Gray 0:00
If you see the three as I just want to be seen, and I just want you to see me, and I am terrified of the rejection that might occur, or the not being seen that might for me, it's rejection, but like, the not being seen that might occur, it's like, it's like, don't, don't do that. If you're, if you've got a three who's actually handing themselves over to you a little bit like, try to be open to them. I think many people because they're not in touch with the heart space, even when I am like, Okay, I'm I'm putting down the barriers, and you're seeing me. If they're not there with me there, it's like, i Ow. This was the exact thing I was afraid of.
Josh Lavine 0:41
Welcome to another episode of what it's like to be you, a show where I interview people about their experience as their Enneagram type. I am Josh Lavine, your host. Today, I am speaking with my friend grace. He tech. Grace typing is really close to mine. She's a social self. Pres three with a four wing. 368 tri fix. And just for comparison, mine is social self. Pres also through the four wing, 396, tri fix. This conversation happened a while ago on the heels of a weekend where gray and I actually got to meet each other in person. And so it's really interesting to explore our mutual reading each other. As social threes tend to be reading each other. And actually the word we use in this conversation is tracking other people. What that's like, tracking the vibe of a conversation, tracking where people are at emotionally. And we also explore something that was really precious to me, which is what the social three ultimately is really wanting and probably social three with a four wing, more specifically, but a quality of social intimacy that is really yummy in the heart center. And we gray and I both kind of vibed on this point that there's something going on in the heart center at a pre verbal level, that when people are locked in with each other in a particular way of relating, then it's just a kind of saturation with meaning and connectedness that is kind of rare. And so we talk about that, we talk about the grief that we're not saturated with that experience all the time. And gray also has a really beautiful point about what she calls like the purpose of three, and maybe the purpose of social three, particularly, which is seeing people accurately, seeing people accurately. This was a really wonderful conversation for me, from the point of view of just dropping into the heart center, and not, I think, contradicting the stereotype of social three as being, you know, prestige seeking, social climbing, having lots of polish and things like that, which can be true and which I've certainly experienced in my life, but getting under the hood of three and what it really means to well, what happens when threes really connect to their hearts and what they're really yearning for. So please welcome my friend gray. Welcome everyone to another interview, and let's just get into this. So I'm here with my new friend gray. See tech from a YouTube channel called augmented personality, which she runs, and how long have you been running? That? I
Gray 3:18
want to say about a year and a half, about a year and a half, right?
Josh Lavine 3:21
And it's it started, mostly focused with ops, right? Yeah,
Gray 3:25
objective personality, MBTI, there's a little bit of Enneagram there, but if you watch those videos, don't judge me too much. They are not up to date.
Josh Lavine 3:35
I am checking on that all right. So gray is an Enneagram three, and the full typing structure through the four wing social self pres 368, and so we're gonna get into what it's like to be gray. And I am so excited for you to be here. And also, it's really fun to meet you in person actually last weekend, yes, yeah, yes. And it's fun to know you a little bit now before we actually do this conversation. So first, yeah, how are you feeling right this second?
Gray 4:04
Oh, oh, the instant jitters of, there's a camera, like, even, like, we got started a little bit before, and it's like, the instant I was like, and I'm here and I'm on. I was like, God damn, it's so frustrating, because I do want to be real, and I want that, but that doesn't mean that my brain agrees with me that that's safe. And so it's very funny how quickly the hard wiring takes over, but I'm still really good underneath that, which is great. That's the goal, right, to be good underneath.
Josh Lavine 4:36
I loved that statement that your brain doesn't necessarily agree that it's safe. And we talked like, right before the camera was on, how, because we're both raised, we're both going to change when the camera goes on and and it's kind of happening. Do you
Gray 4:51
agree we're also both social? So there's also a sense, I feel like we're going to talk in a meta I have a feeling that we're going to meta talk a. Lot during this interview, of like, Oh, look at this thing we're doing. Oh, look at this. Almost like we're little, or watching little toys of ourselves from above. And it's like, Look at this. Look at this. Look at us. Do that. If I move it this way, it does this. And it just very over analytical of self, because the the constant image painting of three is it's it's image, but it's adaptive. So we're constantly trying to, like, oh, look, when you do this, you do this, and then I do this, and like, look at us adapt. It'll be this very that image painting is compulsive and UN it's almost unintentional. How much I'm doing it. I suspect you might feel the same. And as a result, there's that never ending like tweaking and adjusting and meta analysis, meta analyzing, and just all that yummy, delicious, crazy social stuff. Yeah.
Josh Lavine 5:50
Well, one thing that I find about that particular especially when I am speaking with someone who knows the Enneagram or is interested in personality in general, is that it feels like a form of safety or image relaxation, in a sense, to talk about the way that I'm showing up and the way that you are showing up and to the conversation about the conversation is a place that I feel comfortable, and also it feels like, in a certain way, is a, how do I put this? It's a different form of intimacy to have that conversation. Yeah, could be, you know, I
Gray 6:31
yeah, that way, yeah, I found, I find that really to be true, because if someone knows I'm an image type, or just that I have, like, an objective personality, I'm a decider, which means I'm anxious about shame, and so shame and judgment and people and so knowing that those two pieces exist in both systems, I'm always kind of sensitive to what what are they seeing? Are they seeing me? Am I being seen? What's going on? Is this right? Is it wrong? What's Am I being seen correctly? All of that is going on, if someone knows and actually has it in mind. When they're talking to me, I can kind of relax me, like, oh God, they know already they already know. They already know I'm weird here, I'm already naked, like it's, I'm already exposed, so I might as well give up the ghost. And I really like that ability to kind of, it's, it's still hard. It's like, I'm still presenting something, but I know that they they're seeing past it at least a little bit, which is, I would say, breath of fresh air. At least for me, it's like, Thank God to know what I'm like. Someone needs to know. Yeah,
Josh Lavine 7:33
I relate to that. And also, just to call something out, part of our conversation is probably going to be about or we're going to touch on this as a general theme is our typings are very similar, you and me, yeah. So I'm, I'm social self pres, like you, three with a four ring, like you and have three and six of my tri fix. The only difference is that you're so I'm 396, and you're 368, so the ordering, yes, yeah, is different. And you have eight instead of nine. So let's see, we're talking a lot about image, and that's a really important theme. Let's see where I want to go actually, first, let's, let's kind of pull back out and and I would love for you to just share what your Enneagram origin story is. And yeah, you can take us through even the whole thing with ops too. I mean, I'm curious how you landed on the Enneagram from the angle of other typing systems too. Yeah,
Gray 8:29
sure. So I've been interested in personality pretty much forever, um, like, to the point where I was combing through my mother's psych textbooks when I was like in middle school, from when she had been in college, because I was just kind of compelled to understand what was going on with the humans, which makes them sound like I see myself as something other than human, which is true and not true, in a sense, because I There's me and but I also know there's the image of me that is separate, and I'm trying to live up to that image, which isn't very human, and it's very perfect. So, you know, it's a very as I'm just kind of catching my own language as I'm talking, which is a big part of a practice I've learned from all the years of first MBTI and seeing like, oh, how am I doing this in this exact moment? And then in objective personality particular, there's a belief that you're doing your type every five seconds. And so if you can catch just a few moments of what you're doing, you can actually begin to see how you are creating your own nightmares over and over and over again, which from there actually, because objective personality has that belief that kind of like that kind of got me started walking up the mountain. And then once I saw that the Enneagram, or interpretation of Enneagram, was the exact same principle that you're doing your type structure compulsively to create your own nightmares, I was like, oh, okay, yes. And then there was something about Enneagram really striking at the heart of that there's an. Essence, quality that I want, not just a function of personality that I want, which is the objective personality lens that I'm for an idea I'm an ENTJ, and so I'm craving a feeling, thing that I feel as though I cannot have, but I'm existing in a state of doing things for others. It sounds very three ish, but the true thing that I want greater than just simply my own feelings and emotional experience is, in particular that which is valuable. And the lens of which I'm doing it through is social, which is that which is valuable for all. And that is like the fact that I believe in a and part, like in the split sort of sense that one that I am somehow in contact with that which is valuable for all. And also this is where it gets self destructive, that I'm the only one who can see it, and that no one else is seeing how, how truly amazing this is. And therefore I have to bring it. I have to be the bearer of this burden to tell and be the emblem of that is like, oh, oh, that's a lot to put on my own psyche. That's a lot of expectation to put on myself, because I will fail in being a perfect emblem of value. Well, fuck like, that's pretty much, that's pretty much been that, and so that's been over. I got into objective personality about, I want to say, two years ago, and I really did a deep dive. And then I've been compulsively as soon as I found any agreement this year, like I compulsively digging through the podcast. I've watched every single one of the dark, dark arts academy videos. I've read John's book cover to cover, and I go through over and over again, especially for the diagrams on, like, just over and over compulsively, like, it's been really intense, because that feeling of, I'm trying to be an emblem that will, I will never succeed in being, and the the first, the heartbreak of that and then realizing that, then I get to be human, and I get to live my life without that burden anymore, if I can catch a few, if I can catch that every five seconds, trying to be the emblem, and I can give myself a break if I notice it, it's like, oh my god, what a fucking relief. Like, it's, yeah, yeah. There's,
Josh Lavine 12:18
there's a few things that I want to just pull out of what you're saying and I have a question. So I love this point that your type is, is you're doing your type every five seconds, or whatever the frame is. It's like, this is something that I think is not well enough understood in the Enneagram world at large. And I agree, is something that the Enneagram or universe is, yeah, is bringing to the Enneagram world in a very real, tangible, grounded, like, look, you're doing that thing right now kind of way, right and again and again, that's right. So your type is, is spilling out of you in unconscious ways that, well definitionally, because they're unconscious, you don't have conscious control over them, and so, so I love that point. And the other thing is, I'm really struck by your use of the word compulsion in this like there's a an obsessive quality that you have with this stuff. And, yeah, the and also a sense of responsibility, it seems, for learning this stuff, for being, not just, as you say, an emblem of value, which that's an interesting term to unpack in itself, but I'm going to pull out so like in your in your YouTube video, the very the homepage video, you talk about feeling a responsibility to bring this knowledge to the world, that personality exists, that it and actually, I'd love to just turn the mic back over, like, can you talk about what is where does the compulsion come from for you? Why is it so important to you to learn this stuff and and does that word responsibility still land for you?
Gray 14:05
Um, responsibility is a like, I wouldn't have grabbed it for myself, but hearing it, it was like a a soft touch of Yes, like, it wasn't like an intense like, this is the exact right word, but I was like, but it's not in the wrong ballpark. I, in many ways, the word I somewhat relate to is burden, yeah. Like, here's yourself, yeah, but it's, it's burden, not in a negative sense, but like, the the load must be like, like, the whole point is, like, to know this and to not share it would that is, that's the burden to know and to not share 24/7, at all times with everybody that I found this jewel, that it's Yeah, so I guess, like, Why? Why is it a jewel? Is probably the more important question, which is. Is to know your own mind and to actually then have agency to choose if you want to believe the lies that your own brain tells you compulsively in order to keep you alive. It's like, listen, we're, for most, for many of the people that are watching this, you're you're safe, you're in a house, you have, you probably have friends if you don't, I'm sorry, and you're probably far more attractive than than people used to be, like hundreds of years ago, when there was no food anywhere and everyone had illness scars covering them, right? Like, like humans, if you like, comparatively to historical times, humans are beautiful. We are lush with connections, and we have so many resources, and to know that your brain is lying to you and saying that you're starved of one particular resource and that you're completely denying the significance of another, is and that then you're fueling incredibly anxious, neurotic, self destructive tendencies by that compulsion To keep up some some instinctual drive is like you could be free of that. You could be free for just one moment. If imagine just one moment of not feeling like you have to do it. And of course, the fact that I feel like I have to share, that is
Josh Lavine 16:16
social. So it's like I
Gray 16:19
feel like I'm I'm not lost in that like the when I made that video, I completely was registering the irony of everything that I'm saying, the fact that I'm saying that you can be free and that we can all be light and in the air and not grounded by anything, and we could just play and be ourselves. It's like, okay, that's all still social and an objective personality that's still the job of the EJ is to be the person who speaks for the tribe and says, we can all be free to be our own unique identities, because that's who the EJ doesn't feel free, yeah, partly, the social self press doesn't feel free to be themselves. You
Josh Lavine 16:55
know, I don't think it's a stretch for me to say this, and I'm curious how this lands for you. But this is, you know, when we were hanging out in person. Also this was coming through for me. Is For me, one of the and actually, I want to frame this too by saying it's, it's a little bit difficult to parse this out, given that your six fix is secondary. But the whole concept of the three moving to six, the Enneagram, is a really important one. And my experience of it, and my understanding of it, or one way that it's often framed is the idea that the six, the three in the average states, is sort of spotlight seeking, whether overtly or subtly or secretively, and is somewhat narcissistically self involved in wanting to be valuable for its own sake, kind of, it's about me. And, you know, whatever, want to be successful, crush my goals, like, fulfill my potential, all that stuff. And that is its own thing. And then the three moving to six is basically sometimes characterized as a way of the three waking up to realize that, oh, actually, I want to contribute to, like a team or a larger context, or something like that. And the way that I think of it is, it's like a quality of a clarified and devoted heart to some, something what. And I'm using the word thing in a in a deep way, you know, like, No, I know a cause or a sense of purpose where, like, the fibers of my being aligned towards this something, and it feels and it imbues my life with meaning and and it's not just about the Hungry Ghost of, can I get one more hit of validation, and can I earn another however much money to put on my bank account for my staff? Am I pretty enough? Am I pretty? Yeah, there you go, right? It's like, yeah, yeah. And so I hear a lot of those, a lot of notes like that, in your sense of devotion to this subject matter and and it's service for the world, that's so I just wanted to name that. Do you relate to that?
Gray 18:59
Yeah? Oh, absolutely. Like I, I feel like a, of course, I feel like I'm a high status Knight because of what else would I be. But I feel like a, like a knight who has gone off and fought and as and his work like I will fight tooth and nail for the things that I care about, and I do very much feel like I'm offering my sword up to a leash of being like, I'm turning this over to you now, like you have my swords. You can kill me with it, or you can tell me who, who to fight. And it's just that sense of like, and I'm and I'm handing that. I want to be very careful, because if anyone's not in the like, I'm not handing that over to like, specific individuals of the Enneagram, or universe. I'm handing that over to the Enneagram, which is like I am on the side. I love this. I watched a thing by wonderful, chaotic human called CJ the x, and he had a breakdown of Cronk from embers New Groove. But it turned down with the point of being on the side of art. Mm. The point of being on the side of art is that maybe you're not in the spotlight. Maybe it wasn't you that created the thing that is valuable. Maybe it's not about you, but because you're on the side of art, you will allow your ego to step down and serve art the higher thing that is pure and actually worth fighting for. And for me, that's I feel very much, I think, possessed compulsed by the Enneagram, because it's like I can actually hand my sword over to this and trust that if I that that is a greater that is a greater thing than me, and it will, I will be led astray, but it will not lead me astray, if that makes sense, because people are flawed. But that symbol is not inherent, like it is just a symbol. It's what, what humans read into it is the, is the imperfections, you know what? Like it can be tainted by that, but it, by itself, is pure without human touch.
Josh Lavine 20:53
I love what you're saying. It's, it's like, um,
Gray 20:57
kind of a lot of four in there too. A lot of forward fear of taint. It
Josh Lavine 21:01
feels like, honestly, a kind of medicine for me to hear it articulated like that. It's very because I, my heart aligns with it, I think probably as a three, also, or just our, our resonance stacking, and
Gray 21:15
we both love the Enneagram, yeah, of course. Like,
Josh Lavine 21:19
yeah, um, can you is this feeling of like surrendering my sword to the higher authority of the Enneagram or art, or whatever else lives up there? Is that a new feeling for you? Or can you paint the contrast between that and what it used to be like for you in your life? Or was there before and after?
Gray 21:44
Yeah, I don't, I don't know if there's a linear, like, a, like, a snap line, um, but I can point to, like, okay, so I remember when I was younger, um, my family. So, like, I'm much more slowed down at the moment, because I'm really trying to be very honest and very real, and I can use my high energy as kind of like this blustering shield of energy, so you can't actually see me. So I'm deliberately slowing down to prevent that. But so as a result, when I was a kid, my family would get me shirts like a plus and talking and stuff like, about how much I talked and I was always chattering and I always wanted to be the center of attention. To the point of where, when I was a kid, they called me David Koresh because I would get all the neighborhood kids surrounding me. It's like to have a six year old be compared to a cult leader. Is a little crazy, you know, but that's what I was like. And then I remember at some point in high school there was a whole Kony 2012 because he had the child soldiers thing. But the whole Kony 2012 movement was fucking corrupt. It was full of bullshit, and it absolutely was not going most of that money was not going to help those kids. And my high school had posters of it plastered everywhere, and one fell on the ground, and I stepped on it, and a teacher who I actually ended up being quite good friends with, after I freaking tore into him on this he told me to pick it up, and I just laid out about how absolutely ridiculous I'm not going to pick up this corrupted bullshit off of the ground. It shouldn't even be here. If you want to actually help people, you should. I don't remember the names of the fundraisers at the time, but I had like, four ready to go, and it was like, so at some point I went from that kid who was using her talking for herself, to there was glimmers of, it's not about me, because it, it, it, yeah, it would be great if everything was about me, but like, I'd like to live in the real world. And also I don't really like when everything's about me, because, God, it's, it doesn't actually, if it stays all about me at some point that the the It feels almost like with image you're painting on, like a wine glass, and like they're gonna see through you, or it's gonna crack, like something's gonna be go wrong. And I don't, I don't want that, like, I just know I don't want, I don't want that. I would rather do the cracking myself and be a little risk the imperfection and show that that's like, it's real. It's something real, and it doesn't help. Well, it doesn't help, but it adds on that 368 is lovingly referred to as triple real because of how three is not a it's not either romanticizing its darkness or romanticizing its light. It's just kind of what is and then six is tearing tearing into things for the sake of the super ego. It's trying to find what's real and what's true for the sake of what's good. And then eight is tearing into things and tearing it all apart for the sake of autonomy and for the sake of you will not contain me. So there's a lot of just, I'm not gonna I'm not gonna hide, I'm not gonna lie. For a three for three, it's, it's very blunt, real blunt, blunt force trauma is a. What I do to people,
Josh Lavine 25:02
um, this, that story of stepping on the poster, and kind of wasn't even the literature. It just happened. Well, actually, that specifically, even you saying that. I mean, this is, I was going to point out, kind of the six, eight stem, or your, your, this is okay. Also, I'm gonna say this out loud for people who aren't that familiar with the Enneagram. So yes, we're talking about this is we're being really fluid with and fluent with our referencing of the Enneagram here.
Gray 25:30
So go study it. More people three, so
Josh Lavine 25:35
six and eight are what we call reactive types. And you also have four wing, which is another reactive type. So what part of the lingo is that you, it would, it could be said that you're triple reactive adjacent,
Gray 25:48
yes, yeah, I am. I'm willing to tear things down. Yes, yeah, making that and,
Josh Lavine 25:53
and that's really interesting to me from the point of view of you being a core three, because three as an image, as an image type, tends to be very aware of how it's coming across and the presentation, and especially as a social three. And so for me, as a social three, who's relatively close to typing, but who has nine in my tri fix, the idea of just in a public way, like reflexively just laying into someone, certainly a teacher when I was in high school. Yeah, you know, I mean that that's a very foreign concept to me. And so,
Gray 26:31
oh yeah,
Josh Lavine 26:32
when, when you I actually, I just would love for you to say a little more about what it's like for you to be a core three and to be so aware of your image and and also to be so I've used the word like electric to describe you, or yeah, you have a lot of verbiage that's part of your kind of social presentation. And yeah, high energy, and the wiggles and just all these kind like, you're kind of a, yeah, you know what I mean? Like you're kind of a bubbly energy. And that that as a contrast to what we typically or stereotypically think of as through the forum, which is a little bit more refined or aristocratic or self controlled?
Gray 27:25
Yeah, yeah. I really like that you brought up, like, because I love, like, a, like, very sophisticated imagery, especially like, when I made my original collages, like I had one of purely angels. Like, I love that imagery, but the actual the actual experience of me, it feels much more like that. So that triple reactive, so 468, for those of you wondering, is a huge part of my type existence. And what ends up happening is I've like, when I say, like, like, well, I described that happening. And I was, I was like, 15 at the time, people like you did what like your reaction is, like you did what it's like, and I couldn't control it. It seized me, and it came out of me at some point. Like,
Josh Lavine 28:11
and that's, that's react. That's the reactive, just to name it, that's, that's what it means to be reactive. Type is that it's like, it just came over me. This, the reaction spilled out of me. Yeah,
Gray 28:20
yeah. Like, I remember I was hearing there was, like, another example on the podcast. I had to, like, pull over and breathe. I was so angry someone, like, laid into Emeka and called him a narcissist over something. And, like, you can say that that any assertive type has narcissistic quality, sure, whatever. But like, what he was taught, he'd gotten really vulnerable, and I I'm my god, I'm angry right now. Like, it just it disgusted me. And I wanted to, like, find this person and just, like, tell them on a visceral level how, like, they will never be what he is. They will never be so valuable. And the fact that they cannot see where they are at, and that they had the audacity to speak in such a way to that, which is someone who is trying to serve value, is like, you need to stop existing in anywhere where I can see you like, like, it's bad, it's really intense. And I've just had to accept, I've had to just incorporate that into my image, because what the hell else am I supposed to do? I can't not, like, I've just that's like, Why? Why would my collages that of angels, and they were, they were carrying swords and of violence. It's like I just had to start from a place of, I am aggressive, I am a bulldozer. Because, if I, like, if I tried to have, like, very soft and contained image, and then that came out of me. I would break so often. It wouldn't work, like it just said there's a three it wouldn't work. As if working is all that matters when it comes to your image, right? You know, just you gotta be confident. But, yeah, it's very funny how I've had to just pull it in and. Be like, okay, how can almost like, How can I romanticize my own experience of that reactivity? Because otherwise, like, there are plenty of like, I'm talking about the good times, right things where it's been useful, but there are plenty of times that I just have that compulsion come up over me, over something that really isn't that significant or is so personal to me that I'm destroying it for anyone who might enjoy it, or just generally being an asshole. And you know, those are all things that happen too. So it's not always pretty, but I can romanticize it, which then I gives me permission to do it, if that makes sense. Yeah, it needs to be romanticizable to exist.
Josh Lavine 30:40
So it needs to be romanticizable, to exist.
Gray 30:42
Yeah, that's a good phrase, isn't it?
Josh Lavine 30:45
Thank you thinking. I'm thinking about it. I'm gonna restrain myself from my own self reflective rabbit hole here. So okay, um, I would love to put a pin in that, because we might come back to that idea. Okay, but let's talk about tracking other people. Okay, so this is something when we were, when we were hanging out in person, it was amazing how let's see, I mean, the way that we didn't really know each other that well, but like, the way that you could see me tracking other people and call it out in the moment. Was hilarious and exposing for me. Yeah. And what I mean by tracking is just, and this is a social dominant thing, but it's also it's like a double whammy with social dominant and three core. It's like, right, right. It's like tracking sort of where other people are at. And what I mean by ads are like, how everyone is generally feeling, with respect to each other, with respect to me, what the vibe is, how I'm fitting into the vibe. And there's just, there's this, I'm speaking my experience of it, and I'm curious how yours either relates or contrast to it, but it's like there's a way that I am always being aware of of the vibe and and of my impact on it, and of people's responses to each other and to me, and is that an experience that you have as a like, very often salient part of your consciousness?
Gray 32:30
Hmm, um, how would I frame that for myself? So I feel like vibe is almost like, not quite vibe is like in objective personality, I'm a thinker, so in a sense, I'm missing the vibe in a lot of ways, and I'm disrupting it, which I think relates to my reactivity. But what I am still is I'm still an EJ, which means that I am tracking other people compulsively. And I think, actually, yeah, so I want to, I can build on the what was interesting about the track, about the tracking is then there was at one point where you said, Oh, that's your six. You're going into six. And I was like, see you do it too. Like there's a sense of like I'm watching you, but I'm watching you and I'm pointing you out. Because I'm like, hey, hey, look at you watching people. You don't have to watch so much. But the irony is, I have to be watching you to know that you're doing that. Like I don't have to be watching so much either I can mind my own damn business. No, no, because then there's also, um, I will completely admit to this. There's also the the like mental brownie points of see, I noticed our type happening, look, I noticed our type happening. Look, I saw it. Look, I saw it. Where's the like? And there's a bit of six in there. Where's the teacher? Do I get points? Now look at me. I'm so good. Look at me. I'm so smart. Look at that. I really understand this, because I can see our patterns. And it's like, okay, you can see shit. Are you doing anything about it? It's like, I'm trying. And that's a lot more humbling I feel. So there's definitely some ego boosting that happens, and then there's some self humbling that must occur, and does not happen as often as it should. So
Josh Lavine 34:10
partly, okay, just one thing to just say out loud, as I when you speak something I notice about you is that this is part of the sixth thing is it's like, there's the the thing that you notice, and then there's the counter reaction internally. And it's like there's an inner ping pong ball that's going on. And that's like, in that state, just to what I mean in that statement, there was the point, the point you make about, there's the ego boost of noticing and saying it, and then immediately, without prompting, there's the and what am I fucking doing about it? Kind of thing, which is kind of a super ego hit, you know, internally. And so anyway, that's that was just interesting to
Gray 34:56
me. Yeah. No, that dance. David. Talks about the horizon line of the Enneagram to three and six. So if you So, for anyone watching, just picture the visual of the Enneagram, and then that line between three and six, that's so that's what we're talking about. And that line dancing back and forth is literally like, there's me and there's everyone else, and there's me and there's everyone, there's me and there's everyone, there's me and there's everyone. And it's like that flying back and forth is an amplified by social, because me and everyone is suddenly characters that are hyper important. I will die if anything goes wrong there. And so that three, six stem plus social is really amplifying that flipping of if I say something and you notice it, and what if it's not completely correct, I better catch it, because I'll look bad. And so there's still that image at the end of the day, the big fear is, will I look bad? Will I be shameful? Will I be disgusting? There's still that, but it's still I'm using the super ego to keep that image safe. I'm protecting my I'm hurt. I'll hurt me before you hurt me. You you can't touch me. And there's also eight of my autonomy will not be infringed, because I'll hurt myself before you ever touch me. And that way I remain untouchable, which is still three untouchable, clean, controlled. I like the word I did all the damage. Yeah. I Yeah.
Josh Lavine 36:14
So one thing too, I want to pull out, and this is, depending on how deep you are into the Enneagram. This might be splitting a hair, but this is so the way that I use the word vibe, it strikes me as nine ish. And the way that you said, basically, you're not really tuning into that, or you have a almost, you're almost vibe blind. You know, yes, that feels kind of eight ish. It's like, when I say vibe, it is, it is a somatic sensing of the word, yeah, okay, you know. And it's like, it's a way that I'm not able to not be infused by the vibe, whatever that is. It's like, here's a way to put it. It's like, I am I enter a room, or I exist in a group as a cup of water that is infused by the tea bag of the group. You know what I'm saying? It's like, it's like, I take on. I just
Gray 37:16
you're getting tea. Are you getting tea bagged by everyone? That's the phrase you want to use. You sure?
Josh Lavine 37:21
Are you sure?
Gray 37:23
Are you sure? It's like, that could be messy.
Josh Lavine 37:28
Yeah, I'm a three, and I'm standing by it right now. Yeah. I mean, in a sense, I mean what I'm really pointing to is like an inability not to be infused. Yeah, yeah. You know it's like, or here's another way to put it, it's like, I show up as a sponge whose pores can't be closed. And the social tide is moving through me in a way that is, I can sense it from the inside. But with an eight fix, those pores don't really exist as much. They're just, they're they're solid and closed, you know, I'm saying yeah, and so. And so you show up more as a as a solidity, and are, and you exist in a group as that solidity. And so you're bringing your own vibe. But one, so, actually, yeah. And so one thing that is interesting to bring up, too, from our very first conversation, is how you say that you show up. Even in our conversation where we first met, there was the the fireworks display of your words and then, and then you stopped, and then you watched yourself, watch me, and my response to you, it was like you showed up and you were speaking, and while you were speaking, it was you were not necessarily tracking me or sensing me, but as soon as you stopped the it turns on the what? So what turns on that? That's the question. Okay,
Gray 38:59
okay, that's a really good question. So I through all that, I was really processing, like, the difference between somatic tracking and what I'm often tracking is I will remember everything that somebody said. I'll remember how, like they looked at each other in that sense. But I don't feel it. It's like I can see pictures of what that looks like and how the dynamics therefore exist. So it's much more like, it's less about the body experience of you, and it's much more about what did he say and how did he say it, and all that kind of like, more anxious fluttering, right? And that Pro, that much more anxious fluttering require like to track that instead of the body your mind has to be, it has to be a live wire and exposed, like a raw nerve. Has to be exposed to everything coming in, because it's a lot of information, yeah, so that, that lightning live wire of the six, really in the raw nerve exposure of everything, I feel like it really, um. So it like really amps me up in a way. So that way, my the way that I can do tracking has to be through that. I have to use it. That's the way that I'm using my three and six is just all through the what I'm seeing and then what everyone's saying, because I'm missing, I've cut off the part of me that's exposed to the world, because that's what it's a it's doing, is it's rejecting part of itself in order to remain autonomous, in order to remain in movement and in action, it's cutting off the part that needs nurturing. So to risk being touched and to be nurtured is unacceptable. So I feel like, I feel like it often relates to like the three six stem of like I'm either in the six or I'm in the three, which is I'm either here seeing you, seeing me, seeing you, seeing me, seeing you in the back and forth of the mirroring, or I am and all over the place, and explosive. Especially, I like that you use the word fireworks, because I think a lot like the the energy is very much like, let's put on a show. Let's put on something to watch. And it still has that element of watching, but there is a like, fireworks, you can't touch them. They're far away. They're going to burn you like, you don't want them touching you in that like electric Live Wire. Energy is a lot, and so all of my mirroring, I think especially and tracking of others. And rather than the vibe is I'm what I'm tracking is what people are saying, what they're putting out there, what their what their fireworks show is. And so something that's really interesting is that I have been catching that people that have our nine fixers, either nine core or nine above their six. Because there's a lot of people who are 369, in some order, direction, blah, blah, blah. Like, if they have nine before six, I'm really like having to tune in way more, because they're not giving me a lot of heady stuff to track, a lot of six energy to track. But if you're a six first, or if you're like 963, I can get a lot out of the person, but that 393, by itself, is like, I'm not giving you anything. You gotta really accept me impressionistically And visually. I'm not gonna talk. And I was like, What the hell is going on here? This is weird. And so it's like, I had to, like, really work to be like, Okay, what's going on? Like, I'm making little movements, but it's like, what's going on here? I felt like, um, like, you know, when you want to see a big real
Josh Lavine 42:25
quick, just to be clear, you're you're talking about me, right? Like, leave with 339,
Gray 42:31
and then also not, yeah, nines in general. I feel like I have to do this more. I feel like I'm a big cat and I there's like a fence between us, and I'm like, Just prowling, and I'm just like, What are you doing? And there's, like, a there's because for me, my goal is I want to, I want to get a sense of you, and then I want to, like, like, get myself through the bars almost, and then, like, just that have, it's like, it's like, I want to get my claws into people and be like, and you will never forget that I exist. I'm going to make sure, you know, like, okay, yeah, there's some eight in there. Of like, Ah, I'm gonna be, I'm gonna have the upper hand here. I will always have, there's some of that. And that three eight STEM is very much like that predator vibe, of like, I'm just sitting here, moving, waiting for an opening. I'm just waiting in the nine is, like, there's, there's not a lot going on here. It's not like, it's almost like a like, if the predator is like, waiting for movement to know what you're gonna where you're gonna go, I'm just waiting. It's like, it's not moving,
Josh Lavine 43:31
yeah, it's more like, this is really, this is really metaphorical, but it's almost like the nine is not, it's more like a lake. It's like, yeah, you could, like, you could come and swim over here if you want, but you're not gonna, like, get your closet. It's gonna you Right, right? Claws are gonna pass through, you know, right?
Gray 43:52
But that's where I can the three is like, I'm like, Oh, I see you. And that's where I think part of it is, even catching everyone's type is like, I saw that there was movement. There's individual movement. You weren't the all encompassing universe. I got you, and there's like, a and now I'm not letting you go, and there's still a lot of like, I It's like, I'm putting it in predatory terms, but that's like, that's what I do when I like people. Is like, I'm going to watch you like this, grab you and be like and now I'm going to make sure that you like me and that we're never you're never going to let me go either, because I don't want to be let go of so a lot of my gripping and clawing is to the sake of, I want to be someone else to grip and claw me and hold back just as tight it's like, yes, yummy, that's what I Want.
Josh Lavine 44:37
Um, can you say? Can you talk about when you're whatever word you would use, if it's whether it's the prowling, or if it's the fireworks, or when you're speaking, or you're, you're in the mode of on, you know, being on? Are you how aware? Are you of eyes on you? Or this is like one on one or in a group, I guess actually, let's just, let's, let's focus this for a second. Let's just talk about our the first conversation with you and me, or even maybe right now, like the the sense of the gaze is upon you as you're doing that versus when you're not doing that. I think that's, I mean, I'm really honing in specifically on this dynamic of your presenting and your your speaking, and it's the gray show, and then, and then as soon as you, and then as you, as soon as you stop, it's like the the outflow stops, and the inflow is available, and the inflow is all like, people's eyes on me and the quality of their gaze on me. And did it? Did I do well, or I don't, and I'm putting words in your mouth now, but like, what is that like for you?
Gray 45:55
Yeah, um, that I love that. Like the phrase, did I do? Well, God, that's a good one that there is. So I remember in middle school, and this memory just came up to me unsummoned, like it just so, like, I remember in middle school we had this thing where we were supposed to rewrite a song for a history project, like you're supposed to rewrite it and frame it for the American Revolution, right? And so I rewrote Miley Cyrus as the climb for the American Revolution, and I sang it in front of like you got extra points if you performed it for the project, because there's other parts of the project, and that way you could get some points up on your grade for the song thing. And I did it, and then my teacher wanted me to perform into front of the entire eighth grade, and I did. And in that moment, as I'm getting up there, I'm singing, no accompaniment. I have nothing with me. It's just me, literally, that's it maximum three, right? And it's like, I have the entire eighth grade watching me. That's like, that was over 100 people, and I had never done anything like this before, and it was like, and I had, and I this happens to me, it's like, I had to turn them off and just sing, and then, like, then I could turn it back on a little bit in and I feel like that's often what I'm doing in a conversation is I'm I'm taking what the person throws me, and it's like, I, if I'm thinking about what you're gonna see at the first moment, I have to turn it off, because I have to get I have to get moving. But then once I'm in, that's very six, eight stem as well, eight, using the eight to get me moving. And once I'm moving, then I can look and see, okay, is it working? Is it going? Well, do I stop? Because there is a, there's a moment, I sang the first verse in chorus, and they started applausing. But I was like, no, no, if you're clapping, I'm gonna keep going. So I sang the whole song, and, yeah, that that there's a, I think, of initial burst of it turning off, and then it comes back on after enough has gone back where I'm getting usually, especially if I'm starting to get verbal or physical feedback, like you're nodding, for example, I'm like, Okay, this is landing. This is making sense. It's resonating good stuff like that. I feel like I'm tracking after I've started talking. I think also, I suspect, I don't know if those this is true, it might be interesting to watch the recording back that obviously my body language, like I shut down in a big way once I stop talking, but also I suspect that when I start talking, I'm not looking at you, and that then once I've talked for a little bit, I'm coming back in and I'm actually able to look at you and know that you're looking at me, but I have to start with and I'm not being seen. I'm somewhere else, and I'm just moving verbally, obviously, but I suspect that would be a pattern. And now that I'm noticing that, I feel slightly embarrassed of like, Oh, I've been seen. It was by me, but still, someone noticed me, damn it. Yeah, fun, fun stuff.
Josh Lavine 48:57
So where are you looking when you
Gray 49:01
okay? So I feel like this is like, how I've been tapping into the gut center is like I went, like, when I say that image came up unbidden, like, I mean, like, I felt it come up, and then I saw it of me up on that stage, and I wasn't seeing me from the outside. I just remembered looking out into the crowd and seeing everybody, right and that I feel like that feeling of like the rising up to move, like that reactivity is like, I have to move. I think I kind of look a little bit forward, and then something comes up and I can go. And that's in an objective personality for anybody who cares. And if you don't care, you should, like, that's, uh, that's blast. That is the that is organizing information for others, and that invokes getting started, getting moving activity, that is all blast. And so that, like, it's very obvious that that is the, the hallmark of my existence. Is that? And, yeah, you know, I would agree with that. So
Josh Lavine 50:05
this is a riff I just want to go on for a second that has been bubbling in me. Is so the heart sensor, as I think of it is so much to do with the gaze, like how, how my gaze upon you and your gaze upon me, and the quality of that gaze, the the congruence of that gaze, the you know, are, are you seeing me, and when you look at me, what are you seeing? And when I, when I look at myself, what am I seeing? All that stuff you know. And there's a way that, if two people are in a conversation and they're really looking at each other, that is a level of heart intimacy connection that is often, well, depending on the quality of the gaze, but it's it's intense, and it can be threatening, and there may actually even be a Sexual blind thing going on here in the in the aversion of that gaze, right, right? But there's a sense like making and holding eye contact during a conversation. Is a it introduces an element of something, what is it heart or intimacy or something like that that carries with it a kind of like, oh, man, are we gonna, like, really be here together? Yeah, and, and, so as you were talking about, you know, in this conversation, not even or, like, when you're speaking, not even necessarily looking at me. I actually experience that in my own way. When I speak with people, is a kind of unconscious version of the gaze, or even if I am looking at them, there's something still protected in me. It's like I'm not fully opening the doors of my heart or myself, you know, unless for some reason, the quality of that conversation or interaction, or this, or the space in that, in that friendship, is safe enough that I feel like, okay, I can really show up. And then it's like, all of a sudden, I am behind my eyes and and when I look at you, it sort of calls you into that, like you behind your eyes, and then all of a sudden, here we are together.
Gray 52:27
So I love that. I love that, all of a sudden, here we are together. Because, like, you have to be tuned into the heart space to even know what that means, because two people could sit there like we're having a conversation. Of course, we're together, and it's like, Yeah, but you're not really, not unless you're really there. Then it's like, oh, now we're here together. Now we're really here together, yeah, yeah, I love that. I'm really glad you said that. Sorry. I just needed to point it out. It's so good,
Josh Lavine 52:56
yeah. So Okay, that's cool that you resonate with this point, and I bet that as a three Well, actually, let me ask it this way. How often do you get there with people?
Gray 53:21
Very, rarely, very, very, very rarely, like, nowhere near as much as I'd like. And it That's hard. That's hard,
Josh Lavine 53:33
yeah, and I remember, I don't know this is a yeah, you go, No, you go, go ahead. Okay.
Gray 53:37
There was something I had wanted to talk about, which is, like, the quality of, like, when you have, because we we saw each other very recently, and like, when you have two threes really looking at each other, and then kind of this, like, you know, we're both social self press, who are both, like, putting our weapons down and being like, so are we going to socially judge each other right now? And it's like, no. Are you going to judge me? And, like, just letting the weapon go and, like, ah, that relaxation of like, that's, I remember that, and that being like, so sincere, and that was rare. And then, you know that wasn't just with you. That was like several people that I care for. And so then it was like, whoa. This is a lot like, this is a lot, oh, my god, like, this is what, this is what social like. In a sense, this is what social should be. This is what it should be,
Josh Lavine 54:32
right? And
Gray 54:34
it's not, this is, it is so often not that, and it's, yeah, I grieve it. I've been grieving since so I don't think, I don't think I have that very often, if I have it very occasionally.
Josh Lavine 54:50
Yeah, it really strikes me that the heart center, if you think of, if you think of body, heart, mind, as like layers of of experience or like. Sort of dimensions of reality that you can tune into. The heart layer gets, I think, squeezed to a very thin slice between body and minds very often. And I think I'm also speaking from the point of view of being a three, which is an experiential reality where threes tend to inhabit body mind at the expense of heart. And there is a way that any of the instincts approach from, from the place of presence in the heart is there's a kind of sacredness that emerges, like the sacred social instinct, where, yeah, oh yeah, we're both here together. And or, you know, there's an analog to that in the sexual instinct, and in this instinct and in the self preservation instinct, I think. And I don't think that this conversation we're having right now is necessarily specific to threes, like, oh, it's not, I'm not pointing out that Oh, threes don't get here very often with people. It's more like people, people aren't often, yeah, that's right, yeah. And this is, this is as a social three Speaking for myself, this is kind of what I'm wanting always, yeah, and same Yeah. This is okay, cool, yeah. I'm so glad we got to this part of the conversation, because this is, I think this is what social threeness really is wanting. And, you know, it's like deep connectedness in this through the social lens, in the heart space and all the song and dance is, in a sense, a bid for this, but very often it's not really landed. And partly, it's because through the song and dance, we're not actually connected to it in ourselves, right, right? So,
Gray 56:46
yeah, that's that's been the thing, like one I just caught both of our body languages, like, as you're talking, where does my hand go? And then as you're talking, where's your hand going? Both of us are actually tapping, touching, actually, as we're getting to something real for us. Where do we go is instantly the heart, because that's where we are in this moment. So I just, I wanted to point that out, because I think it's important for people to see that body language like this is what it means. If you're really there, you'll know it, because you'll catch it if you're awake and here for it, you know. So I wanted to start there, social here, I want everyone involved come and join us. But no, I mean that like, so I brought up grief, because, especially with wing four of like, I'll get negative real quick with this is like I if I see, I am constantly seeking for value, and I'm looking for what is considered valuable. But when I see that the we're in a desert and there's no water in sight, and we're we're dying, there is a rage of like, how did we let this how did we let this world become so dry of the heart? How did we let this happen?
Unknown Speaker 57:59
And it's like,
Gray 58:01
it's very moves me to great grief that the world is so dry of heart because it there's a there's a sense that is felt and not just emotionally, but also in the body. Like I have a very deep sense that this is just true and just real, of like it was never supposed to be this way, and how did we let this happen? And in this very much, this huge amount of like, ocean of grief, like bottomless I don't think I'm ever I'll probably adjust. I will probably adapt to sitting with this feeling and become stronger at carrying it, but I am never I don't think it's ever going to leave me, and I think that is what most people don't know what they're missing. Most people don't have the language to know that they're not connected. Most people don't even have the feeling of being disconnected. They simply are. And that's even worse, like, like, at least, yeah, it just, it gets me. It gets me on a ridiculous level to know that this is what connection should be, that and because I even think of the language I'm using is in a sense of like, the social self press desert, and we have no sexual oasis. There's no water. We're dry, we're dried out, and we're dying. And to me, that's what it feels like. The is also happening in the heart space is something very similar. It's like we're in the six nine endless, like, because the majority people are there sixes or nines and a huge amount of that, those people are Bermudas, like, for context, but like, yeah, I feel like we're just lost in that, like, space, and we're not feeling, I don't know, I'm rambling. I'm saying the same thing over and over again, but it just, it's, yeah, it's huge. It's huge. It's everything. To me, is everything to me, yeah,
Josh Lavine 1:00:04
how much is this? I mean, tuning into it right this moment, the unconscious underpinning of the devotion you have to personality itself or your YouTube channel and things like that.
Gray 1:00:19
Um, I think this is a larger tapestry that I was chewing at one corner of I was chewing at personality as a corner of trying to knowing that people were missing something, including myself. And then this is giving me one not just language, but actual experience of what is being missed, which is true, real, raw, um, unfiltered connection, and then to have to see what it's like to because I, you know, I go back to work, and I'm realizing that, like, no one's seeing each other, no, what I just, I just spent, like, There was a huge amount of time just being seen. I think that is just that sense of oh no, oh no, no, no, no, no, no, no. And that is like, that's how I felt every time I got into personalities, like they don't know their personality, oh no. But like, this is a much bigger No. This is a much bigger No. This is like, the epitome of all knows, like, I was like, Oh no. Like, that's why I say it's like, I'm never recovering. It's like, it's like, this was the biggest No, and reactions like this is not like, this is a huge sense of this is not what the world should be like, but it is, and that just endless disappointment. There's just endless disappointment from here on out, which is, you know, great. It's great. You know, it's I make, I make being in the heart space sound so depressing. Like you have to understand, to have to anyone listening. You have to understand the depth of beauty that must be there in order to be this disappointed. Like you're seeing all the negative that's coming after. Like you have to, you have to imagine that it's equal an opposite reaction like this, like that is, this is, it's hard to share the equal and opposite reaction without being in it, in that moment. And you know, you had to be there, yeah. So this
Josh Lavine 1:02:15
is, this is the four. And I'll just, I mean, I'll put it in some explicit terms. This is, this is what it means, frustration in the heart space, yeah, you know, and yeah, and I guess I just, I feel a resonance with what you're saying. And I want to, you know, language is inadequate to to describe the stuff, and it's the nature of language. Language is all we have to create shared mind around headspace,
Gray 1:02:49
that fucking headspace, useless shit.
Josh Lavine 1:02:54
Well, I what I want to I just want to kind of put an exclamation point by what you're saying from the in a teaching way, because the this, what frustration really is, is the the the letting down of some ideal that is, that is felt, that, that there's a felt sense of that ideal that's being, Uh, disappointed, and, yeah, this quality of depth and connection is particularly through the social lens experience through the four Yeah. So that's, well, I just wanted to say that. So okay, I'm gonna reroute this conversation to a slightly different topic. Absolutely
Gray 1:03:41
go for it. Okay, I'm excited.
Josh Lavine 1:03:44
So one thing that you said that you wanted to touch on in this conversation was, and I quote, the role and purpose of three,
Gray 1:03:52
yes,
Josh Lavine 1:03:54
and we talked maybe a little bit about this other piece, but how Three On Three communication is unique. We kind of have been there. But I wonder if there's something else that comes up for you when I prompt you with those words, yeah. Of yours, yeah, yeah.
Gray 1:04:07
I think in particular the so we're kind of having a three on three conversations, so And from an educational standpoint, like, if you're watching, you can kind of see how there's a a almost a pause in the way that we're communicating. And there's a kind for me, there's an undercurrent of like, do you see this? And then I can kind of feel like, oh, he saw it, okay? And then I feel like I'm trying to give you like, I see you. I see you, like, like. And there's kind of make silent exchange that you have, in my opinion, you have to be tapped into the heart to feel that silent secondary language occurring, but I'm pre verbal, yeah, yes. It's yeah, and it's um. I actually want to bring up the object relations of the three. The wound that happens for the three is um, sooner than it happens for the six and the nine. It happens. When you know that, allegedly, when the child's an infant and it looks to its mother and it doesn't feel seen, that's early. And so there's it, that's, I think, where the pre verbal part comes from, is the six is having it in more of the almost like a toddler phase, when they're more ambulatory, when they're more heady, when they're talkative, when they're communicating and they're seeking support, and they're not getting it. For us, we are. Our wound is at the pre verbal, and so our language is additionally at the pre verbal, which is not dissimilar to the nine, but the nine still experiences it differently, because it's not in the heart space, it's through the body and through autonomy. So I wanted to kind of like, really highlight that I'm wiggling my fingers as if you guys can feel what I'm feeling, and you can see what I'm feeling, but it's like there is a sense of like, communication that's just soaring underneath that, hopefully, that they they can, you know, maybe if they review and they watch it again, they can see it and be like, Oh, this is what they're talking about. Like there's something passing in between, like ships in the night. But I think that's the role of three is, in many ways, to be able to see those signals. And then, especially for me, being heady, to put words to it and to say, this is you. You were giving you. Because everyone's giving off those signals all of the time, all the time. And so I ended up doing this exercise for my friends where I made them a bunch of collages spontaneously, and I just asked them, hey, send me a picture of you and I'll give you a collage. And I'm just taking everything that they are, that I'm picking up in that sub, that pre verbal way, and I'm handing it to them visually and saying, This is you. And over and over, it would like people, and I would write a couple sentences with it, and they were like, Wow, I feel seen. Over and over that phrase, I feel seen, I feel seen, I feel seen. And it's like, well, yeah, because I'm seeing you because I and then the kind timing into that great grief is like, Oh, I didn't do this with a desire if someone would make me one, because I made my own. I looked great. But then I was like, oh, but there's very few people in my life who could give this back to me. And there was a grief there of like, oh, even if I had wanted the exchange, I wasn't going to get it, and I was glad to volunteer it. But there was a oh, this is something unique to what I'm doing that's in the heart space. Hmm, there's a bit of sadness there. So I think the role of three is to take that pre verbal and then, especially because it's attachment and it's connecting to other people, to be able to hand it over and say, This is you. This is this. Here you are. And again, the heart space romanticizes things. So it's a this is you and you're beautiful, or this is you and you're dazzling, and this is you, and I can't wait to see who you're going to be when you grow up. You know, like that feeling, that vibe, I guess I do vibe there it is.
Josh Lavine 1:08:00
Partly what I'm responding to in this is just connecting a dot from our previous, well, the last part of our conversation, this sense of pre verbal seeing, or what's happening under the under the words in three on three communication. Or any, really, I think it's between any type but the there exists in any interaction the possibility of mutual seeing, or not mutual seeing. And the, I agree with you that this is, in a sense, the gift, or the, you could say the purpose of three is to bring this out. And I think that a lot of times the three gets stereotyped, understandably so, as radiance, glory, magnificence, big, bright, shiny, kind of energy. And that is certainly one manifestation of it. But it starts, I think, at the level of the glow of some very precious ember of of personhood you know, of you, of like the smiling infant, which isn't, which isn't fireworks and theater and display. It's just preciousness itself. And, oh no, you know your your like this collage thing that you're making, or like the sentences that you, that you say to people, when people feel seen, it's you just with your eyes, putting your eyes on that, you know. And anyway, yeah, so I find that very beautiful, and I have one, and we might come to a closer in a second, but this is one question for you. Is around that is I can sense in you, and I resonate in me, just how important that is like. That's kind of what life is for me, or what I hope for it to be, or those moments where I get to. Really taste that and experience it, be, be saturated by it. Are, are so important and and there is also, I have the four wing of being disappointed by that, not being my ever present reality. And I also have often in just going out into the world, a kind of resistance to going there with people, a resistance for it's like as much as I want it, I sometimes don't give myself permission to like, go there with someone, or to like, penetrate through whatever, whatever layer of film is on a person, to like see their heart. Because I know that doing that is intense. It's also not necessarily in a given moment socially appropriate. It's also it opens up something very raw and sweet and vulnerable, but it's just kind of like, it's like, it's a decision, in a sense, to go there, you know? And it's like, I have to kind of summon myself to do it. And, yeah, so I guess what I'm you got, what I'm saying, what I'm reaching for in this, in this part of the conversation, is like, why don't what? Yeah, go ahead,
Gray 1:11:22
yeah. Is it because this is how I feel? Like, is it that you're afraid of because like you have to make like you're you're picking up the signals, and maybe you can go there, but there's still the leap of, if I let it down, are they going to be there with me? Because that would hurt. That hurts so much more when, when I and I'm like, Okay, I'm ready, I'm here, like, I'm me, and then they're like, that's not okay. And I'm like,
Josh Lavine 1:11:51
that's, that's a huge one, yeah, that's a huge, huge deal. It's
Gray 1:11:56
like, I, I, I want, like, in a sense, like, I want to keep my clothes on, you know, I don't want them to see me like, I don't want to be exposed. And so there's a huge amount of, like, huge amount of of just energy put into reading. Can I can I go there? Can we go there? Are we doing this? Is this real? And that, I think is, I think if, if there is something to know, like, about threes, like, the reason we're watching isn't because we're constantly trying to control other people. Or, like, there's like, you know, obviously the behavior can turn to self absorbed narcissism, or it can turn to like, you know, controlling and manipulating people, but it's important to understand the motivation from the point of that infant. And I'm glad, like, I'm so glad I brought that up and that you reinforced it, because, like, if you see the three as I just want to be seen, and I just want you to see me, and I am terrified of the rejection that might occur, or the not being seen that might, for me, it's rejection, but like, the not being seen that might occur, it's like, it's like, don't, don't do that if you're, if you've got a three who's actually handing themselves over to you a little bit like, try to be open to them to the best of your ability. Because that's like, that's the wound that is. Like we are now. We are playing that out over and over again, because we keep being closed off and keep ourselves from being known it is partially our fault, but I think many people because they're not in touch with the heart space, even when I am like, Okay, I'm putting down the barriers and you're seeing me. If they're not there with me there, it's like, i Ow. This was the exact thing I was afraid of. This is why I don't do it. So I'm like, I'm guessing from you nodding, that that's where you're at as well as, like, this is why it's because you weren't going to be there with me, so I wasn't going to show you me in the first place.
Josh Lavine 1:13:58
I yeah, I don't think I could have said it better. Yeah,
Gray 1:14:01
yeah. This has been a really, like, you know what I hope? Here's, you know, you hear what you know. I hope for this interview, I hope people cry. I'm laughing at people's tears, but like, like, this is the like I've I've chewed up, like, that's the point you want to be in the heart center. You
got to bleed for it, you know? Like, I hope, I hope you all bleed, and I hope you love bleeding. The violence of eight, the violence of the eight. Fix
Josh Lavine 1:14:28
one. Just one more piece on this that I want to, yeah, say is that a lot of times it's people try to express, actually, man, there's so much. There's so much to say about this, and I don't want to overdo it, but so one thing that I'm tuning into is that a lot of times when people try to do heart it, it comes in a kind of overly. Of structured or verbal way where we set up these, like social rules of engagement, you know, and and I, and I state what I'm seeing in you in a kind of formal like I see your preciousness, and here's what I see kind of way, and because it's at the level of words and isn't really dropped into the heart, like you can feel a lack of resonance there, right? There's not quite the congruence. And so this is I just, I point that out because, you know this idea of the heart being a pre verbal sensing of, like, how, how present are you in the heart, as you're seeing me in my heart? And is there actually a heart to heart connection here, that's actually what the the yearning is for, and, and there's a very, very subtle sensitivity to that, that is, you know, it's just not, it's it's qualitatively different from the way that the body and the mind are sensing and yeah. And I think this also speaks to the something that I feel is also very misunderstood about threes is just how much psychological safety is required for for them as a precondition to showing up, yeah, yeah. And, you know, a lot of people see threes out there, like crushing goals and being
Gray 1:16:30
whatever, and so polished high
Josh Lavine 1:16:33
performers and polish and stuff. That's right, that's right. And this, this sense of like, very like, even, even in my body language and the way that I'm sensing for these words right now and in yours, it feels like we're this is another one of those, like words are inadequate thing, but it feels like our entire energy shifts to pay, to pay reverence or homage to this thing that is so precious. Yeah, yeah, you know what I mean, Yep, yeah. And that's that
Gray 1:17:10
came up earlier, of like serving the Instagram or serving art, is like, yes, like we're not Yeah, yep, just Yes, yeah.
Josh Lavine 1:17:24
And I think that part of the growth for three is, this is to your point about the purpose of three. And I say this as much as a statement for myself in terms of my own growth edge. But the point is, I think for threes to start getting comfortable enough with this being a gift and a thing that they can bring so that they don't need as much psychological safety as a precondition before they start bringing this into the world, into their conversations, into whatever. That's part of the this is part of like the super subtle under the hood, way, way under the hood, type structure of three. And the growth is, in a sense, I think threes are waiting in a to to be safe enough to show to show themselves. And you know, the first few times you show yourself, like the very first Enneagram class I ever took was that was that space of safety for me, and it was the first time I ever revealed certain things about myself to another group of human beings. And over time, I've started like the the muscle of exposing myself before people provide that psychological safety is is something that has shown up for me more, and that's why I think the virtue of the three is authenticity. It's the sense of being willing to expose myself as a way of bringing about that psychological safety, rather than needing it first said, I'm saying
Gray 1:18:56
yeah, yeah. So yeah, yeah, yeah. I think, I think that's something that I consider myself to be blessed with, the reactivity, because I can kind of get raw really quick. And I think that that helps me not hide a little bit, like it just helps a little bit, and it helps me get started, because I can at least get angry in a public kind of way. And then, usually under anger, there's something else. So then afterwards I can, kind of, like, get like, I can use the attachment to disconnect. I can use that six of like, let's fight about it. Okay, now let's get naked. You know, like, there's another word for it, like, they're like, let's get emotionally naked so but I think it's great how like I feel like you're really open. My impression of you is very open. Obviously, words do not properly define this, but I think that like I feel like, when I use my. Reactivity. But I feel like I also have like, an earnestness. I think the word you would use was like, innocence is like, there's an earnestness of, like, I'm gonna show up and I'm gonna, like, let myself be that little kid hoping to be seen. And like, I really try to, like, let that like, like the inner child, fuck. I hate that phrase, but like, that's what it is, is like, letting that out a little bit and risk risking the initial Miss to happen again, letting that be risked is, I think, the, I think the thing that all the types have to do, but I know mine very well, because it's terrifying. It's the one that scares me the most. So, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Josh Lavine 1:20:45
Well, I just have to say, I, I'm such a fan of you, and it's been so fun to talk to you. Yeah, I,
Gray 1:20:56
I would hug you if I could. Right now,
Josh Lavine 1:20:59
I feel that, yeah, I feel a lot of heart energy flowing in this conversation. The Wiggles.
Speaker 1 1:21:07
Always the wiggles. I'm a wiggler, it is known.
Josh Lavine 1:21:12
So what's this been like for you?
Gray 1:21:17
Being interviewed, being alive, trying to make jokes to keep you from killing your computer. Which of the above?
Josh Lavine 1:21:24
All of the above, just this experience of being interviewed. Yeah,
Gray 1:21:27
okay, being interviewed. I actually love being interviewed, because I often feel like that attachment, channeling thing, is most powerful in me. When I'm interviewed. I feel like I can really tap into myself in a really powerful way when I'm being interviewed, because I struggle to I even talk to myself when I'm alone, to help my kind of interviewing myself to help get a sense of that as well. So I love being interviewed, and I think this is probably my best interview yet. I think I've been very real this interview. And that's like, the goal, that's always the goal for me is, like, how, how real, how, how many clothes can I take off, or playing, playing strip interview, how real can I get? You know, like, yeah, really trying to risk it. It's scary, it's terrifying, but you've been, you've been a lovely buddy as we just sit here and try to throw off clothes. Be like, how real are we? Who knows?
Josh Lavine 1:22:30
Um, yeah, I I'm just sitting with something here that's not really again. Well, one thing I love is our theme about words are inadequate for this. But yeah, there's almost a sense of like to truly honor the heart space, or like this, the sense of having landed here together almost requires silence. It's like, words just they're not an adequate vehicle to express what this is, you know.
Gray 1:23:11
So, yeah, body does. The body does better. Like, the this, it's like, that's close to an image of, like, you know. Or like, when I'm doing this, I'm like, trying to give people an image with my movements. You know, it's like, see this, and then therefore, know it for what it is. Because I cannot words it like, the headspace is great. I love the headspace I'm in. It all the time. I use it for humor quite effectively, if I do say so. But the it is a, sometimes it can be a bit of a it clarifies things. But there are some things that are, there are too many things relegated to the headspace that sometimes should be put to the gut, or like, to the body, to the heart. Um, yeah. And I think this is honest, real connection is one of those areas I think,
Josh Lavine 1:24:02
well, thank you again for doing this, and thank you for having yeah and just okay so everyone knows. People can find you at augmented personality YouTube track, yes and yeah, I just really appreciate you and being in this heart space with you, and thanks again for This conversation.
Gray 1:24:21
Yeah, thanks for having me.
Josh Lavine 1:24:22
You're welcome.
Unknown Speaker 1:24:23
You
