Sam Leuenberger 0:00
Yeah, the heart space is this, like, the ocean is terrifying, like it open and open water. And so I feel, whenever I start to encounter actual feelings that I'm my first feeling was not at home, like, I'm like, it's like being like a land it's like being a land creature, and then like getting dumped out of a boat. You're like, I'm gonna die here.
Josh Lavine 0:28
Welcome to another episode of what it's like to be you. I'm Josh Lavine, your host. Today, I am sitting with a type seven named Sam Lewin burger, who I felt really privileged to have this conversation with because it was really fresh on the heels of a really powerful two experiences that he had that were tectonic shifts in his inner world. One is that he realized that he had been mistyped as a four and he's actually seven, and the other, which happened about a week later, is a experience he had in a therapy class. Sam is a student in a therapy graduate program learning how to be a mental health counselor, and he had a very powerful experience that kind of rocked his world. It's really a special and rare thing in my experience to see a seven be in a state of this kind of prolonged vulnerability and self reckoning. And I think Sam was really courageous to volunteer himself for the experience of this conversation, which is actually itself, a thing that is interesting to unpack, given the context of his type seven structure, which we kind of get into in the conversation itself. Something else about this conversation, from a theory point of view, that it was interesting, is that Sam's typing, his full typing is a seven with a six wing, 712, tri fix. And so type seven being the type that gives itself the most permission, the in a sense, the freest type and types six, one and two, all three super ego types, which are the most internally constricted in certain ways. And so I found that a really interesting polarity, which we explored at length in the later half of the episode. One thing I'd like to mention is that when Sam volunteered himself for this interview, he sent me an email that was a series of thoughts about his reckoning with himself as a seven, a bunch of fresh insights. And he said, among other things, that life was taking him back to feeling school, and that he used to think that he was a person really well versed in his emotional life, but actually he realized that he wasn't. He was just thinking about his emotions instead of really feeling them in the style of classic seven, his writing was really it really struck me, and is the reason that I selected him for this interview. And I asked him if he would be willing to make it available so that you can read it, and he did so you can find it in the show notes. I do recommend that you go and read it. It's quite remarkable. He's a great facility with language and, yeah, really beautiful writer, so please check that out. Sam actually is a writer by trade, and in the show notes, you'll also find a couple of links to other pieces of writing of his, an essay and a collection of poems. All right, without further ado, here is my friend, Sam. Welcome everyone to another interview, and the second one around for me and you here. Sequel, yeah. Sequel, yeah. Second, take this time with the camera actually on
Sam Leuenberger 3:34
Zach too, Josh,
Josh Lavine 3:36
this is yeah. So yeah. Sometimes I've learned, well, whatever, um, yeah, sometimes it's, I've learned that it's I've learned that it's important to push the record button. It's one of my it's one of my learnings over the course of doing these interviews. So, um, we had gotten like, 15 minutes into this interview, and we talked about your origin story, and we talked about, in terms of the Enneagram, we talked about you mistyping is a four, and now learning you're seven, and that's being that's really fresh for you. And we talked, we were about to start talking about this therapy session that you had that was really profound, or actually more of a, yes, it was a therapy session, but you're, you're trained to be therapist, and you had this experience where you were playing in front of the class, the part of a client, and something very deep happened for you. Yeah, let's, let's get there eventually. I just want to set this up so, so your full typing is, as you've recently learned, self pro social, seven with six. Wing 712, tri fix. Yeah, yeah, and you, and that was a surprise, because you originally thought you were four, so I know you just did this 15 minutes book. But can you, can you take us through it again? So yes, Enneagram, origin story, and, yeah, where? You're out with it now? Yeah,
Sam Leuenberger 5:01
sure. So I'll start with mistyping as a four. So kind of couple things were connected to that. One thing that we were talking about that I feel like is a helpful place to start is the object relations piece of the Enneagram and how the Enneagram universe group, big hormone podcast, I think, was really impactful for a lot of people, and hearing that object relations call, that series of calls with Courtney, and sort of understanding your type at a deeper level. So for a couple of years, I had thought that I was a four, I think in 2018 was when I first got introduced the Enneagram, like a lot of people, red road back to you really like felt hooked strongly into the type four description, identified with that read lots of other stuff too, pretty voraciously, just kind of and listening to podcast stuff. I was working a blue collar job, like I worked for this guy who ran a lawn care landscaping business, and so I would listen to podcasts pretty much ad nauseum when I was on machines, just because it helped me stay sane, because I'm a people person, and so like, I would just be like, I can't figure out what I'm going to do next with my life, but at least I'm sort of feeding my brain, which should have been a head type kind of clue. I'm going to just kind of keep, like, the hamster wheel of my brain spinning with Enneagram stuff, because I couldn't get enough of it. So what happened is I kept confirming, confirmation bias. I guess that I was a four listening to all this material. When I listened to that object relations call what was really interesting is identified really strongly with all of the frustration types. There are a lot of reasons for that, but I remember hearing the stuff for seven, where it's just like, okay, not getting the nurturing function, the stuff with the one, not getting the supporting function met, where it's just sort of like, this is wrong, like, I like, I know. Or it's just like, this sense of like, I wasn't exactly shown the like, there's just this almost gut sense of knowing how things should be that I identified very strongly with that I thought, okay, four line to one, and then stuff with the four identified with really strongly, because it was this sense of alienation, or just feeling like you don't know how to like be a person like I remember, like, going through difficult periods of my life, and it's funny that I discovered the Enneagram at like, a point in my story where, like, I just felt like a loser, like my life just was not clicking the way that I had hoped that it would creatively. My life had flopped relationally, same thing, and I just felt pretty isolated. And so I was like, Yep, this is, this is straight up foreignness. Like, what else could it be? And so, like, all of that was sort of leading me further and deeper, deeper down this four path. Um, I remember just like, having conversation with people just being like, I just don't get it. Like, I don't get like, it was this feeling I don't get, like, how you're supposed to, like, like, my like, I think there's that whole front it's like, fours aren't functional. Like, I felt like I was like, Well, I'm not damn functional. I can't, like, figure out what I want to do for my work, like creatively, like I know what I want to do, and that puts my feet on the floor, that helps me get out of bed every morning. But like so much of my life just found, like, this profound uncertainty. And so that to me, I was like, okay, everything was just like for stuff. So I had gotten into another relationship, and it was the first relationship I had been in for six years, and it was somebody that I could connect to about the Enneagram, okay, I was connecting to this person. It was weird, because when you're in a relationship with somebody, I feel like, at least for me, I'm seeing parts of myself that I don't see when it's me as a single person, yeah, where it's like, a part of it is an on stage Ness, where I'm like, and I think that's where type structure gets amplified, at least for me, because I'm somebody who has a tendency to want to perform, to want to like, entertain and support, and so like, I'm gonna show up that way in relationship. And so I would hear myself starting to talk about stuff like the Enneagram, and this is something I've been aware of. And maybe you can even tell now I start talking kind of fast and sort of an energy and a momentum to it, and I would always catch myself like, Okay, gotta slow down, especially if there are people who don't know what the Enneagram is. It's sort of like, almost like, all of a sudden I'm like, this freak cartoon who's like, talking about, like, just like, gobbly gook. And so that, like, was the key. I was like, Oh, maybe I have a seven fix once I started learning about the tri fix stuff, but never occurred to me that that could have been a core, that could have been my type. So that was sort of a rambling version. I can kind of continue with it. I'm not sure if there's something that you've heard so far that you want to ping off of,
Josh Lavine 9:38
yeah, let's see. So I want to actually set one more thing up here for this interview, that is the way, the way that it, it came about. So, so you reached out to me, and you said, and you sent me a an audition tape. That was you sent me a 20 minute audition tape which I watched, which I. Listening to your
Sam Leuenberger 10:00
type seven interview with the crown. That's right, that's I was making big zd, Josh, and I came to this computer, I was like, I gotta do this.
Josh Lavine 10:08
Yeah. So, so you sent me that, and then actually, later you followed up, and we're like, whoa, whoa, whoa, I just sent you this crazy thing. You don't even have to watch it. Don't worry about it. Then later you sent me this long email that you wrote in preparation for your typing debrief session with David Gray, in which you were really reflecting on your experience of being a seven and all these new insights which were fresh for you, literally as of, like, within the last month. Yeah, right. Yeah, and, and the email was, frankly, it was extraordinary. It was an amazing my experience. I think you're a gorgeous writer, and you captured certain things about the seven in really beautiful language. And so part of what I want to do in this interview is just kind of quote yourself back to you, and then unpack some of the stuff that you wrote. So given this thing that you just said, one of the things that I wanted to get into was you said that at therapy, this is you at therapy. I'm good at generating a huge amount of mental energy to hover over pain. You can hear in my voice all of a sudden, I'm an auctioneer babbling at 1.5x speed. Don't slow down, dude, you might feel something.
Unknown Speaker 11:30
Yeah,
Josh Lavine 11:32
yeah. And I'll say one other thing, actually, so you're gonna find this quote. I love this. How are you feeling? I can Yap all day across the surface of that question. If you're not a skilled listener, you might not even notice that I didn't talk about feelings. I blasted over them. My head is a jet ski. The heart is an ocean. Yeah, what's happening to you right now. Listen, hearing those words,
Sam Leuenberger 12:09
yeah, the heart space is this, like the ocean is terrifying, like open and open water. And so I feel, whenever I start to encounter actual feelings that I'm my first feeling was not at home, like, I'm like, it's like being like a land it's like being a land creature, and then like getting dumped out of a boat. You're like, I'm gonna die here. And so there's this feeling in my body, and this is something I've become aware of more recently, where it feels like it feels sort of like quivery, like you're just sort of like, oh, there's just this, like it feels like you're turning into goo, like I'm just like, am I gonna hold together? There's something that is on, like the word undone keeps coming up to me, there's something about the heart space that makes me feel undone,
Josh Lavine 13:10
yeah, and well, that's a beautiful word too, and certainly belongs to the heart space. I love this word quivery too. That was my experience of like I could feel the energy like, and I'm a pretty absorptive from an energy point of view person, but that was what I was experiencing from you in that moment. So sense of quivering, yeah, yeah. And we were talking a little bit ago about how there's a difference between the way that you can get excited by an experience of like talking about talking about feelings, talking about pain, experiencing pain, consuming sad music, sad movies, sad songs, and the experience of actually being with your own pain or or finding An exposed nerve in you that's really sensitive, and having that get touched. Oh, yeah, and let's see, why don't we? Why don't we just do this? You had a recent experience in a in that therapy session. Let's go there can so you're training to be a mental health counselor, sure, and you had an experience recently in a class that I think is really illustrative, so why don't you set the scene? Yeah,
Sam Leuenberger 14:28
I will. Thanks. Um, so I got my typing back on a Saturday July. It was the last Saturday in July. I was leaving on Sunday for a week long counseling intensive. I'm training to be a clinical mental health counselor at this this class was going to be a counseling techniques class. So what that meant it was going to be experiential learning. So we what we did is that we would review two core counseling techniques each day, and then we would see them demonstrated by professors with a volunteer from the class. If someone would play the part of the client, the professors would obviously be the counselor. So during that week, I had a chance to be the client in front of half of the class. It was during a small group exercise, and, you know, kind of fun. Also did some one on one stuff with the person who was my my counselor for the week. I love being the client. I'm good at it, it's fun. It's like, I said, like, pain is edible energy. It's sort of like you get to just get all of this attention from one person, and you get to, like, I guess it is that jet ski kind of thing, which I thought was like, I love to connect that way with people. And I always thought that was me connecting on a heart level.
Josh Lavine 15:37
Yo. So,
Sam Leuenberger 15:38
so what happened, which is still a shock. Um, so what happened is, the Thursday of that week, there were going to be two counseling techniques that I was really interested in being the client. For one was cognitive behavioral therapy, which is like, obviously, like, kind of looking at, sort of your thoughts, um, automatic thoughts, and treating those thoughts and saying, okay, is this true? What are the core beliefs? The other was Gestalt Therapy, which is a body based method of basically looking at the here, here and now, what's happening for you here now in the moment, using the body as an on ramp to what's happening inside. I was really interested in both, but I was just like had this momentum in me, also like that. That morning, I can remember I had so much energy in my body. I could not sit still, because I wanted to be the client so bad. And what it was that carried me. There were a couple different things, but one of the things was I just wanted to just, I think I used this the last time we were talking, it was just like I wanted to get blasted by whatever was coming toward me, I could feel like something was coming toward me. I'd been, like, started therapy myself, like, in April, and so, like, I was starting to be aware of, like, what feelings actually were. And it was sort of like, I kind of want the test, and I also like this feeling it's like a drug. It's like a drug. You're like, it's like dissolving psychological boundaries with people or with yourself is a drug. And so, like, it's almost like basically having the opportunity to be like, okay, like we're going, like, you're gonna just, you're gonna do this drug and like, in a room of 20 people, and there's gonna be all the stage energy, and so they're gonna carry me on there. So the vulnerability part, I don't care. I mean being vulnerable and that and that way in front of 20 people. I just wanted to make sure I did it with integrity, that I wasn't performing outward. Okay, so, okay, so I got what happened is, this, is this on track? I know this is great, yeah, yeah. So what happened is, I wanted to, I got up in front of the class for the first session, and it was the demonstration of cognitive behavioral therapy, CBT, and it's basically head tennis, like you're, you're just kind of batting a ball back and forth. It's probably the type of therapy that's least invasive. It's considered it's and so there's a way that, as a head type, I was, I was expecting, and this is what the dynamic became, to sort of have this fun back and forth with a counselor, kind of push a little bit. I had reputation for being a difficult client for reason at my program, which I sort of like reveled in. I was like, hell yeah, it's just fun. It's fun to do that
Josh Lavine 18:18
real quick. Actually, that's a what does it mean for you to be difficult client? How is that word? How is that being used in the context of your program? So
Sam Leuenberger 18:26
in my program, you know, it's so funny because like, I'm like, I'm just being honest and real. Like, I'm not going to just, like, placate the counselor and be like, Yeah, so like, let me just sort of like, Go at your speed or not bring up stuff that, um, doesn't fit neatly into the technique or method that you want to have use that could be some of it. It's also just sort of, like pushing back on the therapist, like, I don't That's what friction. I'm all about friction in these kind of conversations. I'm like, it's more interesting if there's a little bit of, like, a fight, you know?
Josh Lavine 18:58
Yeah, I see. Okay, so and generating that friction is exciting to you, and is what makes the tennis coach fun.
Sam Leuenberger 19:03
Oh yeah. Oh yeah, yeah. And especially this person was kind of more passive, very, like, grounded, calm, like, 919, win, one, stuff. Okay, that's what it felt like. Um. And so I want to just get in the ring with both of these people and just go, like, go all the way and so, yeah. So I don't know why I got labeled as a difficult client, but people would say that it was, it was also like, kind of like, entertaining. I guess people were like, Oh, this person's just sort of like, there's energy to what they're doing, all right. So the point is, is that first session happened and there was some vulnerability that came up. But like, you can see in the first 10 minutes of this conversation, there's a way I can talk about difficult things without going into them. And you could feel a shift in a resonance where, like, oh, wait, I'm like, can drop down into actual feelings. And that's the scary. Stuff, and I like, touch the surface of that in the seat in the cognitive behavioral therapy session. But I didn't have to go all the way down. Yeah, yeah. I sweated a little bit. I emoted. People were hooked and interested. There was some adrenaline in the room, but I hadn't really gone off. I hadn't really lost my shit yet.
Josh Lavine 20:19
I love your just awareness of the eyes on you and the way that your energy is impacting the room and the performative feedback loop of it all, yeah, as a as a set, like, that's part of the drug, you know, and that's part of the that's part of the fun. It seems like of you. That's why you volunteer for the experience.
Sam Leuenberger 20:38
Yeah, pretty much, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, like, I said, like, it's almost like being carbonated in your body. Like, I remember just sitting there that I was just like, it's gonna happen. Like, I hate sitting for long periods of time, but I was just like, I was sitting in the room, and I remember looking catty corner across the room with this guy that I was friends with. I was like, as long as long as Matthew doesn't want to volunteer to be the client. I'm freaking gonna all be all over this. Like, I already had this line in my head. I was like, I'm gonna go, yep, yep, yep, as soon as they say volunteer. I was like, I was ready. Like, I'm already, like, stage crafting this, right? Yeah. And so I'm ready to just jump in. And so I get so I get the moment. I jump up and people like, whoa, damn. He really wants to do this. So I get up. First Session happened, second session, man, entirely different. Within like two minutes, I'm just like, done, you know, like I said, like, I'm just exposed. Like,
Josh Lavine 21:37
what happened?
Sam Leuenberger 21:40
So one of the things like, so basically, one of the things Gestalt is doing right off the bat is like, sort of like, repeating the things that you say, or looking at body language. And I'm not good at hiding stuff, and so somebody's gonna play body language games with me, and they're like, Oh, you're doing this or that. There's a way that that disarms me. Okay? Because you're not playing you're playing a different game. You're not talking about what I said. You're looking at the way that I am, way that I'm being, way that I'm shutting up, yeah, yeah. And so you're taking away my defense mechanism, my my skills, you're taking up. They're taking away all of my tools. That's what, disarming. I don't have any weapons. Okay, so now I'm just a body and a heart. I'm freaking up in front of 20 people, and what happens is this person, like, basically identifies some polarities and things that I'm talking about, of feeling like she was talking to me about loneliness,
and she said to me, Oh, she
said to me, where's the loneliness in your body? And I just said,
Unknown Speaker 22:57
everywhere, everywhere. Wow.
Sam Leuenberger 23:01
And it's like, there's like, when your soul talks like you don't know, you're like, Who's that? Because I don't see him that much
Josh Lavine 23:14
taking your carbonation metaphor, which I love for a second. It's like, CBT allows you to keep the engine that generates the bubbles going, and so there's fizz always happening, and the more Fizz, the better. But Gestalt therapy, it's almost like the bubbles, they roast the surface, they popped, and what was left was just flat water, and you had to meet that.
Sam Leuenberger 23:37
Yeah, man. So I just said, like, when you're hearing it's like, it's interesting. Therapy is creative in the sense that you're support, you don't know what's going to happen. Yeah, you're super it's like, I don't know what I think till I say it, I think flinder O'Connor had says that. Had said that that's true in therapy. And so when I said, you know, where's the loneliness, that's, that's, that's the heart speaking too. And so it's very immediately just like, like, like, got emotional. Um, yeah. And so what that kind of led further down to was kind of looking at a polarity, and what they mean by polarity. And Gestalt therapy, about getting too technical here is basically just saying, okay, there are two parts of you that that both belong, but one of the parts is, one is you are pushing away that you don't want to identify with, sure. All right, so there's a part of me that got up in front of 20 people that was going to be fun. It's gonna be great, you know, it's gonna be a show. I'm gonna, it's gonna, I'm gonna show a little vulnerability. Yeah, that's fine. People are gonna love it. It's incident. People are gonna be hooked by it. Okay, there's gonna be something about it. People will like me more if I do this. I've done it before, it I can do it again. Not a big deal. Okay, there's a girl that was in the class. I was like, Yeah, okay, yeah, she's gonna be into this. She's in the front row. I'm just gonna, you know, it's gonna be perfect. All right. Oh. Ability as an attraction strategy.
Josh Lavine 25:01
I was just gonna mention that, yeah, you talk about it or not. Can I give you a quote that you're this? I just want to read something back to you that yeah, about this. Okay. You said, Okay. The only problem with surrendering yourself to psychological analysis in front of 20 people is that the part of you that likes getting psychologically nude in front of 20 people, thinks it's stronger than the part of you that's actually going to be nude in front of 20 people, someone, some would say it takes guts to get that vulnerable. I don't agree. Getting vulnerable is the easy part. This is going to sound gross, but who cares? Vulnerability is an attraction strategy.
Unknown Speaker 25:47
Yeah, dude,
Josh Lavine 25:48
that's that is good shit, right there. That's good. That's really good. All right. So, so what does it mean, like, so there was a girl in the room. Vulnerability is an attraction strategy. Vulnerable. Vulnerability as a display.
Unknown Speaker 26:04
Oh, yeah, yeah.
Sam Leuenberger 26:08
It's power. It's a power. It's power because, I mean, you can get in front of people. The thing about acting is, like, and being on stage is it's a sort of, there's a disc, there's a safe distance between you and the other person, and there's almost like you're almost objectifying yourself, in a way. It's like, I am this object that you are a that you're observing, okay? And so I'm up there, and there's a safety. It's not real relationship vulnerability. It's different, because it's still like, okay, like, there's gonna be something you're gonna see about me. I'm also going, Okay, I gotta compensate for what I don't have. And so I'm like, I know one thing I can do freaking better than 90% of dudes out there, is get up there and just bleed in front of people in a way that's somewhat like Pat like, people are gonna, people, people are gonna, can be able to consume it. Okay? It's like, when I perform on stage, it's almost like, it's almost like, Bermuda power. I don't know what my whole overlay is, but like, that's, that's a possibility. It's just interesting me, because basically, when I go on stage, I just it works. I'm gonna be like, oh, like, I'm really good. But like, I do, like, I like to play, like, the like character roles, like the side roles, and just get all the glory. And it usually just works. Okay, so point is, yeah, I get in front of these. I get in front of the class. I'm always, usually aware in front of an audience of like, one person that I really want to like me, like this person. It's almost like the other stuff is just whatever. There's white noise so they're just, it's just a blur. But like, just one person. I remember one time I got on stage, like, it was like, march right before the pandemic hit. I was like, super I always, like, fall in love with girls during like, theater of like, toy stuff. This has been my whole life. Okay? It's like, double stage, you know? It's like, oh so fun. I'm getting I'm jumping all over the place. But we're talking
Josh Lavine 27:53
about vulnerabilities and attraction strategy, all right, we're talking about the performance of vulnerability, and maybe just bringing it back to that therapy session. Bring
Sam Leuenberger 28:03
it back into therapy session. I was going the field. Thank you. Yeah, so in that moment, what happened is I wasn't in control anymore in the Gestalt session, which blows my heart, and that's right, and that's what I'm kind of caring and still processing and learning about is, like, when you get totally busted open at like, the core of who you are. I mean, that damages your composure, not just, like, for like, you know, a couple hours, it's like, it's like, I don't know where this is going for
Josh Lavine 28:37
me. Yes, it's shattering, and the pieces don't fit back together like they used to. Yeah, exactly.
Sam Leuenberger 28:41
And so it's very unsettling. And she's like, okay, like, I thought that, like, I was gonna get out kind of with my skin. I'm still like, it on, but like, I didn't, like, I kind of left people went with me. Like, you're in a room full of empathetic people, like people were rung out the rest of the day, but it's like, I didn't know how to put myself back together, especially the rest of that week, and I'm still trying to figure out, like, Okay, how do I like, this is real. This is a part of who I am. And I've been like, not wanting to fully know it, yeah. For a long time,
Josh Lavine 29:23
I love that statement. I'm not wanting to fall fully know it, yeah. For a long time. Can you just be really specific? Like, yeah, you began the Gestalt session, and then from and then, just, like, the beats, like, what? Yeah, maybe there's five beats or something like that, like, what? What happened? Yeah,
Sam Leuenberger 29:44
so, so, um, persons looking at body language, body language leads to the person saying, um, there's a feeling of loneliness, a feeling of frustration, where you live, not connecting, like your friends, everybody that you live around being married, where's the loneliness in your body? Me, the loneliness is everywhere. All right, let's look at the part of you that feels vulnerable. Look at the polarities. One polarity is I feel like the person is performing. The other polarity is this 12 year old boy, okay, this insecurity, this like, and it's like, oh, like when it went and so, like, let identifying that. And it's like, Oh, I feel like that person all of the time, like that 12 year old is in me all of the time. And so it's that terrifying feeling as like a 31 almost 32 year old man, where you're like, I'm still a boy somewhere, yeah? And it's like, humiliating, because you're like, I should have dealt with this, yeah? And then you're dealing freaking, dealing with it in front of 20 people, and you're just like,
Josh Lavine 30:48
Oh, yeah. And there was also a chair right
Sam Leuenberger 30:53
to an empty chair exercise. There you go. So what the empty chair is, it's like, kind of the what you think of when you think of like in therapy, okay, you're going to talk to your inner child, and the inner child, and the inner child is going to be in this empty chair, and you're going to be sitting opposite them, and you're gonna have to talk to them. Yeah, it sucks. It is embarrassing. I'm freaking talking to this chair. I don't want to, I don't want to see my 12 year olds like, I look like, this is the joke line I always use. I look like a baby giraffe when I was 12 with braces. It's just like, I don't want to be identified with that kid who asked out some girl as a cheerleader in sixth grade after calling for the busses and getting rejected, and be like, I don't really have a boyfriend right now. I'm like, bullshit. Like, you just dated some dude as a football player, like, a week after I asked you out. You know, it's like, still that wound where it's like, oh, I'm this. I'm like, the fugly 12 year old and like, that's who I carry around, like, that insecurity, and so it's like, Okay, I like, if that's still in there, and like, that part of me also belongs. Like, I literally, dude had to do, like, what do you want to say to this person? And it's like, I was like, didn't even want to associate with him. I didn't want to have that conversation. I was pissed. I would made it clear. I was like, kind of tossing some cheers around. It was like, Jerry Springer with me, like, my soul, you know, I'm just like, okay, like, I'm like, having a Jerry Springer thing with, like, the inner family, and so I just, like, had to give this, like, this 12 year old, like, wanted a hug. I'm like, What is this like? I'm like, right now, I'm pushing because I'm like, trying to, like, like, kind of create safety by calling this, like Oprah or something, but like, the reality, like, this was real. Like, I'm like, Oh no, I'm I'm dying. Like, I need this. I need this from you, and I don't get it from you all the time, because you're you want me. You think that you have to be entertaining and like supportive, empathetic or sensitive for people to love you or want you in their life, and that's the condition, and if you can't perform at that level, then you can bail on relationship with yourself, with other people, and so like that laid bare, having to accept that part of myself was really important, really hard, and it's something I'm still learning and having to do because it's like, doesn't want to penetrate.
Josh Lavine 33:23
Yeah, so let's, that's where I want to go. Like, how to What do you mean it doesn't want to penetrate?
Sam Leuenberger 33:30
And I mean being awake versus being asleep, I think, like, there's something about the way the human ego is constructed with the defense mechanism where it's just sort of like, don't let shit in like, state. Like, don't, like, don't it doesn't want you to get awake, almost, I don't know, well,
Josh Lavine 33:46
well, what I'm referring to more is, like we talked before about, well, actually, this is a good time to read a different thing for what you wrote. This is we were talking before about mistyping is a four and and how the the defense mechanism, the seven was so unconscious you didn't really realize it, all right, until now, when it's being really exposed, and particularly in the processing of this experience you just had. Yeah, yeah. Here's, here's here's what you wrote. You said, the resilience of this defense mechanism was so deeply unconscious I mistyped as a four I'm an introspective person. I thought I write, I read. I'm not consciously afraid of being unhappy or dissatisfied. I'm not afraid of sad books or sad movies or sad music. I'm a connoisseur of pain. I there's the rub connoisseur. This is pain on Broadway, a glitzy, big budget live action cartoon, pain as pleasure, pain as experience, pain as edible energy, which is which is beautifully written, and this experience of having to meet your inner 12 year old boy. Okay, that you've kind of suppressed out of consciousness and moved the other pole of being the entertainer kind of guy, so you don't have to deal with this guy, this meeting the 12 year old boy in you. Was pain as pain.
Unknown Speaker 35:16
Oh,
Sam Leuenberger 35:18
yeah. Oh absolutely. That's a great way of putting
Josh Lavine 35:22
it, yes, and and so, and the so I what I'm sensing is that the defense mechanism, which is to, even as you're talking about it, move into 1.5x speed and be really good at making mental associations and drawing metaphors and bringing in images of like Oprah Jerry Springer and stuff like that, that all in real time is allowing you to rev the engine And then get back on the jet ski.
Speaker 1 35:58
Yeah. Well, huh,
Sam Leuenberger 36:05
we had our intro call, somebody have a breakdown in your podcast. What
Josh Lavine 36:11
was the, what was the, the emotional tone of when you just said, what was that? It's just sort of this feeling of like,
Sam Leuenberger 36:19
where do you want? Do you want me to live there? That's what it feels like. I'm like, that feeling. It's like, yeah, defense, yeah. I'm defending myself. I'm like, do you want me to live there? Like, there's no air, there's no oxygen. It's the ocean. Yeah, breathe. I can't. Yeah, I can do it for like, time, like, short amount of time, you know, go down, you know, it's gonna take a lifetime, not whatever it is, you know, but there is that it's so difficult to I was aware of feeling real feelings in meditation and prayer within the last two years. But aside from that, aside from, like, breakdowns from specific life events, was really good at pushing stuff away. Yeah, like, it's that weird thing, like, when you, like meditate, where it's like laughter and like crying, like, I just that was like a spiritual discovery. I'm not saying like God only exists when I have a feeling or sensation, but like, to me, it was a very it was this weird way where, like, I was unclothed before some sort of my, my, my essential self. I feel like that's what prayer is, that's what meditation is,
Josh Lavine 37:47
yeah, yeah,
um, yeah, beautifully said. You know, just in this moment, I think what I'm really struck by is
Unknown Speaker 37:58
how
Josh Lavine 38:01
confirmation bias functions so powerfully because you know you so this. It's now August 21 2022 and you discovered the Enneagram in 2018 and the idea of thinking you were for for that long and reading description, a description of type four, and consuming that material, and feeling really pulled by that material, and, and, and, well, consuming it, yeah, you know, in the style of seven, it's edible in that sense. And, and now kind of being slapped by the realization of like, oh, whoa, like this, this other thing was really going on this whole time. Here's another thing you wrote. You said, Life is sending me back to feelings school. It's kind of embarrassing. I thought I knew how to feel. Not only that, I thought feelings were my specialty. And then in italics, thought, which just that, and it's, I can't read the whole quote because it's too long, but in context, you were talking about being a type in the thinking triad, you know. So, so, yeah, is there a question at the end of that I
Sam Leuenberger 39:34
can just respond to part of it? Yeah, yeah,
Josh Lavine 39:36
let's do that. Yeah, go ahead.
Sam Leuenberger 39:39
I mean, what the where the conflict comes in is in being like, because the headspace is able to do language well. You can like, conceptualize like, feelings and experience you're like. Here's the metaphor that like in. Encapsulates like that captures what I've been feeling. Or here is this way with somebody on a feelings level, because I'm telling you about
Josh Lavine 40:10
this quotes, yeah, this feeling, yeah, whereas
Sam Leuenberger 40:13
real feeling freaks me out, yeah, there we go. Because it's like, there's not language that's like, for me, I don't know how to get there with words. People ask me how you feel, and I'm like, I can't I'm not gonna answer that question. You know, unconsciously, I just start talking like I learned that through therapy. Though I didn't even know I was doing that. I always thought, oh yeah, let me just tell you what's really going on. I'm so authentic,
Josh Lavine 40:52
man, it is amazing. Yeah, this authenticity, vulnerability, as per as performance thing is like, is so clear in the way you're describing it, you know? And then the dropping into a feeling, which is really a pre verbal kind of experience, you know,
Unknown Speaker 41:11
yeah, dude,
Sam Leuenberger 41:13
pre verbals, right? Yeah, yeah, that's, that's what I'm processing, right? I'm like, what does this look like to actually show up in this way appropriately in the world, like in relationship with feeling, or like even knowing when feelings are true? Holy crap, because it's so confusing. This is what the whole guiding function thing with a headspace seven has, like, this sort of way of, like, it heads, the head Center has a way of losing, like, touching with the guiding function, yes, sort of like, knowing what's true. It's almost like the narrative, like new impressions are replacing the old ones constantly, right? And so that is true of, I have a feeling, okay, let's say I meet a girl, I have this feeling of, wow, it's just like, so great to talk to. Or like, I just feel like, like, this person is, like, really great. Or there's some sort of, let's just say, Spark, well, I go away from that, right? And then, you know, let's say, don't see that person interact with them. Or I, you know, I send them a message. I don't hear from them. New narrative comes up. New impression, frustration goes, Okay, you know, it's just, just whatever. This sucks. This sucks. This person doesn't care whatever I'm gonna move away from this. Move on, not feel it or create, okay, I have to try something harder, do better, all right. But like real feeling, like actually trusting, a real feeling, whoa. Like holding, like, actually believing and holding on to like, a real feeling that's something like I'm trying to learn, like I want to I want to learn, I guess. Yeah, but I'm almost shocked that people actually feel stuff like, What's it feel like to be a from the heart set? I'm like, Damn, what are you guys doing?
Speaker 1 43:02
We you know,
Sam Leuenberger 43:05
like, I'm like, how the hell, like, I hear from real fours. I'm like, How are you not dead? I talked, I talked to real four on this. I'm like, Look, there's a buoyancy to my despair when I spend time around the real four, if, like, they're staying in my place. I'm like, You need to go home now, because they live there, I bounce from there. That's the fun part. That's four is funness, for for energy as funness, the Enneagram is like a pro the process Enneagram, it's like, oh, four. I'm gonna go to four. I'm gonna go to four. You don't go to four, I don't know, man, it's like, what are you doing? What are you doing down there guys? Oh, I'm out. I'm always kind of pulling out. I'm like, I'm like, wait, but there's hope. And they're like, no, like, they're entrenched. And it's always shocking to me.
Josh Lavine 44:02
So this is what's so fun and amazing about talking to you right now, is that this is so fresh for you. Yeah, you know, having just realized it, you know, you're like, you're still sitting in the in the what the the post, the post slap shock,
Sam Leuenberger 44:22
you know,
Josh Lavine 44:25
and what is your what's your sense right now in your process of what will help you,
Sam Leuenberger 44:40
in terms of,
Josh Lavine 44:42
well, let me get really specific. So that feeling of, like, when I asked you that question, and you're like, and then you were like, Yeah, it's like, Do you are you asking me to live there? Like, I can I feel like I can't breathe. That feeling, what? What's your sense of. What will help you expand your window of tolerance for that feeling, to be able to drop in there and breathe a little bit with it.
Sam Leuenberger 45:15
I think just, I don't know what I mean, just kind of, first off, like, doing therapy is like, good lab. But the problem is, is, like, it's a lab, right? I leave the lab and I'm like, I'm really afraid of, like, I guess relationship is the only real way. And then, like, also being alone and allowing yourself to slow down enough outside of just exclusive scheduled windows to feel stuff, I have to really make space for that in my life, where it's like, not pushing over something, or like, not racing to the next thing to learn. Like, I'm really good at fish. I'm really efficient with my time. I'm really bad at just being, and it's almost like feeling and being for me go together in a certain way, because I'm not pushing. And so I think allowing myself to be, be of myself, without having to do something or to the thing is, like, even, like, spirituality can become performative. I'm just sort of like, all right, like, like, even, like, reaching for some sort of like, like, like, spiritual climax. You know, it's like, like, like, like, spirit, like, sex and spirituality being so interlinked, even like, like counseling, like, there's a very sort of like sexual like, when you're dissolving psychological boundaries, it's like a very sexual kind of energy in its own way. And so almost, I said, being undone. It's almost like, for me, What's the scariest part about is, like, when is it appropriate to allow yourself to be undone? And the thing is, is, I will rationalize all of these times of when it's why I can't right now,
Josh Lavine 47:11
that Yeah, and that is always, yeah, yeah, yeah,
Sam Leuenberger 47:16
yeah. I mean, it's just like, the thing is, when you're like, when you're in a relationship, and you're you're seeing somebody, like, dating somebody, like, dating somebody. It's not just like friends who you see like, once a week or once every two weeks. That's when the real shit show we have to actually start showing up like, you can't, like, be in a long term relationship and be and that's why the longest relationship I've ever been in my life was 13 months, and there was a lot of long distance. Because if you're in a long term relationship, you actually have to just be okay with just being in the same room as somebody. I never really learned how to do that, and I think people can sense that, but I'm just sort of like, it's like, you either are gone, like you need to go home, or we're doing this
Josh Lavine 47:57
fascinating, okay, let's, let's, like, go here. That's really interesting to me. Are you willing to
Sam Leuenberger 48:07
Oh, absolutely, yeah. Oh absolutely.
Josh Lavine 48:09
So specifically with relationships, and this is party. I don't have the quote ready, but you were in your in your thing you sent to me talking about friendships, is like short form figure skating, it's like 200 it's like two minutes and 40 seconds. You whip out the trips, the tricks, and then you strike a pose, and then you're off the ice. Yeah, for whatever you know, the hour that you're meeting a person for coffee or something like that. But in a relationship, there you are, yeah, you know. And it's not, it's much, much longer than 240 Yeah, so this, this idea of just being with a person in the same room, what is hard about that? What's threatening about that, what's what's anxiety provoking about that, what's
Sam Leuenberger 48:59
hard about it? Yeah, man, everything to me, it feels reacted to oneness, like it feels like, on a cellular level, like your body doesn't know how to relax, let go. That's what, to me, feels like, like being people talk about being on. You can't be on all the time in like, a long term relationship, because it's so stressful. And it's if it's so stressful being on, then that's why I need the person to go, because I'm putting the expectation on me that to be in relationship, to be loved, means I have to be on. If I'm not on, you don't want me, and I don't want me. I don't want me. If I'm not on, that's, that's the freaking worst part, man, that's the lonely part where you're like, I'm so alone because I keep doing that to myself. Yeah, yeah.
Josh Lavine 49:59
I have to say one thing that is just amazing about speaking with you and reading your writing and stuff is just your facility with language. About all this stuff is so, so good and and yet that seems like a pretty entrenched problem. Yeah,
Sam Leuenberger 50:21
yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like, it's like, the brighter the light, the darker the shadow, right?
Josh Lavine 50:26
Sure, yeah.
Sam Leuenberger 50:29
Robert Bly, whoever that is, yeah,
Josh Lavine 50:30
that's a beautiful that's a good quote, yeah. But I, my point is, is that you know your this is part of the type structure, is that your ability to explain the thing isn't making the thing go away, but it is a very well developed skill that you've created for yourself because you've done all this thinking about feeling,
Sam Leuenberger 50:53
yeah, see, this is the terrifying space, Josh, where it becomes like, Oh, this is why Robin Williams hangs himself. You know, I'm not Robin Williams, but it's just sort of like that kind of shit. Okay. Yeah,
Josh Lavine 51:02
yeah. Chrome was talking about that too. Like, just the delaying of the pain that the delay, the delay, the delay.
Sam Leuenberger 51:08
Yeah, I mean, that's what you see, like, that's what it's a defense mechanism. Like, yeah, you hone this skill, but it's the thing that isolates you from yourself. And it's actually,
Josh Lavine 51:16
I want to read one other thing you wrote here, just, I found this. I found this amazing. This well here. So type seven is the archetype of a generative mind. Energetically. Seven is a spray. Sosx, what that looks like in terms of object relations is type seven is constantly spraying new narrative, new impressions, new reactions over the object EG, romance, job, whatever. Each new impression replaces the mood, tone and atmosphere between subject and object. Just take that in for a second. This is partly what seven what gives seven that ungrounded feeling. It's also what disables sevens contact with the guiding function in average health. Sevens, inner compass is always spinning. Go this way, no, that way. Her, her, no, wait, not her, her. Attached to frustration. Sevens, top layer says this object is not satisfying. Not only is this object not satisfying, but there's also something fundamentally wrong with the object that is not satisfying. And if I don't make a change right now, I'll be trapped in a state of maddening deprivation. I
Speaker 1 52:20
What? What are you doing? Josh, gosh, yeah, yeah, that hurts.
Josh Lavine 52:47
What was amazing to me, I've never heard this language before, but just the idea of, like, I'm always super imposing a new idea, image, mood or something, on top of the object that I'm relating to, whatever that is, and that constant, like cognitive keeping that thing fresh through this act of superimposition, is what actually prevents me from being in contact with the object and with myself in a deeper way. Yeah,
Sam Leuenberger 53:23
it's uh, it's terrifying, yeah. Because, yeah, yeah. It's just like you're never in a relationship with the same person, because you're always your opinion of them is always shifting or changing. It's just like there's this one quote that I've attached to from this book by this writer named Richard Rohr. It's I insist on being worthy and deserving, and I demand the same from others too. That's the whole thing to me. I'm insisting as a ground rule for just relating period that that we're That, to me, it comes down to that two center with a relationship where it's just like, What are you bringing? What are you bringing to the relationship, right? I'm bringing all of this, and so it's constantly, are you bringing something like, enough, like to, like, keep this alive, because if we're not playing at the highest level, then what are we doing? And that's why it's I can be a good therapist, a good counselor, because all you do professionally is somebody leaves the room. You play at the highest level with them. You play the next person, right? It's refreshing. It's that way. It's fine, it's safe, easy, but in real relationship like to treat yourself or somebody else that way is totally unsustainable. So I don't know what to do with that, because it's like, I'm doing work on myself, but it's work, you know? It's still like, I don't know, eventually, maybe. I'll just wear myself out, get old and just sort of be better. Be better be be a human being. And I'm getting better at it. I'm getting better at it. The last relationship I was in, I was at least able to address conflict a little bit better than I ever had before. Because, I mean, talk about the positive outlook thing I thought that I was doing, like emotional realness, back to four stuff. I was like, Oh yeah, I'm real. Look at this. No, yeah, no. I was backlogging stuff. I wouldn't bring it up. I go, okay, they're not playing up to the they're not playing they're not bringing from that to space what I want. They're not like, maybe saying words to me, like, stupid love language, stuff, words of affirmation. It's not stupid, because it means a lot to me. Like, I'm a words person, and so like, if I'm not getting that, I'm going, Okay, you're not that seven stuff. You're not giving me what I need, but not saying to the person that I need this, or that this dynamic is off, just sort of going, okay, something's wrong with me, that I need that, or I don't want to bring that up, because it's going to make me seem needy. And so not dealing with it, not dealing with it, not dealing with it, not dealing with it, till it becomes a deal breaker, you know, a an apocalyptic dysfunction. And so then it's like, oh yeah, this is a huge problem. And it's been a problem the whole relationship, and I can't do this anymore. And they're like, what this is? This is a total mind F, you know that happened to me a couple times in my 20s, and I was like, Is this I'm like, why is like to me? I would go like, why is this a shock to you? Because this has been happening the whole time, but I wasn't bringing this up to the surface. I was keeping it to myself until stuff blew up. Now I was able to do that better in the last relationship that I was in. But, you know, still, obviously didn't work
Josh Lavine 56:45
out. Yeah, um, this is a slightly different topic, but it's going to relate to this. And I think this, I think this, I don't want to lose the thread of this relationship conversation, because I think it's really fascinating, and sure feels like it wants
Sam Leuenberger 57:05
to. I'm never using now, because anybody hears this, but this dude, you might
Josh Lavine 57:10
be surprised, but yeah, so, because this is real vulnerability, this isn't performative. What's happening now 7b seven being so you seven with a six wing and set and and 712 being your tri fix. So you have six, one and two in your typing structure, three super ego types contrasted with seven. And that is, that is very interesting to me. I mean, just as a seven, seven being the type that, in a sense, gives themselves the most inward permission to do whatever, and then 612, the types that give themselves the least. And I am curious about that dynamic in you. And I know that you were raised in a Your dad is a pastor, right? Yeah, that's right, yeah, that's right. And you have religion is important to you, right? Your Christianity is important to
Sam Leuenberger 58:13
you, yeah? So I continue to go to a church, yeah? I go to church, yeah,
Josh Lavine 58:18
yeah, and yeah. So can you just talk about the how you experience that inner dynamic playing out and and I wonder about its application in this relationship space?
Speaker 1 58:32
Oh, boy, yeah. So
Sam Leuenberger 58:38
it's a war, man, it's an inner war. It's this feeling, like, with, like, what the thing is that it's one and two gang up on seven for me a lot of the time. Yeah, sure thing. I'm like, I got two against one. You guys suck. Like, I'm about to flip the book off the camera, because that's how I feel. You know, the seven is like, you suck. I hate you. Like, like, let me do what I want. Like, why do I have to care? I'm going to do what I want to do and screw it up, screw it all and Deal, deal with it. But the problem is, is I got this soft ass conscience. Who is going to come, come, come catch up with me eventually and go, alright, you done bad. You're done wrong. You got to fix it. You got a you shouldn't have done that. You need to change this. You need to not do that. You need to knee, knee, whatever. Just be, you know, it sucks. People will meet me that like, Oh, you're just a good like, a good boy, good kid. I hate that. I'm like you. I'm gonna punch you in the face. I'm gonna punch you in the throat. I hate, hate, hate it. Like, like, it's disgusting to me. Like, I'm like, you don't even know who I am, but, like, I show up in the world, especially if I'm, like, in a professional setting. I'm like, just being nice. I work at a freaking elementary school. Like, yeah, I'm not gonna like, be a dick to people. Like, I'm not gonna be like, Oh yeah, let me do something. I do fun seven stuff, like, Mr. Rogers style stuff, but it's like, even, like, even, like, doing this interview. Like, I'm like, okay, like, how much do I take the lid off? Because, like, I'm with my friends. I say, wherever the hell I want. You know, I don't care. I'm the one in my family who, like, I love to swear it's fun. I don't, I don't care. I have no compunction about that. I'm like, what say it's fun? There's a musicality to it? Yeah, I'm pissed talking about this, but I'm like, I get sick. I'm like, do not put a lid on this. This is what it means to be a person. Like, if I can't do this, it's like, people say, Well, you can't, you can't really joke about death. Joke serious. Death is serious. Well, if I can't joke about death, I don't even want to die. It's the same thing. It's the same freaking thing here. Yeah. Like, if I can't, like, this is why I do a lot of the writing stuff, I just can go all out and do crazy shit. And I'm like, I'm gonna just do anything, anywhere I want to go. Nobody can tell me what to what's moral, or fence me in or do something. I'm like, that's not what art is. I don't do that. I go. I don't make stuff for children. I make stuff that looks like it's made for children that's freaking not. People look at my esthetic. They're like, what is this? But it's just like, I piss me off too. I'm like, just because it doesn't look like this is freaking I don't know something like, I've got friends who write straight up just darkness. And I'm like, just because it doesn't look like that doesn't mean there's not death. There's not depth to it, too. Like, that pisses me off too. Like, the seven stuff of two. I'm like, like, no, there's depth in the stuff that I make. Don't tell me that there's not, but I don't even know what I'm talking about right now, Josh, because you asked about the super ego, well,
Josh Lavine 1:01:34
I'm tuning into defensive. I'm getting defensive. No, actually. Well, that's not my experience. My experience is that you are tapping into a kind of, well an anger that is the result of,
Sam Leuenberger 1:01:48
it's for myself,
Josh Lavine 1:01:50
being trapped in this inner polarity. Speaking of polarity is the Gestalt thing. It's like you have this super ego restriction, inner restriction that causes you to, in a sense, run into a guilt leash about any form if you, if you, if you go too far into the realm of, like, absolute freedom of self expression,
Sam Leuenberger 1:02:14
externally, right? Yeah, world, yeah, yeah, that
Josh Lavine 1:02:17
you also have this really strong core party, the seven part that is, like, no, like, basically, I want to, you know, fuck everyone, like, I want to just, I'm gonna just spew it out, yeah? But the that's, that's a really rich, alive inner conflict, and I get the anger, I mean, I can see why that's really frustrating,
Sam Leuenberger 1:02:37
yeah? So it's weird, because there's this real terror of letting go, and that could be related to, even to instinctual stacking, like, SPF,
Josh Lavine 1:02:47
yeah, that makes sense. But, uh,
Sam Leuenberger 1:02:51
for instance, like, I had this real phobia of drinking. Like my uncle was an alcoholic, but I never, I never had a beer in my life. I was like, 23 or four. It wasn't like, for like, some rule, I was not like. It wasn't like people, like, I went to like, a school where, like, people wouldn't drink on principle, like, some Baptist thing. Hell no. I know was not a moral thing. Like, my people, my family, drink, or whatever. That's fine. It was not the thing. I just had this sense of, like, I have this fear sometimes, of like, what if I like, what if I drink? I'm becoming an alcoholic. You know, it's almost like that, like, it's like the one and two, just like policing the seven. It's like, up, what for that one? Yes, yeah. Because he's gonna go all the way, once you get a taste, he's just gonna, he's just gonna go bananas. And so what I do, the way that I let get my rocks off, is I, it's like, creatively, I am drugs. That's how I it's that Dali quote. That's what I do. That's my I let myself off the leash there. But there is a way that, like, my life, spso wise, is like, very structure, even, like, in terms of, like, how I like, maintain touch with, like, creativity, I'm like, Oh no, no. Don't mess with like, the system, because this is what's keeping me on the planet.
Josh Lavine 1:03:59
Meaning, like, there's an appropriate time and place where you unleash yourself, and there's like,
Sam Leuenberger 1:04:04
I mean, the way that I built my life, like we were talking about off, you know, before we started recording whatever, like, like doing theater stuff, that was a big part of my creative life up there being 22 years old. Like, I would write plays too, and I would perform. I would get to direct them or act in them. Like in college, I love that. Love connecting with people making that stuff happen. I finished college, and I was like, I really have to keep making stuff, because that's what makes me feel alive and like, what I'm interested in about being a person, but don't really want to move to a major city. I don't know that. Like, I'm gonna be able to keep doing the theater stuff. It's gonna suck if I'm gonna do in the community theater stuff with Bucha, who's not fair. But like, that was the general feeling. So I was like, Okay, I have to, like, what can I do by myself? I have to become a one man band. And so I just hunker down into, okay, what do I like to read? And I realized that I started I liked reading contemporary fiction when I was 22 and so I was like, I'm gonna write the kind of thing that I like to read. And so that. What I did, I hunkered down into that lifestyle. I, like, it was a conversion. I gave my life to that, and that freaking destroyed me at 27 or so. And that's didn't work.
Josh Lavine 1:05:17
I don't get it. Yeah,
Sam Leuenberger 1:05:18
so I mean, like I, I gave my life to, like, get, like, get, getting success creatively, in terms of, like, writing, like, I like to did a lot of fiction writing or whatever. And I was like, okay, eventually I'm gonna break through, because I always have before. That's the story. Um, so if I just work hard enough at this and I send a bunch of stuff out, then eventually I'm gonna get through. Well, it just didn't happen. It didn't happen. And I was like, what I had to reconcile with at that moment was, is, like I had nothing. What I gave my life to didn't work. I was alone. I had chosen something that isolated myself habitually by like, you know, I get up in the morning, whenever I get up at like, 444, 45 or five, and I do an hour and a half, two hours whatever of writing I like, just plug in, do that six days a week, whatever it's gonna be. I do that really consistently. That is remarkable. Wow. Okay, yeah, go on just what I do. It's like, exciting to me to get up. I get to do that every day. But, like, my relationship with creativity really changed after I couldn't, like, we talked about seven being generative. I couldn't generate stuff because I didn't. I was so lost and broken as a person that I didn't want to be, I didn't want to be here, like I was like, there's no point. I just was done. I was done. It was like, everything that had worked for me no longer worked. I was alone. I had failed creatively. My relationships had failed, and I didn't know how to get out of it. It was like, I dug this hole. It's like, that seven thing I like, dug this hole. I'm like, there's gonna be gold down here. There's gonna be gold. Six years later, there's just a deep well, there's no goddamn gold down here.
Josh Lavine 1:07:00
And that was four or five years ago,
Sam Leuenberger 1:07:03
yeah. And it was like fall of 20, I guess 717 where, like that happened? The bottom fell out, yeah. And
Josh Lavine 1:07:14
then what happened?
Sam Leuenberger 1:07:17
Yeah, yeah. So, I mean, the real turning point was I couldn't I couldn't write, couldn't write, and I was like, but I was like, I gotta make stuff. I gotta make stuff. It was like, that seven defense. I was like, I can't stop moving. And so it was weird, because what happened is I got pulled into, like, basically, I was like, the way that I'm seeing myself is not the way that God sees me. But I didn't know that the whole time. Like, it's like, so just whatever you wanna say, like, whether you believe in God or not, like, it's like, on some sort of, like, deep level, like, the way that I'm seeing my whole being was adversarial. Like there was a way that, like, I was just not cutting it. I was not able to be. My first introduction to being, to spirituality was when I couldn't do I had to be, and what that looked like, in a demonstrable way for me, was through this practice of making this series of poems out of this children's book that I found out, found in a library in the church that my dad was a pastor at at the time. Okay, I found this book from 1951 called Questions children ask. And I remember picking this book up, like, a year before I did anything with it, and finding it very strange, everything I hate about evangelicalism and that I struggle with about Christianity, and I was like, this is perfect. It's disgusting. Leave It to Beaver, like, literally, straight up, like, like, like, weird stuff and but that was like I had this weird kind of chemistry with it, Spark. And so I took this, I started cutting this book up, because I was and I was receiving these words from the book in a way where I wasn't creating this. I was a part of a process where I was, I was a little c that was contributing or participating in capital C, creativity. That was real. That was I like, that was real relationship with, with being capital B, being it was like, sure, like, I am just showing up here and complete total faith. I have nothing to bring. I have nothing that I'm bringing. I'm purely just receiving what. There's nothing I have that I've not received from heaven, and that is like, sort of like words that I live by before I start to work every day, where it's just like, there's a way that like that that's what to create something is, you're participating in a process. I'm not. It's not, you know, it's about, it's me as a person. Yes, Sam is a lens. He's a specific lens. It's not like, I'm like, just like, I'm just whatever. It's like, No, I have a specific thing that I can do. But like, what's the good that's coming through is it's almost like, what's like, it's a com. It's just like, it's traveling through me. I'm not in control of it. It's a surrendering. And so that, to me, is what spirituality is. And that's was a huge that's. Saved my life. Amazing. That saved my life because, and that changed my whole relationship with creativity. Because, up to that point, it was like, I have to make it. I have to make it. The story is that I make it. I didn't make it like my whole first half of my life, I made it and then it stopped. And it was like, even we're talking about, it's we're talking about personality. It's like, I even look at stuff in my life, like, like, like, high school, like, that was like, This is disgusting. Like, high school does stuff, like in the yearbook. It's like, best personality, yeah, well, jokes on you do best personality. Guess what I wanted, like that defense mechanism, or whatever that is, that stuff is what buried me. It's like when you get broken in that way, humbled, you're like, Yeah, best person freaking ality. Like, it's just me in this room with, like, with, with God, and I am on my knees.
I'm done
because it's not work. What I've been how I've been living. It had stopped working. I had a new way of living, or I wasn't gonna keep living.
Josh Lavine 1:11:13
I'm I'm fascinated by a couple things about it. First of all, just your your level of activation and energy in telling the story is interesting to me, that
Sam Leuenberger 1:11:27
we got a psychopath preacher.
Josh Lavine 1:11:33
No, there's just the clearly, a lot of life force in that, in that story, and it I'm also fascinated from the point of view that I stories where people hit a kind of bottom and they're at the end of the rope, and then find something that helps them reconstitute their life in a way that has meaning in a different way. Yeah, that's always very fascinating to me, and what, what, what failed at in that moment where you said viewer, my understanding of your story is that you had been pushing to towards some end. And the end is what like success as a creative writer, or something like that. And probably my I was also hearing notes of like that loneliness theme is kind of underneath everything, in a sense, like what, what success meant was being well, all the things that success brings, whether that's true, people who believe in you, friends, women, maybe you know, like all that stuff, yeah, so really
Sam Leuenberger 1:12:41
love me now, yeah, yes, right. It's like it was, it was, it was the ones who are the special ones will find me now,
Josh Lavine 1:12:49
okay, yeah, there you go, yeah. And that failed, and, and so you had to meet yourself in a different way. And, and this creative projects allowed you to surrender part of your, I don't know, your ego, or your do your creative doing this, yeah, and move into a more kind of channeling space, or receiving space or something. Yeah,
Sam Leuenberger 1:13:12
totally. That's yeah, yeah.
Josh Lavine 1:13:17
I don't know how to place that in terms of 7126, and it really mattered me, but whatever that's that's a, it's a cool life moments, I mean, I'm sorry that you went through it, but also these moments where we break open and then have to refund ourselves are really powerful. Yeah,
Sam Leuenberger 1:13:35
yeah, man, I don't know it's interesting, because I had always framed that stuff from before place? Yeah, that's what's so interesting about that narrative. And I was thinking about trying to see that from seven space. And it's, it sort of,
Josh Lavine 1:13:50
here's, here's one crack at it, here's, like, the crack is, like, as a seven, I'm wanting you know how to fantasy, the things that will nourish me, yeah, the special people will find me. The women will love me, the whatever, and 612, doing, going about getting that fantasy in a way that is sanctioned by my super ego. It's it's through. It's through writing. It's through. It's through being a devout Christian, it's through being a whatever, like the structure of my life and the way that I'm going about it are appropriate.
Speaker 1 1:14:29
Yeah, yeah, dude.
Sam Leuenberger 1:14:34
David Gray also told me this is hilarious. He's not gonna mind if I say this, but he told me he said, he said, if you got married right now and had a baby, it would be a disaster. He said, You would be angry. It would be a terrible thing, because, like all my friends, that's how their lives have gone too. That's the name, yeah. And so he's like, he's like, he's like, that wouldn't work for you. And I'm just sort of laughed about it. And he was just like, it was connected to a bunch of other stuff. But it was just interesting to me, because it was like, Yeah. He just straight up told me that it's like. Uh, very freeing. But also, like, because I always that narrative as like, a solution to, like, my, uh, like, self, self sabotaging life, that it's like, how do I stop living in this way that's both painful and free? And I'm like, oh, eventually I'm just gonna, like, I'm gonna snap into the family narrative. I'm gonna get married and I'm gonna have a family. Oh, wow, no, it's that traditional, like, that's, that's freaking super ego stuff too. It's like people are like, I'm almost the only one that knows my life isn't gonna be conventional.
Josh Lavine 1:15:30
Wow, yeah.
Sam Leuenberger 1:15:31
Keep telling myself, Oh, it's gonna snap together. No, fucking not.
Josh Lavine 1:15:37
This is i This feels relevant to how or why it's difficult to be alone with a person in a room.
Sam Leuenberger 1:15:47
So yeah, tell me more,
Josh Lavine 1:15:50
because if well, how do I say this? Um,
it feels like there's it feels like there's this inner conflict in you that is just on the one hand, wanting to perform and be loved and meet expectations, and another to be free to do whatever you want, and the sense of like having to be on with a person is a, is a, is a showing to them, of the part of you that is that can be, that can perform and meet expectations and be lovable and stuff like that, and a hiding, I Think, of the part of you that wants to do what you want.
Unknown Speaker 1:17:11
Yeah, probably
Josh Lavine 1:17:15
so, yeah, I can see so I could see why like being alone in a room with a person, for, for example, a week, and you're just spending a few evenings together like you've already exhausted all your tricks and and you know you've, like, told all your stories and told all your jokes and stuff, and now you're just sitting on a couch next to this person, like, what Do you want to do now? I don't know. You know that that space of the I don't know.
Sam Leuenberger 1:17:55
Yeah, just got my whole life, man, that that little thing that's like, my whole that's like, the whole thing, I don't know what you just said, Yeah, I don't want that to be forever. So I'm just trying to figure out a different way
Josh Lavine 1:18:12
to live, and I'll say a slightly different way. It's almost like the super ego part of you is what you are willing to present as acceptable or lovable. It's the part of it's this. It's like, hey, look, this is the part of me that stays within certain lines. Oh, yeah, you know. But there's a lot of life force in this other direction, which was partly like the level of activation and an anger that you were expressing earlier when you were telling all those stories that hasn't found a full release valve yet and feels like internal I just do it creatively, but Right? Yeah, hasn't found a hasn't found a relational release valve. Hasn't found a release valve in the context of a a stable relationship, sure, where it's allowed to be there, you know, yes, energy is yeah,
Sam Leuenberger 1:19:06
yes, well, it's super damn complicated, because it's like, okay, do Am I even attracted to Christians? Mainly not. Last person I dated was not a Christian. Um, so that's its own stupid thing. I don't know what to do with that either. Yeah,
Josh Lavine 1:19:25
yeah. Well, how do you how are you feeling right now?
Sam Leuenberger 1:19:30
Yeah, I mean, I think this is a good conversation. I feel like we touched a lot of different pieces of this. Yeah, I don't know. I feel like I left it all out in the field, yeah,
Josh Lavine 1:19:42
you did somewhat. You really did. Yeah, you really did, yeah, and, and my experience of it was that it was, it was real, you know, it wasn't, it wasn't authenticity as performance. It was real.
Speaker 1 1:19:53
Okay, thanks, yeah, yeah. Well, I
Sam Leuenberger 1:19:57
really like talking to you, and I really appreciate. Appreciate you, and it's pretty crazy that I got to listen to your show and then get to be a part of this, because it's really an important part of my life. So that means a lot. It
Josh Lavine 1:20:07
means a lot to hear say that thank you for doing this, and really for being willing to go here, at where we went, and also just being willing to, especially having just exposed yourself in front of 20 people. Yeah, now kind of do the same thing again, you know, put yourself in the hot seat and just have this be, let this be part of your process. So, and I know everything is really fresh, and you're just figuring a lot of stuff out right now. And, yeah, I'll be curious to hear how things go. Yeah, thanks, Josh.
Sam Leuenberger 1:20:37
All right. Thank
Josh Lavine 1:20:38
you too, man. You
