Ikram 0:00
Seven is not exactly positive. I think a better way to think about it, or at least how I think about it, is, it's like, I'm I more have an issue with metabolizing negativity, right? And what that, what that causes, is like, you basically just procrastinate darkness. You're trying to reframe constantly what's going on in your life, or like in the world, or whatever. And that takes up a lot of energy, and it does cause anxiety, and it does cause you to whatever. That's when the skimming like comes into play. Welcome
Josh Lavine 0:33
to another episode of what it's like to be you. My name is Josh Lavine. Your host, this is a show where I interview people about their experience as their Enneagram type Today, my guest is Ikram Ali. She is a type seven who does community work and works also in local politics. And I want to set this conversation up by framing it in terms of what we sometimes call in the Enneagram the harmonic groups. So the harmonic groups are three groups of three, just like there always are in the Enneagram. We have the our emotional realness triad, the competence triad and the positive outlook triad. Seven is a positive outlook type. But let's start with the emotional realness triad. So we have the four, six and eight emotional realness, which have a psychological need to look under the surface of things, to call it like they see it, to quote, unquote, be real. And they want to also be met by a certain kind of realness in you. That's what settles their own nervous system. We have the competence types, the one, three and five, which have a psychological need to be, quote, unquote, sober, objective, reasonable, to diagnose cleanly situations and come up with solutions. And we also have the positive alloc types, which have a psychological need to you might say, Look on the bright side of something, or hold in their head the positive vision of something, or the light at the end of the tunnel. So that's the 297 and you can think of the harmonic triads as the ways that we approach conflict and difficulty in our lives and our relationships. I love these conversations that contradict stereotypes that we have of the Enneagram types. And this conversation really did that for me, in part, because we focused a lot on negativity itself. And there was a big part of the conversation. We talked about a time in which Ikram was depressed, and how she worked through that depression, and how, in a sense, it inspired and informed a huge part of her professional trajectory. And we also talk about aspects of the Enneagram that are dark and expose the shadow side of things, and how she approaches and deals with that. And in the context of all that, just how she holds negativity, how she experiences negativity and and experiences being a seven in the context of seeing a lot of negativity in her world. Really, really enjoyed this conversation, and I respect Ikram a lot for her capacity, in real time to go into the territory that we went in this conversation. So without further ado, please welcome my new friend Ikram. Welcome everyone to another interview. I am really excited to be with my new friend Ikram today. Ikram is a social, sexual, seven, seven with a six wing, and try fix 793, so hello. How are you?
Ikram 3:11
Hey, what's going on?
Josh Lavine 3:13
Good. Let's start with can you share with us your Enneagram origin story. And I know that you kind of got into it via Personality Typing from a whole different other system. So just how did you get into Personality Typing in general? And then how did you find
Ikram 3:33
the Enneagram? It's a long story. I think I've always just been very interested in archetypes. I wonder if that's a head type thing, just like finding safety and concepts. So I was really into astrology as, like, a little kid. And I would read, like, all the Cosmo magazines and whatever. I'm a cancer, you know, but obviously, like, I didn't really, like, ever understand it fully, so that was to the side, or whatever. And then I got into, like, palm reading. I got into everything, you know, anything that would like help me kind of understand people, but nothing ever really quite fit. And then I think in high school, I found MBTI got into that that didn't quite fit, whatever. I couldn't really figure it out. And then randomly, I think I was, must have been like, 2021 I was, like, watching a YouTuber, and then they mentioned the Enneagram, and they linked a podcast. I think they they linked like, Ian krones podcast. I know the in your grammar guys are, like, not the biggest fans of him, but I did like, I went through the entire thing, really interesting. Um, the reason I was so interested in personality type is I was actually trying to figure out my entire family, like, especially my mom, who's, like, this enigma to me. You know, she's a very, like, powerful person, but really sweet and also kind of mean and whatever. And then I remember when I. Um, really, like, bought into the Enneagram is when they did the description of eight. I was like, That's my freaking mom. Like, holy shit. And yeah, but I could never really land for my type. And then fast forward, years later, I I just stumbled onto the Facebook group for new grammar. And then that's when everything clicked
Josh Lavine 5:22
for me. This could be the lens that I'm bringing to this conversation, just because I have a preconceived idea of seven, but I am tuning into this word, like stumbling onto or like the way that you kind of dabbled in astrology and MBTI, and then you find the Enneagram, and it's kind of like it sounds like you kind of taste tested a bunch of different things. And then, yeah,
Ikram 5:46
I guess so, yeah, yeah. I think it's just wildly interesting. You know, everyone knows that people are fucking weird, and I never really understood exactly why we are the way we are. And I yeah, it's just been like something that's always been worrying in the background, like, what the fuck is I find people very beautiful and fascinating and complex. And I know a lot of people find themselves really boring, which is interesting to me, because I I feel like even the boring people are fucking really interesting and their boringness. So yeah, I guess I definitely dabbled, because I also have this thing where, like, just things sometimes click for me, and nothing was really clicking, but I knew that there was something there. So yeah, I kind of landed on the enneagrammer, and I'm kind of staying here and this other system ops, because I feel like those two things, like, I can tell that they're legit,
Josh Lavine 6:47
yeah, uh huh. So how deep Have you gone? And, like, where are you at with the with either either of those systems or both of them, and and your own journey and understanding what typology is.
Ikram 7:06
Um, so when I did my initial deep dive on the Enneagram, I actually did go pretty intense. I think I read every freaking published book I could find, you know my city, and I read, I listened to all the podcasts
Josh Lavine 7:20
and all that on ops, or the Enneagram.
Ikram 7:22
The Enneagram ops, it doesn't have anything published I
Josh Lavine 7:25
see. Okay, got it, um, but since so it really, it really captured you. But that's, I find that interesting, yeah, really. I
Ikram 7:35
thought about flying out to this huge meetup in Italy, uh, that big conference, like the E, the IEA, whatever I'm probably, yeah, yeah, um, yeah, it did. It did really capture my attention. Oh. The other thing is, my friend, my best friend in the freaking world, is this really crazy, unique human being. And I noticed that, like, the first day I ever met her, I think I we met in social studies class, and she gave us speech, whatever she was, really, really quiet. Never talks like whatever, but she gave the speech and was so freaking, so freaking fascinating, so beautiful, and I knew that her brain worked in a way that I've never seen before, like a like, I've never seen somebody so fucking intelligent, smart, whatever, and also, like, very differentiated. And so yeah, after getting to the Enneagram, seeing my mom's an eight, I realized she's a five, and that, like that also was a huge thing. And she's, she got typed in any grammar as well, and she's like, a 541, so, yeah, it's just, it makes me understand really complex people that I love a lot. And I think I don't know if it's a head type thing. I'm almost positive it's a head type thing, but I find like safety and concepts and being able to understand things. I take it like, I don't know. It's just, I find it beautiful. So,
Josh Lavine 8:55
yeah, okay, there's a few things about just your journey with typology itself that is interesting to me, from the point of view of the seven, which is we think of the seven as well. Some, some schools of thought call it the enthusiast. And there's the sense of as I referred to before taste testing and, you know, trying lots of different things, taking a sampling approach to life. And then there's this beautiful thing that happens with sevens, when something really captures their full selves. The seven lines of five is the capacity for sevens to focus on something which isn't like trying to put a straight check out on myself and focus that's really the seven line to one, but it's the sense of opening to a deeper curiosity that is compelling me towards something that feels beautiful and satiating, and like to become saturated with this thing and feels to me like that's kind of what this interest is for. You like, you read a lot of books, you've you're pretty deep into these communities, and you become relatively fluent with the Enneagram relatively quickly, seems to me,
Ikram 10:12
yeah, I would say so satiated is a really good word, I think, because I don't know the line to five is interesting. And I don't know if I exactly get it, but I think I have an idea. I almost feel it more in my anxiety, you know what I mean? So it's like, when, when I'm skimming and when I'm like, whatever, eating junk food and not being satiated, like, obviously the anxiety is up, and it just feels like I'm doing shit to distract myself and just like, masturbate mentally, you know, like, it's not something that's it's not something that's like, necessarily gonna change my freaking life or whatever, but it's like, it's like a very interesting distraction, or, like a thought exercise or whatever. But the line to, I think, five or the satiating type of knowledge. I think that's shit that I think is gonna actually, can I swear here, sorry,
Josh Lavine 11:07
yes, it's fine. She says, 10 minutes into the interview, after having dropped him on the sword, yes, oh my gosh. I don't know why I feel like
Ikram 11:19
I'm gonna draw like I'm in a job interview. I'm like, Okay, be good. Don't be a fucking trash back, like, try to keep it together. But yeah, what was I saying? Um, satiating. Yeah, yes. So yeah, though, I guess the knowledge that I feel like you can kind of build on and actually use to navigate your life and see the world as it is, without the positive spin to it, or it's not. I don't know if seven positivity is exactly positive, but it's like, whimsical. It's, I don't know it's like, this might be true. It might not be, who the fuck cares, like something like that. Yeah, yeah. Well, I definitely think that the Enneagram is, Enneagram is kind of depressing. You know, if you really think about it, it's like, not, it's like, super positive. It's, it's actually pretty horrifying. I remember, I thought I was a six. I thought, I kind of thought I was a seven, but I kind of didn't like, when I joined enneagrammer and, like, I saw all the Pinterest boards, I was like, oh, like, from the vibes of these people, I'm somewhere in the six seven area, possibly I'm a nine, but when I got type to seven, like, oh God. Like, it was so horrifying, because I was thinking that I'm probably a six. Obviously, I'm a freaking anxious person. I think anyone can tell me that, like, I'm I'm like, a little bit neurotic, but I'm like, Oh, but I found a way to be like, like, positive and like, get myself out of it and reframe and it's like, oh my gosh. Like, that's my whole fucking like, that's my whole gig as a seven. Like, if you think about the Enneagram, or at least the way I think about it, it's just like, it's like life is terrifying, and our type is just a coping mechanism for how we deal with the terror of like, death, of things might not meaning anything or whatever. And it's like, damn, like, what I thought was transcendent, like I believed. It's like a deep held belief. It's not just like, oh, like, I like being positive. It's like a deep, held belief that I should be enjoying my time here on earth or whatever, and I should, like, direct my consciousness in like, towards getting that like, to figure out that that's kind of like, yeah, my neuroses that that was like nerve wracking. So I wouldn't say the Enneagram is exactly like a fun hobby. It's like a kind of a horrifying one, you know, if you think about
Josh Lavine 13:43
it too much, yeah, well, I am really fascinated by this point you're bringing up that the Enneagram is depressing, but it also captures your fascination. And, yeah,
Ikram 13:59
because we're, well, go ahead. Well,
Josh Lavine 14:02
I just want to frame just in a basic pedagogy way, like you're we're talking about seven as a positive outlook type, and also as a head type, meaning as an anxious type, and and how, how seven deals with the fundamental anxiety. And I'm curious to get into what your experience of anxiety is, and your description of yourself as an anxious person, and all that. That's an all that that's interesting to me as well, but particularly this word depressing that use, like the Enneagram, is a depressing system, you know? I mean, do you not that's an interesting thing. Well, I think just curious. Okay, let me how do I actually think about it? Let's see how I think about it is that it is, it's really holding, in a beautiful way, the polarity of our shadow and our gift, excuse me, and yes, it's depressing in the sense that I mean, it kind of. But you know, if you're not, if you're not embarrassed or or, you know, horrified, in a sense, when you discover your type, you're kind of not doing it right, in my opinion. But
Ikram 15:12
also typed,
Josh Lavine 15:14
yeah, but also, there is the, you know, one of the, the the over emphasis on shadow can be, well, that can be overdone either, either poll can be overdone, in my opinion. But it's just interesting to me in this conversation that you're focusing on the depressing aspect of the Enneagram as a seven and so, yeah, how do you place that? Or what's your,
Ikram 15:47
um, okay, the way I see it, at least for my type structure, and I'm kind of seeing that with other people's, you know, it's like, you have this one, we have this one goal, right? Which is like, like, I really resonated. Oh, my god. That was such a terrible day, the day that I listened to the object relations podcast, and they got to the point of seven, and I was like, Yeah, this really is my story. This story of like, I was deprived in life, and like, now it's up to me to make sure that I fucking finally, like, you know, have my day. You know, no one rain on my parade. Whatever. I'm gonna nourish myself like, that's like a, that's not just like a, I don't know it's not like this passing thought, like, that's like a core root of like my story and like my narrative going all the time. I'm not gonna speak for all sevens. I'm just gonna try to speak for myself, because I'm sure some people would disagree. But so I find that, I find that really, really sad, because you have that right, but seven is a frustration type, like, I'm trying to be happy, right? And seven is not exactly positive. I think a better way to think about it, or at least how I think about it is, it's like, I'm, I more have an issue with metabolizing negativity, right? And what that, what that causes, is like you basically just procrastinate darkness and all this shit. And so it's like you're trying to, you're trying to reframe constantly what's going on in your life, or, like, in the world, or whatever. And that takes up a lot of energy, and it does cause anxiety, and it does cause you to whatever. That's when the skimming, like, comes into play and stuff, because it's just, like, if you're if you have all this, like, pain, like, built up, like, obviously, yeah. Like, let me just try to stay above water, so it makes you, like, a kind of a nervous person, like, whatever manic seeming or whatever, I don't know, and like, if you're really into your personality, like, if you're in your personality structure, like you will become a miserable person. So I kind of see that with all the types, like, you're actively working against your goal because you're so caught up in your personality structure, and it makes it like sad for people. Yeah,
Josh Lavine 18:06
yes, you in our in our previous conversation, you use the phrase sevens are really well, actually, I'm not sure that you made this as a general statement about all sevens, but you said something like, I'm really a depressed person trying to stay up, yeah, yeah, or something like that. And it struck me that, like, first of all, you use the word depression as a descriptor, was almost itself lightly held, but also I could feel a depth to it, you know, like there was something about the way that you said the word that was like, Whoa, is that? Is that itself, like a skimming over of something anyway, my point is, is that, yeah, or actually, is that true? Do you want to go there? No, it's
Ikram 18:57
true. No, I was just taking in. I was just like, you're right, yeah, yeah, I get that, yeah, yeah. I think it's just like, like you said the shadow, right? You spend so much time trying to avoid or just being hypersensitive towards negativity, and I don't know negativity is not the right word, just like, even being bored or being bland or whatever, not interesting, all that shit you just have, like you said, a bunch of frustration, yeah, like you're gonna like, that causes you to be kind of negative, because you just see all the shit that can be improved in your life or improved in your experience. Nothing's ever enough, yeah? And you look at other people, and you're also just like, okay, like, I don't want to be like you, like you see whatever more stable or more happy or whatever, but, um, you also just, it's almost like you gave up in life. I don't know if that's a frustration type thing, but I'm like, Oh, you fucking gave up. You gave up on actually trying to, like, be happy. Me, I don't want to be like you or be Yeah, I don't know. So it's just like, that's a lot of negativity. And I do feel negative, like I felt negative most my life, but and that's why I never would have typed myself a seven when I was reading the Old Enneagram books. But I know that from the outside, like a lot of people would say, like, I'm positive or happy or whatever, and I know that I also like to try to keep myself up, like I have that, like, whatever quality to myself, like, let's keep the show rolling, baby, you know. But, yeah, I wouldn't, I don't think internally I feel, you know, super positive. Yeah, I'm sure there's people who are definitely more miserable than me, though, sure.
Josh Lavine 20:41
You know, part of what I I love about this part of the conversation is that this just really digging into seven as a frustration type. And this word frustration, it's so obvious to me in the one and the four and so, you know, ones are like, you can feel their frustration, and they're trying to fix stuff. And for fours, you could definitely feel their frustration, you know, and they're doing their first that's they're identified so much of their frustration. But the seven has always done been a little bit of like, an like, how does that exactly square? And I kind of get it cerebrally, but there's the sense that sevens aren't as much identified with their frustration, or they're trying, like frustration itself is a form of negativity that sevens are trying to get away from. And so there's a it's like, that's, it's like both the engine that's driving me and also it's a thing that I'm trying to suppress beneath my consciousness. Yeah, that's one way to frame it. Does that land for you? Or
Ikram 21:48
I think at times I actually had, like, a lot of pride with my frustration, you know, whatever.
Josh Lavine 21:53
Uh huh,
Ikram 21:55
I know,
Josh Lavine 21:57
actually, let me just, let me say one other thing, what I just said might not be true from the point of view of, you know, suppressing my frustration is maybe more of a nine sensibility, but there's certainly, there's certainly A response to frustration, or like frustration exists internally. My experience of sevens is that it exists internally as a kind of Springboard or trampoline. Yes,
Ikram 22:27
you know, yes, engine that keeps the whole thing going. Yeah. It's
Josh Lavine 22:32
like, whoop, frustration, bounce, and then off I go into, you know, looking up out to the horizon. You know, the the next thing that's gonna whatever. Yes,
Ikram 22:42
that's a great, that's a great way to describe it. I think frustration is kind of the engine of seven. It's why it's an assertive type, because you're, you're pushing yourself out into the world. And I don't know, I'll give like, a small cultural reference, you know, for the viewers, like, if anybody has ever listened to like Kid Cudi is like man on the moon, whatever album, it's very depressing, and it starts really depressing, but towards like this Kid Cudi a seven. Kid Cudi is a seven. He's a seven, week six, social, sexual, yeah. Okay, got it. So. Kid Cudi is a seven, wing six, and his album, man on the moon. You can go through every song and it start, it's like, it's quite sad. It's he talks about, like, I don't know, it's a lot of frustration, it's a lot of sadness. Um, but in every freaking, like, the end of each song, there's some kind of, or even in the music, uh, the instrumentals and stuff. There's something like uplifting orient or whatever, interesting tracks, yeah. And towards the very end of the album, like, it ends on a high note, like, I'm going to be better. I'm going to be better. Like, um, like, things are going to get better. And that's the future orientation of seven. That's why I feel like it's not exactly, it's like the positive, like, you're searching for positivity, but the positivity is always in the future, so all you get is frustration, you know? Um, so, yeah, that's, that's kind of Yeah. The sad part, I think I love the seven. It's just like, I don't know, yeah, being unsatisfied with what's going on, right? Yeah.
Josh Lavine 24:24
So what gets you going like, and I bring, I guess I dropped that phrase here because we talked last time there was this, you were talking about how, basically, like, what motivates you to do anything is the promise of something, the promise of fill in the blank, you know, like, yeah, something better that, yeah, yeah. The and the what? What kid cudi's songs are structurally doing. Is precisely that thing. It's like, there's, you know, I'm describing my shitty circumstance, and I'm looking to the future, envisioning the possibility of something more amazing and and the promise of that is what, yeah, go ahead, you and it's like,
Ikram 25:19
and it's like, he's describing his shitty circumstance, like he's so frustrated with his shitty circumstance that he can't even really tell it the way it is. Like, that's something that sixes are really good at, and I really admire them for. But it's like seven there has to be like, some kind of, like, tilt or whatever. If you, if you listen to his music, it's like, super imaginative or whatever. And he, he talks about himself like, almost a little bit detached, like he's a like he's a different character, or whatever. He describes himself in third person, in some songs and stuff. So it's like, so frustrated that you can't even really look at the thing, you know, yeah, and then the promise of good is, is, is in the future.
Josh Lavine 26:00
Yeah. Yeah, I have to say one thing I part of, I'm just sort of amazed by our conversation so, far from the point of view, is that it's kind of negative, you know, it's kind of like, or, and, and I'm speaking to you a social, sexual seven and so I like that from the point of view, it's contradicting a stereotype. But also, how are you feeling right now? I wonder being kind of swimming in this negativity that we've put in front of
Ikram 26:37
us. This is how I always am. I think anybody who talks to me long enough knows that, like, I just talk about, fuck, life is so trash, like, fuck, like, so, yeah, I don't know, but I try to make jokes. It's also just like, you know, life is trash a little bit, but like, I don't know, there you also just get to live it, and you you're gonna die one day. Nothing really fucking matters anyway, so it's fine, uh huh, yeah. I feel like, yeah, yeah,
Josh Lavine 27:11
yeah. What I also just, I'll notice one other thing about you, which is that there is a way that you hold this conversation with a somatic buoyancy. It's like, there's like, yeah, we're being negative, but it's, I don't get the sense that it's gonna really bring you down. You know what I'm saying? Like, it's maybe if I were talking to a four or a six or a nine or something like, there'd be a more of a sense of, like, really resting, or like moving into the negativity and just like getting our hands dirty with all the muck. But there's a, there's just a different quality with you, of it being a little more Teflon. Do you know what I mean by that, like, yeah, yeah. Like, non stick, you know, yeah. And that's just, I'm really just tuning into an energy. It's not anything that necessarily, that you're saying, but it's like, Are you and do you experience that energy on the inside? Does it feel like an accurate read? Yes,
Ikram 28:17
yes. So I um, I think for me, the it's kind of hard to say that I focus on positivity. I know that I kind of, there's some part of me that does because I'm looking to, like, I kind of want to just see the thing. Maybe that's my six wing. Like, I want to see the thing for what it is. And I actively, like, have been burned from like, being like, a little bit more of a Pollyanna when I was like, okay, or whatever. But even then, actually, even then, I was reading Pollyanna, like, uh, what does that mean? I don't know. Is that a Canadian term? I'm not sure. Um, just like, uh, goody two shoes or it's not exactly, it's like, gullible about the world, or whatever. Um, okay, okay, but yeah. But even then, actually, when I was a kid, my my journals were depressing as hell, but I was also always interested, and I do think I experienced great joy as well. You know, think I experienced the spectrum of emotions. I think the sevenness of me or whatever is that I do, I am like, fixated on keeping things interesting, like, I think, for example, for this interview, um, I don't mind if it's sad. I hope you don't mind too much, but sad I would, I would mind if it was, like, incredibly boring, you know, that would be terrible. And I would be like, wanting to die, like, it was like, boring interview, you know? But, oh,
Josh Lavine 29:40
that's a really important distinction, right there. That's a beautiful distinction, actually, yeah, I think, I mean, so this the conversation has a motion to it. It's sparkly, it's interesting. Yes, the content is negative, but there is, yeah, motion to it sparks
Ikram 29:56
flying in your brain, you know? Yeah,
Josh Lavine 29:59
yeah, yeah. It's. Stimulating. It's a stimulating conversation, yes, but if it were slower and more lugubrious and boring, then what
Ikram 30:10
I don't know, I would have to exit. I would just fucking turn this off.
Um, I don't know. I like, okay, so I'll tell you a little bit of a story of me, I guess, being a seven or a frustration type. But we would have to, every once in a while, whatever, when my mom was, like, on a religious kick, she would take us to the mosque, like on Fridays, and we would, like, listen to religious lectures and all that stuff. And, like, there was nothing wrong with them, you know, um, they were super, you know, I don't know, just regular stuff that you probably would experience in, like, Sunday school or whatever. Just like, oh, be a good person. And then, like, stories, stories about the profit and whatever. Um, sure it's just incredibly boring. It's incredibly, incredibly boring. And and I remember literally sobbing, you know, like, like, crying in the bathroom, um, and I, you know, I forced her, like, not like, I really begged her and forced her not to, like, make me go to that ever again. Um, meanwhile, like, I experienced stuff on the opposite side of the spectrum, like, just hearing like, like, I remember I had this one, and he was like, kind of crazy. And she would, like, I had to stay with her for like, a summer or something. She was just like, listen to fucking all this shit about, like, how you're gonna burn in hell. And it's like, super vivid. And it's like, I was, I remember being scared. I remember all that, but I kind of, like, low key was a choice, because it's like, I was like, it's scaring me, it's giving me nightmares. I'm having anxiety, but like, that's like, I didn't have like, that huge, like, emotional reaction of, like, I need to get the fuck out of here. Like, please never send me here again. More, it was more like, like, this is people are insane. Like, that was, that was kind of the vibe. Um, so I don't know if that's like, an interesting or like, whatever, a distinction that makes sense to you, but yeah,
Josh Lavine 32:09
well, it's a really, it's a beautiful and important one, I think. And I'll put some other framing on it. I think, you know, a lot of times the seven is taught in terms of avoiding negativity, and that's partly what we've been talking about. But it's kind of not exactly that. It's something different. It's like that feeling of being it's being trapped, like having to sit and listen to boring stories, and the the reaction that you had to that like, begging your mom please never take me there again. I never want to do that again. That's, I mean, I can feel the meanwhile.
Ikram 32:49
I'm like, totally down to hear, like, the story about like, freaking iron being melted and then being poured into your ears, because you listen to me say, By this, my fucking crazy ass. Like, I'm totally down with that. Like, this is kind of metal, but like, I don't, I don't want to hear the same freaking lecture every week. Like, I'm gonna, I'm on the break.
Josh Lavine 33:07
Yeah. Well, there's two things about that. One is that the the story of hellfire and brimstone is, is interesting, because exciting, stimulating. And it's, it's something to it's engaging, something to play around with, and it's not really touching you, like it's not, it doesn't seem to me that those stories felt I don't know. I mean, well, you tell me, were they? My sense of you telling of that story is that it didn't feel like the threat of hellfire and brimstone was personal to you, like it wasn't immediate in the moment, like, Oh, I'm going to be punished or something like that.
Ikram 33:55
Um, I actually would disagree, like I did have, like, a lot of religious anxiety, like I did. Oh, I
Josh Lavine 34:00
see. Okay, you did, yeah, so that's what I mean. Like,
Ikram 34:03
it was actively hurting me, and I was still like, kind of cool with it. Interesting.
Josh Lavine 34:07
That's interesting. The, let me paint just by contrast, the distinction about so between that versus sitting in in the same boring stories week after week, like the actual experience in a somatic way of like you being in a room, like with nothing to do, like there's nothing to play with, there's no there's nothing interesting going on, and you are fundamentally trapped there for the duration of time that your mom is making you be there. Yeah, you know that that produces in you a more powerful allergic reaction. You know, it's like a different level of existential terror, and it brings it brings me to my personal names for the types are the seeker of something like I call the three the value seeker. And my, my word for the seven is the. Freedom seeker. And the the what I'm trying to do there is use a name for like, the essential quality of that type and freedom I arrived at only after I tried words like the joy seeker, the delight seeker, things like that. And it just seems to me that freedom is a more accurate term, or it's pointing. It's pointing to this, this thing that we're talking about here, right? Yeah, it's not that, it's not, it's not that your allergy isn't activated by negative stories. It's activated by experiences that feel like they're not going to go anywhere, that they're going to they're stale, they're going to be, you're going to be trapped here forever. It's not gonna have an end, you know, yeah,
Ikram 35:43
yeah,
Josh Lavine 35:44
yeah. Does that feel right to you?
Ikram 35:46
It does feel right. It does feel right. And now that I'm thinking about this more, this is actually story me and my best friend have in common, the one, who's a five she also has, like, a story of, like, you know, going to church and, you know, like, being so bored to she cried, she she was like, I really don't want to go back. Um. So I kind of, now that I'm thinking about it, I kind of wonder if it's just like, six sixes are able, because, like all head types, I think we truly do live in our minds, you know, and the way I envision my mind is like, whatever sparks going off or like, I don't know, mental masturbation is a good whatever. Like, you know, phrasing for it. And I think fives is just a lot more deep, like, just their deep wells, I think sixes are the ones who are, like, actually know what's going on. Like, I'm reading The Autobiography of Malcolm X, who I believe is a six. Do you know? Yeah, yeah. I think so, I believe he's, yeah, so he's a six. And the one thing I'm so, like, it's a great book, of course, but like, one thing I'm so, you know, impressed by with six is just like, how in tune they are with what's going on with them. And it's just like, I do kind of feel like a little bit cut off from, from what's like, not like a five, because fives are withdrawn type, and they're so individuated. But I think with seven, it's just like, like, I'm on my own, different roller coaster. You know what I mean? Like, I'm not exactly, I don't really know what's going on. So for example, with that, that example, with just going to, you know, the mosque or the church or whatever it's like, like, I depend on my mind to escape, and if you're not stimulating me, like, I don't know what to do, whereas the six is able to engage with whatever's going on and have some kind of opinion and be a little bit more tuned in that, that would be my Guess. Yeah,
Josh Lavine 37:39
that's a really cool distinction. Yeah, that actually, oh, that's fascinating. Yeah, that's, I'm gonna log that one away to think about later, because I do notice. I'm always amazed how sixes are willing and able to engage with whatever the conversation is, and they have things to say about it, you know, and they're willing to just jump in and whatever's in that's, that's fascinating, yeah? And you're right, there's a sense of sevens. It's like, well, if this conversation isn't doing it for me, then I'm out of here. Or, yeah, and
Ikram 38:13
then that kind of makes sense with sixes, right? Because their entire thing is, I mean, they have this quality of, like, really questioning, like, authority and what's like, what is being taught, or whatever, like, this isn't this is wrong because you're sweating people this way. It's because they themselves are kind of like they have they're responsible to engage with whatever is going on, whatever in their environment. And they're attaching mentally, you know,
Josh Lavine 38:40
just that's, this is an amazing yeah, attachment versus frustration in the mental center, like, that's, that's what that just was. That's a really cool distinction. Yeah, yeah. Let me just pause and take a breath here. I'll say one other thing, actually, my experience of myself in this conversation with you is that kind of like in the conversation I had with Jess the five there's a way that I can feel my inner location moving up into my head, like this is a, this is a, This is a conversation in which I am engaging somewhat symbolically, and so I'm just taking a moment to kind of breathe back into My body. Here.
Can we come back to the the metabolizing negativity, piece of the seven. And just talk about like, do you have an example of something that you needed to metabolize? I. Yeah, and either didn't or eventually did, and that just the process of that for you, what that was like, why it was hard, all that stuff,
Ikram 40:08
yeah, I think, okay, I'll share. I think something that happened, like, around 19 or 20, like, I had like, a huge, like, depressive episode, and I've, like, kind of been a downer always, but like, I've never actually experienced like, real depression. I think that was my first experience with it, when I was 19, and looking back thinking about the causes of that, why that happened, it's very quite bizarre, because at that point, like, my life was going pretty good, like, um, for once, like there was nothing like super bad happening, not to say that my life was, like full of strife and depression. Like, I don't want to go too far with that, but like I I did experience, like, a lot of challenges when I was younger, just with seeing negativity that was surrounding other people. And just like, if you, if you think seven is kind of like wanting to escape hardship, I think I was not in a situation that would really help that out, like I was. I was surrounded by a bunch of hardship. So how do I talk about this? Yeah, so basically, I think when I was like, 11 or 12, we moved into this neighborhood, while my mom was, like, saving up for her first business. That was like, kind of like, kind of poor whatever. And we went to the school where it was like, half poor kids, half rich kids, because of just the area. And I guess that was my first, like, Introduction to just like, fucking how unfair life is. Because even though I was living there, I had a lot of privileges. Because obviously my mom was just there to, like, save money. So we were, like, kind of, we were living below our needs and stuff. So we were like, safe and all that stuff. And I knew that one point we would leave and just for them, me seeing, seeing everyone else and just like, I don't know, it just seems like a lot of people are dealt like a really fucking hard hand in life. Just, I don't know, it's not fair. And I think the way I dealt with that when I was younger is I just totally, kind of tried to ignore it or reframe it so much so that I wasn't prepared for the future, the future consequences of, basically the stuff that was happening with my friends lives. And so how do I get deeper with this? Um, I don't know. We just grew up. I ended up moving, we whatever, moved to the suburbs. She started her business, whatever. And like a bunch of the kids I grew up with, like, started going to jail. I think one kid I went to junior high with got freaking knifed. This other kid was like a standby. He was, he was standing by whenever he was put to jail. And there's like, some racial profiling there, whatever, because he wasn't the fucking guy who stabbed him. He was just like a passer by, and he was the only one who got to jail. The other kids, again, were from the richer side of the neighborhood, and I think their parents just bought them fucking plane to Costa Rica, and they were like, I don't know, they escaped the law because they had money, um, and, and just like, even stuff with my household, like, there's, like, a lot of mental health issues with people. And I wasn't really like, I straight up, was like, not even really, like, believing in that thing where that's kind of where the conspiracy theory of seven comes in and stuff. I'm like, I don't really who's to say, like, Bipolar is a thing, or, like, schizophrenia, I don't know if that's a real thing, whatever. Anyway, so by the time I got older, obviously, I had spent so much time building up this image of what everyone's life is going to turn out to be. And you know, it didn't pan out like obviously. And so what you
Josh Lavine 44:07
had a vision of, you had a seven ish vision of positive outcomes for everyone else.
Ikram 44:11
Yes, yes, yeah, okay, yeah. I did, yeah. I just thought things were gonna be okay. And it was just, it goes back to that procrastinating, like, sadness, you know, so much effort and so much time, like building this, it's like, because it's not just like, said it like, you know, whatever. It's just like. And it's not like purely just delusional where, like, everything's gonna be fine. But it's, it's also just like, kind of thinking about all the ways that it could be fine, like, Oh, if they make this thing and they could do this, and then they have this opportunity, and they're kind of good at this, and so they could go this way, and I don't know, and having none of that pan out like you spend so much fucking man hours doing that, so much time, like having the blinders on. Yeah, and then just like, just everything, just getting decimated, just made me really depressed about the state of the world just in general. I don't know if the world's any harder than it was in its entire history, you know. But just like, I think life just in general is quite negative, and it's not fair, you know? So, yeah, I think that was my first time, like, fully, like, sinking into that feeling, and maybe the seven part actually catastrophize things a little bit more. I've thought about that a few times. So just doesn't feel like I can handle, like, my subjective experience. It just feels like I personally can handle things sometimes the way they are, and I just would rather put, like, I don't know, some kind of spin to it. So yeah, after that, I don't think that I have that habit as much anymore, but yeah, that's so, yeah, I hope that was a good enough story. It was quite like long and like meandering, but,
Josh Lavine 46:08
well, it was really evocative from a certain point of view. I mean, you, I love this piece of you had you, you were holding internally a vision of how everyone else's life was going to turn out well and and that vision got disappointed, and the reality was that it didn't turn out well for everyone. And you know, some people went to jail, some people got knived, some people just didn't fulfill their dreams, whatever. And, yeah, I'm hearing a kind of just fundamental grief about that and the So, I guess my question is, what I hear you acknowledging that the your your fantasy and the reality didn't match up, but what helped you face the truth of it, or process the feeling that came up around it, and where are you at,
Ikram 47:11
yeah? So I think the feeling is just like the core mood of seven, right? It's just like this feeling of being trapped, being trapped in life, whatever. Because if you kind of get to the core thing about that story, it's just, it's just, I think it was just, I just had a tidal wave of thinking of, like, realizing that, you know, I thought that we had infinite possibilities, but actually, like, we are, there are ways that we're limited, you know. And, yeah, that things are, whatever things are not as open or free as I would like them to be, or that's just going to be the situation for a lot of people. And, yeah, and the way I got through it, I think, I think I just kind of stopped doing that as much, you know, I started seeing as like, as a negative thing that it was, you know, because I did a lot of that stuff to kind of survive, or in my point of view, or whatever, to survive sad stuff that I was seeing and I was personally experiencing, But I realized that that was like a false narrative. Like, I think I could have six or sixes survive childhood, you know what I mean? And they're not doing like the rose colored glasses thing. Like, all the negative types survive childhood or whatever, or survive hardship. Have resilience, you know, and ascent with something that's essential to all human beings, like we do have resilience. We don't need to have our personality type going all the time in order to survive life, or, I don't know, make it. We can actually just relax and realize, yes, it is what it is, but you also don't need to exactly. You don't need to do so much for framing for you to deal with. What is, yeah,
Josh Lavine 49:08
yeah. Well, so, I mean, I guess I want to get a little rubber meets the road like you were depressed around the age of 1920 right? And did you like, Did you see a therapist? Or did you, did you talk to people? Or did you have some kind of way of confronting it in, I guess, maybe like a formal way, or was it just your own inner processing of meeting reality based on without reframing it.
Ikram 49:43
I was, I definitely, I probably should have gone to therapy, um, and I was scared to talk to people about it, because I'm also, I also don't like bringing like. It's easy for me to talk about things, so maybe this is a positive, positive outlook kind of thing. It's easy for me to talk about negative things when they're like, not currently happening. Thing, like, when I'm at, like, after the thing is done, and when I'm not, like, in the experience, it's easier. It's because, I guess it's like, more of a mental thing, you know, it's like, oh, that was that. You know, this is how I got out of it. So I definitely didn't tell anybody, I don't think, not until a lot later. But how did I get out of it? I think, I think I really leaned on my secondary nine I leaned into spirituality. Like I came back to that I had, I was, like, weirdly religious as a child. Like, I did definitely believe in God and religious in that. Like, I don't know if I was really good at doctrine or anything, I don't think I read anything, but I just had my own vibe of like, oh God's watching me, and I should be a good person. So I kind of leaned back into reconnecting with spirituality, reconnecting with the idea that that there's a lot of pain in life, but there's still beauty in it, despite the pain. And it's actually, it's actually by trying to make everything better, you're actually just like flattening things out. I did a lot of journaling, and, yeah, it was a slow thing. I don't know. I think it was just like a combination of a bunch of shit, forcing myself to take walks, forcing myself to, like I did do, like, a lot of seven, seven things in in that, like, I got, like, obsessed with wellness, like listening to all the podcasts, or whatever, um, after I went through, like, the freaking Darth Vader depression, like, you know, where there's like, oh, and then also, Just realizing that my mind was creating it all like one thing that I was afraid of, actually, this might be something to do with being a seven, is that when I got very depressed, I realized I'm like, Dude, I'm having the same like four thoughts all day running on a loop, and they're all sad, you Know? And that was the first time I realized that, like, I can't actually trust my own thoughts, you know, which might be a scary thing for everyone, but maybe especially for a head type. And I just actually had to just do things that I thought would make me feel better, and kind of ignore what was going on, abandon and stop trying to think my way out of it, because my thinking was failing me, you know, just in the same loop. Yeah, right.
Josh Lavine 52:31
This is, I don't know if this is too much of a stretch to connect this, but it almost feels like that's pulling in the seven as an assertive type there, like, Well, I'm just gonna go do something now. You know to to what to get out of this or to but like this, some energy gets summoned from within to do and like, if I were, if I were watching you during that time. Like, what would I have noticed you
Ikram 53:05
doing? I went from like, catatonic depression into, like a party girl phase. So he would see that little you'd see that shift a little bit. Yeah, sure. And then just, and then whatever, I had a granola stage, whatever, just trying on different identities and ways of being, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, yeah. So you'd see, you see, I think in the beginning, was just a lot of just me forcing myself to go on walks. I did a lot of volunteering. That's how I ended up getting into the field like I'm I'm in now whatever, I volunteered at 1000 different places, because volunteering does make you feel better. And, yeah, just, just trying to force myself, I actually there was a lot of doing happening, because I realized that if I, if I fill up my space with a bunch of shit, and it doesn't even have to be, I don't even need to be enjoying it, like, I take, I took that off the table, because it's like, really, I couldn't feel fucking nothing. I was like, numb. I don't have to enjoy it, but I have to, like, actually, just like, do it. So there was a, there was a good stretch of time where, like, every fucking whatever stretch of time was like, counted for, like, I had something to do, you know,
Josh Lavine 54:30
you know, well, I have one question, what's it like sharing the story of your depression, and the whole thing of it is, are there any emotions that come up for you right now, actually, or in the telling of it,
Ikram 54:45
I feel the awkwardness of my heart last because I'm like, Dude, this is like, the worst of my life. Just like having a hard time, like I don't know, like actually feeling the emotion, like I do know when I Yes. Just like, when I got out of it, like, it was a very transcendent or when I like, the when I kind of realized, like, I'm actually starting to get better. Like, that's a very transcendent and emotional time for me, and I was very healing and whatever, um, opened up my idea of life. Um, but I also just, I feel like, oh my gosh, like, I can't talk about it without making it, like, monotone. Just like, very like, this is what happened. I don't know, so I guess how it feels, like, maybe a certain level of discomfort,
Josh Lavine 55:32
right? I don't mean to be in whatever way about this, but like, how do you how do you actually, how do you know that you're uncomfortable? What does it mean to be uncomfortable? What does it mean to be
Ikram 55:45
uncomfortable? What are you experiencing? So the hard types kind of deal with shame, right? And I kind of only ever feel the three influence when it comes to the shame part, which is just like, Oh my gosh. Like, how did I get out of this, like, or is this like a, is this like a?
Am I? Am I being too, I don't know, fucking emo in this interview, like, or, I don't know, just a certain level of just like, like, I don't know. I don't know how to describe it. So it's a struggle.
Josh Lavine 56:25
Sure, it sounds like, I mean, this is sort of self reflective in a maybe symbolic way, but my experience of you when you were telling that story was like, I could feel a so on the one level, there were the words you were sharing in the in the narrative thread. But my experience of your energy was, it was on the one hand, searching for the memories and trying to put them together. But there was a kind of like, I'm going to use the word jitteriness or something like that. Or like a
Ikram 57:00
Yeah,
Josh Lavine 57:03
yeah. Does that resonate with you the way that you experienced
Ikram 57:09
it? Yeah? Yeah.
Josh Lavine 57:12
It's just at the body level, man.
Ikram 57:13
You know, this is a good this is a good conversation, because earlier on, we were talking about that feeling of just like whatever, being so incredibly unstimulated That, you know, being brought to tears and like you just like, I have to run away from this that was, like, my entire life at that, that whatever point in my life, you know, the whole thing was just like me trying to, like, run out of my beingness and Just fucking feeling trapped in like a meat suit, and so it's just like, it's kind of like ghosts of like, Christmas past, I don't know, not the right thing, but like, it's just like a ghostly hour of my life. I'm
like, Oh, those times like, yeah, right. So I guess it does make me feel jittery,
Josh Lavine 57:59
right, right, right. And I just, I wonder underneath that jitteriness is the is potentially that authentic feeling of the story that you were searching for in the in the telling of the story, or were kind of self conscious that you weren't feeling, maybe you know what I'm saying. Yeah,
Ikram 58:19
yeah, I know what you're saying. Yeah, I guess underneath the jitteriness, it's just like, oh gosh. It's just so devastating. I just feel, I feel bad, you know, I feel, I felt, I feel bad looking back and seeing the stark contrast between what I was before that period of time, um, all that led up to that whatever, and and the reasons why I felt I needed to have, like, this intense like, like, I wouldn't say it maybe not as far as like, fantasy world, but like bordering on that, you know what I mean, like, Why was my imagination like, so hyper Drive in order for me to deal with shit and, like, trying to think of like, reasons why or whatever, and then just seeing, like, how freaking fast I fell into that place and how scared I was being stuck whatever in that place. Yeah, it's just so it was, like, very, very scary. Yeah,
Josh Lavine 59:22
yeah, I feel it. And what strikes me about that whole thing, there are so many dimensions of your life and your story, but this particular thread of growing up the way you did, being at that school, experiencing the or just seeing with clarity the unfairness of things and and then having your fantasy of things working out just not match the reality of as time went on, you realize that you know things weren't working out for people, that whole thing feels like a form of it brought you in contact with a kind of suffering that. Has, in a sense, defined your life trajectory, you know? I mean, there's a depth to it. And I mean this in a I've actually mean this in a complimentary way, like a beautiful way. This is, this is the kind of like doing what you do now and and moving into volunteer work and now community work and local politics like that. I mean, this is me, maybe as a social type, kind of braiding the threads together. But it feels like there's this really powerful undercurrent that is under going under your life here. Does that feel right to you?
Ikram 1:00:38
It does. It does feel right because I think when you when you try to be a little bit more practical about things, like the way improve people's lives is not like, it's not like going after the individual, you kind of have to change things structurally and slowly. And so that is why I got really addicted to volunteering, because I could see that I was changing things in people's lives without having to, like, I don't know, like, just in a small, humble way, you know, and that's something that I'm reminding myself to get back like, do things in a humble way, slow and steady, Whatever. So I don't, I don't want to be apathetic. You know, I think there's something between like being a complete idealist, because I see that swing in a lot of people. I don't think it's just Evans, like people being complete idealist, whatever, and then swinging way hard into nihilism and just like, Yeah, fuck everything. But there's a sweet middle, right, yeah, and so I definitely think that that awakened that in me, and I could see that it would heal me, and that it was like, honest, it's like, an honest try at bringing positivity or whatever, instead of yeah, just like, you know, no,
Josh Lavine 1:02:01
I love that phrase. An honest try at bringing positivity. Yeah. Also just want that I loved, addicted to volunteering. That phrase stood out to me. Oh
Ikram 1:02:16
yeah, because I was supposed to go to one thing, and then I just, like, kept because I because, like, I said, like, I definitely, definitely still have my personality type, you know what? I mean, it's like, excess, whatever. But like, I was supposed to just, like, do one thing. And I think I was at one community meeting. And again, it was the same thing everyone it was. It was a group of youths, whatever, people around my age at the time, I was 2019, maybe a little bit younger, and then we all went in a circle and just like, basically fucking, like, the story of your life, like, but the highlight reel is, like, every bad thing that's ever happened to you just fucking, I was like, so like, Oh my God. Like, I want to fucking get out of here. Fuck. But I ended up connecting with somebody at the same volunteering, you know, thing, and then we're like, Oh, what about we do, like a joint kind of like event where we this is kind of seven, I guess. Yeah, it's very seven, and a joint event where we bring both of the cultures of people who are in this group, and we celebrate by doing this cultural exchange. We'll, like, paint something. We'll, you know, just do something cool stuff, yeah? And then snowballing, and then it just got bigger and bigger and bigger. Um, yeah.
Josh Lavine 1:03:37
And that event was, that was, was the, I remember you told me that story before, it was basically like you were experiencing all this frustration and suffering, and you're like, well, let's just do, let's do something that's positive and celebratory, that brings these cultures together. Is my that was my understanding, yeah? So just giving context, yeah? And that snowballed into Yeah.
Ikram 1:04:01
It became like an organization. And then, you know, it got, it got bigger and bigger, and then I left for frustration reasons, because I'm like, it's not enough, like, it's not do, it's not big enough, whatever. So, you know, I handed it off to my, the co founder. But yeah, it was that trajectory definitely started because of all that stuff.
Josh Lavine 1:04:21
Yeah, cool. Well, how are you feeling right this moment?
Ikram 1:04:28
Um, again, I don't know. I think I'm um. I feel weirdly vulnerable still. But yeah, I feel, I think, okay,
Josh Lavine 1:04:44
yeah, I I wonder about the last half hour of our conversation, if, if this, I'm, I'm conscious of potentially this last half hour having been in. Territory that is otherwise mostly kind of skimmed over by motion and reframing and positive seven stuff. And so I just what's it been like for you to be in this conversation? And also, is that true? Is my sense true?
Ikram 1:05:19
I think it's true. What I'm like thinking of right now is that it's kind of weird, because I do think about this stuff quite a lot, you know, but I don't know why talking about it is so much weirder, or actually even just like you doing the hard reframing stuff it does. I'm like, Oh yeah, yeah. It's, yeah, it's, it's a, it's definitely vulnerable, yeah, yeah.
Josh Lavine 1:05:51
Thank you for being willing to do this and for going here with me. It's really beautiful to see. You know, I, I experience a lot of depth in you. And it's, it's very cool how it's, it's not just the stereotype of seven is being kind of, I don't know, skimming the surface and stuff, but like this, I have a real sense of the the soul of the seven here, like the transformation of suffering into action, towards positivity, and just what you're doing and what you've done for your own processing, and also the contribution making to the world through work. It's very beautiful to me. So thanks for sharing all that. Oh,
Ikram 1:06:39
thank you. Thanks for asking. This is good processing for me. I'm like, gosh, I have to get to figure out a way to, like, not be so uncomfortable talking about it. Is there anything
Josh Lavine 1:06:59
else that you want to share before we close.
Ikram 1:07:02
Um, I don't think so. My final thoughts, I really this is very enjoyable experience. Like, I definitely was afraid in beginning, you know, I think I told you, it's like being on a job interview definitely represent the type. Well, yeah, but hopefully I can't, I can't say that I represented sevens Well, like I can say that I I think that the two of us talking, I discovered more things about being a seven through our conversation, so I find that quite nourishing. And yeah, I really enjoyed this. This is fun.
Josh Lavine 1:07:42
Same, yeah. Thank you very much. Okay, you
