know something is deep? What is depth for you? And just give some words around that idea,
John Luckovich 39:49
yes. So yeah, I you brought up, let's see. I'm trying not to play too much into my own floor pattern. But like, yeah. I mean, I'll just go for it, because whatever, sure, yeah, like, you're like, the thing about identity seeker, it's like, there is, like, there's an over certainty of identity. But the identity of four is is intuitively felt to be within depth, which is something that you can't look at, you can't like, like, even one's own identity, you can't, like, say, like, like, I mean, the mistake force gets into is trying to put their own identity into a box so they can, kind of, like, hold on to it in a very objectifying way. They self objectify, and they put themselves into a corner. And so when a four is actually you'd say, healthy or present and experiencing their identity. It's not as this grasping for it. It's as an experience that unfolds. And you know, I was, I just got back from Egypt, Russ Hudson and I did like, three week tour of Egypt from the symbolist Enneagram, fourth way perspective. And you know, there are a lot more pyramids than the three great pyramids. And when you go into like, one of these fifth dynasty small pyramids, you know, you've got this like shaft that you need to go down into the underground that's like, you know, usually, like, a meter by meter height and width, and it goes down quite deep sometimes. And they recommend that when you go down, that you go backwards. And so as you're going backwards, you're you're hunched down, and what you're seeing is like, you know, you start at the surface, where you see outside, you see everybody else you're around with, and you go backwards into the darkness, deeper and deeper and deeper, and the light gets further and further away. And I think that's a good metaphor for depth, in the sense that you can't look at it and go, this is deep. You can it's kind of like you just have to back up into it. And I think that's true with essence is like it's something you back up into because you can't objectify it and kind of bring it into the world of the personality, into the world of objects. It's something that's like an experience. And so four makes that mistake, where I feel intuitively that my identity is depth, like it's it's of depth itself, like it is a rather than a thing. It is a dimension of experience. It's like, you know, when we are present, when we after, like when we meditate, or right after we do inner work practice, there is a sense that there's a sense of, like, a kind of a saturation of one's experience. Like one's impressions feel saturated. They feel pregnant with meaning. They feel like there's some other thing that they are an expression of, like, some deeper thing that you can't quite nail or point to, but it's like it's evocative of a of something mysterious, something meaningful, something real. There's these like qualities that we associate with depth and like, you know, when we like, we were to like encounter like a work of art or something, whether it's a film or music or a painting, that seems to have depth to it. It often has a lot of obscurity. It has a lot of contradiction. It has a lot of it's like a glimpse of something that you can't normally perceive in a sort of a passive, automatic way. It's like something that you have to reach for. And so I think that there's something about what depth means for four that is in this sense of mystery, the sense of reaching, this sense of, you know, like something that's beautiful, that's not just pretty, like, pretty is a kind of its own thing, but like a beauty that kind of moves your soul is, like, evocative of some kind of deeper order, or deeper something happening on, like, there's something else happening here is like the thing that depth feels like. And so to tap into that something else is like, feels like, really core to what my identity is about, and my heart. And so as a four, when you're, like, having to do taxes and, like, build a website, it feels like grueling, hellish, you know, being taken away from what's really real and important and just absolutely, like a, like, absolutely artificial and so. So part of what it means to learn to actually be in touch with your identity and your depth is to relax that grasping and relax the. Rejection that feels like it's a part of that grasping, like rejecting everything to find me. It's like when I can have like, a kind of a faith in my inner life and a capacity to be present in body, heart and mind, with my sensation, with my feeling, with my perception, I start to register that there is a presence here that is me that is deeper than the outward phenomenon of my choices and my, you know, like ways that I'm humiliating and inadequate and fucked up and stupid and lacking fours have a certain like sense of like, of like, wanting to be like it like an almost like otherworldly being. And when you realize you really just own like that you're a shitting, farting, you know, snotty human you make dumb jokes, and you say dumb things. And it's like, because, like all those, those things are not actually you, and any you don't have to take that as a concept. You can start to practice that as an experience through the work of inner work and start to have a sense of what I'm looking for is not going to be actualized through rejecting it's not going to be actualized through holding on to a certain sense of self. It's like that self is here no matter what, and it's actually the neglect of my inner work that makes that sense of self feel like it's something I have to fight for, instead of something I just am and just trusting in. Yeah, I think that starts to really expand a force sense that they exist in the world and can exist in the world, and they can be themselves. And there's there. There's always a separation, I think, intrinsically, but it's a separation that can be held together as a with presence, with a third force, rather than as an antagonism between myself and the world. Does that make
Josh Lavine 47:12
sense? Yeah, it does. And I want to bring this a little bit to kind of rubber meets the road, for example, with your book, and one of the things so just for people listening. So John, you wrote, you wrote this book. It's called the instinctual drives in the Enneagram. We could, at some point be interesting to get into the instincts a little bit. And what drew you to that is
John Luckovich 47:29
this video gonna be shown to people. Yeah, yeah.
Josh Lavine 47:31
Check it out. That's the book you can get on Amazon. It's fucking amazing. It's really, really, really good. Thank you. And what's interesting to me, in our last conversation before this call, we were talking about, like, how to, how to, kind of get the book out there more. And there's the sense of, like, the things that you would have to do, to do that are either not immediately available or they would feel exhausting, and actually, even just to or, like we've talked a little bit in the past about the fours, quote, unquote, resistance to functioning, and maybe even within kind of grounding it in your experience of of writing and promoting this book, could you talk a little bit about what that experience is
John Luckovich 48:19
like for you? Yeah, so, so when I started working for Russ, and, you know, we talked about like we, you know, we talked about like, our ideas of what we'd like to do in the future, and that really, none of them ever came to fruition, but, or very few of them. But, you know, we were like, yeah, we'll teach together, and we'll write books together and stuff like this. And you know, I was immediately very interested in doing some kind of like book on like the higher centers, the higher intellectual center and higher emotional center, or, like, some, like, tackling some of, like, the deeper spirituality and and I was like, you know, I thought, oh, maybe this will be cool. And I had sort of a vague sense of what it was. And then I was like, You know what? You know, maybe that's a project we can do together. But you know, I'll just like, come out real quick with an instinct book. Because, you know, like, I know the instincts really well. And it'll be something like, it'll be good to have my own thing. And, you know, shockingly, there wasn't, like, any just book straight up dedicated to the instincts. And I thought they were super rich experience, thing, you know, thing, and I had a couple of experiences that sort of clued me into like, how powerful the instincts were. So for one thing, I always thought they were not very well defined. And like I immediately recognized that I was a sexual instinct, but everybody would have. Uh, referring to sexual instinct in a very social way. Of like, I like one on one conversations and one on one relating. And I was like, I'm kind of obsessed with sexuality and sexual attractiveness and like, if there's sexual interest, and I was like, I need to understand this. And so I had, like a I had, like a non ordinary experience facilitated by MDMA, where I really had this very clear experience of how afraid I was of not being sexually attractive. And I thought, holy shit, this is the most superficial shit I could imagine. And this was a core, if not the core, fear of mine, what was super so I launched myself into all kinds of research in biology, which I don't you know I was, like, know nothing about and evolutionary psychology and anthropology and like, just trying to understand, like, what, what in nature would make any sense of what I was experiencing as a motivating fear of mine. And as I was doing this, you know, I'm around people with other instinctual types. My parents are self prize types. You know, I have a lot of social types in my life. And being a four and being annoyed easily, I was like, What's annoying me about these people, and using that as also a supplement to kind of and myself, what's annoying me about myself and other sexual types? And so I just did a ton of research, and it just started to open up. Oh my god, it's like, it's not just that the instincts are not well defined. They're running the show so much more than I realized. Running me so much more than I realized. I was seeing more and more of just stuff I thought was human. Was sexual instinct and being identified with it, and even just the sense of, first of all, what are the instinctual drives? Why do we use them in the context of the Enneagram? And like that was not really addressed anywhere. And so, you know, the reason that we bring in anything like the instincts into the engram is because, like our type, we become identified with the instincts. And that identification creates these different patterns of attention, which create different patterns of of experiencing oneself and reactivity. And so that my book eventually, like you know, my premise, is basically that the you know, the core of our self, so to speak, is our the is our Enneagram types, essential quality, you know, like that, that our type is related to essence, but that the core of our ego, the core of our our being identified with our personality, is instinct, and that we take our sense of self to be based on getting certain outcomes related to our instincts. And so writing the book was very difficult, yet it was still enjoyable, because I'm learning a lot, and I don't feel like I'm very articulate, like I'm a little more articulate here, but like I have my own fucking podcast, and I'll listen back, and I can't believe I can't form sentences. And so having to write and rewrite, rewrite and Josh was like, a great help. You had your editing was like, really, really vital for me. And finding phrases to go to my like into intuitions and impressions was, like, really a struggle. So editing was a huge thing. But yeah, it was like fun because it was, like, it was the spiritual book I kind of wanted to write ended up being the instinct book, and because the instincts recontextualized everything I knew about the Enneagram. So that was all kind of fun. Editing sucked, but it was still creative. But man, trying to like, like, I've barely put any effort into promoting it or getting it out there, and every time I do it's like, I can't imagine anybody giving a shit about the book, or anybody like, or, or if, if anybody saw like, I ignore advertisements. And so if anybody saw an advertisement, I would just assume they just ignore it, and I wasting my money. Or, you know, these kinds of thoughts, or I'm like, oh, probably everybody who's like, been interested in, who'd be interested in this book, has probably already heard about it, you know, these kinds of inner talks or whatever. And I also just have this, like, I've been trying to set, like I got, like, a Google workstation or something like that, okay, set up, and I can't get the email activated, and it's been like, months, and I feel like, so, so. Stupid. And I like, like, my attention to focus on these, like, very technical, like, things like that are very structured. And then it's like, I mean, a sense, I guess, as I'm saying it out loud, it's like, it's almost things that ask me to be on someone or something else's structure rather than my own structure. Good way. It starts like, it's like, my, my my inner vision gets blurry, my ability to hold things gets very loose. And it's like, it's like a really undeveloped skill. And it's like, yeah, so the advertising thing, part of it too, is like, putting myself out there, you know, I kind of feel like, yeah, I wrote this book. You should check it out. Maybe you want to, you know, that's, that's like, Yeah, I'm super interested in the ideas. But I'm also kind of like, I think, like, you know, my experience of like, as a three, I think, you know, like, I've seen you the way that you're like, oh, I can immediately see how someone else would benefit from this. Like, like, you can sort of see, like, oh, the value of a thing, right? And for me, I'm like, this is very relevant to myself, and maybe it's relevant to you, but maybe it's a waste of time. And, like, you know, actually, even though I think the book is really good and I believe in it, and, like, I like, the idea is, like, I'm not, like, enlightened, I'm some fucking piece of shit still, and I fuck up all the time, and I'm very asleep. And, you know, actually, you know, who knows if it's even valuable for anybody that's like, that's, that's what goes on all the time, right?
Josh Lavine 56:44
Something I just also want to point out, just as a commentary on what you just said, is the way that we talk about fours being very comfortable, kind of revealing their this is probably even too light of a word, but their shadow, their shadow side, like the fact that you're just how happy, like, no problem just saying, Yeah, I'm a piece of shit. I'm pretty sleeve and I'm, you know, like, that's, that's not a three talking, you know what I'm saying,
Unknown Speaker 57:10
right?
Josh Lavine 57:15
Anyway, but yeah, I mean, the image, actually that came to me as you were talking, was the the backing into the pyramid image. It's like, it's like, some it's like, that's where you want to be, is the it's like, I want to keep backing further and further into this thing and and the process of writing the book was also a process of own, of your own kind of self discovery, and also discovery the topic itself. So we're sort of in that four or five wing kind of area, and then it's like, you, you wrote it, and then you're kind of just trying to, like, toss it all the way back up the tunnel so it just lands outside. You know,
John Luckovich 57:53
that's good, yeah,
Josh Lavine 57:55
you know, without, without, like, the whole process of, like, Fuck, I gotta get all the way back out to the world. You know, where people are.
John Luckovich 58:04
Sun is too bright out there. You know,
Josh Lavine 58:12
it's fascinating to me. I have to I personally, I mean as a three, and also as a person who is your friend, and also a person who believes in what you've written and the importance of it. I have the sense of like wanting to actualize it, like I want people to read this book. I almost feel like I have more of that sense than you do.
John Luckovich 58:32
I feel like you do too.
Josh Lavine 58:37
Yeah, it's interesting to me. Um, all right, cool. So we'll probably come to a close team, but I want to just explore a couple other things about the four. One thing that's coming to mind is we talk about, how do I put this? The the way that fours are comfortable with other people's shadow material, almost want to hang out with that more than the kind of thing that like their normal patterns or something. Do you know what I'm talking about, and this is something of an Enneagram cliche, but I but I think it's a valuable kind of anchor point. Is that fours are more comfortable the human sort of the dark side of the human emotional realm than any other type. And this is potentially blurry territory between nine and four too. But I think a lot of fours become therapists for this reason. They like, they like doing this kind of inner exploration kind of work. Can you just talk about like the experience of of of depth versus superficiality in other people and the and the what words you'd put like, is it willingness to sit with other people's shadow pain, or is it like a hunger for it? Is it like, do you feel more drawn to that than other things? Or do. And this is a little bit coming from a social lens too, but I'm curious to if you have any language for it.
John Luckovich 1:00:09
So, you know, the word authenticity gets thrown around a lot for four and I think it gets misunderstood a lot, like people will, you know, okay, I'm doing my fourth thing, but, like making the distinctions. But you know, like you could say six is equally as interested, you know, is authenticity might even be a bigger buzzword for six, because they want to know what's, what's true and real. Authenticity is the name of the virtue for three, you know, it's like, about like, when they're really, like, streaming from their heart as a four you know, I'm always doing that, walking into the walking into the pyramid, and trying to locate and express myself from my inner, innermost sense of identity as best I can. You know, there's obviously a compromise. It's like speaking versus text message, right? Like I can only it's like trying to, trying to, trying to text instead of actually talk. But because you are as a force so trained in that, there is a there's an awareness of when people are doing that themselves, when they're actually speaking from themselves, versus speaking to get you to feel a certain way about them, or speaking to have some other agenda or to like you're like. It just it's very easy to see people's motivations, and even if it's not always clear why they're doing something. The resonance. There's a sensitivity to whether people are resonating or not with with themselves. Yeah. And so, yeah and so it's not necessarily that, like, I'm like, give me your pain, you know. But people's pain is usually indicative of where their heart really is, you know, like, you know, when I, when I teach about the heart center, you know, I talk about how, like, we're not in control of our hearts, like the the we that we think we are is more like a custodian or a guardian or a guide for our hearts. And you know, the reason that we resist our hearts so much is because our hearts get affected by something, and it changes our whole identity, you know, like we fall in love dramatically, and, oh, shit, now my whole outer life has to conform to this feeling, this, no this, this longing in my heart, and so people put a lot of energy into making their lives and their self expression come from an ego driven need to accomplish certain things that help them get their instinctual needs met, whether it's their lifestyle, whether It's getting the right sexual partner or whether it's having the right kind of connections or belonging. You know, it's like that's the agenda. But when people are revealing what gives them pain and where their pain is, there is a way that their heart comes more into the four, and it's not like the gushy, needy I want to touch you and be touched by you heart. It's just like a revelation of who and what I am, and I always really value that, and I'm really moved by that. And it's funny that you're bringing this up, because I'm just thinking like I was talking to a client of mine a couple days ago, she gave me the feedback that based on my quality of being on the podcast and my my visual esthetic, she was very intimidated to approach working with me and but then actually finds me very like soft and easy and gentle and kind when we're talking about all this stuff. And it's like, kind of what we spoke to earlier, of that image of the four is like this kind of harsh, no, no, no, no, no thing, because I'm trying to put forward like, what I what I think at least, is deep and real. And, you know, in every four can, myself included, can be skewed on what we think we're looking for when it comes to depth. Like, I could have the wrong idea of what depth looks like or is, but still, that's the aim. And so, yeah, there's when people are just like, are just real about their shit and like, like, for example, you and I are being friends. Is a three and a four. Like, when my sister, my my younger sister is a three, one of my sisters and we didn't get along at all because I felt like she was always putting forward. An image. And I was always doing the opposite of trying to undermine the image in some way. Yeah, and like, so like, what I have appreciated, like, really quickly about you, and from a context of having historically not gotten along with some threes, is like, you're just very like, this is what I'm about. This is what I'm into. And you're very like, just earnest with what you're what you don't like, and you know, you're, you're just like, you're just, you're just being yourself, you know, and and it like, part of the the misconceptions within the Enneagram world is that threes can't be themselves. And it's not true at all. It's just at all. It's people just project their own falsity onto type three. But it's like, you know, it's like, it's three, it's just naturally enthusiastic about certain things, and there's certain turned on by certain things. And it's like, whatever. And it's like, you're just being really real about who you are. And it's like, all that shit is really great when people have the courage to just show like, you know, we talked about stuff that, like, like, like, you have some music preferences that, like, sometimes you're a little bit shy about, right? Yeah, like, some pop music and stuff that you're like, I just like this, and I'm like, That's fucking great, you know? Like, let's you're not trying to filter anything. You're just trying to be like, This is who I am. And like, it doesn't mean that every time two people who show each other who they are gonna like each other, but like, I just like you, and you seem to like me. And it's like, just standing in the ground of your own stuff is like that, I think, is where, what really, I think for that's like what fours really appreciate. And I think that pain is, is, I think, I think I speak human myself, I feel like I'm in a lot of pain by just existing. And what like, even though I'm like a fucking privileged white guy who has an externally very great life like I can find endless things to suffer about. And I do find, like, when we're all honest, that like living itself is very painful. And so I think pain and suffering and dark emotions or whatever are just a way that we can all get, like, get to what we really are, and not what we're trying to be, and not what we're hoping for, but just like, where we're actually at is all that makes sense. It
Josh Lavine 1:07:14
does. Yeah, I have one other question for you this you've, you've ended each of your in my in my experience, very clear explanations of these things with the question, Does that make sense? What's that about?
John Luckovich 1:07:33
I think it's two things. I think one, I mean, I am social blind, and so I don't have a good reading for what lands with people and like, I go into like, a little like, when I'm eight. Like, I can tell when I'm, like, listening to my like, I'll sometimes listen to our podcast episodes back and and I can tell when I am I had a very hard time like, like being out and sort of, like, we just did a, we just an episode on the tinder swindler documentary, okay, and like, I'm being more playful and joking, but I'm not as, like, in an introspective space, and I can feel how I can barely land sentences, and I don't have A sense of, like timing with other people and flow. And so when I feel like I'm able to communicate more clearly, it is kind of like something has to open me, and I can kind of like stream, like, from something inside. And when I was a kid, like, nobody fucking understood what I was saying, and they would like, like, my parents would ask me if I was schizophrenic, and I think in images. So it doesn't always come to like words easily. And so there was a lot of just, I mean, just as you know, that's like, kind of default as a four is like, I'm not going to be understood. It's not like, Oh, nobody understands me. It's like, the default is no one would or could understand you, so I do just making sure that what I'm saying when I'm streaming is actually, like, relevant, communicated is important,
Josh Lavine 1:09:17
right? I'm also hearing some of the social blind stuff there too, yeah, like, like, it's almost like this the sense, the sensory experience of knowing you're on the same page as someone is not readily available to you exactly. Yeah, that's fascinating. Yeah, cool. Well, this is Rich as always, when I talk to you, I'm curious, what has this been like for you? Uh,
John Luckovich 1:09:50
you know, I actually like, I'm I'm actually pretty touched that you like that, like we did this because, um. I don't know, it's been kind of nice to like
give words to my experience, and I've appreciated your curiosity about my experience. And, yeah, I'm actually getting emotional. Yeah, I'm very grateful. I'm grateful for our friendship, and I guess it's helped me. You know, there's been a lot of changes in my life with the book and other things, and even just my own understanding of how to apply the Enneagram to my own experience. And so this was, like, helpful to kind of like, take some of that stuff and and kind of go over over myself again, in a way which is like it feels kind of silly being feels a little self indulgent, and I feel a little silly about like, the significance of talking about myself, but it's been actually really, really nice for me. So appreciate Josh, cool. Yeah, you're
Josh Lavine 1:11:16
welcome. Yeah. I just want to share too that I think I just have this, I mean, this is, like my actual fucking feeling. I really just, I want people to to know you and your work and and like who you are and so, and I think that your contributions to the to the Enneagram, and just the whole fucking thing of inner work and spirituality are very important, as I've told you before. And so I was actually nervous that you would say no to this because, because I don't know what you're up to or, you know, sometimes you can be kind of like a cat, you know, like I'm not sure when you're over there in that world of yours?
Unknown Speaker 1:12:05
Yeah, yeah.
Josh Lavine 1:12:08
But no, I mean, I was, I mean, dude, I was just learned so much from you. And, yeah, it's amazing. I mean, it just really, I mean, we've lived such different lives, and it's like finding that wormhole between our inner universes to like, connect and kind of learn from each other has been very, very valuable for me. So yeah, same
John Luckovich 1:12:27
me too. I really appreciate our friendship, and I like, I really feel your like support of me, and like the way you've helped me out has been really monumental. And so, love you, Josh, Love
Josh Lavine 1:12:39
you too. Man, all right. Man, well, let's, Uh, let's call it there you.
