Emma Scott 0:00
Anxiety. For me, it really is just this baseline, like, heightened, heightening, of, like, the nervous system or something like that. Like, I wake up every morning and I'm just like, on and I'm thinking about stuff, and I know everybody doesn't work that way. And I'm like, you know, it will be like, 30 minutes into the day, and I'm over asking my husband, like, have you thought about this and what you know? And I'm just like, about this, like, he's like, I just woke up.
Josh Lavine 0:34
Welcome to another episode of what it's like to be you. My name is Josh Lavine, your host, before we get to the interview today with my friend Emma. I want to make a really important announcement, personal announcement, that my friend John and I have been working on an Enneagram school, and we have officially launched it. It is officially launched the Enneagram school.com and go check it out and read what we've written on our website. There's some fresh content on the Enneagram there, and we have our very first ever class that we're offering this January 19, which is a Thursday. It's a four Thursdays in a row, Zoom class, starting at 6pm Eastern Time. And we're going to be talking about, well actually we're going to be we're going to be presenting a new, fresh perspective on the centers of intelligence and also object relations. And we're also gonna be doing inner work practice together. We're really, really excited about the school. We think that the school, we're hoping for, the school, to be a place where a community of sincere seekers can come and really learn and take the Enneagram seriously and take their own inner work seriously. And so we're gonna be offering classes like this, stay tuned for things like retreats or study groups or more. So if you're interested, check out the school, the Enneagram school.com, and sign up for our class starting this January in a couple Thursdays. Thursday January, 19. Okay, to the interview. My guest today is Emma Scott. Emma is a social self pres six, wing 7612, try fix. She is a mom. She's also a professional Enneagram coach. And she also has her own podcast called there are no tangents, where she and her friend Lisa discuss topics that go beyond the mundane in an effort to get to the heart of what it means to be human in an unscripted, humorous and open hearted way. I loved this conversation with Emma for a lot of reasons. The My first favorite reason is about 20 minutes into the interview, we have a really interesting discussion around the word people pleasing. And I think a lot of sixes have a self concept of being a people pleaser, but this really interesting tension of being both an attachment type and a reactive type is what we explore, where Emma in her in her self deprecating sense of humor, kind of words, says that she will go along with what people are wanting, but she'll also throw a stink about it. So we explore people pleasing a lot, and the conversation itself actually revealed some really important insights for me about the way that we use words and how blunt of an instrument language is when we go into describing her in her world. And my favorite part about that part of the conversation was actually Emma's openness to inquire into herself in the moment, you actually get to see her incorporate a new insight about herself that is somewhat fundamental in real time, and in later in the episode, we talk about what it means to be present in the mental center. And we're kind of both kind of groping around in the dark for language around describing that, but actually, it occurred to me that Emma demonstrates that really beautifully here in her level of openness to incorporating this insight, a moment that I glossed over in the interview itself. That I want to call your attention to is when Emma says that she just how important it is for her to be a part of something like this. And I'm calling that out, not to bring the spotlight back to myself, but to call out how important this emotion is for sixes, the feeling of devotion or of participation in a cause or a thing or a project that is bigger than them. And as a three, I always find it so inspiring how sincere this is for sixes. And, yeah, just like the actual, how much emotional juice there is there to be, to be involved in something, to contribute to something, to participate in something. And so really appreciate Emma for bringing it up. And wanted to call it out here. This is a really great interview with with a really lovely Enneagram six. And so without further ado, please welcome my friend Emma. Welcome everyone to another interview. I am really excited to be with my new friend Emma Scott. Today, Emma is a type six with seven wing. And actually, why don't you start by just giving us your. Full typing,
Emma Scott 5:01
okay, social, self, Pres, six, wing seven, tri, fix 612,
Josh Lavine 5:10
right, okay, and, yeah. How are you feeling right this moment?
Emma Scott 5:17
Say that again.
Josh Lavine 5:17
How are you feeling right this moment,
Emma Scott 5:19
right at this moment, a little bit nervous, a little bit excited, which is pretty typical for me, yeah, but a little more grounded after we just got to do our little exercise there. So, yeah, cool.
Josh Lavine 5:39
Let's see. I want to ask you about your Enneagram origin story in a second. But what I'd love to do, actually, is just talk about how we arrived today, and what your night was like last night, and and just the here's so I love sixes for how honest they are about their feeling states. And when he showed up, you just admitted, admitted right away that you were nervous. And can you, can you talk about your journey leading up to this conversation just in the last couple
Emma Scott 6:23
hours? Yeah, sure. Okay, so, yeah. But you know, if I tell you exactly like how I'm feeling, and if I make myself look a little bit vulnerable, like I won't be attacked, right? So, like, everybody will take it kind of easy
Josh Lavine 6:39
on me. Oh, that's fascinating. That's okay. That's I love that. Go ahead. Yeah.
Emma Scott 6:42
You know, it's like, well, I hold myself to such high standards, but if I can kind of be like, Oh, I'm nervous, you know, it kind of gives me a little bit of wiggle room in terms of, hopefully, how people will receive what I'm about. Yeah. Okay, yeah. So, yeah, both of my children, woke up in the middle of the night last night, and I so therefore, then I ended up being up for like, several hours, and I was trying to get myself back to sleep, because I knew I had this interview today. And I'm like, This is so typical, but, you know, let it go, ride that line to nine and just let that shit go. And so then, yeah, so woke up just feeling a little bit like out of sorts and trying to get grounded, and, you know, get my mind in the right space for today and all that kind of stuff. And, yeah, and also just, I think, in that, like, it's been even bringing in the last few weeks, it's just been a lot of stuff going on and a lot of changes, and a lot of, yeah, just a lot of input. And so I'm at that point where I can feel like, Oh man, I really hope I don't like cry on this episode. You know, just kind of feeling slightly emotional in that way as well. But here we are, we've we've made it. So,
Josh Lavine 8:14
yeah, as far as I'm concerned, whatever happens is fine. Okay, yeah. So, okay, let's talk about your Enneagram origin story. So how did you find it and what drew you to it? And leading up to the moment that I know you just did your official typing with enneagrammer, and had a little surprise there too, right with your one fix, yeah, so just take us on the journey.
Emma Scott 8:40
Yeah, well, I probably discovered the Enneagram about seven years ago, but have been seriously, you know, studying it, putting it into practice, and all those sorts of things for probably the last six years. I, of course, was introduced take this quiz, you know, you know, by a friend originally, and I didn't know what it was, so of course, I took it. And then, because I didn't think that was the right type, I took a different one as only a six would Okay, still didn't get the right type, but, um, yeah, but it just, it really fascinated me, because I've always been into psychology and that kind of stuff, and personality and all those sorts of things. But there was something about, I don't know, just the way that the Enneagram, it kind of holds those parts of ourselves, the shadow sides of ourselves that we may want to keep out of view from ourselves and others. And I really like how it kind of brought those out and showed me things about myself that I hadn't realized before. I really liked the way that it kind of helped me to make. Sense of some of the other relationships in my lives, my life too. So I don't know. I just found it's, it's really enhanced my life in a lot of ways, bringing in more compassion, again, both for myself and for other people. So yeah, yeah. Just really, what started off as a hobby, people probably felt like I had, like, a part time job just in, like, deep diving the Enneagram, like, yes, you know, reading tons of books and listening to all the podcasts, and then having to essentially relearn so much stuff after I found the Enneagram and, you know, B, A, G, and all that. So, yeah. So then, I guess, is that pretty good, and then I can chat about, yeah, typing revelation, yeah, go ahead, yeah. So, you know, he were like, you need to, you need to be typed if you're gonna be on the show. Yeah. I wanted to do it anyway, but obviously I was stalling. So it was, it was the little gentle nudge I needed. I was like, okay, cool, now an excuse to actually do this. So yeah, got typed and a fully expected it to come back as some variation, maybe not this exact order, but like a Bermuda, like a 693 was the top, and then it was actually, and I don't know if I'd already done my video at this point. I can't remember the exact timeline, but it was around the time that your type interview, a type two interview had come out with Nicholas, yeah, and I listened to that like three times, and I was like, now it makes sense, because I was like, something about this is like, why is this, like, really, really hitting home for me. So it was at that point I started to consider maybe a two fix a little bit more strongly. So I wouldn't have been surprised with some combination of 269, or 369, but when it came back as 612, I was really surprised at the one fix, mainly, yeah, but the two fix a little. So
Josh Lavine 12:24
what was it about Nicholas's interview that hit you?
Emma Scott 12:30
I so many, I think I was probably chalking it up to the fact that you all are both because he's, is he also social self pres, he is, yeah, okay, and you are as well I am. And so I was thinking, most likely, I was like, I think that's probably my stacking. So I was thinking, Oh, wow, I'm really resonating with, you know, probably what you all have going on with, like, instinctually and stuff like that. I don't, I don't know specific. I mean, I do know specifically, but there were so many specific points in that interview that I think, and I, you know, I don't know that I could like quote anything he said directly, and he said everything so much, you know, more eloquently than I could ever like relay, but the idea of just feeling as though, like you're loving, you're caring, your heart is open, when in reality, it's it's kind of untouchable, or something like that. Like there was something about that. Because even before I heard that interview, this has been, like, a couple of years ago. I had this sort of, I don't want to say vision that makes it sound more like spiritual than it was, but I just had this like image of, like, I've always seen myself as very open and very welcoming. I want people to feel welcome and warm and at home in my presence. And so I think I've also struggled a little bit with like boundaries. And you know how you'll hear about boundaries all the time, you know, just being a people pleaser, those sorts of things. So I think I had this sort of image of like, Wow. I think my boundaries out here are really, really diffuse and loose, but the boundary around my heart is like, not it is steel or something like that. And so I brought this up, like in a therapy session a few years ago, a couple years ago, and I think my therapist said something like, yeah, it's almost like, maybe we need to work on firming up these boundaries, and then you can kind of make this boundary a little bit like, more. Diffuse and not so steely. Yeah? So anyway, something about the way he described like his heart being touched, I think really resonated.
Josh Lavine 15:16
Yeah, I'm struck by a couple things, what you're saying. First of all, the distance that you put the body boundary was out here, and the heart boundary was a lot closer to home. I just found that interesting, and rings true for me, also experientially, and I'm, I'm really curious about your experience as having diffuse, kind of loose body boundaries and the people pleasing nature and having a one fix instead of a nine fix. So, so I wonder. I also notice in your body language a lot of precise hand movements and a kind of, yeah, you know, this, this move, you know, is like happening a lot, yeah, I just want to make you as self conscious as possible now, yeah, yeah, yeah. Can you talk about so I get why you thought you had an iron fix, and are you convinced that you have a one fix, and what does it mean for you? And how are you seeing it? Yeah,
Emma Scott 16:26
I'm pretty convinced, as convinced as a six can be right. Like, I'm like, I'm 99% because, like, what if, like, I could be wrong, right? Sure someone else could be wrong. But, yeah, I definitely see it more. And it is, I think it has a lot to do with what you were just describing. Like, when I went, went back to watch, like, after I got my typing back, and then I was like, let me see why they saw the one, you know, and I watched my video, and it was, I was like, and so I was like, Yeah, I think it has a lot to do with I can see the one more in. I was talking to a friend about this recently, and I was like, Okay, I as, like, six, wing seven, and I'm also a Gemini, which I don't really totally know what that means, but I do know it means they can be very verbose, right? I'm kind of like, but the one fix is, like, I want to say it just this way, though you have all these things, but you need to say it this way, you know. And I will do that even in like coaching sessions when as as the client, or in therapy sessions where I'm like, so it's like, and I have to pause, and I have to get it just right. And, you know, I'm always being told, like, just say it like, just figure it out. Just put it out there. And I'm like, well, but I want to say it in the right way so that you so here's where the people pleasing comes in. Because if I say it in such a way that it's not exactly the way I want that person to receive it, potentially to see me, for me to be represented, and it doesn't come out right, then I might be giving that person access to they're going to make assumptions about me. Now they might judge me. Now they may think something about me that's not true, and I might end up being misunderstood. So it's like if I can manipulate and kind of form the exact way I want to say something or whatever, I can almost manipulate the emotional response of the other person because I want to, I don't want a disruption in the relationship.
Josh Lavine 19:02
Yeah? And I'm struck by, I mean, so you talk a lot with your hands and a lot Yeah. And I am really struck by the definitiveness and the precision of your emotions. There's a there's a, let's see if I can articulate this. I experience your verbal processing happening in the style of six, where you're considering possibilities, you're trying you're searching for the answer. You're kind of figuring it out on the fly. But there's a way that your body language is constraining it within a certain Yeah, kind of it's like lines or boxes, you know, and things go in acupuncture, precision places,
Emma Scott 19:45
yeah, yeah, that that really, that really rings true. And I knew I was a hand talker, but it wasn't until I put the one fixed lens on it that I realized how much I do just what you just described. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And I, you know, I thought I was like a nine wing one, yeah.
Josh Lavine 20:08
I have other questions too about how your one fix operates more globally in your life, not just in terms of your verbal processing or the way that you articulate yourself. But want to table that for a second, can you, I am really interested in the way you're using the word people pleasing, because I think there's a lot of different ways to be a people pleaser, and the word people pleasing is one of those blunts catch all words that is just it needs to be unpacked in the because there you can relate to the word people pleasing from people pleasing from a lot of different type perspectives. Yes,
Emma Scott 20:45
absolutely. So
Josh Lavine 20:45
what does it mean for you when you were, when you are or you have been a people pleaser?
Emma Scott 20:55
I think it has to do with, of course, I'm trying to think of the exact right way to word this,
to a Okay, bringing it out wider in a more general sense, it is sort of the idea that that person's needs, goals, wants, take precedent over mine. So in that sense, that's, like more of the broader way it might show up in my life. Yeah, um, but like a little bit more specifically would be, it's people pleasing, but it is, and I could probably done in that six way of like, not wanting to receive any kind of backlash or something like that, if that makes sense. So again, if I can show up perfectly, and I don't really mean that, because I don't think there's. But if I can show up as the best version of me, if I can make sure I'm kind of catering to what that other person would want or expect from me, then they will be pleased, hopefully, right? And that's my mindset. I don't know that. I mean, you can't have everyone like you, but an example. So, yeah, like, I keep talking about therapy, but I that's just, that's one place that I've I feel like I've noticed it showing up and it should not be there.
Josh Lavine 23:10
Like, okay, this is good, yeah, yeah, yes.
Emma Scott 23:16
Or even whatever, somewhere where I'm like, a client, but as a coach myself, I'm like, if I bring up this stuff, it's troubling me, or I'm struggling with whatever that person might form an opinion about me, Like, why is she a coach? She's not cut out to be a coach. Clearly, you have a lot more issues to work through. Yeah, so I am, as you said in the beginning, just like I want to be like, here's what it is, blah, but sometimes there is still a level deeper, you know. I um, that because I can be so guarded, and because I am trying to see if I can trust this person I may not fully open up to. And so that's kind of an example that I can think of, just trying to be kind of seen in a in a certain in a certain way, so that I'm not judged, or whatever
Josh Lavine 24:26
that's I like the story, but I don't quite get how that's people pleasing, or how are you is that? Is that your, are you calling that a people pleasing story,
Emma Scott 24:38
kind of and it may not be like that may not be a very good example, to be perfectly honest with you. So that might be something different. But well,
Josh Lavine 24:48
let me my interpretation of it is that you're
actually, let me put it this way. We. When you use the word people pleasing, I was thinking that you it would be something on in the direction of, oh, well, you know, I don't like if your husband has a desire for something, then you sacrifice your own desires, like he wants to watch this movie. And you are like, Okay, well, we'll just do that. Or Or you go out of your way in a two cents to predict and fulfill needs of your kids or people in your life. That would be another way of people pleasing. I to get to people pleasing through the story that you said. I guess I would say something like that felt almost more three to me in the sense of like you're trying to present an image of yourself that is in a in a light that you're unassailable, you know, or that your character is, your your competence and your you're not presenting a side of yourself that could be questioned as a like, oh, you're a bad coach by a person who's like, technically a colleague or a peer in your profession, but you're approaching them as a client. So I don't quite get how. I guess that's my question is, how are you using the word pleasing? Like, is that? Is that pleasing them, or is
Emma Scott 26:25
right? I like, assume that it is, I guess that I could probably come up with a better example. But yeah, I mean in terms of yes, in terms of, like, sacrificing my what I want, and just say, like, just to go along with, like, maybe what other people would want, I will say, I have done that, but maybe that's what now that you say it, it's like, maybe that is why I don't have a nine fix, right? Like, maybe that would be what distinguishes because it is less about, how about this? Like I will sometimes go along with what somebody else would prefer or want. But it doesn't mean I'm not gonna make a stink about it like I will.
Josh Lavine 27:20
Yeah, there you go. This is interesting. Yeah, that's
Emma Scott 27:23
probably a good illustration of a one fix showing up too.
Josh Lavine 27:27
What kind of stink demon? What does it mean to make a stink? Um, just
Emma Scott 27:30
vocalizing why I don't like this particular setup. Like, you know, it's like, and because, again, as Okay, from a six point of view, if I'm already, like, I know what's happening today. I've planned. I prepared for this thing. This is the way that it's going to go. And then the plan changes. I'm like, Okay, I know the plan just needs to change, and I need to just be able to adapt, or whatever, and like, that's how it has to be, you know, in a lot of situations. So, you know, we're going out about our day. I've got my plans for the day. And then this has happened recently, like my daughter's soccer practice. Sometimes she'll practice here locally, and sometimes she'll practice about 30 minutes away. And so there was a instance recently where my husband texted and was like, you know, the the practice got moved from our town to the other town, yeah, for this evening, but I already had stuff that I had planned to be able to do that night, and he was going to take her come back and mow. He's like, Well, I still need a mo so I'll need you to take her. And I'm like, no, like, I can't. Like, you know, in that situation, I was like, I can't. This is the way that things have to proceed for the day. But in other instances, if I am able to adapt, I will. So maybe we realized I'm not a people pleaser. After all,
Josh Lavine 29:06
that's really that was a very interesting journey on the word people pleasing. Here, it feels, I don't think you are.
Emma Scott 29:20
How about this? Oh God, this is perfect, right here. This is so funny, because you have to give me an example. And I'm like, um, I don't know, but like, my therapist told me I was right, so it's like me taking the authority and her being like, you have all these tendencies. And I'm just like, oh yeah, I guess I do, you know? Okay,
Josh Lavine 29:43
that's, that's interesting, right there. So what's happening for you right this moment, with respect to this word? People are like, are you? Is this changing your perception of yourself and, like, a sense of I'm
Emma Scott 29:56
like, Well, I'm gonna think about this and I'm gonna explore this. Maybe I'm not. Not, I don't want to be okay, like, you know, so, yeah, no, I'm, I'm really, like, I'm gonna hop off this call, and then I'm gonna think of 10 examples of how I've people pleased or whatever. But no, I am, like, thinking of it a little bit a little bit differently. So, yeah,
Josh Lavine 30:27
I'm fascinated by this, so let's see some language I have around it. It's like, it could be that you so, yeah, so your therapist told your people pleaser, you took that on as a as a truth, or you swallowed it as a whole, as a truth, and you shifted your self interpretation from this point of view. And now that we're unpacking it, it's coming to light that maybe actually you're not really doing that much to please people, but you have a self image. Or to this point, you've had a self image of being a person who people pleases in the way that you were defining it. And let me just pause for a second. I
I know six who's very close to me, whose identity I'm not going to reveal, but this person had a sense of herself as being a person who over adapted to other people. And when I learned that that's how she thought about herself, I was really surprised, because my experience of her was that she was, she's, by the way, 613, my experience of her was that actually she was really not adaptive at all, and was the kind of person who would It was like she wasn't aware of her own, of the space that she was taking up with her own stink throwing. She had a sense of herself as as small and and, and, yeah, I'm the person who has to work around all these other people. But it was like there was so much pressure inside her that if something poked her in the wrong way, or somebody expressed a preference that wasn't something that she liked, it was like, we were gonna hear about it. But for years, she had this self image of as a person who's like, Oh no, I'm the person who has to, like, adapt everyone else. And so I wonder if something like that's going on here for you.
Emma Scott 33:27
Yeah, does
Josh Lavine 33:29
that resonate? Yeah, definitely.
Emma Scott 33:30
Um, I'm, like, very, very aware that I'm like, oh my god, everybody's gonna hate me.
Josh Lavine 33:40
Actually, I think it's really endearing that you're having this moment right now. I
Emma Scott 33:45
mean, like you're telling this story, and I'm going, oh shit. Like, but yeah, I think, like, even the image that came to me this way, I've thought about it before. Like, I've said this to people. I'm like, I feel like you get to be the rock, and I have to be the water that flows around the walk rock. Yeah, that's how I feel, but, and maybe I do, but maybe it is a little bit more of that resentful accommodation, if you know, and I will accommodate.
Josh Lavine 34:16
I love it, yes, resent. I love that phrase, resentful accommodation, yeah.
Emma Scott 34:20
So you know, because it's not that I'm like, No, we're not, you know, it, I will do that sometimes, or whatever, if I feel like, yeah, it's, this isn't right, or this is a boundary issue, or this part no like, but you know, at the same time, I do, I am a Six, and so I do value like my relationships, attachments, to fix relationships are very, very important to me, and so I don't want a disruption in those but at the same time, I'm like, Yeah, this is yeah, this isn't held. Is going to go down, or if it goes down, I'll make your life miserable. I'm making myself sound amazing. Okay, good.
Josh Lavine 35:11
Can you say more about so this phrase, resentful combination, it's so good, and I think that a lot of attachment types will are going to relate to that phrase. But the way that a six does that is really different from how a NINE and a three does that, in my view, because they're an emotional realness type. And so if you're a commenting someone and being resentful of it as you're saying, the other person is going to hear about it. Yeah, it's not going to you're still going to have a self image of a person who's like, Oh God, I have to adapt, but, but, um, what's coming out of you verbally and energetically, is like some form of frustration or disappointment or, yeah, something like that. Yeah. And also, I really want to be clear, am I projecting based on my experience with this other person, or is this
Emma Scott 36:00
true for you? Well, as we found out, I'm like taking this in, going, Yep, that sounds right, but who knows? Maybe I'll change my mind once we hop off. But no, it is resonating. It really, really is. Yeah, I think I don't, I don't. I think I don't want it to be true or something, so, but that doesn't make it not true. So how
Josh Lavine 36:27
you know one thing that I'm potentially concerned might be happening is, and I don't know if this is you have to check with yourself. It's like, in the same way that when your therapist said you're a people pleaser and you're like, oh, yeah, that's true about me. Yeah. Could it be that the same dynamic is happening in this conversation?
Emma Scott 36:46
Well, it could be, yeah, that's what I was getting at. And yeah, here's the thing. So backing up to the therapist thing, I will say, like, if you break it down and boil it down, yeah, it that's exactly what happened. But in, like, the moment, you know, where she wasn't like, you're a people pleaser. But she was like, it sounds like you're just doing some people pleasing, or something like that. I see okay? And she has said, and you've had a pattern of that, you know, you come in, you say this, and not seem like what's happening and, and I'm not just like, you're right, you know, I'm like, Yeah, I'm like, am I? And I'll question it, and I'll wonder about it, because, no, I'm not just gonna totally take on this
Josh Lavine 37:27
is good. This is good. Yeah, yeah.
Emma Scott 37:29
What people say, um, because trust, but, but I am going to consider it so, you know, and as hearing her give explicit examples of how it's showing up, and I'm going, you know, I mean, I didn't go back home and, like, research the definition of people pleasing and say, well, technically, that's not, you know. I was just like, Yeah, you know, I guess at the end of the day, I was like, either way, this is some jacked up dynamic happening, that type of thing. But yeah. So I didn't immediately, like, swallow that hole, I would say. But as you, you know, I just said, like, oh yeah, I can people please. And then we've realized, like, maybe that's not really what's happening. So in terms of, like, No, I've definitely resonated with the story that you shared about that person. And that's why I'm like, maybe I should say I don't resonate so I don't come across looking like, you know, however, but I do, I do resonate with that. Yeah, this.
Josh Lavine 38:35
I think it's really important the distinction you're making about not swallowing something whole. Swallowing something whole. And actually, you know, I think this is a big misunderstanding about sixes, or a point of confusion, yeah, where the idea of six being called the loyalist, or six not trusting the inner guidance and trusting what an authority figure says it feels like the mechanism by which a six takes in and then incorporates an insight into their worldview and map of reality is a lot more complicated than just an authority figure set that I trust said this, and therefore now I believe it. It's like it runs up again, or has to run through some inner testing mechanism, or evidentiating process where, like, so, as you said, the therapist said you might be a people pleaser, and then she marshaled a couple of stories for you to consider. And then you went home, you kind of considered it, and at a certain point it settled in as like, All right, yeah, this is now my self concept, because you kind of like, got there yourself, but it was a bit of a dance between being prompted by someone considering it from maybe a bunch of different angles. I imagine you had a number of conversations, not just the one with the
Emma Scott 39:55
therapist, yeah, absolutely, yeah. I think that. I think you said so. I. Remember the exact phrase, but you mentioned something about, like, evidence, you know, and that that's really, that's really true. Like, that's
Josh Lavine 40:09
probably a really good six word there, evidence. Yeah,
Emma Scott 40:12
it is. And because this is hypothetical, obviously. Like, if she had said, Well, you know, you're a people pleaser, and I would have been like, really, like, how so? And if she was like, you just are, I can, I can spot it when I see it, I would have been like, you can't even tell you know what I mean. Like, I know why. Um, so, yeah, I don't take just, like, a claim, like, well, this is just what it is I like to be able to, yeah, find proof of it or evidence against or whatever. Yeah, but yeah, definitely the idea of, I do like to consider a lot of different options and angles and and all that kind of stuff.
Josh Lavine 41:10
Yeah. Can you talk about your experience of planning for things? And I'd love to make this really specific about like you chose not to plan for this conversation, as you said to me before we started talking. And I love that you did that. And I would love to know what kind of thought process went into the decision not to plan and and, you know, I call that out because other types might not have even considered the idea of planning, and it wouldn't have been a decision to plan or not plan. Yeah, but there that isn't really an option for you. There's either it's gonna be a choice either way, whether you do or don't, in a sense, yes,
Emma Scott 41:59
yeah. It feels like everything's a decision, and everything's like a bigger problem than it needs to be. So but yeah, in terms of, like, yeah, this conversation and the I think, Well, partly I have got the knowledge of having watched the other interviews and seeing how, at least from my perspective, you know, I didn't know how exactly how they worked, but it seemed as though the questions would Just sort of arise organically, more or less. So and, you know, there would be people have to kind of think about it, or it would just kind of go here and kind of go there. And so at that point, you know, I started to think, well, this is probably not something I would be able to even plan for. But there is, you know, as I said to you a while back, it's like, you know this, okay, I'm not going to get emotional, but I'd like to be a part of something, you know, like this project you're doing, and I don't know if you call it a project, but, you know, I don't know. It's like, it was really important to me, and I really wanted to, like, represent the type well and be able to speak to things clearly, so that it would like, illuminate new ideas for people, or at least be able, like, even though I'm shut, you know, I'm like, like, they're like, oh yeah, that's a six wing seven, you know, whatever. Like being able to, you know, kind of represent the type well. And so there was a little bit of that fear of like, well, I probably need to make sure that I have different, you know, ideas I could say, or different examples. But you can't. If you know that the questions are just going to arise organically, you can't really do that. There are no pre questionnaire thing like, come prepared to talk about X, Y or Z. So really, the best in terms of preparation, the best thing I could do was just to really try to, like, be like, okay, just gonna really try to be present, which can be very hard for me, but yeah, so that was, um, that was a struggle. I was it was nerve wracking for sure, feeling like I don't know exactly where this is going to go, how I'm going to come across, yeah, all that stuff. But yeah,
Josh Lavine 44:40
the sense of, I liked your phrase, everything is a bigger problem than it needs to be. Yeah, can you just say more about that and what? What makes that so? And I'll just tell you, my experience of you right now is that you're doing. A lovely job. You're just you're here. We are flowing this conversation. We've, I have no idea where this conversation is going. Yeah, we arrived at this people pleasing thing, which was really fascinating. And now we're exploring this idea of planning, which arose within me totally organically in the moment. And is this when you say everything is a bigger problem than it needs to be. My experience of you in this moment is that that whatever mechanism that is on that makes problems bigger than they need to be isn't really on right now.
Emma Scott 45:34
Yeah, let me sit with that for a second, because I don't want to just like, yeah,
yeah. Maybe it's on one level just, I don't know, we're already here. We're, you know, kind of in this flow or whatever. And so, no, I don't feel as though I'm making things a problem. I think, you know, and that is one thing about sixes, right? Like, when you're actually in the moment, it's okay, you're fine. Like, right here, yeah, what I'll have to watch out for is the rest of the day after we log off and wondering, should I have I should have said that. I should have said that differently. I should have whatever. And it's not a it's not a problem right now. So why would it be a problem later? But my my brain just wants to find that so it can be working on something,
Josh Lavine 46:44
okay, right, yeah. And can we get more texture around what it means to make something a bigger problem that needs to be, quote, unquote, I feel like, actually, what I want to do is I want to call out that I think that even that statement itself is a really classic example of a sixth form of self deprecation. You know, you know what I'm saying. Yeah, yeah. And
I anyway, I get the spirit. I get the spirit of what you're saying. And I would love to know more. I would love to have more texture around what it means to make some to make something a problem, or for a thing, to become a bigger problem than it is. And what you mean by the word problem.
Emma Scott 47:37
Hmm, yeah. So I so, well, okay, in the silly example I provided earlier about like, my daughter's soccer practice getting moved for instance, I'm like, Well, this is going to impact how the rest of the night goes, and it's going to impact what I thought was going to happen, and it's going to impact where my attention needs to be, and I don't want to give that attention like and so it in my mind that feels like a problem, whereas I it's my understanding. And because I have people like this in my life who are just like, I mean, they may be like, Oh, shit. That sucks, all right, well, let's change it up. And I'm just like, no this. Like, you know, making that that would be like a problem, right, in concrete terms. Or, I mean, just anything, because I'm all, I guess, the quicker that I can resolve the problem. So with, like, the podcast I was telling you about that, I started with my friend, yeah, oh my god. Like, I don't, I've had to edit, and I don't know what I'm doing, like, I don't know what I am doing. And so it, she had already learned some of the things for that, and she's a little bit better at picking up on the technical skills, and so I was trying to follow what she told me to do. And this thing wasn't working, and it didn't need to work right then it we could have handled it like next week. I could have said, Forget it. I'll lay it down, but I was like, I have to figure this out, and I have to fix it right now, or my mind won't rest. And so, like that felt like a problem that I needed to fix, whereas when I presented it to her, she's just like, it's fine, like, we'll do it, you know? And I'm like, It's not fine. So, yeah, that's what I mean by like, my perception of what's a problem feels different sometimes than what other people perceive to be a problem. It's almost like I.
Josh Lavine 50:02
Yeah, it's like, you're going through life trying to get all of life's chaotic, irregular puzzle pieces to fit together. And once they click into place, it's like sigh of relief. So like, once you've scheduled out your day, and you know, it's like, this is how it's gonna go. It's like, Ah, okay, that's how, that's how it's gonna be. And then all of a sudden somebody comes in and screws it up by moving your daughter's soccer practice half hour away. And so the puzzle pieces now have changed shape, and they don't fit together in the same way. And so there's there. It's like, it introduces ripples and unsmoothness and stuff like that, and the problem arises to get it back to a state of fitting together. And in a similar sense, the like, it's the same problem. Or you could characterize the editing the podcast in a really similar way, in the sense that a problem is arising here, like some puzzle piece that doesn't actually, quote, unquote, have urgency right now in the grand scheme of things, but because the puzzle isn't fitting together, then it requires my attention. Yes, yes. And so I really like actually, this, this framing of sixness as as a form of, as problem solving, as a way of being. Is that something do you relate to that? Is that too strong of a statement, or, um,
Emma Scott 51:32
I do it. It doesn't feel like that's what's I don't consciously think that. Do you know what I'm saying? Like, as I'm going to say, yeah, yeah, it's an abstraction. Yeah. I do think peeling it back that is what's happening, yeah? Yeah, yeah, for sure. And, and a lot of times like this, amplification of the problem is really reflective of what's going on with me internally. Do you know what I mean? Like, yes. So like, if I'm feeling all gravy, you know, and I'm, like, feeling confident that day, or relaxed that day, or which doesn't happen often, by the way, but like whatever, the problem seems smaller, versus when I'm my nervous system's off, or, you know, for whatever reason I'm, like, kind of stressed out, or whatever it's, then the problems, even though they though they may be small, objectively, they feel really big. So,
Josh Lavine 52:50
yeah, yeah. So what helps you? Um,
Emma Scott 53:00
I guess it kind of would depend on What's going on, but probably there's something about physically changing locations, um, that can reset or something. So, like, sometimes I just, you know, when I work from home, I might not like leave the house, aside from taking my walk or grab the mail or whatever. You know, I'm just in my and that can start to really impact me. So changing it up, getting it getting a change of scenery, even though I am kind of like a creature of habit, and this is what I want to do. It All my stuff's here, but if I can maybe get out and go work at a coffee shop for the day or or, yeah, even just stepping outside, if I've been inside, definitely, you know, and just other things, like getting any way I can get into my body is always good. So I really like yoga and and walking, as I've mentioned, things like that. So that's always really helpful. I know journaling is quite helpful, and it's been a really big benefit to me to get all of the thoughts here onto paper, yeah, but sometimes the act of journaling, it's like aggravating to me, so I'll even, like Voice Memo myself, like verbally put it out there, yeah, and verbally process it versus, like, writing it.
Josh Lavine 54:44
Why is writing her aggravating? Um, I
Emma Scott 54:48
don't know if it's because I'm being forced to, like, slow down or, um, maybe because my thoughts go quicker than my pin can be. Yeah, that makes sense, yeah, so that's frustrating, yeah, right.
Josh Lavine 55:06
Can you talk about your experience of anxiety and how you relate to that word? It's, you know, it's a really six word. And I'm in my conversation with Mary, I was just, I kind of the word anxiety opened up for me in a way that I I'm still wrestling with, in a sense, what it is and it Yeah, can you Yeah? Anyway, what texture Do you have around it? Well, I
Emma Scott 55:44
It's a that's a really hard question. I'll do my best to answer that. I think it's because it's kind of the, you know, water I'm swimming in. So it's hard to fully define it, but my my personal experience of it, and this is probably why I did not relate to being a six early on, I thought it was probably one of the types that I was least likely to be
Josh Lavine 56:20
interesting.
Emma Scott 56:24
Yeah, I just, I mean, I read it, and I thought, not that one, you know. And I think a lot of it was because the description was assigning like, oh, worst case scenario of thinking like, all of that. And I guess I wouldn't have thought of it like that. I hadn't developed enough of, like an inner practice to, like, observe myself doing that or whatever. So up to that point, and even now, really, I feel like anxiety for me shows up more. It does show up more in my body. Like I don't I, I know that I obviously must have thoughts, right? Like, I must I have a lot of thoughts, but like, when it comes to worry, for instance, like I don't feel like I'm I don't know I'm worrying. I'm worrying. I'm just thinking about this thing. I can't, I don't. I will do that on occasion, but I just don't really perceive it to be that way. Anxiety. For me, it really is just this baseline, like, heightened, heightening of, like, the nervous system or something like that. Like, I wake up every morning and I'm just like, on and I'm thinking about stuff, and I know everybody doesn't work that way. And I'm like, you know, it will be like, 30 minutes into the day, and I'm over asking my husband, like, have you thought about this and what you know? And I'm just like, yeah, yeah, about this. Like, he's like, I'm like, you don't want to talk about, like, all of this amazing stuff, like, drink your coffee. Let's talk, you know. But like, it's just, yeah, I'm just right there, even though I'm tired, you know, maybe my kids kept me up or whatever. I'm tired, but it's just this, like little bit of elevated elevation in my nervous system is kind of how I feel the anxiety on a day to day.
Josh Lavine 58:33
One thing that really strikes me about this is how your your body can be in a state of exhaustion or just waking up, but your mind, it's like, there, there's a different engine existing at the level of the mental center that can be on and revving irrespective of what's going on in the body, in a sense, like they're, you know, there's a way that they can, they can be disconnected. Yeah, maybe that's one way to of defining in a workforce, or one way to frame it is to connect them, but, but it's like, you're, you're you're woke up, you're tired, and your mental center is already operating at 100% or 110% and what's happening you're you're noticing things that you haven't thought of before, or things catch your attention that all of a sudden urgently require more of your attention and and it just begins spinning. Is that a fair characterization how it works?
Emma Scott 59:39
Yeah, yes, absolutely. Yeah, that's what it feels like, and it's gonna be different day to day. But, and again, it's like, it's that whole like energy is gonna follow attention thing, yes, and I know what I learned with my energy, too. Yeah, and if I'm like, Really, especially like, when I'm excited about something, you know, I'll just that's when a lot of like, I'll have like ideas or whatever, spark up. And it's not necessarily the most convenient time, because I need to get kids out the door to go to school, or I should maybe be a little more present as a mom, or something like that. But I'm like, but this is when, like, I just, you know, I want to write this down, or I want to go ahead and craft this craft, this thing for a project I'm working on, or whatever. Yeah, you did. You characterized that well,
Josh Lavine 1:00:47
can you talk about what's hard about setting that pattern down or settling that pattern in order to be present with your kids, or what it means for you to be present with your kids that is in contrast to that pattern, or does that does that pattern sometimes serve you in being present with your kids? Or is it a problem? Or
Emma Scott 1:01:10
that's good question. Of course, I'm immediately thinking how it could be a problem and what's wrong with it. But as with anything in life and the Enneagram, it's like, well, it's probably both, um, but immediately I'm thinking about it as a problem, um, because I don't, I don't know if this is like all of the super ego sludge and all of those fixes or whatever, but I definitely have an expectation of how I should show up, yeah, how I want to show up, how I would prefer to show up. And then there's reality and so, and it's almost like, you know, setting this really, really high expectation, or what it doesn't really feel that it's high or that it's too lofty, but, you know, it keeps that pattern going of feeling like, you know, it continues to help me beat up on myself. I'm gonna keep beating up on myself because I'm not being as present as I would like, um, and again, sometimes it is also goes back to that creating a problem where there is none I'm thinking, I should be doing this, or I did it meanwhile, like, the kids are fine. You know, it's not like they're like, Mommy, mommy, pay attention to me, and I'm like, get away, although sometimes I can't do that, but so it's a little bit of both of those things, like I'm making it a problem, even though it's not a problem. I'm setting the bar really high and feeling like I'm not quite meeting it. But yeah, it is like, especially if it's the creative spark that's going and not just like that rumination, but if it's like this, this is a new idea, or this is a whatever I feel like, if I like, let that go to be more present. It's gonna go away. It's like, off in the ether, and I've lost that so, but that's not as important to me as my children. Do you know? But sometimes I act as though it is if I'm not as present as I want to be.
Josh Lavine 1:03:37
So yeah, you know, one thing that's coming up for me right now is a genuine curiosity about what it means to be present with someone, especially in the context of parent, like, what it means to be present with your child from the point of view of each of the centers. So, like, there's, there's a way that we could be listening at a body level, in the sense of just responding to each other's energy, and that's you could bring the social instinct to that, like I'm experiencing just your energy right now, and it's having an impact on me. And there's an exchange going on at a body level, and there's a way that we could be present to that, which has a way of when we are present to that deepening our moment in the moment connection. Then there's a heart way of being present, like a way of just receiving and receiving the gaze, like you, receiving my gaze upon you and me, receiving your gaze upon me, and us being connected in a in a way that's mutually valuing from the heart center. And then there's the mental Center, which I think what I'm getting at is, like, I'm aware of the mental center being in a lot of spiritual circles, generally shat upon. But like, the mind is, you know, it's characterized often by, yeah. It's kind of dismissed. It's like the mind is the monkey mind. And you know, if you're like, if you and I are present together, and we're thinking about a lot of stuff, and there's a way that there's that's characterized as not presence, yeah, so I'm thinking about presence in the mental sensor you and me right now as like it could be even that moments of this conversation have embodied that in the sense that we're just staying present to what insights are genuinely arising, as opposed to, I don't know, being distracted by other symbolic reality, or, yeah, me being like, it'd be one thing for me to ask you a question about, like, oh, what's going up? Like, what's in that picture frame behind you? Or, like, why'd you put that mirror there? Sure. Like, you know, yeah, but to be present to what's arising in you as from a mental place.
Emma Scott 1:05:50
So I don't, I don't know, because I've never thought about it before. So it's like, I don't have a file for that, or whatever, but just based on like your description.
Maybe it would be that, because I know you can listen and hear on all different ways, right? But maybe it is something about truly. Hearing what's being said and what's real versus me projecting a new meaning on something that's not there.
Josh Lavine 1:06:33
I love it. I love that. I think you nailed it, yeah, I think that's it. Okay,
Unknown Speaker 1:06:37
yeah.
Josh Lavine 1:06:41
So given what you just said, Is that available to you on a regular basis, with your kids or with with people who are important to you? Is that a way that do you consider that a kind of superpower that you have as a six
Emma Scott 1:06:58
I don't know if I would have said superpower, but I like that, so yeah, we'll say that. Okay, like I gotta redeem myself here, okay, but yeah, yeah, I think that is available to me. I and more and more, maybe the older I get and the more I practice that probably wouldn't as been as as available before I worked with a little more, because what my mind wants to do is to project things and To make, make up stories and things like that. But yeah, I think that it is,
Josh Lavine 1:07:48
how do you know when you're projecting stories? Or what does it what does that mean for you? Or, I wonder if you have an example or, like, really experientially, the difference between what it's like when you're projecting mental content onto a person or situation versus Receiving in a present way, what's really here?
Emma Scott 1:08:19
Well, one example would be like, Okay, so there's like, the thing the person says, here's the words that came out of their mouth, but based on so many different variables, how I'm feeling that day, my are the current relationship I have with that person. Is it Rocky? Is it not Rocky? Whatever? Um, I could probably make meaning out of the words that they're saying that aren't this. It's not true. That's not really there, sure. Um, so, you're just making up stories.
Josh Lavine 1:09:07
I'm noticing the time, and I'm wondering if there's anything that we haven't covered that you want to touch on.
Emma Scott 1:09:16
I don't think so. I No, I don't think so. This has been really fun. I hope it doesn't suck.
Josh Lavine 1:09:32
She said, Lego six. Can you, yeah, what has this been like for you?
Emma Scott 1:09:40
Um, I
don't like, it's, I don't know, it's been really exciting. It's been very, I've really enjoyed, like, you know, like. Being able to talk with somebody else who is really well versed in, like the Enneagram and, yeah, being able to kind of play with different ideas and things and consider new options for myself, like, yeah, it's been, I don't know, it's been really fun. So
Josh Lavine 1:10:25
cool. Thank you for doing this, and for I really appreciate your that whole thing about people pleasing was so cool because, yeah, I got to, I got to see you in real time, incorporate a new insight about yourself, yeah, yeah, so thanks for just doing that in real time and being willing to expose yourself like that.
Emma Scott 1:10:48
Oh, yeah. Well, you're welcome. Thank you for having me. Yeah,
Josh Lavine 1:10:51
okay. You
