Kier 0:00
Hey, I wouldn't want people to underestimate the paranoia and need for secrecy that can be present with with this tri fix, generally. And I was thinking, Yeah, you know, okay, sure, I'm going to be spontaneously authentic, and I'm going to be in the moment. I'm going to be present. I'm going to talk about what's going on with me inside. It's like, all right, it's like all right, you basically just asked me to bench press 375 pounds. Okay, see you in two years. Welcome
Josh Lavine 0:30
to another episode of what it's like to be you. I am Josh Lavine, your host. Today, I'm interviewing my friend Kier. But before we get into that, I want to give a few plugs. First is for the new Enneagram school that my friend John lakovich and I have started. We are currently in the middle of our first ever class offering, which presents a new view of the centers of intelligence as a developmental framework, and also combines that with a new understanding of object relations, and combines all that with some inner work. I'm really excited about the school as a place that is going to be facilitating community of people who are sincerely dedicated to their inner work, and there's gonna be a lot more offerings on the line. So please stay tuned. You can check us out at the Enneagram school.com plug number two is for the Enneagram expressions library, which you can check out at Enneagram expressions.com and that is so the enneagrammer group has a celebrity database of people. They typed, and I took that information and visually displayed it through, if you're familiar with notion, basically it's a standalone website that you can interact with the celebrity database in a visual way, and you can actually filter views so you can see, for example, all type threes who are social, soft pres, or all people who are tri, fix, 358, and all people who are social, sexual instinct. And then filter by type. There are also sections where you can see everyone who's a who has been typed, that is a writer, or everyone who is involved in the arts, or everyone who's a business person. You person. And we've also typed some fictional characters as well. The Enneagram expressions library also includes sections where you can discover poetry and art and other things like that as resources, or sort of by type, as resources for you, if you are an Enneagram teacher and you're looking for a poem that captures the essence of type three for a retreat that you're giving, or a class you're teaching, or something like that. I wanted to create some place where we had accurate, consolidated resources like that that were really useful for teaching one of my favorite parts of the retreats that I've been a part of that have been really impactful for my personal growth have been the poetry and the art, and has actually awakened a relationship with poetry and art that I didn't have prior to those retreats, and that way of engaging with poetry and art. So anyway, it's a great resource, and check it out. Enneagram expressions.com Finally, if you are a frequent listener of this show and you've listened to some of these interviews, I would so appreciate it if you liked and subscribed to this YouTube channel, or if you left me a review on the podcast version. There's actually two versions that I could publish this, both as an interview on YouTube and on the podcast same exact content. So yes, please, those kinds of things really, really help. And if you'd be willing, I'd really appreciate it. Okay, let's get into the interview. Today. I'm interviewing a man named Kir who I met on the Enneagram or Facebook group, and he reached out to me about six months ago to do an interview. Kier is a social self, Pres three, wing two, with five and eight fixes, so triple rejection, adjacent three. And I did an interview with him about six months ago, and I sat with it for a while, and I watched it again recently, and emailed him and let him know that I was choosing not to publish it because it just didn't reach the level of interior depth that I'm looking for for this show. And what resulted from that was a really amazing email conversation between the two of us that then resulted in the interview that you are about to watch. So I want to say up front that I really respect Kiir for accepting my invitation to do another interview and to use this interview as a way to reflect on what happened last time. And I also really respect his willingness and courage to embark on the journey for him, a fresh journey of interior excavation about his type, which we get to which, amazingly, we got to capture in real time. So yes, this is a lot of fresh stuff for cure. And also, just want to say up front that it's pretty amazing to see a person, not just of his core type, three, wing two, but also 358, the particular trifix, which has a lot of secret notice and hiddenness as core facets of its type structure, be willing to expose himself and excavate himself live like this. So it's really special what what came about here, and I just really appreciate Kier for doing this. So let. Get into it without further ado. Here's my friend here. So this is actually round two of interviews with Kier, because we did an interview in July. It's now January, so about six months ago. And I want to set this interview up by just stating the process of how we got here to this moment. So we did an interview, and I watched it and kind of set it aside for a little while, and then I re watched it about a week ago, and I sent you an email and basically said that I'm choosing not to publish it, because my experience of the interview was that we didn't get fully to the level of interior depth that I was hoping and we stayed kind of the level of talking about profession and some other things. And then we had a really, really interesting and rich email exchange about that topic itself, how the interview came about, why it stayed in that territory, and then it kind of blossomed into some revelations about your tri fix, 358, and the hiddenness and secrecy of that try fix, and the tight rope that you walk, and a bunch of bunch of stuff came out that was really, really rich from an interior looking into under the hood of type three, in particular, your tri fix. So that's kind of a can of worms to open up right up front, but I thought we'd just start here, and I'd love to just sense first, how are you feeling right now and as we're starting the interview, and what's it like for you as you, as we, as we begin this part of the conversation, Talking about the process of getting here.
Kier 6:42
Well, that's a hell of a way to be introduced. Josh, well, I have some apprehensiveness about my ability to pull off my part of the conversation, simply because I've come to realize that so much of what I do day to day, and so much of the way that I live out my patterns of my personality is seemingly designed in a laboratory to prevent much, if any reflection on the topics that I was spontaneously willing to share with you Over the emails and which I spent 7585 minutes in July, seemingly preventing you or me from looking at those things, seemingly without me even being aware of it. You sort of hand me the microphone, and I refuse to say anything that was particularly, particularly illuminating about my internal life. And I and I had an audio recording of the call that we did in July, and I listened to it three to five times in its entirety. And I just remember thinking once I got past because I remember saying, and you brought this up in the email, and I appreciated that where, and I said, I'll be disappointed if you don't want to air this. I don't know why it even occurred to me in the moment to say that maybe I don't, I don't know, but I I just sort of came to the conclusion that so much of what I was talking about was really insular and narrow to me, and that it wasn't necessarily saying anything. There was that, I guess the sort of subjective inward component was missing, as it's missing a lot of the time for me in general. And I mean that, in and of itself, is a pretty interesting topic, right?
Josh Lavine 8:45
Yeah,
Kier 8:46
why do I do that?
Josh Lavine 8:49
It's a good one, yeah, um, I'm taking a breath. And I wanted to just, I wanted to share that. I wanted to share my experience of our email exchange. So the first, the first, from my point of view, when I watched the when I watched our interview, I actually felt that both of us were kind of in our respective patterns a lot, and by that I mean you as a three with a triple rejection, adjacency thing were presenting as a somewhat impenetrable insularity, where there was, as you describe, not a lot of interior, subjective reflection going on, but there were a lot of interesting analyzes and insights that you were making about how you apply the Enneagram in your work and as a trial and as a trial lawyer and all that kind of stuff, and I as a triple attachment three was kind of a little bit just being seaweed in the tide of our conversation and letting you run with that, and not constellating myself and asserting myself to open up the conversation and direct it more to and. Coronavirus, and so I was kind of like going along with things, and so I took some of the blame for that conversation, and then that was the that was kind of how I led our email. And then you kind of actually called me out in your response. You basically said, You're too kind to take the blame for this, because I was also showing up in my pattern, and it opened up a conversation we had, I don't know, maybe 20 email exchanges after that, and
Kier 10:28
they were,
Josh Lavine 10:30
they kind of sequentially opened up into more and more interiority. And I proposed a couple of potential topics for what we might talk about in a redo. You actually asked me pointedly, do I want to do a redo because which I loved? Yeah, yeah, because you're like, are you just saying that you want to do redo, just because you're being nice? And I was like, I appreciate the question. Actually, I would love to do a redo, but I would want for the conversation to be more subjective interior, and you're like, okay, cool. Well, that that's possible, but I want to hear the topics in advance and kind of prepare for them and then. But it seemed kind of like, over the course of our email exchange, you opened up and kind of softened to the idea of there being a little bit more spontaneous, unprepared reflection about what's going on internally for you. And in particular, actually, I was really struck by you brought up the topic of, why don't we talk about why it's so difficult for me to reveal myself, and what the hiddenness and secrecy is in my trifix. And so I was pretty amazed. Yeah, I was pretty Yeah. Did that all happen? Go ahead, yeah,
Kier 11:43
totally. And I appreciate all that. And I just remember sort of what I didn't say at the time, but, or I was processing it afterwards, and I was thinking, Yeah, you know, okay, sure. I'm going to be spontaneously authentic, and I'm going to be in the moment, and I'm going to be present. I'm going to talk about what's going on with me inside. It's like, all right, you basically just asked me to bench press 375 pounds. Okay, see, in two years, you know, and it's like, it's just, it's, I have a, I really have a hard time being spontaneously authentic and in a particular way, because so, like, I just sort of to explain, kind of some of how that comes about is, like, I really don't spend much time processing my internal state. I really avoid it. And the way that I avoid it is through basically constant activity, through constantly, you know, going from thing to thing to thing to task to task to task, just running around doing all of this, like workaholism, typical stuff that you would probably recognize in a stereotypical threes behavior. But I've come to realize that I do so much of that, you know, pattern because I don't want to be present to I don't want to slow down, and I don't, and just be with myself, because it's just, you know, who knows what's underneath the cobwebs in there, you know, yeah, yeah. And, you know, it's sort of like, almost like a falsified nine characteristic, where it's like, I just sort of forget, like, I'm, you know, whatever traumatic like, conversations I've had, like Wednesday or Thursday, I can, like, barely remember them at this point. Other than, you know, I remember the emails, like, in our discussions, like, very vividly. But, you know, in my day to day, I just, like, I don't slow down enough to think about what's happening and how I'm feeling about it, I just don't, and because I stay in motion, I tend to forget, like it's like, almost like a way of cheating, having to process like painful emotions or rejections or like hurt feelings or whatever. They just don't have a place in the day to day world as I've constructed it, and so I'm hiding it. I'm hiding my inner world from myself to some degree, and the tool that I'm using to do that is just like tons of activity, right? And why would somebody do that? It's sort of an interesting question that I've been reflecting on, yeah, for for some time now, but certainly, specifically since you brought it up, or we brought it up a couple days ago.
Josh Lavine 14:35
Yeah, um, man, that's a really that's a big threat to pull right there, and it
Kier 14:41
is. That's why, that's why I was saying. You asked me how I do and I'm like, Well, I'm feeling a little bit apprehensive, because if we can understand this, you know, I mean, let's, let's give a shot.
Josh Lavine 14:55
Um, you mentioned in your email the idea. Of coming out as a three, yeah, and, and I know that that has context for you in terms of your family history, and I don't know if you'd be comfortable sharing a little bit about that to set the context and what the phrase coming out as a three means to you.
Kier 15:15
Yeah, definitely. So this is so I think this directly ties to what we were just talking about. Because, yeah, what you were, what you just brought up, is, sort of, why do I not want to go inside and look around in there? Why not? And the history, and this ties directly into my type journey, if you will. And I, you know, I you know, I used to miss type as a different type, because, specifically because of family that mistyped me. Is that and eight, right? Yeah. And so I'm going to try to kill multiple birds with one stone here. So my one part of my family, like one side of my family has a really sort of deep history with depression. And my grandmother, her family is has had, like, a lot of like issues with depression, okay, and you know her, her her mother killed herself in an asylum. Her sister killed herself in an asylum, like bad, bad depression, okay, wow, which we know can be, like kind of hereditary. And when I was four years old, I'm the oldest, like on that side of the family, I'm the oldest of about 17 or 18 grandkids of my grandmother. And so when I was about four years old, my sister was to my grandfather, my my grandmother's husband had a really bad stroke, okay, and it completely changed his brain, and it changed his personality, which was never, ever the same. Since, you know, he spent 12 years living after that, where he was a different person, and he knew that, and everybody around him, knew it, and he had this, like, deep shame about it. But what's relevant is that just my grandmother, who had been pretty tough, like, and who hadn't really had that much issue with depression, like, became sort of like heavily suicidally ideated and just turned into when I was very, very young, like, just kind of like an emotional disaster. And my mom, who's the oldest of her family, felt this like incredible sense of responsibility for that. And basically my experience of that kind of came to a head when I was about five, because right after my grandmother had gotten some really bad news about my grandfather's mental health and about his health in general, we went to West Texas, to this sort of desert park called Big Bend. For a week. We drove all the way out to West Texas. And then, you know, I remember seeing this, like, Scorpion like, this is like, sort of like my first, like, sort of cinematic memory was coming back from Big Ben, because I remember driving in a car going about 75 in the back seat. My grandmother's in the front seat, driving. My aunt, my mom's younger sister, is in the front passenger seat. I'm in the back. And my sister, who was at the time two, about to turn three, I was five, were there, and I just remember, like, the vehicle was like, kind of like drifting off of the road, okay, started to drift, and we going about 75 miles an hour, and then we go off the road, the vehicle flips and it like crashes. And then, you know, there's glass, like blow, like blows inside the vehicle. This is before there are airbags. So there's no airbags, okay? And the vehicle flips over. And I, what I remember was just pushing the door out, getting out of the vehicle, like turning over to try to look back inside the vehicle, and my sister sort of hanging upside down by her seat. Upside down by her seat belt, like balling. Okay, it's like, that's like, an incredibly vivid memory for me. It's just her hanging upside down in the car crying, and then I crawl back in, I get her out of there. I mean, thankfully, nobody was really hurt. But you know, if there had been in like, another oncoming vehicle, there's probably like, a 50% chance somebody would have been killed, or much more than that. And what we found out afterwards was that my grandmother fell asleep because she was, like, having so much difficulty dealing with her, like, like, sense of grief and loss and just her, like, negative emotions, right? And it really affected my mom and, you know, my grandmother, like, had to live with me in the same room when I was, like, 567, thereabouts, couple years. And my sister was always having like, emotional arguments with my mom. And it was just like I was, like, really young that I kind of just cut off from my I felt like I had to be, like, the strong person, like, as everybody around me was losing their shit big time because of their kind of inability to deal with whatever was going on with them. And so I just kind of decided that I wasn't going to have that problem, because this situation's dire enough, you know, because we easily could have been killed like my. Like my grandmother's inability to deal with her shit kind of almost killed us or almost killed somebody else, and I, and I never had that thought stated that bluntly until recently, because when I was a kid, I think it was too much for me to think about it like that, like I just didn't, I didn't think about it in such, like, stark terms, but that's literally what happened. And, you know? And I told, and I recently, like, told my mother about this, and she was like, well, first of all, she immediately starts crying, but then she says, you know, yeah, when you were a kid, like, I was so preoccupied with my parents, I felt so much responsibility for them, like you really didn't have, you really didn't have a chance to be a, like, just vulnerable little kid, like I wasn't getting as much attention into the extent that I was feeling freaked out or upset, like nobody was paying attention to it, because there were other sort of, more like, dire situations. So I don't know, I guess I I got really kind of cold and kind of mean as a result of this, because I'm not natively, like I'm not innate, but that's what they thought that I was because I kind of became, I don't know, I really lived out that fixation pretty intensely when I was a young kid, and I mean, to the point where, like, even when I talked to my sister about it, still she's like, she still is like, yeah, I don't, I don't think you're a three. I just kind of don't see it. I see you. I because, because her memories of me being like a bully or just being, just being a jerk, or just were, like, too intense, that that's what she that that's just how she's going to see me, you know, I don't know. So that's kind of what, what sort of prompted me into this. Because I, I've, I carried around a mistype that was based on the way that they saw me, which I feel like was what they needed me to be. Because they needed somebody, they needed somebody to be able to hold their to not have that problem, to not have their, you know, like their guts, like spilling out all over the place to the point where it's creating messes for other people to clean up, you know, yeah, and so that. So I was like, I can't put up with, you know, I'm not putting up with anything. Like, I'm not, I'm not having weaknesses, vulnerabilities. Like, no, you know, because that I thought they needed that from me,
Josh Lavine 22:26
right, right? Yeah. You said, yeah. One of the things you said in your email that was striking for me was like, the world wasn't safe for you as a three or as a as a young three, it wasn't a three or something like
Kier 22:39
that. Yeah, it didn't. It didn't because there's a certain level of vulnerability that I think is associated with being a three. And I think people see, I think people know about that, but I think they also kind of, they over end, they underestimate it and they overestimate it in weird ways. But sure, now, like for me to be sort of like this is hard, hard to talk about, but it just didn't seem like having to, like, I I needed to not give a crap about what they thought about what I was doing, because I didn't think that they were up to nurturing or nourishing the side of me that needs that admiration and that needs the respect, and it needs the positive feedback and needs to be put in a high social position, or whatever, or the generic kind of three tropes like that that are that are, in a way, kind of true for me, is, like, they don't have, like, there's no bandwidth here to give me that kind of attention. Like, I'm just here to I just need to be as tough as I can and not need that from them. And my mom's even been like, yep, we were preoccupied. We weren't going to get, you know, you weren't going to get that. Going to get that. So I didn't, and I, but I, but I'd like train myself. I mean, I didn't know that this is what I was doing. But in a way, it's come I've come to realize this sort of what I was doing. I just I trained myself, and I trained myself and I trained myself to ignore not getting what I am. You know, kind of emotionally needed from, from that, right, right,
Josh Lavine 24:27
yeah, what's the I don't
Kier 24:31
know if that's clear at all, but, but sort of like that because I went, because I adapted so much to this like, level of, like, internal rejection. Like, no, there's nowhere to go. You know, you've got rejection in the body, you've got rejection in the mind, you've got rejection creeping up on the heart, and it's it, there's nowhere to go. So it's sort of like just adjusting to that unhealable wound of existing that's like, it's like, I can go to my head center and. Escape From it, right? No, right. It's there everywhere. And so that, because of that, I just said, I just adapted to, I attached to that set of circumstances to such a degree that they don't even like, they don't necessarily see me for who I am today.
Josh Lavine 25:17
They still don't Right, right?
Kier 25:20
And there's no, I mean, that's crazy to think about.
Josh Lavine 25:23
It's remarkable, yeah, and it's very clear what you're saying. And I want to just, I want to get a little bit of context real quick. Is in terms of where are you at in your journey of processing this or talking through it? Like, have you worked with people before? Or is the Enneagram, has it been a useful tool for you in terms of understanding, contextualizing myth, or, like, Are you kind of new? Is it fresh for you to talk about it?
Kier 25:48
It's fresh for me to talk about it, yeah, but it's but, I mean, I've known about the Enneagram for 22 years, but I spent 91% of that time. I spent 19 of those years kind of ignoring it in a way, right? Like, the Enneagram is so powerful. You know, we know people in the community that have been into it for a year, two years, and they're like, completely into it because it's so powerful. But for me, I was like, resisting looking, like, too closely at this for a long time, right, right? And I think that's kind of consistent with what I'm saying, because it is, yeah, yeah. I mean, I've, I've, I have a number of friends that are interested in the Enneagram that I know. I mean, people in my life, you know, you know, when I was talking to my mom about this stuff last time she was in town in December of 2022, her first question was kind of like, what do you think you're getting out of talking about all this stuff, out of bringing all of this stuff up? And I'm like, Well, you know, I'm just processing these things that I never gave myself permission to even think I was experiencing when I was, like much younger. But it explains why. It explains why they don't see. It explains why the sort of the trained eye of the people that I've talked to in the Enneagram can see that I'm a three pretty easily, and it's not very challenging to see that, but people that know me really well from way back when just don't know to what extent that I adjusted myself to provide strength that I saw themselves as just completely not having. And I mean, it's not like I don't have an a fix, but it's almost like I got, you know, it would have been easier for them if I was, if I was born as a native, would have been easier for me to be that, but I guess not, you know? I mean, it would have been anyway they would have.
Josh Lavine 27:32
I'm pretty struck by how fresh This is for you to process. And you know, I just want to say thanks for trusting me with this, and the community that is going to watch this with with this, and it's, it's pretty remarkable to see you kind of beginning the process of excavating this and and come to terms with it, and contextualizing the context of you being a Three. And one thing that really stood out to me from a few minutes ago, when you were talking about like the way that you've set up your life and staying constantly in motion was a way to kind of keep this under the surface and not to look at it. And that includes, I imagine, working, working, working a lot as a lawyer, and maybe the way you've set up your family life and stuff like that, I don't know it'd be for you to reflect on, but one of the things that's really interesting to me, too is that even the way that you've engaged with the Enneagram for a really long time has been a part of The pattern that has kept this stuff under under, investigated. It's very interesting to me, you said, I'm saying
Kier 28:46
totally, I mean, and I mean, it's almost like I need a guide to go in there, because I've witnessed, I have witnessed people, many people who firsthand, have been not able to deal with, like, whatever was going on with them internally them looking at it kind of tore their world apart, and it affected everybody else around them. And it's sort of like looking at that fact kind of turned me to stone in a way where I just didn't want to look at this, I didn't want to look too closely at what was going on, because I was pretty much, like, I kind of, yeah, so, yeah. But I mean, there's, like, a lot of, you know, I don't want to give an impression that's, like, too negative. And that's one of the things I was worried about going into this, is like, I don't want to, I don't want to be too depressing. But, I mean, these are, are too heavy, but like, these are, mean, that that was heavy to do. That was a lot for a five year old, you know, yeah, I could imagine. I'm not trying to think about, you know, this is, you know, because, I mean, I did have, like, a pretty good childhood in most ways. I mean, I'm not. I know there's a lot of people in the world that have been through a hell of a lot more than I have, and I'm not discrediting that or ignoring that. I'm not. I don't see myself as Vic. Them, but it sort of explains some of the things that we've been talking about. Sure, yeah, it does
Josh Lavine 30:06
Yeah. And also it that really helps to understand your use of the phrase coming out as a three. Can I read a short paragraph you wrote in your email with that? Yeah. So you said coming out as a three is awkward language, but there is some merit to it. In my case, I don't feel indestructible inside as a 358, I feel like a cat that's used up seven lives already. I can't take that big of a hit twice, so I put a lot of pressure on myself to for to perform my high wire act. Knowing that the stakes are high, I can push the envelope, but there's a limit to it. Yeah, why do I feel that way? It's an honest question. Yeah,
Kier 30:49
I don't know. That's a good question. I mean, that's yeah, because I don't, and that's kind of part of the mystery. Is that, you know, it's like, I'm I hide my own degree of like sensitivity from myself, even because I act in a way that's consistent with me being less sensitive than I actually am, but deep down, I know that there's like a risk associated with that, because I'm not somebody that's capable of just taking too hard of a hit from life. You know, it's like, it does matter to me. I mean, sometimes I go into things where I'm like, I'm just a, you know, I'm just a bleeding heart type, I hope nobody notices, you know what? I mean, yeah, like, I hope nobody notices that. And I, you know, I'm pretty good at hiding it, and I'm pretty good at putting on a face that's serves the purpose that needs to be served. But, you know, it impressed me that you were kind of what, like, you watched that, and I said a lot of things in our last interview, and I kind of was trying to be impressive. And, I mean, like, some of it probably kind of was, but you still kind of were, you saw that, and you're like, Yeah, this is not really what's going on in there. And so it's, it is, it is possible to see through it. But, you know, I definitely the cat with seven, the cat that's used seven lives is kind of, I feel lucky to some degree, but I don't feel indestructible, yeah. And even if, you know, if I come across that way, if I come across impenetrable, well, I'm not Yeah, but it's a use for some reason, maybe just from being really, really young and having to, like, there's sort of a vacuum of strength that needed to be filled. You know,
Josh Lavine 32:40
I yeah, I get that. What's the I have two questions. You pick what's the nature of your sensitivity, like, what kind of stuff do you get sensitive about, and what happens for you the stuff? And
Kier 32:55
then only Yeah, go ahead. No, no. The
Josh Lavine 32:58
other question is related to it, and it's, I wonder what your experience was like to receive my first email and to basically realize what you were realizing, which is, Oh, Josh didn't really buy this thing that I was putting out. He was seeing through something else to something else.
Kier 33:19
Okay, so the questions were, what does it feel like to be seen through, seen through in a way, yeah. And then the first question was, well, what can you ask me the first question again, yeah,
Josh Lavine 33:35
the first question is about the nature of your sensitivity. Like, what kind of stuff do you get sensitive about, and what happens
Kier 33:40
for you, the nature of my sensitivity, and what was it like to to sort of be seen through? Yeah. So yeah, I think I can use the second question as a lead into the first one, yeah. I did the same thing that I always do, which is I immediately kind of recognize that this is that I have, I now have a problem that I need to attack and solve, because I'm sort of like, in a way. I mean, I had reached the same conclusion, and I was impressed in that way, because, I mean, we both have the same sensibility and that we're both social threes, like, you have an audience, like, I have an audience. You know, it's, it's sort of, there's a level, same level of awareness about what could be going on. So I was able to kind of be like, Okay, well, well, there we both have, and we both have reached a similar conclusion, yeah. And I didn't reach a conclusion. I wasn't, like, predicting your behavior, but I was reaching a conclusion like, yeah, okay, he's he probably shouldn't put this out there for, like, because if I'm him, I'm probably not putting it out there for a variety of reasons, and then the fact that you reach that conclusion, I'm like, Okay, well, that was smart. But, I mean, yeah, like, is there sensitivity about that? Do I have, like, emotional pain about that? I think I kind of what would make sense for me to do is probably what I did, which was I would try to avoid any kind of. Sense of, I would be trying to avoid experiencing any sense of like hurt or disappointment that's associated with that by intellectualizing it and sort of trying to look for some way to turn it, you know, make some lemonade out of the lemon or whatever, sure. And so I, it's a reminder. It's a reminder that I it's a reminder of, like, the extent to which I'm willing to to try to avoid looking at some of the things that we would have to look at to really have a useful conversation about type three. So it just reminded me of the extent to which I'm doing the pattern even now. And I think that's, I mean, yeah, there's, there's some, some kind of, some, like, a tinge of social rejection associated with it, but that's pretty like, in other words, I'm able to deal with that because I'm able to under Like, because I'd already basically reached the conclusion that it, that it would have been a reasonable thing for you to do, right? So I guess that's, I mean, I don't know how much of a cope it is, but it's, it's at least partially a cope, to think of it that way. But it's also, I think, the truth. So it being the truth goes a long way for me. And then, you know, in terms of, like, what I'm sensitive about, I'm sensitive about being surprised, and I'm sensitive about, I'm sensitive about being surprised for one thing, and I kind of want to get into, I feel like this, that question is kind of pulling me into almost, like, the transactional nature of rejection, right? It's sort of, as long as we have an agreement about what, what's supposed to be happening and what's what we're supposed to be doing, I don't, I don't feel like I can be rejected. Because, you know, we, we've come to an agreement about what it is that, that you're trying to accomplish, and what I'm trying to accomplish, and what, what like, what are the kind of the terms of the game, if, if the game has been called and we've both agreed to it, then Win, lose or draw, you know, I can handle the outcome. But in terms of, I kind of get sensitive when, you know, I don't know. I mean, it's hard for me to really describe I mean, words are going to fail me here, but I'm going to try anyway. You know, it's just I get sensitive about a whole host of dynamics that could be present, and I don't want to be, you know, heard or rejected in a way that isn't something that I had considered ahead of time, yeah, that's and that kind of gets into, like, the lack of spontaneity, yeah, like the planning. It's sort of like, you know, because I just, on some level, I just feel stupid, and I feel like an idiot when I get drawn into something and experience a negative outcome that's unchosen. And so I do, do think that my my head does kind of pull me in the direction of like having some trouble with spontaneity.
Josh Lavine 38:19
That's fascinating to me because it tracks with the sequence of our email exchange, because your initial response to my email was amazing. And almost it was like sort of cerebral and legalistic. Almost, it was like acknowledging point to point to point, and then it was like, if you would like to do a redo, then I would like topics in advance, and then there's gonna I would need to prepare for it. And then it was sort of like, and if that's amenable to you, then we can move forward. And then as we as we kept exchanging, then it was, my experience of you was that you kind of softened a little bit, and then actually started even suggesting topics yourself that were the kinds of things that would be very difficult to prepare for. And it was almost like the sensitive reaction of, like, the wince, and then the three, five stem competence, like, Okay, here's how we're gonna, like, do this now and then and then the subsequent softening as as what, as you started to feel a little safer, as you started to warm up to the idea of unearthing this stuff and exposing yourself, or what, yeah,
Kier 39:35
I thought, I thought it was important for me to see you recognizing some of my concerns about getting into some of this stuff. Yeah, and I thought that at the point where you were kind of giving me some room to say, you know, I am concerned about saying too much. I am concerned about i. This being used against me. I'm concerned about lots of negative information about, you know, personal matters, like psychological matters, like, there's some genuine, legitimate concern about that, right? And, you know, I don't want to spontaneously say something that I that could be used against me, you know, because I have responsibilities and I have things to lose, and I don't want that that's unchosen. I have a lot of sensitivity about that, right, right? So, having so bringing some kind of, like transactional logic to the situation, sort of like, well, I I'd like to know what you think that I can talk about that would be relevant to to what we can discuss. And, you know, I'm going to give him my best effort. And really, what happened is, I spent a couple days, you know, mostly just by corresponding with you, brainstorming, and then I, I don't have anything in front of me right now, other than the screen. We're just talking. I mean, I have this Yeti, but, you know, that's it, yeah, you know, yeah. Because I think there's some level of like, I wouldn't want people to under I wouldn't want people to under emphasis. I wouldn't want people to underestimate the paranoia and need for secrecy that can be present with with this tri fix. Generally. That's good, right? Yeah, yeah. Because it's not necessary. It's, it's fascinating, really, because, like, you this, you know, try fix this. Three is like, I think I've met, I've met one person in my entire life who I'm highly confident is a three with five and eight, okay? And it's sort of an interesting thing to observe externally, because you have the sort of Darwinian three eight stem, sort of, that's sort of clearly competitive, and it's clearly assertive, and it's clearly willing to, you know, break some mags to make an omelet, like that's its own agenda. It's willing to use its elbows and all that good stuff, yeah? But then you, and that's like, very obvious and very naked and very out there for the world to see. But then the the withdrawn head is highly confusing to observe in, in in, like, the same sort of matrix, right? Because it's sort of like you see the three eight stem, and it's obviously the person is engaging in activities that are, you know, competitive, furthering their own self interest, etc. But then the withdrawn head makes all of the details kind of completely opaque. And it's sort of like that. And I tend to like, and I remember, like, regarding such a person with, like, cried a bit of suspicion, because it's sort of like, what's really going on with this guy? Yeah, because it's, you see, you see the you see the intention, you see the agenda, you see the sort of assertiveness, but you don't see what they're going to do to try to fulfill that. It's like, very kind of, it's, it's, it's just kind of weird, like, I don't know. I don't know. Yeah, I
Josh Lavine 43:04
was gonna just actually read another paragraph or two that you wrote in your email that directly relates to this. Is that cool? Yeah, okay, you said the main topic I would add to the list you sent is, why the hiddenness? Why the secrecy? Why the stonewalling, why the fear of self revelation, even to yourself, what is so scary about admitting you're human and acting accordingly? Why live in fear of clandestine cloak and dagger shit that never happens? Why be so constantly concerned with the truth that people aren't telling you the truth that lies behind the wall of civility and normality, and then, actually, I think I'll read the rest of it. These questions concern me because they weigh on me, but I don't necessarily have any answers that aren't deeply uncomfortable. The tip of the iceberg is that I've often felt like other people don't like me or appreciate me for who I am, and as far as they're concerned, they don't have the time or interest to find out I was weird in quotes, and not only that, I live in fear of the rug pull the mistake that cost me dearly, the cat that's the cat who's used seven lives image I spoke of earlier. Beneath my so called impenetrable facade, there was confidence and solidity, but there's also the knowledge that I'm not unbreakable and I can't take too hard of a hit twice, if that makes sense. 358, is the lone wolf assassin per David Gray, which is deeply flattering to my self image, but there's an element of stealth and secrecy and hiddenness that goes into it that's related to a terror of being discovered less than mission we have sacrificed so much for so long, be lost.
Kier 44:42
Yep, I don't know what the hell I was talking about. Josh, first.
Josh Lavine 44:46
I mean, first of all, you're a beautiful writer. This is good stuff. Thanks. Um,
Kier 44:51
but Well, are
Josh Lavine 44:53
you being tongue in cheek, or is that? No, that
Kier 44:54
was a total joke. I just thought, yeah, there you go. You got me? No, yeah, that's the only joke. I mean, I noticed talking about, I mean. But it's, it's more question than answer. I mean, they, you know, that there's a process that would have to go into trying to figure out what the answers to all those things. I don't know. I just, I think that there's a certain degree of, you know, like, if we think about it in terms of of a core three has a need for others to recognize the value of the self that the self can't give to itself. Or, yeah, you know, yeah, it's like the external, that the framework that provides value is external rather than internal, at least, that that's the myth or the self deception, right? So to me, that's it, sort of, if I were to be open and honest and direct about why I'm doing what I'm doing and what my you know that I want you to think that I'm great at this thing that I'm trying to be great at. You can just defeat me every time by just saying no. So I sort of want, like, in other words, people can always thwart like a threes objective, simply by refusing to give them the approval or admiration or validation that they're seeking. Right? Like you could put you could create an evil natured computer to tell you every time that the answer is no to your you know, it's like, yeah, you can deny the heart can be so easily denied. It seems to me, it seems very, it seems it seems very like weak and vulnerable in that way, you know, and culturally like, culturally not to open that can of worms, but there's, there's a lot of disrespect for the heart, there's a lot of disrespect for emotions, particularly, you know, if you're if your gender is male, there's an added layer of to it than that. You know you're not supposed to be, you know, like heart full. You're not supposed to have all these emotions and care about what other people think. Man
Josh Lavine 47:02
actually do that. I would love to go in this direction. I think it's really powerful, especially just like social three is so absorptive, and can't help but be in relationship to that cultural milieu. You know, the values in the culture, and the kind of anti heart thing that you're pointing to is certainly, as a social through myself, something that I experience a lot, and feel like I'm on a sort of rageful war against, in a certain sense. I mean, actually, in a sense, for me, that's what this interview series is about. Is bringing, bringing more of a heart sensibility to places where it doesn't normally go. And anyway, I'm really curious.
Kier 47:47
For War, you said I it's a very normal that's not. Those aren't the words I'm expecting you to say, I know, I know there's the rageful war. What's that about for me? If you don't mind Mike asking questions, yeah,
Josh Lavine 48:01
no, that's I'm happy to Yeah, for me, it's so I
do a lot of executive coaching. This is I'm gonna get at, I'm gonna get at a very personal thing here, but through a professional lens. So I do a lot of executive coaching, and I find myself just amazed and bewildered at how often I have to be an advocate for the quote, unquote, human dimension of work. Totally, yeah, totally is incredible. It is just like, and my and I refuse, I refuse to stop being shocked about it. Like I like. It is shocking to me that I have to be an advocate for relationship itself, that, and there is an amazing blind spot in so, in generally corporate America and even the startup world, which, for the most part, the startup world is a little bit more kind of Empath, empathically oriented than sort of traditional corporate America. But even so, you know, I work with a lot of startup founders that haven't quite figured this out yet, that empathy is important and that emotions are important, and that it's a useful thing to pay attention to the emotions of not just yourself, but the people around you, and that there are emotional impacts happening in interpersonal relationships all The time, and that that actually creates friction or lubrication and on the work process that psychological drag builds up because people's emotions aren't being attended to. And as a I'm an extremely sensitive person as a social three, but also as a triple attachment type. It's just like my nervous system is extremely sensitive and, you know, I remember as a kid I was, I like, pretty much like, up through fourth grade, I was it was a good day if I didn't cry at school kind of thing. Like, I was very, very sensitive as a kid. And I think that there's a way that. I, because I'm a three, I've, I've had this ambivalent relationship with trying to adapt to a world that is somewhat emotion blinds or empathy blinds, but knowing that in my deep, deep core, like I'm a sensitive person, and that I and I actually care about sensitivity, and it's kind of a place that I would want to plant my flag in terms of what I represent in this world is being an advocate for this kind of, for interiority and for sensitivity, and so my my rage for war. I mean, that is a that is certainly an extreme statement, but there's, there's kind of an emotional truth and resonance to it, because I feel just like fucking enough is how I feel about the world, not caring about this
Kier 50:40
totally. Yeah. I definitely see that. I mean, like, the business world and, I mean, that's just one place, but I mean, even in pop culture, even in, you know me, and even on the internet, you know, it's like, have we hurt your fee, fees, like, etc, like, it's just there's, there's so much disrespect for the and I mean, like, some of it is justified, in a way, because, yes, the heart is somewhat exploitable in that way, by an inhuman sense of identity, like if you if you could lie to yourself enough, then you could probably be able to overcome it as much as you want. But that's, you know, it's people don't want to admit that they even have this part of themselves in a lot of ways, because it makes and, I mean, like, yeah, because it's like, because the head always wins, in a way, the head knows how to win, like, that contest if it wants to. But not really, but not really. Like, it's, it's, it's hard to describe. I mean, the words are failing me at this particular moment, it seems. But because what you said is definitely accurate,
Josh Lavine 51:44
I have something I want to share with you that I'm curious if you relate to, I have a feeling you're gonna relate to this. So one of the things that that I find to be kind of concerning to me about me being a three and caring about this is that as a it's like I'm a heart type, and I'm and I am definitely a heart type, but I'm so adaptive that it's like I'm I'm also, in certain cases when I'm not really, really careful, or what, or vigilant about myself, or if I'm just sort of playing it's my pattern, as opposed to my the conversion of my pattern, or, like my higher self, then I'm actually part of the problem. You know, I'm, I'm part of the system that buries the heart, because I'm burying my own and and I'm kind of, like going cold to others as well in the process. And, you know, sometimes it takes a good friend to, like, knock me with their elbow or something like bro, like, you know, you've lost yourself again and and come back home to my heart. But there's a way that as a three I feel like I feel like an advocate for the sensibility, I feel like it's my in a sense of vocation, to bring heart and to be, to be a Yeah, like, yeah. This is Yeah, go ahead, yeah. You go, you go. Or
Kier 53:18
you want to finish the thought, yeah, finish the thought. For
Josh Lavine 53:21
me, the thought is, it's like, on the one hand, I kind of, I want to see myself in some kind of, like, Rebel Alliance that's bringing heart, sensibility, you know, to the Empire. On the other hand, I am, I get nervous about how, like, it's, it's, it's almost like, because the attachment type thing is almost a fundamentally receptive stance, as opposed to a source stance. It's like I want to be a source of heart, but in my pattern, it's like I'm always in the position of wanting to receive love and admiration and heart from other people first, before I'm willing to even open and reveal Myself that that's something I care about. And so the reversal from receiver to source is something that I work with in myself a lot as a kind of, you know, work practice. So
Kier 54:11
to be a heart, blind heart type is a paradox in itself, right, right, which is what you just described in a way, yeah, you know, it's that you're but, but by the same token, you're asserting the heart right? The heart type that's assertive is the heart type that's heart blind and and that's a literal that's tautological. So, yes, the fact is that those who don't have the same degree of connectedness to the heart center need somebody, even if it's coming at the cost of that individual, person's own degree of, you know, presence to their heart center, like that's what's needed to bring that message, because some because it's not gonna it's it has to be somebody has to be able to assert it in. Wage you know, conflict against the fact that people, just generally speaking, are not willing to own this part of themselves as much as some others, in many cases,
Josh Lavine 55:12
right? I have a question for you about workaholism and just how like it seems to me that part of the structure of your life that keeps everything in motion is is just working a lot like a three. And I'm curious your relationship to that, and, yeah, just how that operates in your life. Yeah. I
Kier 55:34
mean, my relationship to that is incredibly complicated and difficult to describe, but it's it's almost an absurd, it's almost an absurdity where, okay,
Unknown Speaker 55:47
okay,
Kier 55:48
I'm not even kidding. I mean, it's, it's almost absurd because I've had the experience before, just being aware that I would so much love to be somebody who could, like, feel content with themselves if they weren't working 70 hours a week to try to earn it, but then also awareness that if I didn't do that, I would just I, I wouldn't be able to give myself the kind of affirmation that I can Get from being somebody who is like, it's, in other words, I I understand that I need to be able to dial it down, but I also understand that I wouldn't know where my value would be coming from if I did,
Josh Lavine 56:34
which is sort of absurdity. And that's a really, I mean, that's a really core three statement right there, that yeah, it's Yeah, yeah,
Kier 56:43
the human doing is real, and that's what it is. And I think that's the long term, like, that's a long term evolution, right? I mean, am I going to be one of these people who's still squeezing every last drop of productivity out of a day when I'm 75 because I don't know how to do anything else and never learned. I mean, I It's very I mean, I know people like to are exactly like that. I know people that are older than that, that still, that are still doing it. You know, there's still, they still need to be the guy who's who's providing the providing the services, to get the value from other people. And, I mean, that's like, Okay, if there's, you know, it kind of, it's hard for me to really even know where that's leading to, because I can see, I can see pros and cons of it. I'd like to have a sense of peace that would come from where it's like, it's not being forced, like, my type isn't forcing it on me, you know, like, where it's it's like, it's like, being forced on me, in a way, because, sort of, like, literally, if I, if I chilled out and I didn't fill up every single day with activity, activity, activity, doing, doing, doing, doing, doing, doing, if I didn't do that, I would just kind of crush under the weight of not being able to respect myself, by myself, for myself, on my own terms. Yeah, and what I what I think would be the sort of squaring the circle is having. Squaring the circle would be where I don't need it, but if I want it, then I can keep doing it, you know? Yeah, that that a more attracts where it's more chosen, right, where it's it's not just, I'm not just like, inflicting this on myself compulsively, yeah? So what that looks like is hard to say. I mean, I'm literally that person. Like, if I show up at the family reunion, I'm not I'm going to bring my bags inside from wherever I got them. I'm going to put them down. And I'm going to immediately, I'm not even going to say hello. I'm going to immediately start doing whatever. I'm going to start cooking. I'm going to start preparing the food. I'm going to start like, I'm literally not going to stop for one second. Sometimes, like, that's what it's like for Thanksgiving. You know, it's like, I show up, I put down my bags, all right. Where's the turkey? What you know, like doing the doing the work to start getting everything ready, because everybody's gonna have a good time, whether they like it or not. Yeah, you know, it's like, it's like, I literally don't slow down. And people are like, do you want to sit down for a minute? Do you want to have a cocktail? I'm like, I gotta do this turkey right now. You know, that's just how I am. And it's like, I don't slow down, like, I literally don't want to sit I don't want to sit down and just have to be quiet or and just listen to myself be like, Okay, this is what it's like to be me for this one moment. I don't, I don't even want to do it when I'm in, when I'm in the like, pattern, big time, you know, yeah, yeah.
Josh Lavine 59:39
Something about I keep wanting to ask the question, like, what would surface for you in that moment? But I think it's kind like everything that we've talked about in the last hour is the answer to that question.
Kier 59:54
It's, it's, it's a layer. It's a layer of the answer. There's a lot of layers to it, I'm sure. That, um, you know, the things we've been talking about, or, like, the dynamics that are underneath what we've been talking about are affecting me in ways that I probably won't even know about for a long time. You know, because it's, it's yeah, it's hard to, it's hard to really get there, but it, there's not necessarily finality to it, but that's okay. I mean, right, yeah.
Josh Lavine 1:00:24
Are you motivated to keep keep digging?
Kier 1:00:29
Well, lately the answer is yes, and I think there's good reasons for that, because lately the answer is yes, and I just rough, you know? Yeah, lately, yes, I think the answer is the answer needs to be yes.
Josh Lavine 1:00:51
I'm curious where that motivation comes from.
Kier 1:00:56
You want to hear the sales pitch, or do you want me to try to struggle more than that.
Josh Lavine 1:01:02
What do you think you
Kier 1:01:04
want me to struggle more than that? But so the sales pitch is that it's actually relevant to the things that I do to try to distract myself from the answer, okay? Because you know being being rap, like being authentic is important. You know when people when you're not authentic, people can smell it on you, and that's a weakness for pragmatic reasons. But yeah, beyond that, beyond that, I would say that I'm trying to remember what we're talking about. Why? Where does my motivation come from? My motivation to somebody degree, comes just simply from existing. I don't know where it comes from. It's just there. Yeah, it's just intrinsic. In some way, it's just intrinsic. In some way, it's almost like just an energetic like, I'm just a manifester by nature, like, and I think a lot of threes are the same. You know, we can manifest very easily, and what we manifest is going to be what we think about. So be very careful what you think about, because that's what's going to be coming to you in the end. So on the other hand,
Josh Lavine 1:02:10
it's kind of impossible to control what you think about, especially if you're three and you're oriented to this kind of material.
Kier 1:02:18
And therein lies a lot of the sort of, sort of darker themes that I was talking to you about in my email, because my inner world is dominated by domination. It's dominated by, you know, rejection themes. It's dominated by you know, and people who understand object relations like it, to some degree would understand that to be dominated by domination internally, ie, by rejection themes, is to be dominated by what you don't want. So if you think a lot about what's going on inside, you could very well be manifesting your worst nightmares in a way like that. You're afraid of your you're afraid of other people having control on you, like with sort of like an eight theme, or you're afraid of being unloved, like a two theme, or being sort of at the mercy of a hostile universe, like a five, like, the more you think about why you're doing that, it's like, there's, I think there's some concern on my part that you can just negatively manifest it. So one sort of shallow, superficial, limited solution is just to not think about it. So because, like you said, Yes, but we manifest Yes, true. But what we manifest is what we think about, which is difficult to have conscious control over, right?
Josh Lavine 1:03:30
Although the thing that's interesting to me about so I love that point you just made, dominated by domination and the rejection, object relation, orienting your mind to what you don't want. It strikes me that in that paradigm, attachment is oriented to, in a sense, what you do want. And you sent me this incredible voice memo over email a couple days ago, and one of the sort of like an Oscar winning speech sort of thing about like, about your like, your I mean, the essence of it is something like not giving up on on the heart, on your heart, on on, on that part of you that is sensitive and wants Something, wants, wants love, not just for yourself, but sort of like there was almost a universal sense of, like, I'm not giving up for heart itself. Something about that that really resonated with me, and was kind of inspiring to hear you talk about it. And I I could hear your like, almost like redemptive, triumphal, like, emotional, like, really, I'm not giving up on this kind of thing in that speech. And so that I wonder, I mean, it strikes me that that is whatever place that came from in you, that speech is the part of you that is intrinsically motivated towards this, this. Kind of conversation we're having right now, and the and the excavation of your interstates and all that kind of stuff.
Kier 1:05:06
Yeah, I mean, in that that started out with I discussed some of the things I was talking about a few minutes ago, where I was basically saying that you can always deprive like, the heart with of what it wants, simply, if you know what it is, right, is connected to the kind of need for secrecy in the sense of, like, I guess, in classical terms, like, sort of, like the deceptive quality, um, self deception, probably as much you know one way to prevent other people from understanding what you want so they can't deny it to you, is for you to not even be aware of it, to tell it to them. And sometimes, sometimes when it is my case, I don't even know if the left hand knows what the right hand is doing, almost like an MI five who was given specific instructions that are very clear, but in terms of the reasons why it's like, don't ask. You know, I'm on a need to know basis, and nobody told me like that. That's sort of how my relation to why I'm doing what I'm doing. I can often only understand why I did what I did in retrospect, like usually what I'm doing, usually my intentions are apparent to me after the fact, when I look at what I did and I imagine that what I would be manifesting if I did the opposite of what I did, because that is why I did it. With the last call. I look at it, I'm like, I didn't want to give away too much information about myself accidentally that could be used against me. That's why I did that. I understand that now I didn't understand it. Then I didn't choose to do that. But that's what I did, and that's why I did it, as far as I can tell. And yeah, so that that that layer of, that layer of like sort of opaqueness, protects me from the understand, protects me from the fact it the fact of reality, which is that others can deny you the if all you want is for me to think that you did a good job, buddy, you did terrible like, you know that that that's like, kind of the cynical, the cynical dynamic that I'm scared of and but I really don't believe because, because I'm a person, because I have a heart, I don't believe that that is what's another person is really capable of doing. Like, I know that they're not an evil robot, like I know that they're not. I know they have a heart too, and they and I can see it maybe more than they can. The same with they might be able to see me more than I can see myself in that way. But it's like, I'm not going to give up on pursuing what I want to do and what I care about. And sometimes that's like hard to but it's hard to sort of negotiate the social reality of it, because I'm aware that people don't always respect sort of what people don't all. I mean, people will work against what I want, or people will work against, you know, the reasons why I want what I want, if they know what it is. So, there's so, so there's some, there's some desire to kind of keep it under wraps. But by the same token, you know, I'm not going to give up on what I want, and I'm not going to give up, just in a general sense. And it's hard, it's really hard to talk about, but I'm trying as hard as I can.
Josh Lavine 1:08:37
You're, you're doing remarkably well, and I think that it's there's a sense, for me, there's just, like an overall sense of, let me put it this way, the quality of of your presence and your just being in this Conversation versus last conversation is like, radically different. I mean, it's just totally different in terms of your even, like the pauses you're taking before you answer questions and stuff like that, and the level of not just interiority, but it's, I want to use the word wet Jesus, like, there's like an emotional, yeah, there's like, an emotional, like, yolk or something that is, like, at the center of this, like, the egg has been cracked and, yeah, exactly, yeah. There's like, I mean, last, I mean, in contrast, the last time, which was, which was much drier. There's something more, like, primordial and alive and organic here, and that's very compelling to me.
Kier 1:09:51
Well, I know that I'm going to fail to say exactly what needs to be said. You know? I know that I'm not going to be able to put into words things that are. Possible to describe one one way to tackle that reality is to say nothing. Another way to tackle that reality is to do what I did last time, which is to talk about something else. And then, you know, another way to do it is to just sort of let myself mumble, if, if that happens, or misspeak or say something in articulate just kind of let myself fall if that's going to happen, but get up and say, just try to try to explain it again, because, you know, that's it, yeah. I mean, not basically just like not giving up on the process, because the process in the work is what's going to get the result,
Josh Lavine 1:10:43
right? Yeah. Well, you know, I'm noticing the time, and I I'm curious how you're feeling now, after having spoken about this stuff for the last hour and 15 minutes or so, and if there's anything that we left off the table that you want to
Kier 1:10:59
bring up, no, I mean, I in terms of leaving anything off the table, I haven't really been tracking. I didn't really have that much of an agenda. I think you've brought up a lot of the things that that we discussed previously, and I think that we've covered a lot of the stuff that I think is interesting to there was implicated, that's interesting to talk about. And we've sort of not discussed a lot of things that I think would have probably led us in the wrong direction, in terms of, you know, like, how I'm feeling right now. I mean, I'm, I'm in the same kind of frame of mind that I was in at the beginning of the call, in the sense that, you know, I'm just here to try to talk about some of the stuff that we that that's, I think, you like, I don't know. I mean, it's, it's the same thing, you know. But I'm glad that, I'm glad that you've, you've been here with me to talk about this, like, I mean, you say that I'm looking different and that I'm seeming different, and it's night and day. Well, I mean, I could, in some way, kind of, it was my appreciation of your presence the last time was sort of it. I could tell, in a way, that I was sort of like, losing you, uh huh, yeah, yeah. And I don't think I've lost you here if I have, and I'm unaware of it. I mean,
Josh Lavine 1:12:11
yeah, no, that's actually, that's a,
Kier 1:12:14
Can you unpack that point a little bit? What that was losing you or that? Yeah, and you're just, you're, I mean, it's really, it's the social, free awareness, too, the smallest things, just you're kind of just overall facial expression and just your sort of, like I could tell when I was kind of taking the ball and running with it and kind of subjecting you to that, because you it's sort of this sort of impassive facial expression that you would have sure, you know, you're very, kind of neutral. You were not showing any emotion, really, but your eyes were kind of, like, unfocused, I guess. Yeah, I don't know. I like, I remember seeing that at the time, and I remember just being like, well, you know, okay, I fine, but this is what I'm going to talk about.
Josh Lavine 1:13:08
Yeah, that's good. I mean, I love it's just so I love that as a dynamic, because it is, I mean, for me, that's like, that's classic triple attachment job, especially with nine secondary, kind of, like dissociative. I'm here, but I'm not really here. I'm just letting this kind of, I'm letting the ball of yarn, just like, unravel itself in whatever way it's doing it without really participating fully, or something like that. Yeah,
Kier 1:13:37
yeah. That's not, and I know that that's like, not necessarily what either one of us wanted to happen. But it wasn't, I think, a waste of time. I don't feel in any way that that was a waste of time. I don't either.
Josh Lavine 1:13:46
I mean, especially, especially that it resulted also in our email exchange, in this conversation, because this is, yeah, it's pretty cool.
Kier 1:13:55
It is. And, I mean, you know, we haven't met IRL, and so maybe it was sort of like getting to know, that's the kind of the thing. It's like, we've been able to roll with it, you know, we've been able to play the ball as it lies. So the fact is that, you know, I'm glad that that happened. I get in retrospect and but just having some more intentionality, and for you being willing to sort of, first of all, I mean, I mean, I think I encourage you to be a little bit more assertive in this call, which which you are, but you know, maybe not as much as you needed to be last time. And, you know, we, you know, direct it, direct the conversation. And, you know, don't let me, kind of, don't let me change the subject and then start running with it, because I will do that is part of my overall pattern where I'm trying to avoid having to be too present to any sense of like discomfort or right, any concern that I have, or any like sensitivity that I might have. Because, you know, it would certainly be fun. Serve me to say that I don't care that you know your side of this conversation is rewarding to you as well. Certainly I want it to be rewarding to you and to anybody else that's willing to listen to it so but by the same time I don't want I do have a tendency to, like, try to win at all costs, or be ruthless, or whatever my objective is. Just my objective last time was, I'm not really sure what we're going to talk about, so I really can't allow too much disclosure to happen that would be potentially dangerous. And there's something very dangerous about like, what's in sort of the shadow of my imagination about what could happen if too much control is relinquished. So
Josh Lavine 1:15:47
and the and the micro dynamic that you're describing, of our conversation is itself just a really interesting thing. I just love that exploration, because, and we talked about it a little bit, but like you noticing me doing that sort of passive here, but not really here thing, and also me noticing you kind of just being the ball rolling down the hill, just with like, momentum upon momentum upon momentum, you know, just kind of just just doing and talking, and your talking points and all that kind of
Kier 1:16:23
stuff. Yeah, that's so true. Because, like, I just do, I just do things like, I will just do things like, non stop, like, I kind of don't necessarily think about it too much like, I mean, I think that might be getting into sort of body center, sort of, it is, I
Josh Lavine 1:16:38
think it's just for science, yeah, like, we just
Kier 1:16:41
kind of do stuff. We just kind of get up and go, we just kind of do, do, you know? And it kind of accumulates, like, sort of the thermodynamic potency, where it's just sort of like the object in motion just stays in motion. It builds up speed, you know? And that's just kind of something that that can happen, if I'm not conscious of of it and like, and that's why I think, you know, typically, I think a lot of people would hear like, I'm not comfortable being really spontaneous. I think most people would hear that admission and think that it was an admission, and they would think that it was sort of like a negative thing, you know, yeah, yeah. Particularly in a more social, you know, or a more intimate domain, where spontaneity is often viewed as like being a very positive or almost like healing thing, where, you know, you're sort of liberated from having to be so premeditated and planned and deliberate and controlled. But you know, for me, like, I don't know, it's kind of my comfort zone to be more intentional, yeah, but so if some amount of intentionality needs to be present for me to have, like, baseline level of comfort, but being once like, I feel like you're comfortable with that dynamic being present in me. It's like, yeah, you know, I guess I'm kind of concerned about being spontaneously authentic, and I do have some issues with that, but the fact that you're willing to hear that and kind of be okay with it and humor me a little bit in that way, gives me some of the willingness to be more unscripted and unpremeditated or what have you, right? That's good, right? Yeah, that's positive. That
Josh Lavine 1:18:29
tracks that I Yeah, that makes sense to me. Cool. Well, you know, listen, man, I wanted to tell you, I just this is an this has been an amazing conversation for me, and I really respect you for pulling back the hood and kind of exposing yourself to the degree that you were aware of
Kier 1:18:44
Yeah,
Josh Lavine 1:18:45
and just yeah, as you said, the underbelly of this trifix must be, must be revealed, and we have to
Kier 1:18:52
be, we had to. And that's, I think that's how we know that we've done our job here, is that you should not, if we're talking about what it's like to be somebody that's trying to fix like, neither one of us should be comfortable completely, yeah, like we should not if we're here just having a comfortable discussion, whatever we're talking about, it's not the interiority of of three fighters. There you go. It's not there you go. That's right, I gotta get comfortable. I gotta make you uncomfortable. And then we gotta deal with the aftermath of what comes from that, because it's not it like there are things that are going on beneath the surface that that are so uncomfortable that I probably don't even know about them, you know, like, and I'm not, I mean, it's just kind of true. So yeah,
Josh Lavine 1:19:38
well, thanks again for trusting me and us with your process here, and I know that it's, it's kind of fresh, and I imagine there will be much more over the next few years as you
Kier 1:19:50
continue to excavate this stuff. So I hope so. I really hope so. Yeah, this won't be our last discussion. I have a feeling, all
Josh Lavine 1:19:57
right, man. Well, thank you very much. I. Thanks for watching this interview with Kier, and I'm going to leave you here with the audio recording that he sent me in the email sequence, which I think speaks for itself. So please enjoy.
Kier 1:20:14
I mean, the heart is, in a way, fucking just is more helpless than an infant child, because the heart's gain is to gain what is processable by the heart as approval, validation, respect, love and admiration. But if you were to pit the human heart against a computer and a game theory optimized game where the computer's job is to defeat the heart strategy, the computer will bat 100 and fucking zero. It is elementary as hell. Do you want to know how to defeat the three's core agenda? Don't give them approval, admiration or validation. Just say no. Just say no. That's all that's required. That's it. That's all you have to do. And the three can't win anymore against the computer. I mean, fuck, you know Garry Kasparov, three, wing four, TED Talk, IMHO, lost in the 90s to the super computer. Deep Blue. Fuck, you don't need a super computer like this. Is easier than tic tac toe. You can deny the heart what it wants 100% of the time computer, the computer wins the strategy when, if the strategy becomes transparent, if it becomes clear that the threes game is to gain admiration, affection, love, applause, approval, etc, for work and for achievements and accomplishments, I'm no longer impressed. Fancy that. How about that? And that is such a brutal, cold, ice, cold truth about reality for the heart shit man, not to digress, but why do people talk about fee fees? Why do people mock sentimental people. Why are feelings fucking despised? Why are millennia of toxically male evolution, socially speaking, stacked against emotion and the heart? Why do we believe that we need to have no fucking heart to succeed? Why is that a punch line? Why can I gain say this argument by saying, huh, I have no heart. Why? Because humans are rational. We're rational. We're logical creatures, and we know that the heart by an emotionless opponent can be defeated every last time, every time, not not partial success, not mixed success, not win. Some, lose some you never, ever win ever again, no matter what that is, the gravity that is what the creature that hides in the dark of your fucking imagination is capable of. You never, ever, ever win ever again, and you lose all hope of it. That's what lurks there. That is the whack fucking mindset. And it's it just it's chilling for me to think about it. It's chilling as fuck. It's terrifying. But the heart, at least in so far as I've been representing it in the past minute or two, or however long it's been so started rambling like the heart is smart enough to know that I can. I'm fucking acting in a way. I'm not. This is real as fuck, but I'm acting because I want you to think that I'm more vulnerable than I am because I know something that the computer doesn't. The computer doesn't know that it was created by a human and it was operated by human, and it is operated by human and. Will be operated by a human will be so dead, it's not even funny by the time that's even possibly not the case anymore. Okay? So I know that you're not a computer, and I know that you know that I'm not a computer. So the fear of the computer 100 zero domination is is not fully imaginary. It's simple logic, but it's not inevitable. I can move your emotions. You can move my emotions without my consent, I can move your emotions without your consent. You're movable in the heart. I don't give a fuck. How heck sad core eight you are. You got a motherfucking heart in there, and your failure to notice it is a liability, not all the time. Many times it might not be, but it's a fucking liability. You have emotions, you have emotions, and I will pry the validation that you human have the capacity to give me, but I know that the computer never would out of your cold, dead fucking hands if I have to, if that's what it really comes down to, because I am not giving up. I'm not giving up, not really. If you ever see me appear to give up, grab me by the arm, pull me to a corner where nobody can hear the two of us and say, Here,
what's really going on here? Question mark, and I'll tell you, because I am not giving up on what I am I don't even, I don't even know to say, nothing I can say. Could really express it. I.
