Kaisa Jauhiainen 0:00
When I'm fascinated by something, I feel this kind of bubbling warm energy. It's kind of rising upwards my spine and then spilling into my limbs and my head, and it kind of just moves me like a magnet towards things, and it's an energizing instinct, kinda I noticed when there's no juice for the sexual instinct, I kinda go into the very kind of catatonic state, and then the sloth really kicks in.
Josh Lavine 0:42
Welcome to another episode of what it's like to be you. I'm Josh Lavine, your host today, I'm speaking to a sexual nine, sexual social 9.8 named Kaiser Yan. We cover a lot of ground in this conversation. We talk about what it's like for Kaiser to be a core nine with a flat line, tri type nine, uh, the 935, tri fix. And also a triple reactive overlay. And it's just very interesting to me how Kaiser, as you'll experience in this conversation, has a very even slow demeanor, and the stories that she shares, and the kinds of things that go on in her inner world are actually quite stormy, you might say, or at the very least, peak in terms of their emotional and psychological intensity, in a way That really doesn't get through the layer of presentation. We also explore a lot about what it means to be a sexual dominant nine, and what it means to self regulate through the sexual instinct, what it means for her as a nine to be seeking essential harmony through the sexual instinct. And there's really a way that this conversation helps me understand the texture of the sexual instinct from a sexual dominant point of view. And there's a really beautiful couple of moments towards the end where we're exploring what it really means to not compartmentalize the sexual aspect of your experience out of your life like sexual blinds do, but actually have it to be for forefront in your experience, in the way that she has it for her one final thing to note about Kaiser is that she is a graduate student in psychology, and I think given that, plus her five fix, she is able to speak to her own inner world with remarkable clarity. And as I'm sure you know by now, having watched some of these interviews, I think of it as a great privilege to speak with people who've cultivated a sense of their own interiority with a degree of precision that allows them to articulate it, and this conversation was extremely rich from that point of view. So I hope you enjoy this conversation. Please welcome Kaiser. Welcome everyone to another interview. I am so excited to be with my new friends, Kaiser Yav, who is from Finland and studying psychology, currently in a gap year, and with her studies. And I would love for you to just introduce yourself, actually, with respect to your typing, your whole typing. And let's, let's begin there.
Kaisa Jauhiainen 3:19
Okay, hi everyone. So I was typed one year ago as nine, ring eight. My instinctual stacking is sexual, social. My traffic is 935, the flat line. And my overlay is eight Fauci which is like funny, because it's highly contrasting to my traffic, because my overlay, it's triple reactive, while the traffic is the flat line, so there's kind of the minimal expression versus the very reactive expression. So it was actually really hard to type myself. I thought I was thriving for for a very long time. It's my second fix. So
Unknown Speaker 4:20
yeah, but
Kaisa Jauhiainen 4:23
I think when I received the result, the nine wing eight landed really well. It's kind of I had maybe some idea that I could have that in my traffic, or I could even have that core so it, it wasn't I had a very easy time, like getting into observing the type in my daily life and hearing the many other types exactly as. Especially, like heck said, I think nine, eight is quite an easy one, once you get a grasp of what's going on.
Josh Lavine 5:11
So when we first met for our initial kind of pre interview chat, I was I was really impressed with how much and how deeply you've thought about not just the Enneagram, but your own typing structure, and the way that it all works in you, and the way that you just set it up now is it's like you experience some pretty extreme polarities internally. You have the very withdrawn, flat line kind of thing, and you have the triple reactive overlay. You also are. Another polarity that we talked about is you being a core nine, which is as you're experiencing it has a lot of withdrawn energy, but also sexual dominant, which has a need to broadcast yourself. The eight wing,
Kaisa Jauhiainen 5:59
yeah, is kind of giving the kick that to that nine chords. Like, as it says in the Enneagram website, nine, the eight wing gives the nine a permission to be as nine as it wants. So like, what that means that sexual nineness is the air Queen kind of gives me a permission to do it, whenever, however it's there's not a lot of consideration into how it, how it's gonna kind of come across. It's like, as it said, it's 998, is a bit sloppy that way. But the flat line. Like I think my biggest influences are flatline and attachment. I mean withdrawn and attachment, but I get really outgoing often, and the triple reactive kinda has this kind of immediacy around it. It's kind of like my attention is really caught by something, and the reactivity is like, it's like a thorn in my flesh, in a way that's like, kind of like I need to address this thing like right now, and why is, why is everyone not addressing it? But then, on the other hand, the withdrawn and flat line is just, I'm just like,
I might internally feel the reactivity, but it's not necessarily, necessarily shown outwards at all. It's just like my normal face is neutral and the overlay is kind of negative. But the thing is that, especially in a social setting, neutral is already kind of negative. Ish. So I have a lot of people often asking me, like, what's wrong? And you look so angry, or you look so sad, and I'm like, This is my normal face, and I'm an eye. It really takes a lot of energy if I'm just gonna, like, smile for no reason, like head types are very bright in the head, and I'm head last, so my head is slow and it takes some energy to kind of start beeping in the head.
Josh Lavine 8:38
One thing that is interesting to me about we were saying is, you experience internally that thorn in your flesh of the triple reactive thing. My experience of you and your energy is as far away from triple reactive as it possibly could get. It's like you, you know you seem like just placid and oceanic, to use your word that you were using before. It's like there's a lot of stillness in your body and also in your just energetic presence, and at least the way that you're affecting me, like, even right now, in this moment. So it's kind of, it's funny, it's hard for it's hard for me to, like, even think of you as having a triple reactive component. But I get that. It's, it stirs some kind of inner storm experience. Yeah,
Kaisa Jauhiainen 9:34
exactly like, that's the thing with nines, because they are kind of suppressing the rage and everything that their internal experience is vastly different from how it comes across.
Unknown Speaker 9:49
I think, yeah, yeah.
Josh Lavine 9:50
Can we talk about, I would love to set this up just with your experience of nineness itself. To the extent that it's possible, not. This is sort of intellectual exercise, because it's, I'm trying to isolate your inner experience of nineness from the rest of your typing structure, which is actually not a possible thing, but I'm not
Kaisa Jauhiainen 10:16
sure if it's possible.
Josh Lavine 10:17
Yeah, but like, just, just in terms of the some of the core facets of nine, like sloth, or the way you experience energy itself, or your life force, or suppression of things, or what, what vitalizes you, that kind of, that kind of stuff.
Kaisa Jauhiainen 10:35
Oh, yeah, I can go into that, but I would have to include my dominant instinct.
Josh Lavine 10:40
That's great. Yeah, let's go there.
Kaisa Jauhiainen 10:44
Well, I'm sexual dominant, and they are actually the lowest two centers, like Kurt, Jeff Blaze, the centers like along the spine and so on. So the gut center, and the East and the sexual center, they are like the lowest. So when I'm when I feel energetic and vitalized and kind of getting into the sexualistic more, when I'm fascinated by something, I feel this kind of bubbling warm energy. It's kind of rising upwards my spine and then spilling into my limbs and my head, and it kind of just moves me like a magnet towards things, and it's an energizing instinct, kinda, I noticed when there's no juice for the sexual instinct, I kinda go into the very kind of casatonic state, and then the sloth really kicks in. I think my bodily functions, they just shut down, and I will go into the energy saving mode. And how you described it, it's like a global shutdown to the body. But when I get hooked by something, then it says I get really, like, big amount of energy. It's like either zero or 100. There's no in between. So,
Unknown Speaker 12:31
yeah, what do you? Can
Josh Lavine 12:32
you give me an example, something you get hooked by? Well,
Kaisa Jauhiainen 12:39
it's often people, topics of conversation, like especially topics that kind of get into the bottom of explaining the whole existence, or psychology or the universe, or any kind of like obscure topic is, well, that's very like five flavored, but then also like interesting people, everything that's some somehow vibrant and beautiful and out of the norm, and kind of, how would I explain? Well, that's an easy example about when there is no juice, which would be like most of the environment, unfortunately, it's kind of professionalism and institutionalizing. Culture is like, it's so dry, like I remember at school, I really tried to pay attention, but my body was like, shutting down. I got the sloth, sloth going on. My eyes always started like, you know, when someone is about to lose consciousness, the eyes just like, start rolling upwards, and I tried to keep myself awake. I had like various sharp items, and I just under the desk. I kept stabbing myself just to stay awake. And every time I tried to study or something, I just fell asleep. And it's actually when, you know, when people say, in the group, something that is self, self exploit, breaths or something, it's not that we think that we are better, that some some. Some kind of mundane things, or could be that too. But it's mostly because, like, we, we are not able to do it like we are physically not able to we are gonna pass out. At least I'm going to, like, I can, I can listen to stuff where is where there is no juice. But I'm gonna have to stab myself to do it, and I will eventually, like I would burn out. I have had such a severe burnout in my life.
Josh Lavine 15:36
How are you experiencing like, I'm really struck by the severity of what you're saying.
Kaisa Jauhiainen 15:45
Oh yeah, you better get used to it, because I'm gonna throw curveballs. I should add a disclaimer episode,
Josh Lavine 15:59
yeah, but the curveballs are, there's juice. They're deliberate. I mean, they're verbal and conceptual, and I get and you're talking about your experience, but the curve balls are happening at an energetic level. That's no different from when you're not throwing a curve ball. You know what I mean? Or like, yeah, you're Yeah. Are
Kaisa Jauhiainen 16:20
you referring to my expression? Yes,
Josh Lavine 16:25
I'm. I'm referring to your energy, which is based, well, flat line is a word for it, but it's like it's the same, even when you're when you're talking about stabbing yourself. Let's just be clear, when you're a child right in school, taking a sharp object from under your desk to to stay awake or stay engaged in to basically, like, keep yourself in some kind of way conscious. Yeah, because there was so because, as I understand it, you were so bored or on, it was like, there was no possibility being hooked by anything that was in your environment, you know?
Kaisa Jauhiainen 17:03
Yeah, it's it's bored, but also the instinctual drives are kind of regulating states of arousal and states of being awake, or like states of awakeness. Yeah, that's a good way to put it, yeah. And when, one day, kind of, how would I say it, when there is a I forgot every word in the world one moment?
Unknown Speaker 17:42
Yeah, take your time. Yeah,
Kaisa Jauhiainen 17:47
when the situation doesn't have any needs that could be could be met for the core instinct, I think, especially with nines who have sloth and withdrawn, the mechanism is to shut down and go into a cocoon. Or, you know, when seeds or fungi, if they go through a dry period, they are just going into this stage of stasis, they could spend years in that state and then wake up when there is water. I think that's what my instinct is doing. Maybe assertive types could, like create that Tuesday or something. But I have a bigger withdrawn influence. So mine was to kind of withdraw in my head, in my own conceptual things, and I just couldn't give myself awake I was, I was really fighting hard, hard, falling asleep, but it's just always happened.
Josh Lavine 19:11
I'm getting a really strong hit from you of head last energy, and it's, it's not like anything that you're saying specifically, it really is an energy because what you're saying is what you're saying has a lot of intellectual heft and clarity as I'm experiencing it, but it's just my experience of you in this moment. You know, if you're listening to this as a podcast, you're not going to see this, but like, just the way you are being. It's like, I can feel that your body type, and it's almost like to to take your internal body experience and then verbalize it in a mental way. There's, it's almost like there's. Yes, there's some actual process you have to go through to name your experience and then get it out. So I can feel like, in a sense, the distance or the the engine that's that's having to do that, like if I were talking to a seven, the words would be like, much more, well, quick and facile, and metaphors pinging and stuff like that. And yeah,
Kaisa Jauhiainen 20:25
they're kind of processing as they go. But yeah, yeah, I have to kind of well first of all, what is my internal experience that is already a mystery, because I have all the kind of objectifying and a lot of this dissociating influence. So what is even my internal experience? I have to find it, and then I have to translate it, and that takes some time, and it's, yeah, I have been kind of cultivating a very broad vocabulary and verbal capability, but it's not coming out very fast, and it has some limitations, and it can get like overly technical. Instead of being like that, I would actually express my experience?
Josh Lavine 21:24
I see, yeah, how are you feeling right this moment?
Kaisa Jauhiainen 21:35
I have no idea. How do I know that? I I don't like sitting for a long period sometimes.
I really don't know.
Unknown Speaker 21:57
Yeah, okay, I
Kaisa Jauhiainen 21:58
don't know how I feel. I I should probably try and connect with my heart space. I kind of forget to do that a lot of times
Josh Lavine 22:18
because I
Yes, I had an intuition that it would be a good idea. We're, this is funny. We're two head last people speaking to each other. I have this I had this energetic sense that our conversation was drifting into to like your inner experience of yourself and my inner experience of myself, and I had the thought that asking you how you're feeling right now would kind of bring us back into a we space instead of two eyes.
Kaisa Jauhiainen 23:03
I see Well, words are certainly quite clumsy. But how is your internal experience? What are you feeling?
Josh Lavine 23:15
That's a good question. I'm feeling pretty calm, settled. I'm feeling curious about your experience. I'm feeling
one thing I notice is that when I speak with, when I've, when I've done these interviews with other typing so with other people that are, let's see, maybe head types, or just, I don't know, people of other typing structures, There's, there's usually, like, clear, clearer demarcations in the conversation of like we're not exploring this topic, and then we're going to explore this topic. Or I have a better sense of being able to direct the conversation into those kinds of areas. And in this conversation I have, I don't have that. I have a sense of I have a sense of being in a somewhat murky state of exploration of the totality of your inner experience all at once. Yeah,
Kaisa Jauhiainen 24:33
yeah? Because, like throwing, like throwing a ball, like there are tears tennis,
Josh Lavine 24:40
yeah, it's like, playing tennis.
Kaisa Jauhiainen 24:41
I don't have that like, and the five fix is not gonna help with that, because it's like, either I'm five fix is not very like, socially attuned. Who. It with the other person, so I kind of have to manually try to manage that when I speak. But it was very interesting. My I have two sisters, both of them are sevens, and what I learned in the AA Dark Arts Academy is that head types, they can, like process what they hear at the same time that they speak, and like when they are speaking on on top of you, they are still kind of taking in what you say, and it's like still already going out. And I don't have that Anna, I feel I feel so slow, and when I try to be quick like them, I just end up consuming so much energy, and then I have to withdraw for a week.
Josh Lavine 25:55
I know exactly what you mean, and I'm an assertive type, so maybe it's a little different for me, but as a person who, I mean, I have nine as my secondary fix, yeah, that sense of having, yeah, go ahead,
Kaisa Jauhiainen 26:11
yeah. I mean, I have an a 32nd fix and assertive win. But still, it's unless it's it's a conversation that ultimately would kind of energize me, because I think what the sexual instinct especially is doing is that it's kind of volatile. It adds a lot of energy into the thing that you are magnetized by, and you all of your focus goes there. And I have experienced several times that when I'm really into something, be it a person or topic, but I just can't sleep. I end up skipping night sleep because I just can't I'm like, so into the thing. So I think one,
right? Yeah, yeah, please go ahead.
Josh Lavine 27:23
Well, I find that interesting. I find that quite amazing, actually, that like the experience of being pulled really strongly by an interest, or, like some it's almost like my sense of you is that it's very difficult for you to rev your own engine and but you exist in this state of profound open receptivity, like waiting, hoping that Something will start the engine. And when the engine starts, it's like your entire being, life force, every fiber aligns to that thing, and it becomes very focused on that thing. And it's actually difficult to turn the engine off until maybe you reach a point of exhaustion or something like that. Yeah, that's,
Kaisa Jauhiainen 28:18
I couldn't have found a better way to put words into it that was like, perfectly articulated, well as energies. I think, I think someone brought a comment in the group that self press is like a low harm, low steady harm and social, maybe is a bit like polka dotted, but sexual, then is this kind of zero or 100 chanting according to the circumstance and the target, and when it gets on, There's like a tunnel vision. And I don't know how this is for other core types, but gut type, inherently, it's moving center. It's like moving center. And so when I get magnetized by something, then I'm already going like my head doesn't have a lot to say about that, the only thing my head does is that, because it's a competence type, it's like, well, we can make it happen like this and this and this and that way. It's not like even there's no question if I should do it or not. I'm just going, can you
Josh Lavine 29:39
talk about being a sexual type and being and having double competence in your fix, in your typing.
Unknown Speaker 29:45
Oh yeah, I can kinda,
Kaisa Jauhiainen 29:54
I'm just going through, like so many tangents right now, but I can some. To like, circulate or triangulate around the blind spot. Okay? Because I have a hard time like getting what self press even is. So I think inherently, every instinct is trying to get resources like search. Press is associated with resources, but I think every instinct is because I'm kind of collecting resources for attraction and resources for chemistry. And what social is doing is collecting social resources. And how to get this actual resources. That's what the comms, diet competitive fixes have helped a lot. I kind of, I have optimized my nutrition intake. It's according to my monthly cycle. And there are like four faces, and in every face there's a really different and separate kind of need for nutrition. I have optimized everything, and I know I know them by molecular structure, because it's one of my interests. It's one of my fascinations. And the instinct is the driving force. So the fixes are kind of harnessed towards the goal of the instinct. So my competence is applied in the sexual context. That is,
Josh Lavine 31:40
that is fascinating. And do you have words for why your nutrition plan is directed via sexual instinct versus self preservation instinct? Like, why that's on its face, it would be like, Oh, nutrition, that's self press. Well,
Kaisa Jauhiainen 32:02
that is self press, but there's nuance in the kind of nutrition I eat. For example, I eat mostly vegetarian. I need my body to kind of, well, first of all, weird to be self breast bind, but be a gut type and have competency type, COVID, these types, is kind of compensating for the self breast, blind, but the nutrition makes me I don't eat anything that would hinder my reproductive health. I don't eat anything that will make me smell bad or anything I eat only foods that make very kind of healthy, glowing clear skin and hair and because as a nine it's very important to regulate the nastration to be optimal, otherwise I will have a loss of energy if I Yeah. So I want to kind of be sure to have this kind of inherent attractiveness about the food. And I think maybe some of it could even be that that kind of social contextualizing with sexual social that I'm the kind of person who eats this healthy food and stuff. But honestly, I can't stand processed food. I think I can. I get, like, heart palpitations and it, it kind of feels bad in my body. It makes me really tired, and it, it makes me really smelly. I don't like that. I'm sensitive to, like pheromones. This
Josh Lavine 34:06
the smell thing is really interesting. I mean, that has the feeling of sexual instinct to me, like just being, I mean, I guess you could be self pressed too, but the feeling of, like, how I am smelling, so as a sexual, blind person, that's like, I very rarely think about that really. It's like, Yes,
Kaisa Jauhiainen 34:28
I think that mean, first things like, I notice about the person is that, what is their kind of natural scent, or it can't be thoroughly I kind of masked with with artificial sense. It's always coming through, and it's like, I'm very aware of that. And so, you know, people can smell the good genetic match if their genetic. Are optimal for reproduction. I think sexual types are very aware of that, because some people's smell is just so intoxicating that
Josh Lavine 35:11
feels also extra heightened because of you being a body type,
Unknown Speaker 35:19
yeah, yeah, I guess. And
Kaisa Jauhiainen 35:24
then there's another thing with the chromatin. Is that at first I was a serial monogamist, but they were like destructive in their outcomes, so I decided that I have to adapt to the culture that is currently going on with the dating world, which is like kind of disposable and having one night stands. And I had, well, I started my kind of sexual life quite late comparing to other people, I think. And after a couple of relationships, I really had to get into the bottom of the how do I move in the dating culture? Because I can't just jump into a relationship. I have to be able to have other type of relations. So I applied my competency. I had three dates on three days. They were like,
Unknown Speaker 36:42
uh, they were, what
Kaisa Jauhiainen 36:48
is the word again? Well, one was in Friday, then it was Saturday, then Sunday. Consecutive.
Unknown Speaker 36:53
Yeah, yeah,
Kaisa Jauhiainen 36:55
I guess, sure, okay, but the main idea was to collect data. Now I think, like three occasions is enough to have a sufficient amount of data. So, yeah, I think I learned a lot. It wasn't necessarily an experience that I was really well. I didn't get very high on it in the sense of the sexual instinct. It wasn't very mind blowing, but I think it was important information, and it kind of had an effect to me, that I gained some confidence that, okay, I know what's going on, and I think I can go go through this, through this. So then I was ready for Tinder and that sort of stuff. So
Josh Lavine 37:49
it's so interesting. Yeah, there's a there's a few things about that. Mean, there's just, I'm curious about the insights that you got just on their on their own. But one of the observations I'd like to make is that you as a nine with an eight wing, particularly sexual dominant nine with an eight wing, my experience of your energy is like, kind of like caramel. It's like, there's just this kind of oozing like thing, and even though you're double competence in your tri fix, and the way you're describing this is kind of dry, like I had three dates on three consecutive days, and this is the insights I got, and this is how I kind of went about it. That's all that's packaged in a nine wing, eight sexual envelope that has a certain kind of like, kind of quality, and I can't, I don't know what. There's no there's not a word for it. It's just a feeling. And it surprises me. It surprises me that that was you went about this in such a strategic way, given that your core type is 918, exactly,
Kaisa Jauhiainen 39:03
it's been kind of weird to realize that being self breast doesn't mean that you are inherently bad at everything. It's just that whatever skills you have, you apply it to the sexual instinct I could have, like, very intricate plans and everything. It's just that I apply it to the sexual instinct and completely ignore the self press I'm
Josh Lavine 39:31
really tuning into this. Like, if I ever have some kind of build up of energy in my system, like I get stressed about something, or I, let's just, let's just say it's like generic work stress or something like that. My release valve as a social type is to talk about it with my friends.
Kaisa Jauhiainen 39:55
Well, I do a lot of self pressed stuff, like yoga. And work climbing and Kung Fu and that kind of thing. But this actual one is the best
Josh Lavine 40:10
way. Yeah, and the best by best, I mean,
Kaisa Jauhiainen 40:14
it's just that I don't think it's it's best in the moral point of view. It's the way that works for my nervous system. Exactly.
Josh Lavine 40:21
That's what I'm saying. Yeah, it's like, it's, it's the most effective way for your nervous system. Yeah,
Kaisa Jauhiainen 40:26
it's like, I don't always even agree how my nervous system works. I don't think it's, it's a good thing that it works that way. I don't think it's necessarily always moral, but because it works that way I have to make compromises. And sometimes I, I very often I, I can do self press stuff, if I kind of negotiate with the sexual and find overlaps, like, where is the sexual instinct overlapping with the self press. For example, yoga, you get flexibility, good for sexual for obvious reasons, and still doing the self press. Or if, if I go study to the library, I'm I'm like, the sexual instinct is like a teenager that doesn't want to do the thing that it needs to. And I'm like, you can go to the library and go see if there's interesting people. And you can also display your new glasses. You look really good with glasses. Oh, okay, you know,
Josh Lavine 41:41
yeah, this is, I, I love this whole part of the conversation. It's part it's, it's reminded me a lot of of John's book, that first of all, the instincts are all about how we regulate ourselves, what we allow us, what we allow, in a sense, to regular nervous systems. And so the sexual instinct is profoundly regular, regulative for you. And the other thing is how the dominant instinct, we kind of do the work of our blind spot instinct through the lens of our dominant instinct, or the dominant instinct, tries to support the blind spot instinct in ways that are sort of indirect. And so like you're you're hitting your self pres need, like you go to yoga. But it's not because, like you're trying to feel excellent in your body. It's like there's a sexual kind of motivation to get you to go, sexualistic motivation, yeah.
Kaisa Jauhiainen 42:34
I mean, it's really hard to get into my body, because it's kind of not a part of my self concept, in a way. And always when people were talking about out of body, out of body experiences, I didn't quite get what they meant. I was more like, like, you have an in body experience, like, really. And some time ago, I was getting into the practice and doing surface I was doing, like, Tai Chi and Qigong, that kind of stuff I was doing that whole day. And then I got the experience of, like, being in the body, like, you know, when a baby, at some point has the realization that, hey, like, these are my hands, and I can move them, and I'm, I'm, they are my handset. I'm in the handsome and that happened to me some time ago, and I was like, I'm kind of feeling the vital energy of my body that's not just tied to the sexual energies, like my body energy, and it's there, and it's vibrant, and it's the one to express itself through the body. And that was really amazing.
Josh Lavine 43:46
How long it was that,
Kaisa Jauhiainen 43:49
how long ago? Yeah, month,
Josh Lavine 43:54
month, yeah, that's amazing. That's like, a really fresh experience for you. I mean, is that, is that a turning point in your life, in some Is it a big deal for you like to have had that experience? Or is it like that was a nice thing that happened?
Kaisa Jauhiainen 44:13
Kind of a big deal, I would say. And the thing is, I don't really remember that. I kind of remember the feeling, but I can't awaken it as a as an experience. If I wanted to, I think it would require some, a practice of hours, or something like that.
Josh Lavine 44:39
One of the one of the reasons I asked that question was because, as so my sense of what it's like to be a nine is that you're a body type, but it's the, it's the it's the body type that's least in touch with or has the most difficulty getting in touch with the actual vital, vital experience of being in my body. Body, yeah? And, and that experience of like, oh my God, these are my hands. I'm inside my hands, and there's this vibrance to that experience that's aliveness itself. That's what it's like to be in your body. That's what it's like. That's the salient, most precious thing. And I think for body types, right?
Unknown Speaker 45:19
Yeah. And
Kaisa Jauhiainen 45:23
yeah. It's also also getting into the gut center, like being in touch Yes center, and also being in touch with the self pressing, which is like double heart for me. So but about the self press blind, that's also another thing. It's I have gone years without noticing that I have something wrong, or if I'm like sick, or if I'm not in a good, good health, and I've had a lot of like, abusive relationships, because one part of self breast is having boundaries and having sense of well being and sustainability. And I didn't have any experience or concept of those, so they got really ignored. And at some point it got so bad that I got these autoimmune diseases, like fibromyalgia, IBS, and I started randomly throwing up for no reason. I was feeling so bad, mentally, physically, that I started throwing up, and still I had no idea what's going on. But of course, it's gotten easier nowadays. But it's not just that, Oh, I forgot to eat once. It's really like things that you could they are like really severe things. For example, one time I broke my wrist when we were skiing, but I forgot about it. I think that I fell, and then I said, like, I think I broke something, but just forgot about it because I had my crush there and like,
Unknown Speaker 47:18
there you go. I don't have
Kaisa Jauhiainen 47:23
a good enough focus to the surpress, because if there's some sexual thing, that's all I'm gonna notice. And it's my friend kind of told me in the evening that your hand looks like a potato, that maybe you should go to the doctor, like, can you avoid? And I was like, Oh, I can't. And it was just hanging in there. I didn't notice, but
Unknown Speaker 47:50
I got it,
Kaisa Jauhiainen 47:52
yeah. But afterwards, of course, I went to after ski party, and next day I was skiing again. Like, there's this kind of one David has associated it to the baba chakra God Realm. There's kind of, we are not kind of recognizing that there is an immortality in our body. It's like we are behaving like as gods, you know, just drinking and doing stuff like, Oh, nothing can hurt me and, you know, that sort of thing. Oh,
Josh Lavine 48:29
I love that way. You just said that, yeah, um, you're so, just so I really get it. Your hand was swollen, like, potato, yeah, it was you weren't my bones. Was broken. Bones broken, and you forgot about it. You didn't. You've, you've, it was not even in your awareness that that was happening, and where was your attention instead,
Unknown Speaker 48:52
on your crush, on the on the crush,
Josh Lavine 48:56
on the crush. And can you, can you describe a little more like the quality of that attention. And partly, I think it's just fascinating that that itself, right there is a really good illustration of self, Pres, blind, sexual dominant that right there. But I'm also interested in your experience of being a nine, which is a withdrawn type, and being a sexual instinct and needing to get the attention of your crush in some kind of way. Some kind of way. And it almost feels like that sexual energy of pursuing, or it has a it has an assertive quality, you know, or even, like the soldier story, there's a sort of assertiveness that is in that story that contrasts with you being a double, withdrawn trifix. And so what's your like way? What's your way in that situation? Your hands broken, your attentions on your crush. What are you doing?
Kaisa Jauhiainen 49:49
I'm the stealthy silent killer. You know, stealthy
Josh Lavine 49:53
silent killer. That is, that, that what? Um.
Kaisa Jauhiainen 50:00
I kind of have a way of maneuvering around the target. I don't, I don't go, maybe very assertively, but I go in a way that it gets unnoticed by the masses, but towards the target. It might be very direct, and I think that's part of the sexual social game. Like being in a group where you kind of have all the other people, where you are contrasting the magnetism that you have with the one person, and you are kind of maneuvering through the social thing. It's like a choreographed dance that we have. But the other ones, they are not the audience. We are the performance and the audience in it. It's kind of a form of a foreplay and the sense of immediate it has as a sexual type, it says that this has to be at rest. Now this is now life or death, like I couldn't give a fuck about my hand, but this is not the life or death situation, because this could be the love of my life, and my rest of my life might depend on, depend on this moment, and my hands like body, it hints itself. Is
Josh Lavine 51:24
that really where the mind goes like this? This could be the rest of my life. This could be the love of my is it tied to love, or is it
Kaisa Jauhiainen 51:34
Yeah? Sexual chemistry is definitely not the same as love, but it has the urgency of, yeah, being alive or death situation and love is something that you develop, I guess, our time and with the intimacy and Safety, but the sexual chemistry is something that you can kind of feel in under a second. I don't think that is love and sexual chemistry. It can cause a lot of anxiety and going really into the spiral of all the negative feelings. And that is really not love. One thing also, when I have had, like, really bad relationships and everything, is that I say I thought that the other person was the source of chemistry, but I was really making up the whole thing. I was really the source of chemistry, and in order to get the instinctual need met, I had to ignore my self press well being, and get my boundaries overstepped and like even to the lengths of being abused, because I had to be chosen by The other one to get my instinctual needs met, so I ignored all the self press. And if it's sustainable, it's sexual, social is very outwardly glamorous looking, but it's a hell like the other instincts i So, yeah,
Josh Lavine 53:28
one of the things that is really like this. It feels to me like this word boundary is really important actually. Let me just take a second because
Kaisa Jauhiainen 53:40
but I have competency fixes. So I have read so many books about boundaries that I know by heart, like I just studied, or, like, all the possible existing boundaries there could be, and now I have a coherent sense of them so I can, like, apply my knowledge, but still, I don't necessarily know if my boundary is being crossed. I might notice a month afterwards or year. I don't know.
Josh Lavine 54:18
Yeah, boundaries. Let's talk about this topic for a second because, like you were saying, self pres has a inherent sense of my boundedness, and you're missing that, and you're instinctual stacking. And then nine is the type that has the most difficult time consciously being aware of where I end in the world begins and and that's partly why I honed in on that experience of you being inside your hands. It's like, that's, you know, when an infant is discover, the first thing that an infant does is realize that it's a separate body self. It's like, I. My thumb, and it hurts, but when I bite the blanket, it doesn't hurt. And so therefore I am this distinct creature. But the nine, on some level, keeps its bound. It's like body pores open to the world. The Nine is like this sponginess that is the world is like moving through it. It's like inside it without the possibility of there being this solid, impermeable membrane between me and the world. And that's it's, I think that's part of the inner work for nines, is to establish my own boundaries, so that, for example, I'm not dependent on that thing that's outside of me, to rub my own engine. I can do it myself. That's, you might say, like one way to describe the growth trajectory of nines. And, yeah, I guess what I'm curious about is
what's inner work like for you, and what's it like to know yourself as a distinct entity, and not just to know yourself as a from an intellectual point of view, and talk about boundaries in this kind of cerebral way, but like to experience like, Oh, this is this is me.
Kaisa Jauhiainen 56:14
Yeah, that's a very good question. Most of the stories, especially the bad ones, they are like somewhat in my past, where I didn't have any idea about anything, I had kind of nuggets of knowledge that would help me. But when I got psyched a year ago, it really kind of got all the puzzle pieces together with how to work. I kind of now have a solid experience of myself, and when it's said about God, that there's this kind of immovable quality, that it's not just that what it seems like outward, because my inner life didn't have that I was like, I didn't think that I was even existing a sad, solid entity at all for most of my life. But now I have this really kind of solid touch of myself, and this kind of, it's kind of a spatial, special feeling that I have, like around myself, that even though, even though it's like double mercy, it's still a two way street, you know, that I can also affect my surroundings, instead of it's coming all coming to me, yes, yeah. I have had a lot of help with about the from the competence type comet fixes, with setting boundaries and like, just going through so much of the material. But really, as a kid, I was almost mute. I didn't have any friends, I was bullied. I didn't know how how to relate to people, because I don't know how common the sexual socialist but according to a new grammar like it wasn't even listed, because the amount is so minimal and it's a total opposite of everything else. So I didn't know how to relate to people. I didn't see the rules that they were going by. So I was alone. I was mute. I didn't speak to anyone. I didn't have friends, and
Josh Lavine 58:41
it's no wonder that you had to stab yourself in class to get yourself to be awake. I mean, it feels to me like given the given the constraints of your social context and physical context, being in a very small village going to class with all these people that were you were experiencing an active repulsion from there were no instinctual resources for you to grab onto. No,
Kaisa Jauhiainen 59:08
yeah, I was at some point so severely depressed that I spent years in bad machine that I wasn't existing. But wow, but like, that's so far behind me, because nowadays, my baseline state is that I am feeling energetic. I'm fascinated about life, because I have kind of managed to work and make adjustments that serve me. That's what I'm doing really well.
Josh Lavine 59:44
Well, that's lovely to hear well, for example,
Kaisa Jauhiainen 59:47
when I work, I listen to audiobooks that fascinate me, but it has to be stimulating enough, so I have to, like, double up the speed often times. And. It's really counter intuitive. One would think that, if you are working and also adding something, it would kind of cost more energy, but by adding this kind of very intensive, stimulating thing, it doesn't take my energy at all, or at least, I don't feel, feel like it would, because I'm experiencing the energy through the sexual instinct, not self preservation. Yeah, one thing worth mentioning is that with how the way sexual social, the social is not nearly the same than social types. When they get the hit of just being social and doing the social thing, that's not what I'm doing at all. It's like, social without sexual. It's so tiring, and I can't do it without if there's no juice. It's like, we are, like, pretending that there's some kind of wall we are going through, a conversation that has been gone through every day, probably, or there has to be some kind of truth or kind of transformation or something That gets us deeper, but mostly that is a space where most people's boundaries already crossed, in a way, but that's where I get my juice. And sexual social friendships are, they are really blurry, in a way that you might you have elements of like chemistry. I have kissed many of my friends, and we kind of sometimes joke that we are like one of us family, because the line is a bit blurry.
Josh Lavine 1:01:56
Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah. I love this bullet point you wrote here dynamics and the experience of penetration, merging self renewal and transformation. Those are some hard hitting words. Yeah,
Kaisa Jauhiainen 1:02:17
it's a sense of throwing myself into something so intensely that I want to like, uh, kind of explode and like, merge with the theme. And I want to like, I want to die and be reborn again in a way you you might not always know what's on the other side, but is something better, hopefully, and like, of course, the instinct is kind of assuming that it is better in the on the other side. That's part of the excitement that you don't know. And it's like doing something that is so ecstatic that it makes you say that, okay, now I can die in peace, you know?
Josh Lavine 1:03:17
And now I can die in peace,
Kaisa Jauhiainen 1:03:19
yeah? Because only those afraid of death who have never lived, you know, yeah,
Josh Lavine 1:03:28
what I'm tuning into in this piece of the conversation is, I love how this sort of contradicts the stereotype of nine as being afraid of states of my own activation. You know, in the sense that like nine, nine is conceived as managing energy to stay or like to suppress myself, in a sense, beneath a certain level of vitality. If I get, if I get over activated as a nine, it feels threatening. But,
Kaisa Jauhiainen 1:04:01
yeah, yeah, please continue. And
Josh Lavine 1:04:04
so here you are saying, if something gets inside you, enough that, like you know, your fascination is lit up and you are on the verge of a kind of, like, whole system orgasm, you know, the ecstasy, the ecstasy of, what, of being penetrated by this object of fascination, or sexual experience, or something like that, that feels,
Kaisa Jauhiainen 1:04:38
yeah, it's put into words, but something that I'm so immersed by the thing, and I'm so thoroughly penetrating the thing of the person, that there is no other way but to transform into something new and. It. I think part of the transformation aspect is that, in an of course, evolutionarily, when you have sex, you get pregnant, you will have a baby and stuff. That's when everything is changing. So automatically, when you are attracting sexual partners. You kind of need to have the readiness for change that everything gets all new and transforms. Maybe, I don't know.
Josh Lavine 1:05:34
Okay, that's an interesting way to put it. Yeah, do you have a sense of like? The essential quality of nine is, I like these, I like the word harmony, yeah, and there's a way that nines are seeking a state of harmony. My harmony
Kaisa Jauhiainen 1:06:00
is different. When there's a sense of danger or a desire, and I will go there, and I will go walk on the blade edge, see if I can balance right in there. Because how else would you experience the balance the most intensely.
Josh Lavine 1:06:21
I love it. I love this. And what is it? This is where language becomes blunt and problematic because it's just not adequate to explain this. But I feel like words, like feeling harmonious and walking on the blade's edge, seem, at least at a verbal level to be in contrast. But and your inner experience, there's a kind of, there's a way that when you're in that state, it is actually the place of inner harmony that you want to
Kaisa Jauhiainen 1:06:54
be. Yeah, I really don't like the stereotype about nice, that they would be really like passive or weepy or doormats, because, yeah, when it said the nine is a peacemaker, if there is an imbalance somewhere, and I can just go and make the peace happen, because it kind of has this quad call gut quality of I'm gonna like make that happen in that in the space, you know, I think, yes,
Josh Lavine 1:07:33
yes. How conscious is that for you? Or how much are you aware of actually asserting my experience of nines in the way you're describing is like their presence emanates an oceanic quality of settled body energy and, or settling and, and it's like they're they're doing something that is, or maybe they're not, or maybe they're not doing something that is itself, the thing that settles their environment, whatever. And there's a maybe a way you're saying that knives can consciously apply that superpower, yeah.
Kaisa Jauhiainen 1:08:19
Yeah. Maybe attachment also in the body. It could be a two way street as well. Maybe I don't know, but in my case, I have, well, competency types come with unfounded confidence, as well as surface blind. And I have the a twin. So there are like, three factors that would allow me to be a cell to him and be like, maybe over imposing myself,
Unknown Speaker 1:08:55
sure, yeah.
Josh Lavine 1:08:58
Also, I just realized that what I said about the settling thing is really flavored by my social lens, like, that's my experience of how nines settle a room. Yeah, and I wonder if you would put different language to it in terms of nine the settling energy and the sexual instinct.
Kaisa Jauhiainen 1:09:22
I I have a really hard time seeing, seeing, like, how it would go with the sexual
Josh Lavine 1:09:30
you know, it's, I'll, I'll get a stab at this, yeah, or you want it, please go ahead. Like the word settle. It feels inadequate. It doesn't feel quite on it. Like, my experience of your energy and sexual nineness is that it's not well, there is a settling, but it's more of like a it's it has a quality of like, why don't you come over here and rest with me on this pillow? It's, you know, or why don't we both be. Pillows together, you know, it's, it's like, come, come melt with me, yeah?
Kaisa Jauhiainen 1:10:09
Comforting, disarming, this kind of, yeah, yeah.
Josh Lavine 1:10:14
It's like, together, we'll just dissolve into liquid together, yeah,
Kaisa Jauhiainen 1:10:22
we don't need the head type, yeah. Of all the balloons, you know,
Josh Lavine 1:10:28
that's, that's maybe the harmony, I think that's, that's, that's a way to, I feel like I'm trying to, I'm not doing this potentially, but I feel like I'm trying to box this experience that you have into the language I already have, which is like nine and harmony and settling and stuff like that. But it feels like, just to do the exercise for a second, it's like the way that nine as sexual, nine is approaching or experiencing or trying to get after harmony, is that sense of like, Come dissolve with me.
Kaisa Jauhiainen 1:11:00
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think the ultimate point of harmony would be this kind of ultimate merging point,
Josh Lavine 1:11:09
yes, yes, yes,
Kaisa Jauhiainen 1:11:13
because there you go, yeah, especially if it's self pressed, blind, it's a roller coaster, because you are either kind of lighting up the fire or doing the city seducing ritual, or you are don't, but I don't have the stable thing that we usually when you are in a relationship, you kind of get into the stable phase that you don't have to do anything, And you know, no, it's there, and it's kind of built and maintained, I think. But because I didn't have an innate experience of that, that felt like it's going in a downward, downward, uh, spiral, it was going downwards in a way, right neutral. So that always was really kind of alarming to me.
Josh Lavine 1:12:07
Well, I'm looking at the rest of your bullet points here, and I'm wondering if there's anything else that you want to touch on or feels right to start closing. Where are you at?
Unknown Speaker 1:12:16
Oh, I
Kaisa Jauhiainen 1:12:16
think I have a thing about sex blinds, like sexual blind, sure. Well, what they do in the like we are as sexual types, we are doing the seduction and attraction choreography again and again and again. And I think, like sexual blinds like, okay, we can do this once and then we don't have to do it again. But for me, it's like, are you going to gym for once, and then you expect to be fit for your whole life? Like, it doesn't work like that, but I think that's what sexual blinds are often doing and for some reason they don't like this. Of course, doesn't apply to all, but I have noticed this in my own relationships, that once you have done it with a person you they don't like, want to do it again with the same person they they are going to look for it out somewhere outside the relationship. They are compartmentalizing this actual in a way that is not impacting their daily life. It's in its own tiny box. Yeah, for me, it's such a like Foundation, like it's the main experience of all of my living moments. If I'm really into someone that I don't, I can't experience really, there's nothing else in my mind. So it's weird that it just brings brings me so much loneliness to see that the other person is not impacted by me. I think the loneliness I have felt this in my relationships and often sexual blinds have this kind of thing that women can be through two things. You're either this wife material role or a piece of meat, meaning that you can be either the social role or the self press piece of meat. But many wouldn't fuck the same person they would marry, like, what's what's up with that? That that's like nature, and for me, that's the my say. Sexuality is the primary way to exist as a person, so it just gets a lot of people angry when I'm not when I'm not molded into one of the very narrow molds, and it also hurts me a lot, because in relationships, they either expect me to be one of the other and I don't want to, and I want to renew the flame, I want to renew the seduction, but usually they kind of Don't, so that's where I feel the most lonely, yeah, but now when I'm alone, I'm not so lonely, because I enjoy my company. So I guess it's better to be alone, because
Unknown Speaker 1:15:54
if I'm
Kaisa Jauhiainen 1:15:57
starting to starring of dehydration and the only available drink is poison. Would I drink it? I don't know. No, no, I'm not drinking it,
Unknown Speaker 1:16:11
you know? Yeah,
Josh Lavine 1:16:15
I'm just kind of pausing and taking in what you're saying, because I think it's really profound.
Unknown Speaker 1:16:19
Okay,
Josh Lavine 1:16:33
what's your advice for sexual blind people? There's a lot of a mother
Unknown Speaker 1:16:49
trying to
Kaisa Jauhiainen 1:16:51
find ways to be attracted by the person itself, not as a role or not, not as a consumable piece of meat, but as a person, doesn't mean in a sexual context. You can just like, sit down and look at each other, maybe not even talk. What I do with a I have a friend who is a sexual nine. We often play chess together. It's like this kind of Mind Mind Game, like who is penetrating and who is being, like subdued and everything. It requires no talking, but there still is this kind of bladeful taking turns, and it's like ping pong in but with sexual chemistry and like, how does it, how does it feel in the body? How do you notice you are attracted when they are doing something? Well, are you attracted to them? And just like really sitting with it, with the feeling, taking time with it, like, for example, women, it might take even half an hour, an hour that the body is catching up and starting to activate the erotic area so slowly,
Josh Lavine 1:18:29
wow, that chess example is really amazing, yeah, because
Kaisa Jauhiainen 1:18:33
remembering that people Are they are souls in the body. They are souls that are. Souls are magnificent. Souls are the things that are, I don't want to get too religious, but like the image of God, you know, and that is something to admire and something to worship, something that you would give your life for, something to that you appreciate and respect, and you kind of enter this celebration of joining your souls. You know, yeah, I like that.
Josh Lavine 1:19:20
That's beautiful. Yeah, I love this, this thing about chest, because it takes something that most people approach or conceive of as a very dry, cerebral exercise, and it moves it in the direction of a highly textured and rich experience of sexual tension and the slowness of one person takes a turn, and there's some impact, and another person takes a turn, and there's some impact and sensing into that at a body level, where two human beings and souls are connected, as opposed to just people's hands moving people. Is on a board is really fascinating to me. You could even take that as a whole metaphor for what a relationship is, yeah, experienced as sexual blind versus sexual dominant,
Kaisa Jauhiainen 1:20:14
yeah, with the other sexual mind we just like we are just drawing and catching ball often or playing this kind of ball game. So what? Whatever, like board games and that kind of stuff. We are not necessarily talking I think he's also head last, but we have this kind of very playful, flip and polarizing energy. And what else, it's funny, also kind of Yeah. One thing that to also think about that, where are we similar? Where are we kind of similar, that we could be made from the same origin or and where are the points that we are polarizing Well, where are we so opposite that there is kind of friction that creates energy where we can like what we can use to create this kind of attention and magnetic force of opposites attracting, yeah,
Josh Lavine 1:21:38
um, I'm thinking Maybe we'll come to a close soon, and I'm curious, how are you feeling now? And, yeah, where you're at? Well,
Kaisa Jauhiainen 1:21:52
I'm very happy I had no idea that the times already gone by, because I had actually still stuffed that I would have wanted to tell but it's fine, because there's still a lot of stuff, you know, but I feel happy. I feel relaxed and relieved that when I had so many things I wanted to share, and I finally got to share them. And I was so excited about this. And the way I kind of, my mindset about challenges is the display thing that, oh no, I finally get to enjoy the thing that I'm good about, kind of go and do my display and kind of celebrate the things that I enjoy, and let the others also see the celebration. And I don't know it's but this has been it's been so interesting going through my things. I don't I'm not sure if it made any coherent sense. Hopefully it did.
Josh Lavine 1:23:15
I think it did. I think it'll be interesting for you to watch it back and see what, what comes up from you after that.
Unknown Speaker 1:23:21
Okay,
Kaisa Jauhiainen 1:23:23
how are you feeling? I
Josh Lavine 1:23:25
feel I feel great. Yeah, it's really enjoying. I'm really enjoying talking to you, and I feel like, you know my sense is that you were saying to me before the call that my heart has a kind of expansive way it fills the room, and you were kind of vibing in that, and my experience of you is very similar, actually, although it's at this body level, so it's kind of Yeah, it's lovely To kind of swim in this cauldron here with you.
Kaisa Jauhiainen 1:24:04
Thanks. It was a very inviting space. Cool. Well,
Josh Lavine 1:24:10
thanks for doing this.
Kaisa Jauhiainen 1:24:12
Well. You're welcome, and thank you a lot for this opportunity. Yeah,
Unknown Speaker 1:24:16
you're welcome. You
