Joseph Stalteri 0:00
In my mind, cultivating the utmost quality and artistry in everything is what everyone should be doing all the time. So whether you're putting something down or lifting it up. You're really doing the same thing you are. This is by one fix talking to but you're refining and leveling. I'm saying by saying I hate something or saying I love something, I'm still telling you who I am. They're not different.
Josh Lavine 0:36
Welcome to another episode of what it's like to be you. I am Josh Lavine, your host today, I'm sitting with Joseph salteri, the one of the founders of ennegrammer.com and the person who wrote all of the written content on ennegrammer.com including their written typing test. He's also one of the three masterminds behind Dark Arts Academy, which is ennegrammers offering, where it's like a subscription offering where they teach you how to type people, and you can watch them type celebrities in real time. It's really quite an amazing thing, and their method of typing is extremely innovative and fascinating. Joseph types as a social, sexual four with a three wing, 461, trifix. And this conversation was really, really interesting from a lot of points of view, but I want to frame up the conversation from a particular angle, that is the object relations angle of frustration. So object if you're new to the Enneagram, or if you're new to object relations, object relations is a theory that basically talks about the primary, or most fundamental relationship that you have with quote, unquote, objects in your environment or other people. Object relations is an incredibly rich theory, and is kind of what you discover all the way at the bottom of the Enneagram. It's the fundamental structure of your psyche. You might say, I'm not going to try to give a master class on object relations right now. It's just too complex of a theory to cram into a short introduction to this video, and the important thing here is the interview. But what I recommend is that you go listen to big hormone Enneagram. The podcast has done an extraordinary job of unpacking and bringing fresh insights to what object relations really is. I do want to say that type four is a frustration type in the heart center. And what I mean by that is that I conceive of frustration types, which are one, four and seven as being constantly engaged in the ego project of trying to decontaminate myself from impurities in the environment. And type one is doing that through the body. Type four is doing that the heart center, and type seven is doing that through the mental center. When we talk about Joseph's attitude of disdain towards everything, as you'll see, that is really what it means to be frustrated in the heart center, the heart center being fundamentally concerned with issues of identity and who I am and how I'm seeing myself and how others are seeing me, which I express a lot of times through what I like and don't like. Joseph is an incredibly articulate person with respect to his own inner experience and the Enneagram itself. And so this interview, I think really just speaks for itself, stands on its own. So without further ado, please welcome my friend, Joseph salteri, welcome everyone to another interview. I am really excited to be with Joseph Simone and or Joseph salteri, you pick. And so Joseph, as I'm sure you know, is one of the enneagrammer folks who does, who runs Dark Arts Academy, and you also are the person who has written all the content on engrammer.com as well. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So I just love to start with, how are you feeling
Joseph Stalteri 3:44
right this moment? Fine. I'm looking at my face and realizing this isn't my color.
Josh Lavine 3:51
Looking at myself
Joseph Stalteri 3:54
also, yeah, I did. I wrote all the content, but and some of it's really good. So let's say I wrote that. And then the one, the stuff that's not good, let's just say that someone else wrote it. Okay, yeah, that's fine. Somebody needs to be revised. But yes, I did write the content, and that's not even something I'm good at. It was painstaking, yeah,
Josh Lavine 4:12
okay, so I'd love to hear I don't think I really know this fully about you, your Enneagram origin story. How did yeah, Sharon in your life? Yeah, go ahead,
Joseph Stalteri 4:23
you know what? So I was just, ever since I was, I think in like grade 12, we took a some test to match you with your career or opportunities, that kind of thing. And I remember just being really fascinated by this and the choices that I got. I did not become a director of photography, but still, the quiz was cool. And then I realized that I think at some point also we had to do the like Myers Briggs test or something like that. And at school, yeah, or maybe it was in university. I. Remember, I remember that first career test. I think I just, from that point on, I started to get really into Myers, Briggs, like, that's what I started with. I think that's what a lot of people start with. It's kind of an accessible thing. And I got really, really into that. It was just really fascinating to me. And then I learned about the Enneagram, I don't know, again, it was like, in, you know, there's some cross pollination, or whatever, in the in the two communities. And I learned about the Enneagram, and started reading about that, and I bought books which were crap, or that's not fair. I mean, there's some really good things in some of those books, but let's just say the stuff on four at least, is not great. I can even empathize with that, because how many fours will you meet in order to write a profile about them? So, you know? But anyway, I bought some books. I think I typed as a seven, because I was the all of that frustration stuff and seven I related to, and a lot of the four stuff really just sounded like nine. I don't have any nine anything in my typing, so I had no feeling for that. And yeah, then, you know, I think I was, I originally typed as, I think I started to type as four eventually, and then I was typing as, like, sexual self, press four, and John and a Mecca were like, yelling at me in one of the groups, because they were like, you're not such a flight. And then a Mecca, I made this website, which is like the early, early kind of incarnation of what the website is now, with all of this content that I had written, and it wasn't, it was not even the same content. It was I had, like compiled, I'd read every single Enneagram book, and I compiled all the information, all the types, and put on the website, and Mecca found it and messaged me, and was like, Is this your website? But I was so, I think it took me months to answer him, because I was so nervous, because I was like, my website shit, he's gonna tell me it's shit. And I could, sort of, I knew that he I didn't know who he was, but I could tell by what he was talking about in the group that he, like, knew what he was talking about. And so I was, like, too embarrassed to tell him that it was my website. Was my website. And then, like, several months later, I finally was like, Yeah, okay, it's, it's my website, and that was it. We started chatting, and I sent him a collage, and he was like, Dude, you're social as fuck. And, yeah, we just kind of made friends, and he was already friends with David, and I don't know exactly how one day we, I think we just we made a group, because we realized that we were typing people, and I was learning typing from them, and we were all kind of whatever. Then we made a group, and we were like, wow, we should name ourselves. And then we were like, you know, we should start charging, because when we were giving typing away from free, I mean, it was a lot of work, and people were just screaming at us and leaving anyway. So yeah, that's sort of it. I started with Myers Briggs, and, yeah, I just was really, really fascinated by Personality Typing. And when I started to talk to Emeka and David, I realized, and I started to type correctly. I mean, I still had my try fix wrong actually, but I started to type correctly. And I that's when they start. This is why it's so important to type correctly, because if you don't, you're just going to walk away. There's nothing there for you. It's going to just dissipate. But when I started to do it right and learn how to type from them, and start spotting the types, then I was like, Okay, there's, this is, this is everywhere. It's like seeing, I don't know, a new layer of life, so, except
Josh Lavine 8:20
that you didn't type correctly, and it still stayed for you. Yeah,
Joseph Stalteri 8:25
you know what? It didn't stay, I think, unless I'm trying to think, I typed as like, 741, so I wasn't even that far off for for some time. And then I typed as 478, because I had social, sexual correct, and because I had four correct, and it was enough for me to to dig into that. And because, sure, I had, I could, I was typing other people in my life correctly. And like learning about the types, it was enough to keep me going. And I mean, the problem with four is that, like again, there are just so few of them that we were shaping and learning what it was, even as we're still doing that, you know what I mean. So me typing this 478 seemed right at the time, and then, you know, it wasn't, you know, it was just like, well, actually, this is not, you know, we started because it's, it's just, we don't know. We don't know what other I don't even know if we have a 478 now, anywhere on our list, I don't even know what that looks like. I'm trying to think we don't. So
Josh Lavine 9:27
I thought Marlon Brando was a 478 874
Joseph Stalteri 9:29
he's he's eight, seven. Okay, yeah. We have try fix, but we don't have, like, four, four. Okay, yeah. So, you know, we don't have, there's so many four combinations, so we have no reference when we're typing, like, you know, another 973, with the exact overlay, we can be like, I remember those, those other samples, and call on them and be like and compare, but we can't do that with four. So, you know, I'm kind on myself for for mistyping my try fix, because I really had no, I no clue what it would look like in another try fix. Sure.
Josh Lavine 10:01
Sure I have, I have a real curiosity about you personally, because your content on any grammar is really, really good, and your facility with language around this stuff is really good. And even in your Dark Arts Academy videos, I mean, you're just like a fountain of like, you talk fast images, metaphors come to you quickly, and you're, you're just facile with this stuff, and it's the result, I imagine, of a lot of work, you know? I mean, this is probably my three point of view, but it's like you had to spend a lot of time with this material to develop the level of confidence that you have, and I'm really curious about what it was that drew you to it, and why it grabbed you so much. Yeah,
Joseph Stalteri 10:50
you know, honestly, I don't even, I don't know it's, it's, it's almost like I don't know, like, I'm a pianist. I love classical music. And to try to analyze why I like it is, like, it's sort of some kind of magnetic thing that just, you just, and I'm, I don't know the type person that changes a lot, you know what I mean, like, I just, well, like, I'll try a lot of different things, a bit of a polymath. But this stuck. You know, the piano stuck, the Enneagram stuck. And I think, I think what's interesting about the Enneagram is it combines a lot of the things. Like, I love categorizing people and observing people and analyzing people. I've always liked to do that. I don't understand people who are just like, I don't know. I got upset. It's just like, Yeah, but why? Why? Let's talk about like, all I want to do is talk. I don't want to I don't want to give them therapy. I don't want to help people. I don't care about helping people. About helping people. I just want to analyze and understand and, you know, categorize people, right? So it helps me do that. I also like to, I'm trying not to use so much ops language, because not everybody will know what I'm talking about. But I like to, like play, sort of speak. So I'm just, like playing with ideas, bouncing them back and forth, seeing things, spotting patterns, and then just, that's it. You can leave them there. That's just sort of what you do with the Enneagram. Or, like, we're constantly co creating the system and finding new patterns and and you do that by watching people. And, yeah, I don't, yeah, I don't know. It's like this creative discovery with interesting patterns. And you get to, it's, you get to talk to people. And also it's about analyzing behavior. And there's okay also, I'll say one thing, like, you definitely don't have to have a reactive or like four fix to be interested in the Enneagram. But at least the way that you know me and me and David do it? Is it like that? The fact that there's always like that, I that I can look at someone and be like, you're doing this ugly thing underneath, and that's what I that's what I see in people. It's not that I see all people as ugly. I think the world's a good place or whatever, but it's just like, but when people are acting on insecurities, like, I don't know, I mean, an example, like a type, like seven, for example, I love sevens. There's so much fun, and they're they're so entertaining. But sometimes you have a seven in your presence, and you're just kind of like, whoa. Like you need to chill. Like, are you okay? You know what I mean? Then you, then you start See, you start seeing the negative side of even the people that entertain you. And that's what the Enneagram like gives me. And I can just, like, play with it and see it. I'm gonna even have to do anything about it. I'm not here. I'm honestly not I'm kind of food for you. It's like, a nourishment, yeah, yeah, 100% and so. And I'm not here being like, you know, we all have to be better, and we have to work on ourselves and stuff. And I don't give a shit. I honestly just think this is really interesting, and because I know all this stuff about myself. I do work on myself, but it doesn't feel like work. You just do it because you're like, I'm like, I'm reacting to that pattern again. That's gross. I don't want to, you know, you just will do it. So I don't like attaching this, like, super ego thing to to like the work. I don't even like calling it work. I'm before. I don't want to work. I don't work. But like, when you know all this stuff, it doesn't feel like work to me. So I guess that's my answer. Is, like, it doesn't, it doesn't feel like work, which is why I was able to to work at it. Yeah, be this profession. Yeah, that thing
Josh Lavine 14:13
you said about, you know, you're upset underneath, and why? Why are you upset underneath and not understand, and not understanding why people wouldn't want to care about that. I think that's actually, in a sense, the spirit of my question to you around the Enneagram, like, right? What is what is it? What is going on? Like? Because partly, I mean, my fascination with you is that you have a an attitude of disdain towards, well, everything, but also even the work itself, or, Yes, like any grammar itself or something, it's like, you know, and, and so it's like, that feels like a kind of say it like this. It's well, in image language. It's like. Um, maybe that's, that's part of the the thing, or the could be part of the image. This is a dart of the board. You told me, If I'm right, but it's like part of the the image that you are cultivating. Or like it's a porcupine needle or spike. But there's some core, like deep caring about this. It feels to me that's like underneath the porcupine needle.
Joseph Stalteri 15:22
Yeah, I mean, I joke with I have a friend who's 964 and we always make jokes. We both love to go to fancy restaurants that we absolutely cannot afford. But you'll be sitting there and she'll take a photo of me, and she's like, You look disappointed. And I'm like, good, because what I want, what I we she, I mean, it's funny, she's better because she's got a four fix. She's better at, like, looking at it and making a joke about it than I am. Like, it's for me, it's like, all serious, but, um, she says it's like, she's like, I, what I want is to be disappointed in excess, like, I want to have every pleasure placed upon me, but it's not quite enough, which is frustration, but I think also the thing to know about fours, at least four wing threes, because I can't, I guess I can't speak for John or four wing fives, is that this kind of, like, disdain or frustration or whatever, like, I don't Know how to put this. It is just a natural resting state. So if I'm being disdainful or whatever about something, I hate everything, everything, everything's everything around me, every person I meet at all, just instantly go to hate. And then I sometimes let things surprise me. And the Enneagram keeps surprising me and keeps making me interested. But I know upfront I'm going to hate whatever you you give me. It's just not, it's not going to be interesting. It's not going to be enough. I I'm going to be like, I don't want to be part of this. There's this thing with four where you're not I try to, I'm trying to use the language, but it's, I just don't want it to sound nine ish, but you're like, what's the I'm not even part of any of this. So why should I engage with it at all? It's not even me so, but it keeps surprising me and it keeps impressing me and making me happy. Can you, can you frame
Josh Lavine 17:11
that in a in a way, or is it? Is it? Would it be authentic to you to frame it in a way that the Enneagram is affecting you at a heart level, as opposed to a head level, because a lot of the language that I'm hearing you say is, like, it's interesting to you. It's fascinating. It excites you, it surprises you. It feels a lot of like mental energy. And, yeah, and you're a forward to three when you're heart type. And so I'm curious about that.
Joseph Stalteri 17:39
Uh, sorry. What's your question? Sorry, again, yeah,
Josh Lavine 17:44
my question is, well, the language I used was something like, Would it be authentic to you to frame your fascination with the Enneagram from a heart point of view, or what is it? What is it? How does it? How does it touch your heart? Or does it touch your well,
Joseph Stalteri 18:00
you know, the thing about the heart types is that their heart's blocked. Like, it's not that we have this idea that the heart types are emotional, but I actually this is, I mean, it's my personal like, I find, I don't know like sixes to be extremely emotional. I find nines to be extremely emotional. But I think that the heart types are all creating some kind of heart image in a way that actually makes it so that their real heart isn't I don't always speak with heart language, because I don't think I'm always aware of what the real heart you know, John has better language for this, because I'm not the inner work guy. But, like, fours are not, like, emotionally open. It's, it's probably it's the, in a way, it's the it's almost the driest emotionally of the not dry. I don't know how to explain this. I don't think fours are emotionally wet and open the way that we imagine them. I don't think that that's true. I think they're actually very guarded. And because they're not allowed to be heart connected to anything. They block it. And then I think, you know, at least in my case, I you kind of go to your second center. I mean, I have a secondary six wing, seven fixed. It's loud and it's whatever, right? But you're not really, you're not really, I'm not really feeling, I don't know. I'm gonna pause that because I'm not sure how to finish that statement. Does that make any sense? It
Josh Lavine 19:22
does, but my curiosity is still kind of peaked in this direction, because I because I think, I mean, I'll speak for myself as a three or the four wing, sort of your specular image. It's, yes, I experienced my heart being blocked on a on a regular basis, but, but also, when my heart is touched, it's the most important thing to me. It's the most precious, the most salient, the most like juicy saying ever. And what got me into the Enneagram was when I took my first Enneagram class, it was like the first time I really ever felt seen. And that idea of being seen in the heart center is like. So important, so special, and so I guess I'm just kind of opening that doorway to that general explanation for you.
Joseph Stalteri 20:10
I don't think I want to be seen. I don't think I believe that anyone could see me.
Josh Lavine 20:15
I see that's that, that's the four yeah thing. That's it, right there. Yeah, of course I do, yeah, yes, yeah, yeah, yeah,
Joseph Stalteri 20:23
but I don't. And so four is often, maybe not even attracted to the Enneagram, because the idea that you could that some description, or whatever could know you is like, I'm not a part of I'm not that's you can't see me. You don't understand, right? Because then you're that's really hard for four, because now you just open just opening up this, this thing where you're like, oh, everything I do is inauthentic.
Josh Lavine 20:48
Is there anything like a secret hope or desire that's like, very guarded, that is, like, I want to be seen, but just the the expectation that you're going to be disappointed because no one can see you? That's kind of how I feel, actually, as a through the four wing, and I wonder,
Joseph Stalteri 21:04
um, for you, yes, but in it's narrowed into very specific funnels. Let's say I expect, like there's three people maybe on this planet that I would expect to to seem okay like when I so there's very few, if I really open up to a person, I re i i look at a person or a thing or whatever, and I'm like, this is actually not disappointing to me. This is great. Then, yes, I want to be seen. But because 99% of everything is just kind of base level, disappointing. I don't care. I don't bother. It's not even interesting. I would be offended if one of those people, or whatever said that they understood me or saw me or just be like, Oh, okay. You know that is ridiculous, but it's true. So I mean, but I think in terms of the Enneagram, I don't know. I'm trying to, I think, I think, in a way, that Enneagram is a heady, the way that we do it is very heady. It is kind of just like, let's play with ideas, sure, yeah. So,
Josh Lavine 22:18
yeah, what in your life feeds your heart? Or is there something, you
Joseph Stalteri 22:28
know, I don't even think about that. I don't think about my heart. Anything about heart makes me want to vomit. I sort of, I guess, my instincts, but um, I really music. I think I can. I've said that, like, I don't cry in real situations. I cry when I'm listening to or playing music or or watching like a movie or something that's really affecting me. So art makes me cry, but not real situations. Yeah, so that. But, you know, there are these like moments where the people I really care about will do something, and it does catch me off guard, and I'm almost like, oh, like, I'm I want to cry, or I want to smile or laugh, and that wasn't the that wasn't what I wanted, or I'm gonna, I'm gonna sound too sweet, or I'm gonna sound too nice, and I can't have that. It's not or whatever, like I need to be stiff or so this is, you know, like a one fix thing too. It's, it's a whole. But those are, yeah, those are rare. You know, the people in my life that I really care about will, will sometimes break there. But, yeah, I mean, with art, yeah, I'm really quite raw. Yeah, you could find me listening to like a string quartet, and I'll be like bawling, or like jumping around the room or whatever, but like, if we're having a conversation, I'm not going to give you that.
Josh Lavine 23:56
Right, right? Yeah, what's let's talk about music. So you're sure you've been a piano player your whole life, yeah, and that's something that is in the same category as, at least as I'm considering it any grammar for you in the sense that you've really devoted a lot of your life energy to cultivating musicianship, and it's something that you that continues to be a thing that you care about, a thing that, maybe another way to put it is, a thing that continues to surprise you, is that, would that be a fair way to put it? Yeah, for something that that keeps getting in past the film of skepticism or disdain or whatever? Yes,
Joseph Stalteri 24:39
yeah, yeah. And I guess it's interesting because, you know, maybe because you're three or because most of the world is a three fix. But people often talk about this stuff as, like, you cultivated, you worked, you did this, you don't. And I can't even stress how little I, you know, and which is fine, it's but I can't even stress like i The second that something. Is work. I throw it. I just don't, don't, I don't want to do this. Yeah, yeah. But yes, I have spent hours and hours of my life, days, every single day, and since, until I was, since I was like five, playing classical music at the piano. And I did that only because it was like pure bliss while I was doing it. So if there were moments where it was like, you know, you you can play this, but you really should be drilling. You know, most pianists, I would say, are self pro social nines, right? Because it's like, they can sit there and drill and do that building block self present, because kind of like, okay, you have to practice this one passage over and over and over again. And I'm like, I'm not doing that. But because I loved music so much I would just play all the time, so I still got good but it was not work. It was not any kind of conscious cultivation at all. It was just very much like, I just want to do this, and I still want to do it. And it's the same with the Enneagram. I'm literally just like, you know, any grammar is work. We have to do work, we have to answer emails, we have to be whatever. But like, really, it's not work. Like, it doesn't feel like work. We've set it up, and we all kind of know this. It's, I mean, a lot of four fixes, I think, are the same. It can't be work. It has to just be, like, fun, or whatever, or, I don't know fun is the right word, but something that's just feeding you what? Yeah,
Josh Lavine 26:20
what's what is
Joseph Stalteri 26:22
the right word? Pleasure, maybe, interest. Interest, intriguing.
Josh Lavine 26:30
Yeah, is music something that you share with other people and like, do you play for other people or with other people, or listen to music with other people, or is it so?
Joseph Stalteri 26:41
Yeah, so I this is, I guess this goes back to the question that you asked me about being seen, because this is maybe a good kind of example. But I learned when I was young that, like, audiences were trash, and that, well, like I'd be learning, you know, I would never be learning music, and like, my aunts and uncles would be over, my parents would be like, play something, and I'd be like, no, like, I don't, I don't. I don't just perform. I'm not like a like a monkey with the symbol, like, I just, I don't do that. And then, but at the same time, there was, of course, a desire in me to do that. But I would do it, and they'd be talking or something during it, because people don't know how to listen to classical music. And I'd be like, This is disgusting. I'm never playing for you again. So on one hand, yes, I want people to listen to me, and I want to, I don't know, be validated or whatever. It's just really nice when something that you're doing is received. But most of the time, people don't really know what they're listening for. So sometimes, you know, if people in my house, my partner, whatever, listening to me and commenting whatever, feels really great, because it's like, oh, you know, I'm it's, it's like, nicer to cook for two right? It's just better to to have somebody else experience this with you. And like, you know, but for the most part, no, I just like to play by myself. Or, you know, I could have, I could have done stuff like played the piano at weddings, but, like, I don't care about people's love and their bliss and the stupid, dumbass songs that they want at their wedding that I have to play over and over again, whatever it's not, I just want to play what I want, and I would love for somebody to hear what I want and enjoy it. There are just very few scenarios where that's going to happen. And, you know, I'm good, but I'm not, I'm not quite good enough to be. I'm not, like, top 10 pianists in the world or whatever, and that's pretty much what you have to be to have, like, a concert career. So, so I'm not doing that, but I don't want to do these, like, gigs where I'm, like, I don't know, playing at someone's wedding or a funeral, whatever. It's like, good money, but like, I don't, I don't care. I don't I don't care. I don't want to be background and shit.
Josh Lavine 28:46
Yeah, one of the ways that I conceive of the heart center is it's about how people are paying attention to you or gazing upon you, or like the quality of their gaze, and gaze as an abstract term, but like, the way that someone's paying attention to you. And so if someone is like, you're playing music, which is very personal and precious to you, and they're not paying attention to talking or something like that, it's like, that's a miss. It's a heart miss. You know, the music
Joseph Stalteri 29:13
is me. It's the only Yeah, yeah. So you're not seeing me. You're not Yeah, right. What happens
Josh Lavine 29:21
when someone, like a partner or something like that is really listening to you when you play?
Joseph Stalteri 29:25
Oh, it's great. You know that that that's very disarming, and it makes me pretty statically happy. Yeah, yeah. It's very nice. Imagine,
Josh Lavine 29:33
yeah, yeah. Why classical?
Joseph Stalteri 29:39
You know, I don't know. I think I just liked it. I think that I don't know. I'm gonna, I'm gonna talk and someone's gonna say that. What I'm saying is, like, Eurocentric or whatever. But I just, I just really love classical art music. I think it's the best music. This is my opinion. I mean, everybody can have their own opinion. I don't care. But I just think it's. Um, some of the most complex and special music that I've ever discovered. And I like lots of other music too. I love, like, I don't know I like electronic dance music. I mean, there's all kinds of other things that I like, but, yeah, just from a young age, I had a piano teacher that was Lithuanian. She was from Europe, and so she was kind of raised in the classical tradition, and she started to give me some scores and some music. And I don't know, I think I started, I started by discovering Beethoven. I have a tattoo of him on my arm, social, sexual, and I, I just ripped through him. I still love him. Now again, that's, I mean, he's sort of like, if I have a an idol or a god or whatever, because I don't have any, it would be him, because his music just consistently overwhelms me no matter how many times I listen to it. And there are some other composers as well, but, yeah, it just, I just took to it. I don't really like jazz, and I, you know, I don't want to play pop music. Yeah, I just honestly, I mean, the simple answer is, I think it's better,
Josh Lavine 31:06
yeah, yeah,
Joseph Stalteri 31:07
it's better, yeah.
Josh Lavine 31:11
This is, I'm not sure how, what the question is going to be in this, but it feels, to me, when you're talking about classical music, it feels like you know, that's a, that's a sincere love of that thing, you know, it's, it's not, it's not an, it's not an image that you're projecting. I mean, it could, it's like it could end up being that it becomes part of your aura, right? No, I'm a classical piano player or something like that, you know. But how do you do? Let's see the where I'm trying to go is like splitting a hair between when something starts as an authentic like sincere love and then it becomes part of your image, versus when it stays in that, like, maybe more pure place. And pure is a complicated word in that context, but you understand what my question
Joseph Stalteri 32:01
is. Yeah, yeah, yeah, no. It's an interesting question for hard types as well. And again, I think, I mean, fours and threes are different, in a sense, because threes have this, like, amazing ability to, like, achieve things, even if they don't even like what they're doing. Sometimes, you know what I mean, like, you can be three that's like, on top of the world, and you're like, you don't even like this, not always. But like, threes are so good at just doing that they can, you know, that's not, that's not an ability I have. So I can say that like, oh, you know, being a classical pianist sounds like I'm part of the aristocracy, and that makes me, that's it suits my image, or whatever. But like, No, I do this. I do this by myself. Like, I don't, I don't care. It is mostly something that I experience on my own, that I do on my own. It is so genuine. It has it. It will get conflated with the heart center, with the image, all that, because everything does. But at the end of the day, when I look back on my life, and I look at the things that I just keep doing, no matter what, I know that I don't even have the freaking ability to do something that I'm not really into the image. It's not enough. You know what? I mean, like, do I really, really care about this? If I'm still doing it, and like you said, it's like a ton of work that I don't even feel is work, then it's true.
Josh Lavine 33:13
How much, in terms of in this conversation around image, does your let me just pause for a second, because so this question I'm about to ask is kind of like in the context of image, are there things that you love that just don't fit the image that you have of yourself or that you're trying to protect? And then, by contrast, are there things in the reverse direction that like do fit your image, that you just don't really like that much, but that you kind of do anyway for your image? Yeah,
Joseph Stalteri 33:49
that's an interesting question. I got to think about that. I mean, yes, stuff for the first one, yes. I mean, there are things where I think I can make it like, I mean, for example, I think I've made jokes about like, Harry Potter because we've typed JK Rowling, whenever Harry Potter is basic, it's whatever it is, right? It's Harry Potter, but I like them. You know what? I mean? I don't like I mean, but I have to, I guess, the way that I make things fit my image, and I'm not, this isn't images. It's honest. Truth is that I have to chisel. It's like, I don't just say that I like something. I say I like it, but also I'm aware that it's this and it's this, and this is why. Yeah, okay, so it's fine, so I can like it, you know what I mean. But yeah, there are a lot of things like, for the most part, again, I don't know it's difficult, right? Because part of part of four and one is like, constantly chiseling and striving for everything to be at the highest level of quality. But it's like, I I do that because I feel it like I don't know where one ends and the other begins, like I don't need everyone to see that I'm eating the best gelato. But I still want it, and I still enjoy it, you know, and I still don't want Chapmans. So do you have Chapmans?
Josh Lavine 34:59
Because I. It? No, I don't, but I get the, I'm guessing it's like a shitty ice cream brand or something like that.
Joseph Stalteri 35:04
Yeah, that's nothing. It's like those boxes, yeah? Anyway, whatever you know, like, so I don't, it's hard to say, I don't know, like, I think, I think the thing to say is that, like, a lot of this stuff is so deep that it just kind of is who you are, even if it's like, not who you are, because it's a type and blah, blah, blah. Like, this is just me. Like, I don't know if you take all this stuff away, I don't know what's under it. Again, maybe that's a question for John in her work. I don't know. But like, this is I'm I put a lot of effort into finding everything. I was just thinking too, as we were, as I was about to, I whatever, just changing my course of direction here. But the thing about image is it nobody has to be watching you in order for you to, like, do things, right? Like, you know that like you could just be like, you could just, like, just do something, and no one's looking and you still, you're feeding your own image, right?
Josh Lavine 36:03
Right? Yes,
Joseph Stalteri 36:04
yeah,
Josh Lavine 36:05
that's, I was just gonna ask that question. Is like, when you so when you say the statement, I like? JK Rowling, it's like, if there's a person in the room versus if there's not a person in the room, the experience of you admitting to yourself you like, JK Rowling isn't necessarily that different, is right? Kind of what you're saying, Yeah, because, because what's like, what's happening inside, it's like, you have the thought, I really like Harry Potter, you know, yeah, and then, and then what?
Joseph Stalteri 36:33
Then you're like, ill, um, do I? And then, why do I you start analyzing because you're like, That's not That's gross, or, I don't know, you know what? For the most part, when it comes to art, I don't know if that's the best example. When it comes to art, I'm I like what I like. I'm not going to be ashamed of liking something. I think for the most part, you know, if there are some shitty whatever things that I like, and it does cause some like, inner discourse, like, Why do I like this 90s dance hero song or whatever? But I'm like, oh, it's nostalgia. I can always reason my way out of like, the things that don't fit. You know,
Josh Lavine 37:15
yes, I just had a thought, I'm not gonna be facile with this Lent but that feels like in the Gurdjieff work, the mixing of the center, or the scrambling of the centers, kind of thing, head center, doing the hearts job kind of thing,
Joseph Stalteri 37:26
right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. That makes sense.
Josh Lavine 37:33
What's inner work like for you? Or like when you say that you well, actually just period, question mark, what's it like?
Joseph Stalteri 37:40
Yeah, because you said the W word
Josh Lavine 37:44
work, actually, you go, you go, you go,
Joseph Stalteri 37:49
honestly, I don't. I do not ever consciously do any kind of inner work. Yeah, but I know that I do. I know that. I don't know you have a disagreement with your partner. You're not just like, I'm just kind of like, Hey, I'm applying everything I know to this. Because how can I not taking some space figuring out so that that is inner work? That's like, okay, you know, this isn't this is about me, or what's my problem? What can I do about this? Who am I? All that stuff? That's inner work. I'm not doing it as some kind of strategy or whatever. It's just more like, well, when you have knowledge, you're going to use it. How can you non you know, you'd have to purposely block out knowledge. So that's pretty much what it means to me. I'm not here trying to, I don't know, transcend anything. I don't care about any of that. I don't care about spirits. I don't care. I just, you know, I think having this knowledge is interesting, and I apply it because I think that's what we do when we have
Josh Lavine 38:51
knowledge. Do you have a spiritual orientation, or did you grow up in any kind of way religious? Or does it function in your life? Yeah.
Joseph Stalteri 39:00
I mean, you know, we were sort of Italian Catholics, but no, I don't have any spiritual like, and actually, a lot of the spiritual stuff about the Enneagram just makes me like, What the hell are we talking about here? Sure, I don't, I don't know. It's very yeah, I've had this conversation with David and Mecca too, about, like, the spiritual side of the Enneagram. And I'm just like, I don't, there's a block here. I don't have any concept of this. It's not interesting to me. I don't care. I don't this. I never got into Gurt, you know, I've read about girches. I understand, you know, I want to know the origin of the anagram and all this stuff. But, like, I don't, I starts to lose me. I don't know. I'm not interested. I'm I'm really interested in playing with people, like not physically playing with them, but playing with the ideas about people.
Josh Lavine 39:43
Yeah, yeah. I
Joseph Stalteri 39:46
think that's why I'm good at typing. Honestly, because that that is, I can see it's like its own skill. You know, you just have to be good at that thing. Doesn't mean I can't do the spiritual thing on the side. But it's like, this is not what this is about. It's about I've often
Josh Lavine 39:58
had that thought that. The three of you aren't, in a sense, distracted by the need to empathize or the need to have a physical self image. You know what I'm saying? Like, yeah, totally. And that kind of softens the the sharp edges of the Enneagram in a way that you guys, you haven't dulled those, those edges through some kind of inner work or spiritual, yeah, orientation. You know what I'm saying? I find that really interesting. Yeah.
Joseph Stalteri 40:29
I mean, to be honest with you, I really don't care what about like, I don't want to help people. I'm not saying that it's because I'm I'm selfish, or I don't care, or whatever. Like, I'm like, a person, but I literally, it just I don't have the gene in me that's like, I want to make sure everyone's on the right path. Like, I don't give a shit what path you're on. Like, get out of my face. But it's I do care about giving people like I do, like giving people typings, because it's like setting a bomb off in their house. But like, if they use this properly, it's gonna be bombs, not the right metaphor. Matt, fire some, because the, I don't know, like, the fire is gonna burn down old shit and then new shits gonna grow, or something, I don't know, just somebody make up a metaphor, you know, like, because you can either I like it because you're either kind of like, you know, getting the typing is like, it can be like, Whoa. You know what? I mean, it's huge thing. Overhauls, it's very, you know, even when I found out I had a six fix, I didn't sleep for like, two days, it was just huge. But I like that, because I like those peak moments, and I like being able to give that to people again. I don't really care what they do with it. Of course, I want them to do something positive with it, because why not? But if you use this the right way, it could be the most important thing that ever happens in your life. But really, again, like, that's cool, but my motivation is just that I really like typing. I like the feeling. It's like people who like answering math equations. It just makes you feel good when you got it. Or, like, doing the Wordle in the morning, I, like typing. It's like a it's like, my Wordle, you know,
Josh Lavine 42:07
yeah, yeah. Something you just says is interesting to me, that when you when you found out you had a six fix, it sort of overturned your world. Oh, my god, yeah. What else has done that for you in your life? Anything else,
Joseph Stalteri 42:28
like, not any gram related
Josh Lavine 42:31
or, yeah, any something that's like just penetrated through whatever psychological barriers to totally change something for you clear before and after?
Joseph Stalteri 42:41
Um, no, I don't know if I can think of anything. Uh, specifically, I've had big things sort of happened to me my life, like romantic things, breakups, whatever things that were that felt really cataclysmic, and, you know, changed my whole perception of something. But no, I mean, I think, you know, the Enneagram is the only thing that's that's made me feel that way, where I'm literally, my eyes have opened to a new, you know, whatever, yeah, yeah. I can't think of anything else,
Josh Lavine 43:19
okay, yeah, I have a totally different topic.
Joseph Stalteri 43:23
Yeah, go ahead.
Josh Lavine 43:25
I'm curious about your journey, and I know you hate that word, but I'm gonna use it anyway, as a as a gay man, and like when you came out, and from the point of view of being a four versus, I think where I'm about to go with this, or just kind of give you the punch, you the punch line up front, is, I think that type three is an attachment. Types, in a sense, have to come out of their own closet, whether or not they're gay, but there's a sense of, like, coming out as myself and like, okay, clarifying and excavating myself over the course of time, okay, I remember when I, you know what I'm saying, there's a there's a clear metaphor there, and I think the gay community is inspiring in this way. It's like, personally, an inspiration to me, even though I'm not a gay person. But the I was, I'm curious about what it was like for you to come out as a four, and your relationship with the image of being gay as a four.
Joseph Stalteri 44:16
Yeah, that's yeah. I know that's a good question. So, you know, I was lucky to be able to come out in a generally positive environment. Not everybody gets that. So, you know, as awkward, it was very awkward, yes, because it was, it was, I came when I was young. I came when I was a 1516, that's another thing. There's, that's the fourth thing too. Was just like, yeah, there you go, yeah. I wasn't, yeah, and I knew, like, it was before that. And I just was terrified. And I finally was like, okay, like, I honestly don't, because there's this thing I've said this about attach it versus hexad. There's this thing where you're like, it's not possible for me to adapt. So why am I gonna say something if I'm looking at you and saying something like, you know. I have long, lustrous hair, I'm that's how much of a lie it would feel like, because how could I possibly pretend that I don't, I don't even know how to do that and have that ability at all. Yeah, so I, you know, I did, but I'll say, you know, I've had a lot of and I actually, I've also say I've had a lot of the people that have been activists and have come out first, and the sort of stereotype of what a gay man looks like is seven. You know, David actually said this to me yes years ago, and I was like, yes, because right, seven is a hexad type that is assertive and positive and fantasy. They're the ones that are just storming out the rainbow flag. The rainbow flag Exactly. There's so many. The word gay, you know, he that was David, yeah, right. But it's great, because those are the people, those are the people that are bold enough to be exactly who they are and amplify it times 1000 to the point where it's obnoxious or whatever, right? So on one hand, I understand that, but on the other hand, I have had a lot of trouble, like, not even trouble, because I don't know if I can. I think when I was younger, I did want, like, you know, when you come in, like, Okay, well, I'm, I'm still social. I want to be part of some gay community. Like, maybe there's, you know, some, but like, I'm constantly feeling like I'm not because I don't like clubbing and I don't like partying, and I don't like rainbows and I don't like, I don't like a lot of that humor. I don't like drag queens. I don't like a lot of the stuff that, like everybody just sort of attaches to, so to speak, because it's like, what gay people do, or whatever. So I've tried, though, because, you know, part of, part of my, I guess, inner work that I, maybe I'm conscious of doing is trying not to avoid things, just because, you know, I just to be like, hey, you know what? You might not hate this, try it just or, like, go into it, you know, like, go to a drag performance, or just do something like that, just to see you might not hate it, but I hate it. So that's it. But, yeah, that's, that's kind of the Yeah, go ahead. Go ahead. Well,
Josh Lavine 47:00
I'm curious about so you use the word community, which is a really interesting word from, I mean, it's a social word, and also it's a word that is complicated in the context of type four, because of, well, feelings of belonging and things like that, and being frustration and not liking things, and, you know, all that stuff. I'm curious about your experience as a well, do you feel like you belong in the gay community or, I mean, get all the list of things that you just said that you hate, you know, you get my or my question, yeah,
Joseph Stalteri 47:36
no, I don't. I mean, this is the thing I don't. Subconsciously all the time, I don't feel like I belong anywhere, in anything, even in my home, nowhere, but real consciously, I think that I can see that I I don't belong. I don't have a lot in common with, like, the culture of whatever's mainstream, but that there's no such thing as belonging in the gay community. It doesn't really mean anything besides your orientation. Sure, so, and I don't, again, I don't even, I don't really see it as a community, like I said that, because I think there is one there. Like, it's almost one of those words that, like, you said, I don't know, it's weird. Like, I don't audit, I don't even think about community, but then I'm kind of aware that, like, okay, I guess there's a community here or whatever. Like, I'm sort of aware of it, but also rejecting it at the same time. It's a weird relationship I have with that whole idea, because I do, I'm social, and I have a secondary attachment fix, especially six. Six is, like, super community based and tribal. But I'm also like, I'm trying to think of an example so I can really kind of, like, open this up for you. I think
when I think when I was younger, I'd be like, Okay, I'm gonna go to this, like, bar or something. And had this idea that I would kind of go in and, like, because I get this social FOMO and, like, feel some kind of sense of community, but like, the second I go in there, I'd be like, No, I'm uncomfortable. I hate this. I don't want to be here, but this is gross to me. I'm not. We have to leave. And when I was, even when I was in high school, or even elementary High School, like, you know, you know, you do that thing. This happens more when we were younger, but like, you're, you'd be hanging out with a friend, and she's like, Yeah, like, I just, I want to bring, like, my three friends. That's cool, right? You're like, No, it's not fucking cool. I don't like any of those people. Like, I'm just so, so I'm how to I'm aware of the sense of community. I just need to be the one who's creating it, and it's small and specific. And I don't want to say elite, because that makes it sound like this is about, like, status or money. It's just about like, Who do I think is interesting, and when you're talking about. Public communities, public spaces. That's never possible. Yes, yeah, I
Josh Lavine 50:06
understand, yeah, that that's, I
Joseph Stalteri 50:07
think that's kind of what is happening with my idea of community. I do want one. I used to have, like, little parties when I am social, sexual. I had parties. I had groups of friends. I made up nicknames. I haven't have my own special language that I speak with my friends, it's ridiculous. I'm not going to talk about it, but I do. It's very all these little kind of social, sexual things. But I'm it's very much like you, you No, no, no, and then okay, you're here, and close the door and this I can allow myself in this space, and even in those spaces, I will get moments where I'm like, oh God. But for the most part, I can feel comfortable in those spaces and like I do want that community feeling but it's extremely specific and even still, generally disappointing. How
Josh Lavine 50:54
do you feel towards the Enneagram or Universe community?
Joseph Stalteri 51:00
It's like I hate them, they're all shit. No, I don't interact much. It's hard. I mean, I don't know it's hard because I'm no longer in the group, like I'm running the group, so I can't act the same way, or I don't know, whatever, interact in the same way, I guess. But I think there are some people in this community that are extremely brilliant, like, really, and I really like reading what they have to say, and here and there I will interact, you know. But I feel about this community here's the end. I mean, I feel about this community the way I feel about any community. It's the same kind of thing I don't walk out into the common space. Yeah, you know, it's not just because I'm like, I'm better than you. It's just kind of like, that's not my place. I need to find my own wherever, you know, like space. And maybe some people in that common space shouldn't be in the common space, and they should be here with me, or whatever. But I've had to learn over and over again through my life, you can't do that. You can't just walk into a common space and say, You, you not you. I don't like your face, you know. You have to just, you have to just do these. You have a staff party. It just has to be everyone you know. You have a group of friends, and that girl you hates there, she just has to come because she was there and she was listening. And just like, you know, that's I was really rude about those things when I was younger, because I didn't understand that it was a problem. I just be like, I don't like, I don't want her to come. I just wanted to be the two of us, even if it was another friend that I liked. I'm like, No, this is our time. It's just the two of us. She doesn't come to this. And people would be like, what's wrong with you? And I'm like, this is just, I don't understand what's wrong with you. How are we all? We're all just in this space. Now, nobody's really, you know, we went out in New York, all of us, and it was amazing, because I had never met you, and I had David, never even met David and Mecca in person, and I had actually met John once. I never met Alexandra. So it was really cool. But I was also like, one, I'm not I just want to sit down and talk to David, or just a Mecca, or just, I just want to sit down and have a conversation, but I can't, because we're all just now, we're all extremely interesting people, but we're all just kind of, like, in this, like, you know, community this, like, like, the more things that you add, the more it just is like common denominator, even with people as interesting as us, yeah, so, yeah, I'm sorry. I'm just my mind is not linear. I'm just kind of, like, riffing on whatever comes to my mind here. So I don't know if anyone
Josh Lavine 53:27
I get it. I mean, I mean, I'm pulling a couple threads up. First of all, there's the sense of, like, what you're maybe craving as a social for is the sense of quality of refined social intimacy and, and that's possible in a one on one context, because you can, sort of, you can go somewhere with someone, you know, or, like, a container is small enough that it's not going to get infiltrated or contaminated by, yeah, by by some other elements that you didn't invite in, you know. And it's a different it's interesting. It's like, we talk about boundaries with the body sensor the eight, but it's like, there's a certain kind of emotional or social boundary that you're wanting to set up here that is impermeable. But it's really it, yeah, but it's a kind of, it's a fantasy. It's not actually possible to have an impermeable boundary, right? And that's partly what sets up the disappointment of the of the four structure. Now
Joseph Stalteri 54:23
the fantasy thing that you're saying is really important, because, you know, yeah, four, seven and nine are fantasy types.
The Imperial boundary, permeable boundary, is a fantasy but also the idea that I could possibly find, even if there were a boundary, we had a moat. The idea that there is actually something as good as I want there to be, or whatever that I can actually put in this moat is also a fantasy, right? I'm living the fantasy for forests is that they aren't supposed to be in the common space. The common space is for everybody, and. I'm a human being, right? But the fantasy that's consistent with fours is that I'm not over there, I'm supposed to be I'm over here, I'm somewhere else, right? And that's a totally unconscious that's how you open your eyes every day. But that's a fantasy. It's not real because we're all just the same. Really, we're all people. I'm saying those words is disgusting to me, but it's true. We're all just the same. We're all people. We all have the same stupid types and feelings or whatever. There's nothing that, you know, really separates me from the crowd and or anyone else so but and that. But that's the before fantasy. And I try to, you know, I idolize people who I think separate, like, you know, Beethoven, for example. This is something example. This is somebody who is a titan of a person in my mind, but he still just as a
Josh Lavine 55:48
person. Yeah, when you were participating in public forums, okay, partly, this question is about to be about like you were participating in public forums on the Enneagram before you created Enneagram, or an Enneagram or universe. And I'm interested in the difference between participating in a public forum that wasn't your space, that you chose to, sort of like, have some comments on, versus a thing that partly you helped birth and is technically yours, in the sense that it's like, this is a community that you created, helped
Joseph Stalteri 56:26
create, yeah, they really aren't different, because at the end of the day, this forum is still an open group. Like, you know, I mean, we kick out people if they're like, Yeah, trash or whatever, but for the most part, we want people to just be free to, like, just enjoy and, you know, do whatever they want. So it feels the same. But I would say, before I was looking for David and Emeka, so to speak, I was looking, I was like, hey, who am I? You know, so I was participating in ways that were even kind of gross to me. But just because I was like, I need to, you know, go out and find, you know, David has this whole system where he talks about the social instinct being the the search, and then the sexual is the finding, and self pres is the nesting or something. Whatever. I don't there's something. There's something about social where you're like, I have to go outside. I have to look. If I want to find that ideal, that fantasy, social ideal, I have to go and look for it. I don't have it yet. So I have to put myself out there. And I'm not, I'm good at doing that. If I have to do it, yeah, that's interesting now that I found it, so I don't need to, right now I have it. So, yeah,
Josh Lavine 57:34
is that hard for you to I mean, that's a withdrawn type too, and it's like, what? What threshold internally do you have to cross of loneliness or frustration before you have enough life force to like, Okay, I'm launching we're gonna launch myself out there.
Joseph Stalteri 57:51
I The one thing about frustration is that it's an incredible motivator, because you're just like, there's nothing else that you can see or feel except the thing that you're frustrated about and want. So if I want something that badly, which honestly, that's not hard, I want things that badly all the time, there's always something that I'm desperate for, and that feeling will make me like I'll get it. I'll just do whatever it takes, because it's all I can think about, you know. So this is something that I really want. I really want to get. I want this Enneagram knowledge. I wanted to know more than anything. So I was like, well, whatever I got to go out. I have to look, I have to find, I have to just do it. Have to find every book. I have to study with this teacher, that teacher, whatever it's like, not even it's like, brainless, almost, you just do it. Because, yeah, yeah, yeah. When something triggers, and I have two frustration types, and something triggers that level of frustration, it's there's not that's what you that's what you are, that's your whole consciousness. Yeah, yeah.
Josh Lavine 58:55
What's attractive to you about having an image of being disdainful?
Joseph Stalteri 59:00
I don't know. I don't even think I honestly, I mean, this idea of having an image that's being disdainful, I know I talk about it. Does that even talk about not the right question, in a sense, no, no. It's, I mean, it is, I think it's true, but it's like I was not conscious of that at all. This is the thing when you type you like, I mean, I didn't know, like. I thought there are many times when I was in like, early 20s, and I'd go on dates and people be like, you're really rude, or you're really or, you know, you seem like you you were, I don't know, it'd be like, some DJ or something, like, you're so, like, negative. And I'm like, Huh? I am like, I really, it seems crazy, but I had no clue. So I don't think it's something that's attractive to me, because it's so again, these things are so again, these things are so unconscious. I don't sit there and think about, like, I want to make sure I look disdainful. I it just is there. It's just like, my whole thing, well, but,
Josh Lavine 59:49
but also, I mean, I don't know, 30 minutes ago, you were like, you know, somebody took a photo of you, and she was like, You look disappointed. Oh, yeah, that that sort of thing. Yeah. Right.
Joseph Stalteri 1:00:00
Okay, so, yeah, now I guess at this point that I'm conscious of it what's attractive, but I don't know. I guess it just it feels, it feels true. I think
I, I was, I mean, she said, You look disappointed in the photo. And I was because I was sitting there, and I was like, This is good, but it's nothing's ever quite an I think it's because, yeah, the truth to me is that nothing's ever enough. That's the truth about life. Nothing's ever enough for me. So if that's coming across, then I guess I don't think I liked it when I was younger. I think I didn't like it because people didn't like it. And, well, most people, I don't care what they think, but there were people I'd be like, Oh, I don't know why. Why is my mom telling me that I'm or, you know what I mean, that I'm my dad's a seven so he'd be like, you really need to be being negative. And I'm like, I you know, I didn't, I didn't like that because I didn't really want to upset my dad. I was just being myself. But now I guess it's just like, well, I guess it is what it is. This is how I look. And I think, I think it would feel very inauthentic to me if I were presenting an image of like, upness and positivity and joy.
Josh Lavine 1:01:13
That's it's interesting to me the way that you're framing this, because it's not like a like, the idea of disdain is not a thing that you were like, oh, I want to cultivate this. It was like, the idea is that it's what the way it happened was, well, you're used the word true. It feels true is interesting to me. Like, this is who I am, in a sense, right? So in a sense, I mean, does partly okay. I'm just revealing my own perspective here as a Bermuda three. It's like the idea of me cultivating an image of disdain, or coming across a stainful or some kind of way. It's like that is beyond a some internal threshold of polarizing that is like, I just don't know that I could sustain it there. I could maybe do it for like, five minutes, or even, not even that. But like the idea of this being a lifestyle, and when a photo is taken to me that I want it to look, to stand for or appear disappointed, it's just, it's fascinating to me, and so because it's different from my experience, but it feels to me like this idea of, it's, it's just true to you. It's like a way of revealing yourself,
Joseph Stalteri 1:02:24
right now, yeah, yeah, it's right. That's, it is a way of revealing yourself, right? Because at the end of the day, I mean, no, I wasn't, I'm never consciously trying to think of this. But when here and there, if someone says something like that, it might trigger some feeling of like, oh, you know what, yeah, okay, that feels right to me in some way, that if you're saying I look disappointed, or you're saying I don't know, it really depends on the context, because there are people who've said that and it's hurt my feelings, because I'm like, I'm not even disappointed, or I don't want to look like that or whatever, right? But I just know now, at this point, you know this happened, that thing. It was happened recently after I knew I was a four. So I'm kind of more conscious of it, but I just know now, at this point, that I'm like, why would I mean, if that's what's showing up in pictures, then that's what's real. So it's, I guess. So I guess it's true. You know what? I mean? I don't know. Is there? I don't Yeah, is
Josh Lavine 1:03:18
there a different quality in, um, when you have a reflex and you're like, oh, jazz is trash or, you know, and you just like that, I hate that thing. Yeah, in a sense, I'm getting from you like that. It feels real. And so that's what you're saying, and that's it. But is there a different quality of revealing yourself when it's something like when you're talking about classical music and it's something that you really
Joseph Stalteri 1:03:53
love? No, I think it's the same.
Josh Lavine 1:03:56
That is fascinating. That's really interesting. Yeah. I mean,
Joseph Stalteri 1:03:59
they're both, um, I guess in my mind, cultivating the utmost quality and artistry in everything is what everyone should be doing all the time.
So whether you're putting something down or lifting it up, you're really doing the same thing you are. This is by one fix talking to but you're refining and leveling. I'm saying by saying I hate something or saying I love something, I'm still telling you who I am. They're not different.
Josh Lavine 1:04:42
Yeah, yeah. Do you ever catch yourself saying something that you later reflect was inauthentic?
Joseph Stalteri 1:04:52
Yes, yeah. You know, there are times here and there where I might I. Uh, the answer is yes, but I don't know if I have an example for you at this moment. Yeah, I have to think about that one
Josh Lavine 1:05:11
as a three. I mean, this is where the question comes from. Is as a three I am. I used to lie a lot when I was a kid, and it was just like, weird and ridiculous and about things that didn't matter. You know? It was just a reflex. It was a kind of habit that I got into. I remember when I was 17 or something, sitting on a bench looking at a lake or something like that. Was just kind of reflecting, like, why do I do this? Yeah, you know, and yeah, it wasn't until later, and when I won the Enneagram that I really, really, really, really started to look at this. And every once in a while now I'm like, I'm 35 now, but it's like, every once in a while I'll catch myself slipping back into like, I'll just having coffee with someone, and oops, something slipped out that was I'm trying to, I would love to give an example, because I think it sounds like nefarious or horrible, and this is my image, since we're talking, but it's like, but it's like, it's, it's, it's really, in a sense, silly and innocent. It's like, someone asked me what I did this morning, and I'm like, Oh, I, you know, all of a sudden I'm saying to the person I just I did my laundry, but I didn't, and it's like, why would I even say that? Say that? And it's like, you know what I'm saying? It's and it's so and it's kind of a, it's a signal to me that I'm not centered, you know. And so that's when I that's when I know I need to get back on the pillow and start meditating or or something like that, or like feed, nourish myself spiritually in some kind of way. And I'm curious if you have some an analog to that.
Joseph Stalteri 1:06:43
You know what I mean? A lot of that, I think, really is just social too. Because I think that we, even me, we are sort of taught to I want to do social right too. Right means authentic to me and blah, blah, blah, like exactly how I want to be annoying. I'll be annoying I'll be annoying if I want to upset people. If I want to be nice, I want to, you know what I mean? So, like, I do have, I want to have there. So sometimes somebody asks you a question and you're just like, I don't know, how many times somebody like, Hi, how are you? And I want to be like, I'm shit. But they're just like, yeah, good. How are you? Like, I don't know. And there's like, the fuck, did I say that? But we do a lot of things just to kind of, like, keep a social, you know, ball getting thrown back and forth kind of thing. Like, we're, you know, just okay, I said the right thing. You said the right thing. Okay, done. Let me do that. But, um, I'll say, I don't lie. Like, very often, like, I'm gonna say, Don't lie. Because, like, everybody lies, but like, I don't, the truth is so much more interesting. It's upsetting, it's real. And I was a really bad liar as a kid. My sister's a nine and, you know, she's quiet, but she's the one that would lie to my parents. Well, my parents, I would just, I would just tell them the truth. Like, honestly, I'm going to do this. Like, this is what I'm doing. I don't know. Yeah, I just, you know, and I like telling people I don't really the thing is, I don't actually relish in hurting people's feelings at all, but I also think that, like in my mind and my reactive type mind, the truth, whatever it be upsetting or not, is always something that everyone's gonna want. And if I'm telling you the truth, if I'm being really real with you. It's like, well, it's actually caring if I'm not telling you the truth, it's because I don't care enough to get into it with you. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. Whereas I think for some people, it's actually the opposite. You know what I mean? No, maybe not. I don't know where I was going with that. But anyway, the point is, I'm, you know, yeah, if I'm, I just don't lie a lot. I don't, yeah,
Josh Lavine 1:08:48
do you have any inner signals like that make you like you're out, or something like that, and something happens, or you notice yourself feeling a certain way, and you're like, Oh, I'm, I'm not on my I'm not in my center, you know, or like, I'm thinking of the virtue of the four, which is equanimity, you know, and your relationship with that. Or what makes you notice I
Joseph Stalteri 1:09:11
need to come back to yourself, What? Or, you know, that's the
Josh Lavine 1:09:16
right framing as because I'm coming from an attachment type perspective. It's something opposite for you. You know,
Joseph Stalteri 1:09:23
there are times, okay, sweetie, yes, she's intrusive. She's a six. Okay, what was I gonna say? I don't know. I think there are times where I get reactive about things, and I feel this really intense. I Okay, if there are situations where I'm even with people that I care about, and I feel this sort of like detachment, this extreme, almost sudden, like, I don't know you, I don't why am I here like this? Feeling of I know if it's somebody that I like, actually love and care about, it'll, it'll, I have to, I know it'll pass. Because when I actually do love people, it's I keep them forever, but it is. That's when I know I'm just like, okay, that's I don't that's not healthy. That's not the healthy me. That's how I react to a lot of things. But if it's somebody that I really care about, I don't want to feel that way, and so I might just, I don't know, separate myself for a few minutes, or something like that. But when I was younger, I didn't really know how to deal with that feeling, so I would just be when I don't know. I still kind of do this. If I'm at like, a family function, sometimes I just get up and, like, go outside. I just can't be in there. Yeah, again, I get and I can't and then I have to, like, I like, I only have a very small bandwidth for things like that, so sometimes I can't even go back in. Like, I just have to leave. But yeah, I've learned that the best thing for me to do is just to separate myself, do something that makes me feel like me again, whatever it might be, like, talk to one of my friends, or listen to some music, and then kind of like, go back. Does that kind of answer your question?
Josh Lavine 1:11:03
It does, yeah, yeah, yeah. One other thing in the image idea like the question is something like, how are you moment to moment, navigating the desire to be seen a particular way. And what I mean is like from so for me, in a in a given social situation, I'm often aware of wanting want I was as a three I'm wanting to present myself in some kind of light that is attractive to the other person. And I'm curious about your analog for that, because it feels like it. Here's my language for it. I'm curious if you, if you resonate with it. It's like, for me as a three there's an outside in kind of thing going on where it's like, I'm seeing myself from the other person's eyes, but the idea of what is true for you, and that being your compass. It's like, it's almost like the sense of or and your your reflex to tell the truth and not to lie. It's like there's some way that if I'm seeing myself and presenting myself as congruent with whatever my inner state is, then that's the way that I want to that I'm wanting to be seen, whether or not it's attracted to the person or not.
Joseph Stalteri 1:12:22
Yes, correct something like that. If the person is someone that I like personally, then I would like that congruent thing to be attractive to them. Otherwise, I don't care
Josh Lavine 1:12:38
and and if you do like the person? How much like stretch do you have in terms of shifting your image or like your three way like adapting? Yeah.
Joseph Stalteri 1:12:57
The thing is, like, I'm a really specific person, but I'm also, like, fairly extroverted and dynamic, and I do have a sense of humor, and I have actually a lot of interest, so I don't think I have a big stretch, but I do think that if it's somebody that I do like, I probably like them, because we have some kind of connection already. So whatever that is, I can center myself in that area for them, and, you know, maybe not give them all of the other stuff up front, because that's kind of impossible anyway, right? I don't want to make it sound like I'm saying I have different versions of myself. It's still very much is me and the same me that I would show to somebody else. But it's like, I don't know, like, right now we're talking about the Enneagram I'm giving you that, that part of me, but this is the same Enneagram me that I would give to anybody else, not really stretching, you know? And, you know, sometimes I do stretch a little bit. Sometimes you just have to, but it makes me feel like, ill, gross, yeah. And then yeah, I have to leave. I have to go away, get out of the space, and then feel shame, even though what I did probably made people like me more. It feels disgusting.
Josh Lavine 1:14:12
I see, right? Yeah. I feel like we'll probably come to a close soon. But I'm thinking I have one other question about the group, and are you aware of the level of fascination and fear that you evoke in the community? Is that true? Like, well, no, it's
Joseph Stalteri 1:14:36
just not too strong
Josh Lavine 1:14:37
of a word. It's more like, it's like fascination and the sense of like people are, or at least my sense of of it. And this is, I don't think it's projection. It's more like just I sense. It's I sense a sense of people noticing your sharp, pokey disdainfulness, and are drawn to it. And. Fascinated by it and want to get close to it, but also the closer they're afraid of getting poked by it, in a sense and right? And because you occupy a position of authority, even though you don't necessarily embody it, and kind of dance around the communal space as that there's, you know, you are one of the leaders of the group, right? And so, and yeah, so when, when people's eyes are upon you, then they are, yeah, fascinated and kind of like scared a little bit or something like that, you know, yeah, that's
Joseph Stalteri 1:15:31
interesting. No, I have intimidated. MIT, yeah, yeah, no, I'm no, i to be, I think, to be honest, I people give David and ebekah a little bit more attention, and maybe it's because they're nicer, maybe it's because they're straight, I don't know. I have no clue, but I just, I just assumed that I was, like, the least favorite, the three, because no one, I don't know, no one. I mean, I'm not doing I guess it's part of why I wanted to do this interview, too. Because I'm like, You know what? My face isn't really out there as much as that, because they're on the podcast, right, right? I just do something where I'm like, you know, no, no, opening up a little, no, I honestly have no clue how people see me or what they think of me. That's the honest truth. I I've thought about it before, but I think my, yeah, my honest thought was that I was just like, I just don't think, I just assume that people like David and America better. I mean, I think, I think people love David, he's a nine, like, it's really hard not to love David, you know, but, yeah, just kind of, I was like, I don't know, people don't hate me. I'm gay, I'm for or sorry, they people. I don't think they hate me. I just think that maybe they're not as interested because yeah, I know. I have no idea. Yeah, I wonder that
Josh Lavine 1:16:45
is interesting. I wonder if that's just, I wonder if that's your projection too, just as a, maybe as a withdrawn for, yeah, right, because if I were if as a social three, if I'm leading Dark Arts Academy and some kind of position of authority in a Facebook group I'm certainly aware of, at least it's in my consciousness. How am I being perceived right now? Like, what's the group's vibe towards me?
Joseph Stalteri 1:17:12
Yeah, it's, I mean, it is, but it's not, I don't know. Yeah, it's
Josh Lavine 1:17:16
like a, it's almost like a one foot in, one foot out thing, or, like, a reluctance to engage with the with the group as a from a place of, like, This is my place, or something like that. It's that contained, social yeah thing or something, I
Joseph Stalteri 1:17:33
think, you know, sometimes I'm afraid of, I don't put this. I always remember this moment I was sat as at a restaurant. I was alone. I was sitting at a bar. It's like last winter, and the I've been in there a few times, and the the bartender was really nice and started chatting with me. And I was like, Oh, this is Fauci I like to chat. Like, sure, let's let's go. And then he said one thing that made me think he was disgusting. And at that point on, I was like, okay, but like, I had to finish the conversation. But I remember thinking, Okay, how long did that one last? It was maybe, like, five minutes of chatting with him, maybe less. And he said it was that he was he was recommending we were talking about shows. He heard me talking about shows on the phone with my friend, and asked me if I was if I was a screenwriter. And I was like, No. And then he's like, You know what you need to watch. And he recommended a show on Netflix that I thought was like, complete and utter trash. And like, was this really nice? And was like, started talking about it, and I was like, ah, right there. So this is what happens. I'm afraid for the most part, that I will get into something with someone and then have that feeling and be disgusted and disappointed, and then I have to cut off, and I can't, because, well, I'm the leader, and I don't actually want people to think I'm terrible. So I A lot of times, just like, avoid any interaction with someone until I've either they've just caught me on a good day, or I feel really certain that I won't feel that disgust so quickly. Yes, that I understand that that makes me sound worse. That's just like, hey guys, I don't talk to you because I'm assuming your shit. I mean, it's I don't I it's not but it's not personal. I just feel like this about everything. I feel like this about the things I like. You know what? I mean, it's just average, just the way I see
Josh Lavine 1:19:22
life. Well, to me, this is just, this is what it means to be a frustration type in the heart center. It's, it's like, the expectation of being disappointed, and it's, and it's not personal. And the sense of, like, when that waiter was talking about that show that you thought was trash, and really recommending it, and, like, doubling down, then, yeah, that that sense of like this person's inner compass that directs his tastes is so departed from, what? From quality or from, yeah, I guess I'll use the word depth, maybe because I associate that word with four you know, it's like this person. I. No longer has the I don't trust this person's capacity to relate with me in a way that will actually nourish me. And
Joseph Stalteri 1:20:05
I'm embarrassed that I, for even five minutes thought the opposite, and now I'm and now I'm speaking to them. I'm giving them access to me, and I shouldn't even be doing that,
Josh Lavine 1:20:19
man. I think the four one stem right there is, it just adds an extra kick. Oh yeah, yeah, because I imagine, like, a four nine stem would be a little bit more forgiving or, or more like, less severe. Just severe. Yeah, severe. The cutoff is very severe. It seems like, yeah, it's very, like, once it, once it breaks, it's just, it's done, yeah,
Joseph Stalteri 1:20:45
because one, you know, like, you use the word at some point in this call about, like, contamination. And I'm like, that's, yeah, it's very one ish. And that's true, like, everything, it's, everything's a contaminant, a poison. And I'm constantly trying to, you know, so it's, that's, that's a very one ish thing too, is that, yeah, when that the gut boundary gets crossed, like, no, wrong. This goes over here. This goes over here. I don't like it said. I don't even say the word wrong is difficult because it sounds moralizing, but it's more just like, like a body sense of like, no or
Josh Lavine 1:21:16
yeah, yes. One other question in this space. I remember when I was watching the Dark Arts Academy, the one that you did with Gore Vidal is how you pronounce his name, I think. And I was, I was, it was the first one that I had seen where you were like, I love this guy. Like, oh yeah, you know what I mean. And I was, I was so fascinated by that, that you were drawn to, you know, because he was, he, he has a lot of your qualities of disdain. And was just, you know, with precision and with a certain wit, was just being really a, you know, acerbic and dismissive of lots of different things. And you were just like, oh, wow, this guy,
Joseph Stalteri 1:21:56
yeah, yeah, yeah, that's rare. Yeah, most of the DA people we do I'm repulsed by. Or, again, it's just kind of a I'll start off hating. There are a couple where I've started up in like, a hate person, hates person, and then they're slowly like, you know what? Yeah, they've impressed me. And like, I don't think I hate them anymore. It's just, it's just an automatic, I know people get up in arms about the word hate. I'm not talking about, like, really damaging hate, like homophobia and like violence. I'm just talking about this kind of, yeah, we use the disdain is a good word that we kind of started to use. I think that really captures it. It's really just this, like, no, yeah, yeah.
Josh Lavine 1:22:36
And the way you're responding to Gore Vidal, it's like there was something, some inner quality of him that his, his inner compass that was directing him to be disdainful of this or that. Thing was resonating with yours. In a sense, it was like, oh I, yeah. That was my sense of it anyway,
Joseph Stalteri 1:22:55
yeah, for sure. Yeah.
Josh Lavine 1:22:59
Well, cool. Cool. How are you feeling right now? And how has this been for
Joseph Stalteri 1:23:04
you? You know, it's hard. It's this is hard talking. It's interesting, because I can sit here and talk shit about any type that I want, including for but when you're talking about yourself, it is you almost like, draw a blank, you know what I mean? Like, sometimes you're asking about four stuff. I mean, you can even keep this in because, like, you're asking me about stuff that I know. And I'm like, but I can't like you just you're not designed to see yourself. I'm like, I'm, you know what I mean? And then like, like, when we get off this call, I'll be like, Oh, why didn't I say that? Or, like, this is the better. I don't know pattern, but it's weird. When somebody asks you about one of your own patterns, you almost go blank or something, because your ego is like, I don't like, you're watching me. I'm being recorded. I have to say something really raw and vulnerable about something that's actually, like, really gross, but I don't know if you know what I mean. Like, I can I? How can I frame this? And then you're like, Oh, is that even authentic? And so on. It's really hard. This is why you need other people to type you you know, somebody who's doesn't care, isn't invested in you emotionally, who just, you know, can watch and observe, but yeah, I'm gonna watch his back and be like, Oh my god, I sounded like crap, or I didn't say anything good about four or I don't know, you know, and think later, all the things I could have said that would have made more sense, because I just think it's really hard to talk about about your own type, you know, is
Josh Lavine 1:24:31
there anything that comes up for you about being the subject of not just like the inner experience of searching for the answers to questions, But just the experience of being questioned about yourself, that you are the object of fascination in this situation.
Joseph Stalteri 1:24:49
It's weird. I'm trying to think of how to answer that question. What comes up? It's, I think. I think my instinct is to hide, to just not want to do the withdrawn things be like, No, you can't have any of this, or you can't come too close to this, or the fours are very guarded. I mean, right? People who know them and are close to them. Know when things really matter, and it is actually, if I'm getting emotional, it's definitely going to be real. And it's very obvious, because I'm not a steely person, but most people are not getting close to me, so, but in an interview like this, I have to be real in some way, but that's hard because I'm because I'm social, so I'm not just looking at you, I'm looking at like everybody who might be watching this. And you know, that's difficult because you're like, I don't know which I don't know who my audience is, and I don't know if I will, I don't know if I care, but I also do. I don't know, yeah, what
Josh Lavine 1:25:57
is that pressure in this context, to be, to be real like for you could just in the same way that when you did the typing interviews with that Dark Arts Academy video where you typed yourself and yeah, you submitted those videos to, I forget what it was. CTI, or I forget what it was, yeah.
Joseph Stalteri 1:26:15
CT, yeah, yeah. You
Josh Lavine 1:26:17
You were doing it use you were making fun of yourself for submitting a video and not wanting to do it. But kind of like, okay, I had to participate. Okay, I fucking get right, but yeah, but trying to make the the person who wrote the questions realize writing those questions and stuff like that, you know what I mean? Like, yeah, I'm curious if there's any been anything like that here for you, or if, and I won't be offended if that's
Joseph Stalteri 1:26:41
true, oh yeah. I mean, sure, yeah, yeah. And again, it's not personal. It's just Yeah, yeah. I know. It's just the there is this idea that, like, if anybody tries to get close to me or understand me, that they're not getting it, and they're an idiot, right? And I know that that's not true, which is why I'm here, yeah, but I'm but then I have to get past all of that so that I can actually answer the question for you, because it's not just about me, but yeah, like you said, I'm the leader of this community. I don't want to. I want to make sure that what I'm saying about myself and about four is going to be correct and illuminating and not make me look like I don't know something else I don't care. Like, even if someone's like, oh, he seems like a six, I don't care. But I do want, if somebody's watching this, I want them to learn something about four, because that's what we're that's the whole that's what we're that's the whole That's our whole business, right? So I'm like trying to make sure that I'm saying the right thing, but I probably didn't. So
Josh Lavine 1:27:31
yeah, well, thanks for doing this for me. This is really, this is really fun and fascinating, and thanks for letting me kind of try to get in there. Yeah, I got
Joseph Stalteri 1:27:43
a little bit in there. I think I hope, yeah, I gotta watch it again. Cool. Okay,
Josh Lavine 1:27:49
all right, man, well, thanks a lot.
Joseph Stalteri 1:27:51
Okay, thank you. You.
