Jamie Eichar 0:00
And I think that that's the best way to describe numbness, is like this tingly white noise of just like, it sort of disrupts all senses. And so it's just sort of like this, like, it's sort of like this blockage, like, like a cloudy, sort of tingly just feeling that that starts to kind of take over, and so it makes it harder to think, it makes it harder to to act, to do anything.
Josh Lavine 0:30
Welcome to another episode of what it's like to be you. I'm Josh Lavine, your
host. Today, I
am sitting with my very good friend Jamie Eicher. Jamie and I met in my very first ennegram class over eight years ago, and Jamie's a person that I find really inspiring from an inner work point of view, Jamie we've gone through a lot of classes together, including a two year program in which Jamie really pushed through his nine passion of sloth and committed in A huge way to his inner work, and we talk a little bit about that in this episode, what that was like for him. Jamie, also, having really spent a lot of time with his own inner process, has really great language for what it's like for him when he numbs out, what his experience of anger is, what it's like for him to be in actually, let me frame it this way, Jamie has thought a lot about conversational dynamics as a nine what it's like for him to show up with such a comforting, welcoming, receptive presence, and how people often find that they can just pour themselves out in his presence, but also the experience of him getting scheme rolled by other people not wanting to interrupt them. Lot of really good stuff here, and Jamie has, as I said, great language for it, not just that, but also the process that he's gone through to start working on this stuff, what it's like for him to start expressing his anger or to confront people about conversational dynamics that aren't working for him, including some of his friendships. So really, really good stuff here, from an inner work point of view, for type nines, I think this is a really great, user friendly introductory conversation for the type nine structure, Jamie's nine this is just incredibly clear, and he's such a sweet and lovely and gentle person. And the way that he characterizes his struggle with nine sloth and numbing out, and the way that he has worked with himself, in my view, all of all the all the above, the whole package, is really beautiful and inspiring to me. So I'm really excited for you to meet and learn from my friend Jamie. One final piece of this to add is that Jamie's full typing is self press social nine with a one wing, 963, try fix. So without further ado, here is Jamie. Welcome everyone to another interview. This is my friend Jamie Iker, who I met in my very first Enneagram class in Grafton, Illinois, close to St Louis, almost over, actually, seven years ago now. And Jamie is a type nine and also a new father as of a few months ago, and a very beautiful uh. Full What's the word for this? Cinematographer, film guy, photographer,
Jamie Eichar 3:26
yeah, yeah, sure, yeah. Filmmaker, yeah.
Josh Lavine 3:28
Filmmaker, video guy, yeah. Video Guy, and, and I'm really, really excited to talk to you about what it's like to be you, and particularly what it's like to be a nine. So I'd like to start with just, how are you feeling right now?
Speaker 1 3:47
Yes, feeling more calm because we had a little offline chat where I got out my nerves, but slightly nervous at the same time and interested to to hear what, what, uh, what we're gonna get into, what we're gonna talk about. Cool, yeah.
Josh Lavine 4:11
So my favorite question to ask up front is just, I would love for you to take me on the journey of your Enneagram origin story.
Speaker 1 4:20
Yeah. Man, okay, the Yeah. So one of the things that will be hard for me is to expound and talk a long time about myself, because I don't like talking about myself. And the Enneagram origin story could be a long story or a short story, okay, but so because of the person that we both took our course from Sandy Wilder, Lauren, my wife was good friends with him, and we at one point. Point, we're having dinner with them, and they brought up the Enneagram brought out the big wisdom of the Enneagram book, and kind of mentioned like we might be this type or this type, and just sort of piqued our interest a little bit. This was probably three or four years into our marriage, and now we're seven years into our marriage, so four years ago now, and we just started diving into it, and, like looking into our types, what took the quiz and and when I discovered I was a nine, it was like, the biggest it was like someone was reading a chapter of who I was, and I've never been able to explain to people kind of like my sense of being in the world. Very much felt like I didn't fit within society in a lot of ways, but the Enneagram nine chapter was like a blanket. It was like, Oh, this is me. I was able to explain to Lauren, like, This is who I am. This is what it feels like to be me. And kind of explained actually, a lot of, like, a lot of confrontations that we had been having in our marriage and a lot of just sort of like aspects of why I was the way I was, why I was maybe zoned out during certain times, why I was maybe not as not as present, as as I wanted to be in life in general. So it was, it was very revealing. And then because of that, we had so many conversations, we started getting interested in classes. So we took the class with you, and then did the two year program, which dove into the Enneagram types, and from there kind of became, I guess, Enneagram amateurs, and use it in our day to day language. And now I feel like it's it's led me to a path of sort of like enough self awareness, to where I feel like I can use it as a tool in my day to day life, and feel like I'm actually, yeah, utilizing it in a good way. And I feel like I've, I've advanced to some degree in my life with that knowledge and been able to, I guess I would say, challenge myself to become a little bit more self aware, more present as a result of knowing the Enneagram. Yeah,
Josh Lavine 7:47
beautiful. So when you read the chapter, I loved your phrase that it felt like a blanket, yeah, yeah, which is very nice sort of color to experience it, yeah? And it's funny, because not a lot of types experience reading their type like a comfort, yeah? Like, for example, as a three, when I read the chapter on type three, it was horrified, yeah? Because it revealed these really, it revealed a lot of things that I didn't have yet accepted into my self image, right for you? It sounded like there was there was a softness and a comfort to it.
Speaker 1 8:27
Yeah, yeah. I think that partially, maybe because I'm already a self deprecating person, the things that were negative about a nine I tended to already be not aware of but, but it, it didn't surprise me. It wasn't like, it just surprised me that someone put such specific language to it, yeah, that I felt seen, and that was a shock to me, and that was just like, maybe why it was such a blanket was it was just like, wow, somebody knows me so, like somebody literally wrote a chapter about me. And I often feel so forgotten or left behind, that the fact that there was, like a chapter of a book that was so specific to me just felt so so comforting, and and really, like, made me feel like I did have a place in the world. So I think that that's why I was comforting. Also, I'm a self pres nine, so self preservation, just like, I think anything that that can bring comfort to me is, is a big thing that I tend to, you know, point out in my life, and, and that was, that was one of them, yeah, yeah.
Josh Lavine 9:46
Um, just because you brought it up. Now, I was going to ask you about this later, but can you talk a little bit about, are you willing to go into what, what is this feeling that you're bringing up, that you feel left behind? Or, um, do. Forgotten, yeah,
Unknown Speaker 10:01
yeah.
Speaker 1 10:08
So one of my modes of being, especially in, like, new social environments, is to I tend to kind of like be more fearful. I kind of don't want to ruffle feathers. I don't want to be the center of attention, especially not right away. And so oftentimes I'll be quiet, sort of as, like, a mode of being like, I'll just like, sort of shut down and fade into the background. But at a certain point I want to be noticed. You know, it's like there's, there's a desire there to be, actually, like seen and cared about. I think that's innate in humans in general. But if you're afraid to stand out, you're not going to get noticed. And tend to the sort of, the sort of the message that you're nobody special tends to get reinforced. Because if you're not willing to put yourself out there a little bit, then oftentimes you do fade into the background, and the social people will kind of all notice each other. And it's easy to sort of just fade into the background. And I think that when you had that message reinforced over and over and over, even if you're not fading into the background, you start to assume you are, and you start to kind of have this self fulfilling prophecy of like, oh, you know, nobody's noticing me. Or, you know, this person hasn't asked me a question this whole time I've been here. It's kind of a recurring theme. If we, like, go out with friends, it's like, oh yeah, I ask a lot of questions, but people don't ask me a lot of questions. Why is that? And so like, yeah, I don't I still there's, like, times where I'm, like, baffled by why I don't get asked questions. Is it like that I'm not good at talking? Is it that I'm, you know, people are just more interested in talking about themselves or what? What is it and it like just even now, it feels odd to be talking this much like this is way more talking than I typically do on an average day. This is a lot of talking. Probably feels very short for a lot of people, but feels like a lot for me.
Josh Lavine 12:32
Well, let's see. There's so many ways to go with this. Yeah, I just want to say, I just want to reassure you. First of all, it's really lovely to hear you speak. And how interesting for you to be on the receiving end of an interview, yeah, having just brought that topic up, yeah, yeah. So right this moment, actually, you're having an experience of, in a sense, the reverse of that pattern, for sure,
Speaker 1 12:58
which feels good. It's like, kind of fun. It's like, nice to be there's, there's some sense of, like, somebody cared enough to, like, think, to ask me, to be asked questions. Like, that's, that's cool, yeah, and that's also nerve wracking. And, like, not normal,
Josh Lavine 13:15
right? So there's both, right? It's, there's the yeah, there's the glow of being attended to, yeah, there's also the the sort of discomfort is terror, too strong word of being in spotlight, yeah,
Speaker 1 13:28
no, no, it's not there. There are times where it is is absolutely terrifying, and times where it's where it's manageable, right, right? And I think this is definitely more manageable, and I'm not, I'm not sure that that's true for every nine you know, it's definitely my, my unique flavor of I think there's, you know, for me in general, being the center of attention, especially in terms of speaking, has been a point of fear and pretty hard for me throughout my life. So Right? That's definitely my unique flavor of fear that comes up. Yeah, I do
Josh Lavine 14:10
think that's an important point to reinforce, too, because I know a lot of nines that are actually very, you know, they're public speakers and stuff like that. So it's not, we're not talking about a universal fear of spotlightness with the nine, but there is a sense of right with the nine, this almost willingness to fade into the background that then that then ultimately creates a self fulfilling prophecy that then gives rise to these questions that you brought up, like, Why isn't anybody paying attention to me? Why is nobody asking
Speaker 1 14:39
me questions? Yeah? Yeah, yeah, but be nice that people did,
Josh Lavine 14:45
yeah, yeah, and then that even that phrase that you'd be nice that people did, if you follow that all the way down. So one thing we talk about nines, and I'm being a little pedagogical in this moment, but one thing we we talk about with nines is their relationship with anger. Yeah. And how with nines, typically, there's a suppression of anger or a discomfort with anger. Yeah, is there? Do you experience anger behind that? That statement? It'd be nice if people Yeah,
Speaker 1 15:12
yeah for sure. In the past, I probably wouldn't have admitted that or wanted to acknowledge that, but I think that I've started to develop a little bit of a better relationship with anger. Yeah, and in some ways it's been nice to acknowledge that, because then I realized it is a frustration of mine, so what can I do about it? And then I actually start trying to speak up more or trying to, if it's a person I'm close enough with, let them know what the dynamic is, what it looks like, and and say, Hey, like I've asked you tons of questions, but our dynamic isn't really a back and forth. Can, can I? Can you ask me questions? Sometimes not maybe so plainly and direct like that, but, but definitely, there's anger there, and and anger in general has been, has been a thing where I, I've acknowledging that I am, like, have anger and have been I don't know how to like phrase this or put this, but like, I've been very angry at times in my life, and it's it's rare for people to See that, unless you're very close to me, right? Yeah.
Josh Lavine 16:45
I don't know where to go with that, but that's that's been, yeah, been true for me, for sure. Talk a little bit about the what that journey has been like for you to to express anger, or even to bring yourself to a conversation where you say, hey, this dynamic is not reciprocal.
Unknown Speaker 17:02
Yeah.
Josh Lavine 17:06
Like, what makes it hard, maybe, is the question.
Speaker 1 17:13
Well, what's interesting now is, like, knowing that that's a part of me, it's less hard to acknowledge that that's true, and I think that it's been healthy, because then I have less out outbursts of anger. There's less, like, build up. I think this is a thing for a nine where you hold back your anger, you're you assume that you don't have it, that you're just like this, like beacon of peace, and you're just gonna, like, kind of suppress it, and then all of a sudden, you get to this boiling point where things are just like, you know, you can't sort of sustain that level of like suppression anymore, and then it just like, explodes. And that was my experience, I think. And it still happens from time to time, but it was happening a lot more regularly, probably three years ago ish, and then I think there was a certain point where I just acknowledged that that type of anger isn't healthy. I mean, it got to the point where I had an outburst, where I punched a wall, I punched a hole in a wall, and I was just like, super, super angry, yeah. And something got me to that point, and it was just like, Okay, this isn't healthy. And so I started bringing it up more in therapy, started talking about it more, started acknowledging it more. And so now it's easier in little moments to be like, Oh, I feel that sense of anger. I feel that sense of frustration. Let me talk about it with Lauren. Let me talk about it with my friend, because that's going to be so much more tenable than that outburst where I punched a wall. I might as well deal with it in that little moment, because I don't want to experience that big moment again.
Josh Lavine 18:54
And then when you bring yourself, yeah, when you bring yourself to that little moment, is there that seems like a it sounds small, but it's actually a sense of radical shift, right?
Speaker 1 19:05
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I guess it's practice like it's a practice behavior, and the more I've practiced it, the more I've realized that people appreciate it. It was very scary at first. I think to bring these things up, yeah, but I think that because I'm so tactful in the way, that because I'm so afraid of like hurting someone's feelings, or like coming across as as like an angry person, I think I'm very tactful in how I bring something up. And in fact, I think I'm actually pretty gentle with, with how I approach my anger, if I'm bringing it up in in in a more specific instance, and so it actually comes out and and people appreciate what I've said. And so I Yeah, it's. Kind of becomes somewhat of a strength, which, which I like, yeah. And
Josh Lavine 20:04
this is getting to one of the things that we talk about in the high side of nine is this ability to the willingness to go against the grain, or to ruffle some feathers, or to introduce conflicts in the service of a greater harmony. Yep. So you know, the awake nine realizes that conflict is subsumed within. Is not opposed to harmony. Harmonies of right? Conflict maybe has even too strong of a word for what you're bringing up, but it's, but there's a
Speaker 1 20:32
way, yeah, discomfort, discomfort is a big word for me. In that regard. It's like it's okay to have these moments of discomfort, because ultimately, it's going to lead to a greater sense of cohesion or togetherness once you actually understand where you're at and that person can hear you and you can hear them, and that's a better place to be at, rather than the like, oh, it's no big deal. And then there's like, tension, this underlying tension, right? Yes,
Josh Lavine 21:09
the no big deal thing that's, like, sort of a classic non phrase, like, it's no big deal. Yeah. Okay, there's, I want to maybe come back to maybe come back to that a little bit. But what I want to bring up something that we talked about right before we started recording here. Yeah, I asked you, how you want it to be introduced and and I just realized that I didn't do it actually the way that you asked so the way that you was, Jamie's a nice guy. Jamie is someone who wants to be a person that people can talk to, a comforting presence and this and something else you said that was so beautiful to me was you said I would want for my legacy to be someone that you can trust. Yeah, someone, someone you trusted. Yeah, can use for sure. Can you say why that was important to you? What's, what's essential about that?
Speaker 1 22:13
Well, I think it's, it's the reason that I'm so. I'm now pursuing getting a degree to become a licensed therapist, and I think that there's this like,
Speaker 1 22:33
I don't know, I guess it feels like I'm making some sort of impact with my
Speaker 1 22:41
power as a nine when people feel like they can talk to me like it feels like
Speaker 1 22:54
I have I know that people have told me enough, and I feel this innately, that I that I am somewhat of a comforting presence, like I'm I'm a relaxing person, and I feel like the more that I am able to provide a space where people like feel people feel like they can reveal aspects of themselves, then it feels like I'm doing something impactful. And there aren't a lot of areas in life where I feel like I can actually make an impact, but I know that that's sort of like very direct and something that feels like a strength or a superpower as a nine or as myself, you know, yeah,
Josh Lavine 23:38
and this is a bit of a leading question too, but I love your phrase, your power is a nine. And it's interesting, because power is a word that we typically in the Enneagram world associate with eights, but I think that it's rightly associated here with nines too. There is a power to this quality of in classic Enneagram language, helping people land. Yeah, yeah, yeah, you know. And then emanating that, this very comforting, inclusive presence that allows people to just feel comfortable, they can just be themselves around you, there's like a, almost a magic to it,
Speaker 1 24:11
right, right, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think, I think there's like a natural ability there, and I think I'm realizing more and more that like, I may be an easy spot to land, like, it's easy to kind of come to me about something, but now I'm appreciating that there are tools now, like as a like learning to be a therapist, or learning some theory around therapy, for example, it's like, oh, now I can actually have tools to help people go deeper than just, like, that initial contact. It's like, oh, I'm a safe place. And now I can actually, like, take it further and make it a mastery, rather than, like, I'm just a nice person to talk to.
Josh Lavine 24:54
Oh, that is really cool. That's very, very cool. Oh, man, there's a lot. There's a lot there. Um, so one thing I'm pulling out of that is that this capacity to make other people, people feel comfortable for you has been a natural. It's like, it's almost a passive gift, yeah, yeah. It's, it's a thing that you haven't really given, or maybe until the Enneagram or therapy school, like, a lot of conscious thought too. It's not a skill necessarily right for you. It's right. This is just your way of being, yeah, yeah. But then therapy school is helping you, yeah, go ahead. Well,
Speaker 1 25:31
I was just gonna say yeah. I've had like, I think this has been a common experience. I've heard from other nines too, where it's like, you have sometimes you just like, meet a person, and they like, I saw I went and bought a roof rack from from a guy, like, off Craigslist, for example, and he started, like, opening up to me about his divorce, like, in like, first, like, two minutes of like, handing me the roof rack. And we just, like, had this conversation. And like, I probably said maybe, like, two things in that conversation, and like, you know, he sort of just like, open and I feel like that happens over and over, sort of in certain circumstances of just like, there must be a thing about me where people feel like they can just open up, you know, yeah.
Josh Lavine 26:15
But on the flip side, like sometimes the challenge of being a nine is being steamrolled by people who overshare and don't know and can't sense that you don't want to talk. Yes, yeah, talk a little more about that.
Unknown Speaker 26:29
Yeah.
Speaker 1 26:36
Yeah. It's something that I've started to stand up against nice but I still struggle with it. It's like, it's probably one of the main areas of, like, of frustration with with humans, is just like being steamrolled and and so I think that because that provides some sense of anger, I'm starting to maybe do something about it. But I guess an example I could give is I have a friend who is an eight who is just one of the funniest, most charismatic, confident people I know, and I love listening to this person and just I feel like it's almost as if our relationship dynamic has been I'm watching a TV show of this friend of mine, and It's so enjoyable that for a long time, I just let it, that dynamic persist, and it there were times where it was just like, This is hilarious. I love this guy. Like, he's he's so funny. He's talking and like, this is great. And then it gets to a point where it's like, oh, wait, I've forgotten like that. I don't like, I don't, it doesn't seem like I exist in this relationship, right? And and it would get to points where, like it felt like he was just talking at me, and we started to get into more like political conversations and more serious topics. And then those topics started becoming, rather than just like having this like funny fun friendship where I was like, sitting in the background, watching this person, it started becoming that person, giving me lots of advice, giving me lots of like, it sort of just felt like the steamroll of like, everything that that I need To be doing everything that I need to be thinking is what this person is thinking. And you know, we'd have conversations where I think the split would probably be like, if it were an hour of time, it'd be 55 five. And so, yeah, 55 minutes of somebody talking at you is just like, not, not fun. And it started to become a bear. And I think that that's when I started to hit my breaking point with this person. And it was a way to sort of practice these conversations of like, hey, just so you know, this is what the dynamic looks like, and this is right, hard for me and and then, yeah, I think because that person appreciates directness, I started to realize that that was actually something I should have done a long time ago. Yeah.
Josh Lavine 29:33
So take, that's a really good example to dig into for a second, the 55 five. So one thing that I understand about nines, that I hear from some nines, is that it's not just that it's difficult to sort of interrupt the flow of someone else's speech. Yeah. It's also that if I were to do that, I wouldn't even know what I would say.
Unknown Speaker 29:56
Oh yeah. Oh yeah, wow, yeah.
Josh Lavine 29:58
So it's almost. Like looking inside, and then, you know, the content of my personhood and my opinions, my preferences, what I what I might share, is just, there's a blankness. Is that something you relate to?
Speaker 1 30:11
Yes and and especially so when you have to interrupt someone, right? Because the act of interrupting someone is uncomfortable in and of itself. So it's like for me, when I'm uncomfortable, I start to shut down. So, so if this person is talking for, you know, on a 10 minute thing, and and I have a thought within that, and they're speaking very quickly, that thought comes up and I have this anxiety about it, and like, oh, I want to share something. So then I have the anxiety and I want to interrupt, but then it's like, no, the act of interrupting would then cause me some internal conflict, and by that point, whatever I need to share won't come out eloquently, because I'll be all frazzled by the act of interrupting somebody. Yeah, overwhelming and so, so then you just let it pass.
Josh Lavine 31:11
There's that whole dynamic happens silently, internal. Oh, yeah,
Speaker 1 31:14
yeah, yeah, at least for me, yeah, for sure, right? Yeah.
Josh Lavine 31:20
That's, yeah, it's fascinating to me, and it's and it also, well, maybe the question is, what helps you feel comfortable?
Speaker 1 31:34
That's a good question. I don't know that there's something that somebody has done that's uniquely made me comfortable, aside from when I noticed that somebody is also is okay with maybe a little bit of a slower pace. That's something actually I appreciate about you, Josh is is, I think that you even at the beginning of this, like you sat there and thought about something for maybe 30 seconds of silence and just like, it's like, oh, like somebody who, who actually, like works at my pace, that's nice and and so that that is nice, because then if I have a moment of like silence or thinking, I know that that person is also used to that experience, and that's really nice, but that's really hard to come by, really, really unique. So
Josh Lavine 32:33
yeah and yeah, go ahead.
Unknown Speaker 32:35
No, that's it. That's it. Yeah, I'll
Josh Lavine 32:37
just put an exclamation point by that, because, generally speaking, the pace of conversation is set by the faster person. And what a lot of nines experience is, there are some, you know, maybe faster nines, quote, unquote, but there's a delay in response. It's like, it's like the nine first test, a sense, this is also remember, nines are a body type, so it's like, and being out of touch with the body, it's like, where do this is so fascinating to me. Where do how do you know what you think? How do you know where you're what you're like, if someone asks you, What do you want for dinner? How do you know what your preference is? It comes from the body and minds in the average state being sort of diffused in the body. It's like, it takes a minute after I ask you for your preferences, to sort of recollect themselves or to to constellate themselves out of the diffusion and then to present themselves as a real preference. Yeah, yeah, for sure. So, so it's interesting, because without so there's this dilemma that comes up when relationship with nine is on the one, it's like, it becomes on the one hand. Or maybe the question it's like, what I'm exploring is, whose responsibility is it? So there's the there's the person who's speaking with you, who can create the conditions, conversationally, in which you feel comfortable by slowing down by creating space. And there's also, from from your perspective, the ability to interrupt and ask for more silence or what you need. Yeah. So how do you how do you think about that dynamic? I've seen a lot, so anything?
Speaker 1 34:18
No, no, I think that that's that's like something I've thought about actually quite a bit. I think that society as a whole tends to like it just feels like there's no stopping this sort of like train, I guess, of like, societal self importance, and I think that that comes with, like, talking about yourself and talking quickly just seems to be a part of that. And so I feel like there's just, I've it almost feels impossible. Possible to meet a person and have them say, take the responsibility on themselves and say, You know what, I noticed you're not getting a lot of talk time. So let let me pause for a minute and give you like, I don't think that I've ever experienced that. So I feel like the responsibility is on me. Like there's that anger about the conversation, and it's sort of a just, I guess, the challenge of a nine in this society, or challenge of mine in this society, to be in those environments and let people know with my like self awareness of like, this is my pace, or this is, you know, how I work best, and sort of set expectations or boundaries around conversations, especially if it's an environment that I'm in on a consistent basis that seems to be a challenge. And then if that, you know, if I present that information and people are aware of it, then I can, you know, have more, either more talk time, or like people are at least aware of the dynamic and can do something about it. But I feel like if they're not aware, people are just going to talk like it's just sort of how our society is. And so I feel like putting that responsibility on myself, whether or not that that is right is is been most successful. So
Josh Lavine 36:29
yeah, that feels like I yeah, I find myself kind of agreeing with you about it, yeah, although it also is really refreshing, like one of the one of the things that I think both of us so appreciated about the community that we were in with Sandy and the Educare space is that, yeah, the way he facilitated his classes was with this like there was so much silence, yeah, in those classes, and everybody who spoke did so volunteering themselves, but he was very trusting of the silence. Yes, you know that whatever wanted to spring out of that would come, and that's that has a whole route in Parker Palmer's work with the tradition. But
Speaker 1 37:09
yeah, yeah, I forget that. I forget, I forget how you know I it'd be nice to I think that I do speak slowly in general, and like, it's, it's something that people you know really have to be patient with, if they if they're actually willing to listen to me, like on a longer in a longer conversation. And so it's easy to forget that that silence is okay, and, like, it's something that is also uncomfortable and and if I were really, you know, having it my way in these conversations, there would be more silence, and there would be more space for that, and people would be patient enough. But the moment there is a, like, a gap, and you're talking to somebody, that gap will, like, somebody will swoop in and insert themselves. So, so it's really hard to to figure that out. But yeah,
Josh Lavine 38:12
yeah, okay, I'm gonna switch topics, yeah, um, speaking of nines in the body center. Yeah? So one thing I remember that was revelatory for you was getting into rock climbing, yeah, yeah, fitness in general, and fitness in general, sure, yeah. Can you talk about what that did for you and why that was so
Speaker 1 38:40
important, and I'd love to know, yeah, so right now, like, for me, it's, oh, there's always been some sort of like sport. So I started out as a skateboarder, then in high school as a diver and and then in college, transition to being a rock climber, and then sort of lost that, and then lost sort of fitness in general. Like there was a point in in my marriage where, you know, I was, we were just like, living our life. We had our business, and sort of got into some really bad shape in general, and and then got back into rock climbing and got back into fitness in general. And there's, I think it's easy that you're so you're you're so susceptible to numbness, or I'm so susceptible to numbness as a nine, that it's easy to almost forget about your body. To some degree sounds a little five ish, but, but it's when I started working out and when I started climbing and focusing on it more. It was easier to feel things more like I don't. Know how to explain it, but like, I'm more aware of the muscles that I that I have. And like, when anger comes in or when a feeling comes in, I can feel it more in my body, if that makes any sense, like, because I'm engaging with those muscles, it's like, oh, they exist. Yeah, yeah. And so right now for me, it's surfing, like I've kind of lost climbing, and now I'm into surfing, and that's been the new thing. And I freaking love it. It's so nice.
Josh Lavine 40:29
That's great. Yeah. So there's this, I love how you framed it to this spectrum of being numb to your body and sensations on the way over to being sort of vibrantly full of them, like noticing muscular movements and the way that anger takes root as a sensation in your body. Yeah,
Unknown Speaker 40:49
yeah.
Josh Lavine 40:51
Are you able to give some words to what it's like when you're going numb?
Unknown Speaker 40:57
Totally, yeah. I um,
Unknown Speaker 41:05
yeah,
Speaker 1 41:15
I don't know if you've experienced like you sleep on your hand and like, there's, like, you know, you'd start to lose the feeling in the hand, but there's that little tingly sensation around it, the tingliness. To me, I've described it that, like, tingliness as white noise, okay? And I think that that's the best way to describe numbness, is like this tingly white noise of just like, it sort of disrupts all senses. And so it's just sort of like this, like, it's sort of like this blockage, like, like a cloudy, sort of tingly, just feeling that that starts to kind of take over. And so it makes it harder to think, it makes it harder to to act, to do anything that's more specific to like, fear shut down for me, at least, there's also numbness in just sort of like, you know, for me, a big thing is, is like watching, I'm sure this is thing for a lot of nines, is like watching or being on the internet in some capacity, like watching YouTube videos or going on Instagram and scrolling for a long time, that sort of numbness, almost. Is closer to just feeling like you don't exist, like forgetting you're there entirely. Yeah, and that, that one is like you're absorbed in whatever content you're in. And it's nice, because you you avoid a lot of feelings and avoid a lot of it's definitely a way to avoid hard problems in your life, is to escape into those spaces and and so that one's like, yeah, just completely, sort of like, gone, I'm I become the iPad or the TV screen or something like that. Wow,
Josh Lavine 43:18
yeah. That's a really powerful phrase, yeah. And can you talk? Are you willing to share a little more about, like, what it's like when you go down a YouTube rabbit hole or, or just yeah, like, if I were watching you, what I'd be seeing, I
Speaker 1 43:34
haven't thought about it that way. I
Speaker 1 43:48
I think I'd be like, yeah, so YouTube rabbit hole is pretty it's pretty common, especially if I'm, like, avoiding a work project or something like that, and I'd be at my desk on the algorithm, like, you know, it's like, designed perfectly for, for a nine, you know, you'd see, you'd see me sitting there, sort of just like sitting back watching a video, very like, focused on it, engaged in it. But like, messy desk, messy sort of it feels, it feels like that somehow, like is like, you know, I'm avoiding lots of like, if I have a messy desk, and I'm avoiding that, if I have a messy house, I'm avoiding that, but that would be the first thing I'd go do if I were to start being productive, start feeling productive, is start cleaning rather than doing the task that I need to do. Okay? But then, yeah, like, you know, another video pops up that's correlated. Or you just go back to the YouTube home screen and they've got something that's there that's just another. Or layer of like, Oh, that's interesting to me. And I'm always telling myself, this is the last video I'm going to watch, and then I'll go back to the home screen or click through. There's like a cycle. And I'm sure this happens to a lot of people, but you have like, a cycle of apps or things that you go through, and you kind of reset yourself back to where you were, and you start the whole cycle back over, and it feels like just sort of this autopilot of like, Oh, here's Instagram, here's a news site, here's whatever. And then, and I'm back to Instagram and or back to YouTube and watching new videos and starting the whole process over. It's, very numbing, and it's one of the things that I think that is hardest for me to overcome as a nine or hardest for me to stop doing like. I just it's so frustrating for me, and there's a sense of like. I guess depression is the right word for it, like, like, it's like, it's depressing to see myself in that. And I think that that then probably perpetuates more of it, you know, more of that behavior. And, yeah, always, always having to figure that one out. It's something I talk about in therapy, for sure.
Josh Lavine 46:22
Yeah, I'm hearing or go ahead.
Unknown Speaker 46:24
Yeah, good. No, no, I want to hear what you hear. I was
Josh Lavine 46:26
hearing too. Just a kind of the rhythm of it, the like, the cycle of apps and stuff, that's yeah, which is a kind of body term. It's like getting stuck in just this, yeah, this feedback loop. Have the words for it, but my body is like, I get it, and I've been there also, yeah, yeah. So I think maybe we've all been there. So, yeah,
Speaker 1 46:49
yeah. I think that that's like a lot of nines. I know, you know, fall into that trap very easily, but I feel like that is also very human now, with how accessible entertainment is in consumption is, it just feels like it's, you know, a problem with society in general. But yeah,
Josh Lavine 47:11
so what's your relationship with, for lack of a better phrase, doing the task you're supposed to do.
Speaker 1 47:22
I a very negative, yeah, just just the the one that I have that I mean, that is what causes that this, this, like internet addiction. This, like YouTube addiction or Instagram addiction, whatever it is, I have a history of like, and it's, you know, it's easy to put this on other people, but I have a history of sort of rebelling against the thing that needs to be done. It almost feels like I'm, like, actively rebelling against what I need to do. Yeah, someone tells me what I need to do, it becomes even more of an active rebellion. But if it's myself, it's easy to fall into this, like, YouTube loop. But if somebody telling me to do it, it's like, even more. So I just want to, like, do the opposite and and if I were to go down why that is, I would assume that it's like, you know, it's, it's an uncomfortable feeling that I am really trying to actively avoid, and there's also some sense of control around rebelling against it. I think rebelling in general has been something that has been a big part of my life, and I feel a little bit more in control when I'm rebelling for some, some reason. But yeah, once I'm able to get started on something, I can see it through. But it's the act of getting started that is the hardest, right? And there's a lot of overwhelm and frustration around the act of getting started on a project, and, like, anxiety, and it's uncomfortable, and I almost just sort of have to, like, shake myself to get something done, and and I'll be ruminating on that, that to do item for, sometimes days, even weeks, and it gives me moments of panic in my life. If there's, I don't know if you've ever experienced like that person you haven't texted back or something like that and like but. You know, you need to text them back. And then you like, like, have this like, moment of panic, like, oh, I need to text this person back. And then, like, that's also a trigger to, like, not do it, because somehow, like, you're uncomfortable about the fact that it's been so long, or something like that. And, you know, I mean, that's a very specific example, but, but that's something that comes up often. If I've, like, avoided an uncomfortable text, or I have to, like, let somebody down or explain myself in some way, I often avoid it. And then work tasks in general, like, there are work tasks that I hate, or it's been a really, really big challenge, because I think that work in general is something that helps me advance in life and and would I'm grateful that I have a partner who is so go getter and work focused that balances me out so much that I've been able to, You know, in some ways it's been hard because I've had, I've been rebelling against, you know, my partner telling me something to do, but in other ways, I think it's been really good because I see an example of somebody who's a doer and a hard worker, and I'm more inspired by that energy. And so that's been very helpful for me in that regard. And so yeah, that's, yeah, that's, that's work tasks in general, is just not, not an area that I have a good relationship with yet.
Josh Lavine 51:36
And this, this word rebellion, is really interesting to me too, because that's another word that we would typically associate with, something like an eight. But there is, with all the body types, this fundamental core need of autonomy. You know, I want to do things in my I want to do like for and for eight, there's a real obviousness and assertiveness about that. But for the nine, they they seek autonomy by withdrawing or this. This is the sort of textbook, yeah. But there's a way, like, I want to do things on my own time, my own rhythm. And if you tell me what to do, there's, like, this exquisite sensitivity to pressure. No, yep. So yeah, that was really, I that was really evocative the way you shared all that. And I have a general question for you, yeah, what gets you going?
Speaker 1 52:37
Well, I mean, like I mentioned surfing earlier, and I, like, felt my, like, excited, happy energy. I really do get motivated by, like, problem solving. I think that that, you know, that's why climbing, that's why surfing, that's why. What's the phrase like, something like, I'm good at a lot of things, but I'm the master of none. I feel like I get excited by, like, like, I, you know, I'll learn the guitar up to a certain level, and then I'll kind of stop. I'll learn surfing up to a certain level. I'll learn climbing up to a certain level, and then I'll stop. So it's like, I get excited by, like, the idea and challenge of something and and I kind of get really, like, into it, like, kind of hardcore, and then all of a sudden I'll hit, I'll hit a plateau, I guess, with anything, and then won't take it further. And I don't know what that's about, but, but that seems to be kind of a pattern in my life, and kind of the thing that I've taken the furthest in my life is photography, because of making it a career. And I do think, excuse me, I do think creativity is a part of all of that. Like, I think that there's I get really inspired by, like, beautiful settings. And I think the reason video attracts me so much is like, there's something about watching something that's like, very peaceful and beautiful that, like, when I make a wedding video, for example, I feel like I'm waking making a wedding video that would, I would connect with emotionally. And so I love that. And like, I love getting to that end result and feeling like, oh, like, this is, like, emotional. It's relaxing, it beautiful. I think the same thing with surfing, it's like, relaxing, it's beautiful. It's that setting I kind of think visually and creatively when I'm in sort of, like.
Speaker 1 55:01
Like, those settings and so, yeah, I don't know it feels like a little bit of a smorgasbord of, like,
Speaker 1 55:11
what gets me going, but I think it's like creativity and and, and then connecting, like, athletically to something so something in those in in those areas, yeah,
Josh Lavine 55:23
and I'm also hearing your self presence too, a little bit, and I've seen it in action, actually. So first of all, I've seen what you've what you create. And you create really beautiful stuff. It's really, really cool. You create. Yeah, you're very, very talented at what you do, and I appreciate it. And one of the things that, well, actually, one of the things that, because when I stayed with you guys in California, one thing that I thought was fun to get out with you about was all of your gear and how, like, you have your spot for everything, you know, yeah, he likes research backpacks and things like that, yeah? But like, there's a way it's almost like, it's like each lens has its own little cozy spot, you know, yeah,
Speaker 1 56:13
yeah, yeah. You know. That's, I will admit that that is probably because you were there visiting, and you know, if you weren't there, things would be a lot more of a mess. But I do then get stressed out about the mess and want things to be back in their order, for sure, and it's much more comforting to have everything in their place.
Josh Lavine 56:43
Yeah. And also, maybe we're hearing a little bit of one wing there too,
Speaker 1 56:46
yeah, oh yeah, yeah. I think a pretty, pretty strong one wing.
Josh Lavine 56:50
Cool. I'd like to end with one other exploration, and it's around the word empathy gets thrown around a lot with nines, and I'm curious how you experience being empathic. Do you feel like an empath?
Speaker 1 57:10
Yeah, yeah, I had a yes. I feel like an empath, very much so. And for a while, it felt out of my control to some degree,
Speaker 1 57:31
in that like if someone was emotional in a certain setting, especially in like our sort of the course we took, if I saw somebody getting emotional, I wouldn't be able to stop the tears. It would just be like, holy crap, like I'm seeing this, like powerful emotion, and I just, like, feel so empathetic, and I've started to, I think probably because of, like, the group therapy environment, started to realize that sometimes that can it's not necessarily always. I've started, I guess maybe to be able to control it more to some degree, if that makes any sense, in that like, I still feel empathetic, but I'm also more trying to be present with the person and listen rather than get caught up in the emotion. If that makes sense, I feel it felt very easy to get caught up in people's emotions, and it felt good, because I didn't feel emotions as much. And so it felt like I was like, sort of like absorbing some emotion and getting to feel things for the first time, and now that I've had enough of that experience, it feels like there are still things that catch me off guard, and I do that, but it's more about like, hearing a person's experience and really getting to the bottom of people's experience in which I'm using my empathy a little bit more to like, yeah, explore and understand people better.
Josh Lavine 59:11
That's amazing. And one way just, I'm gonna put it in my own words, just so I understand it. Yeah, you tell me. If I'm right, it's almost like when you say that your empathy was almost out of your control, it was like, I'm almost imagining. It's like, you're, well, we use the word merge a lot, sometimes with not, yes, yeah, merge with this other person's experience. Yep. Like, where I end and where they begin isn't really clear. Yeah, there's a kind of, there's a fluidity of boundary here. And so their their emotional experience, affects me in a deep way, you know, in a way that I can't really control, because the boundary is not up. It's very porous. Yes, yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. And so part of we talk about with with nines, the growth path for nines is, and you. Said it very beautifully in your own language, is like, what is it like to shore up those boundaries and realize I'm over I'm here, they're over there, yes, yeah, right. And then being able to use empathy as a this is too blunt a word, but as a tool, as opposed to a kind of almost being taken for a ride by it,
Speaker 1 1:00:19
yeah, yeah, yeah. It's not, it's not very like in pursuing therapy, it wouldn't be very useful if I just got caught up in people's emotions all the time. And so it's, yeah, it's been nice to to not have that be an overwhelming experience when, especially in, you know, in circumstances where somebody's getting emotional about a very heavy topic, to be able to have presence and know how to how to handle it is, is is nice, but it's still still a challenge. And I find myself getting still caught up in it. And I think that another experience where I think nines probably the reason nines watch a lot of content. Like, I was very into movies for the longest, like, obsessed with watching movies for a very long time, because it was, it was that same sort of thing where I would just get absorbed into the emotion of the film, or something like that, and get lost in it, and that was nice, right?
Josh Lavine 1:01:25
And there's a niceness, yeah, that's, and that's the Yeah, that word nice, it's, it's come up a lot, right, yeah, in this conversation. And what's interesting to me, too, is it's come up a lot in the in the context of, like these ways that you are, in a sense, numbing out. Well, that's a strong word, but it's like, it's nice to get lost in a movie, it's nice to get lost, yeah? Cause experience, it's nice to be there's a niceness, even to a YouTube rabbit hole, right? There's a comfort, yeah? It's like a blanket, right?
Unknown Speaker 1:01:58
Yeah? Yeah, yeah.
Josh Lavine 1:02:01
So, in a sense, I want to, I want to round out this interview just by saying we've spent a lot of time, and I so appreciate your really beautiful capacity to self reflect on this. Sure, I also, in a sense, find that one of the things that we didn't really foreground here is you for example, in our two year program, remember how you you won?
Unknown Speaker 1:02:28
Yeah, yeah.
Josh Lavine 1:02:30
So we've talked, we've talked a lot about and I think it's very useful for people listening the the ways that you numb out, or the ways that you have us you struggle with doing what you're supposed to do, those kinds of the rebellion stuff. But there's also part of you that really is has this incredible capacity to commit to stuff, and when I mean just for everyone listening, what I mean one is we were invited in this two year program to take on practices for our own self development. And there were 12 people in the program. And Jamie, you did, I mean, you, you took on a lot practices and really stepped out of your comfort zone there in a significant way for a long period of time.
Speaker 1 1:03:13
Yeah, you know, yeah, yeah. Go ahead. Well, I was gonna say the other thing that I think has been a reoccurring theme in that regard, is when I was a diver, for example, I got most improved diver. And it felt, kind of felt like that in the Enneagram course, like, like that felt like, like I got the most improved award at the end of the, you know. And I feel like I hear that from my friends, like, wow, Jamie, like you've grown so much in the past few years. Like it's so cool to see. And I feel like that's sort of like, like, it's, it's, maybe it sounds nine to me, because I come in, sort of like, under the radar to some degree, and like, in the background. And then the more I get comfortable in an environment, and the more that I'm able to lean into what's going on I feel like, then I'm engaged. And it's easy to see me go from whatever zero to whatever it seemed like was the end of that, course, and so that, I don't know if that's unique to me or if that's a nine thing, but, but it felt like some sort of like, more like a most improved award. Okay, yeah, huh, that that's that's how I interpreted it, at least internally, yeah, yeah. What? What
Josh Lavine 1:04:45
is it like for you to own your coolness?
Unknown Speaker 1:04:53
Does that exist? I.
Speaker 1 1:05:00
Yeah, it's scary. It's scary sometimes because I'm afraid of arrogance, and I think that that's something that comes with a one wing of judgment, and, you know, that's a whole nother can of worms. But I tend to judge arrogance, and there's a fine line of like, confidence and skill and and arrogance and coolness, and I don't want to come across arrogant, probably because I judge it and and so, so there's fear around it, and I'd like to, you know, there have been small moments of embracing it a little bit more, and I think it comes across, like, maybe in some of the ways I dress, for example, it's like a shoe that might be a little flashy, or something like that, like, I think it's cool, and I've got this Certain taste. But like in the past, I'd be afraid to wear that shoe or this cool coat. I have this coat that's like, a it's different colors, and it's this, like, what is the material? Called corduroy. It's a corduroy jacket, and it's like, got these different colors on it. And then, like in the past, I would never wear it because it's a little too like out there, and people would notice me, you know, but the more I developed a relationship with being okay, with being cool, I guess the more I'm like, willing to wear that jacket out in public. And it's such a funny, such a funny thing to like talk about, but it's true. It's just like, you know, kind of baby steps into like, Oh, it's okay to like, be noticed a little bit that that's like, a whole nother topic, but like, yeah, for a long time I wanted to wear, and I still do wear whatever is like, least noticeable, like or like, what is simple and like acceptable And in high school, man, like that was like, you know, major, major thing for me, it was like, blend in, blend in, blend in. And now it's a little bit more comfort with standing out and expressing myself. So cool.
Josh Lavine 1:07:14
Yeah, I have a I have a sense as a my three ishness is like wanting to cheer lead you in that I just feel, yeah, yeah. I think maybe I'll just, we'll come to a close here in a second. I'm just, I'm thank you for doing this interview. And yeah, yeah, I think you're welcome. I think so highly of you. And I think you know your your presence really does have that effect on me, particularly as a three, as an assertive tight, as someone who sort of has a going, going, going, kind of energy when I'm with you. You, you definitely have that nine quality of inviting me into that calming landing place. Even even on this call, I'm experiencing it. And, yeah, so I just, and I love that you're going to grad school to become a therapist. I just think it's well,
Speaker 1 1:08:09
it's not, it's not, for sure, yet, I have yet to get in, you know, fingers crossed that I get accepted. If I don't, then, you know, there are other programs, but this is the one I want to do for, you know, cool. So we'll see.
Josh Lavine 1:08:21
So last question is, what has this What's this like for you now on the on the tail end of the interview, having been basically in the spotlight being asked questions,
Speaker 1 1:08:35
it's nice, because I feel like there, I've been able to articulate myself in ways that I feel satisfied with. If that makes sense. You know, I think that when you have the experience of going through something, and you come out the other side, and you constantly are sort of like analyzing, Oh, should I have some said this better, said this differently. I feel like there's a certain point in the interview where I felt like I got into a rhythm of being able to articulate my thoughts, and so that was nice to experience that and have the space. And I think you provided an environment that was safe and comfortable for me to do that. So I feel successful, and that feels really nice. So thank you for that. Thank you for for dealing with my like little anxiety attack there at the beginning, and and just like, yeah, being so graceful with your with your tact, and in having me on welcome, yeah? All right, brother, thank you, yeah, yeah, thank you. Really appreciate it. Yeah, I feel seen and appreciate having the nine perspective heard. It's a really
Josh Lavine 1:09:54
important one. It's a really important one. Yeah, it's true. All right.
