Charles 0:00
It's just so sneaky, you know, and in the way that it kind of creeps up on you, yeah, it's like, you're young, and you have these ideas, and you're he was nine, you're chill, you just want to surf all day, or, like, that's my wife's married. I could just live in a trailer in the desert. I would be happy as flying shit or something. But you start responsibilities and family, society puts pressures in. You just kind of get into this groove that you're expected to do once you kind of get in that group, it's so hard to see it. You're just so numb at that point that you just, yeah, you lose connection with anything you may have wanted to do would be, you know, the past, or just being a function. Welcome
Josh Lavine 0:41
to another episode of what it's like to be you. I'm Josh Lavine. Your host today. My guest is a nine wing aide named Charles Thompson. Before we get into the interview, I want to give a couple plugs. First is for the new Enneagram school that John lakovich and I have started the Enneagram school.com it's going to be a place where you can meet other people who are devoted to sincere inner work, and also learning fresh new insights about the Enneagram along the way. And also the other plug is for the Enneagram expressions library, which is a visual display, visual interactive display of the Enneagram or celebrity database, and also a way to explore and discover poetry and art and music by Enneagram type, especially useful if you're an Enneagram teacher and you want some of those resources for retreats and things like that. Also check out a couple of the fictional characters that we've typed as well. And finally, if you are a frequent listener of some of these interviews, I would super, super appreciate it. If you liked and subscribed to this YouTube video, or if you're listening to this podcast, then please write a review. Some of those things are really, really helpful for people like me. All right, let's talk about the interview. Charles Thompson is a social self pres, 98963, try fix. And man, this conversation was very, very interesting from a from a conversational point of view, the just exploring the differences between my conversational style, which has a three competence orientation, and his nine wing eight, kind of meandering ball rolling down a hill, conversational style, which we explore together in real time. It also is a really good exploration of the what the eight wing does with to the core nine. So you got like a rejection wing, rejection object relation wing on an attachment core. And finally, I just want to say that Charles, we get into this in the interview. But Charles, for about has been married for about 20 years or more, actually, for more than half his life. He has four kids, and he has started a number of different projects, including currently an internet marketing and web agency, and in his own self description,
Charles 2:52
yeah, I love the cook of the garden, like, off grid projects, like, I'm like, one of those nines they talk about that has like 50 different projects going. They're all half done, all over the place. And one of
Josh Lavine 3:02
the things I want to point out is that Charles, self admittedly, was numb and fulfilling functions and auto going on autopilot through life for a period of about 20 years. And recently he had a Resensitization and re awakening, and kind of came back to himself. So explore that as well in the interview. So please enjoy this interview with my new friend Charles. So. So why don't we begin with, I'd love for you to share your Enneagram origin story.
Charles 3:34
What was it? You know, I got a psychology like, 20 some years ago, got a degree in it, didn't use it for anything professionally, but so I've always been interested in that, especially personality and abnormal psychology, you know, things that maybe go a different direction, what site expects, and things like that. But you know, mainly personality is where my real interests lie. About six years ago, I was really getting back into MBTI again. Okay, interesting that I'm an INFP in that, in that room, but really getting into that with my oldest daughter. So nerd nav on that for a while, I discovered Enneagram. Forget who I discovered first, maybe Chris here. It's something I really enjoyed. Now, recent Hudson and Chris, here's and some of those other guys in that realm over the years, and just was consuming all the content I could on this stuff for years now. Came across the Bighorn Enneagram podcast. Really loved that they're little, you know, little on a negative there's any other fields, but I like to view all sites. I'm not scared of a little negativity, too. So that was really fun. I really enjoyed their content as well. Yeah, that's, I guess, the origin story pertaining to me. Personally, it was really difficult to figure out my instincts, the type the nine, almost immediately knew that, you know, but figuring out the instincts and then the try fix so. Of contact with David Gray, and it was booklet and some different things to figure out, because I had no idea. I mean, I guess what they called Bermuda type or whatever, just, let's go around circles. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, so it's kind of
Josh Lavine 5:17
when so you reached out to me about doing this interview a few months ago, and you contextualize your reaching out by saying that you think you have a good perspective on what it's like to be a nine who has been married to someone for a long time, like a family man, you've got four kids, you're married, and what it and especially the Bermuda nine sense of as in your words, meandering forward through life, and what it's like to kind of go on autopilot and be fulfilling roles, as opposed to being really anchored sort of within yourself. And what really struck me about our first conversation, actually, a lot struck me. First of all, the immediate visual impact of you and your tattoos is striking. And that's a that's a whole thing that I want to get to that in a minute, but I want to set it up, because I think that the context is really important, because sounds to me like you had this really long period of life where you basically were on a form of autopilot. And then something happened recently where you, I think it was triggered by you going to the doctor, right, and you discovering
Charles 6:34
the an issue with your blood pressure, although, yeah, yeah, go ahead.
Josh Lavine 6:40
So something happened recently for you, and I'd love for you to share the journey of it, but you basically realize that you've not really been with yourself or something like that, and you and you came back to yourself. And one thing you said was like, I hadn't cried in 20 years, and you're crying now, and some other things are it's almost like you're resensitizing from a from a state of somewhat numbness to now back to feeling more things at all, like feeling feeling period, right? So,
Charles 7:17
yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, 20 years sounds crazy, right? I mean, there was a couple times, you know, family members died, or pets. I think I mentioned that to you where, you know, I, you know, I teared up. I cried those those moments got me even during that time. But, yeah, over the over the last, you know, so I've been married for 23 years. My wife is wonderful, beautiful. She's a she's a one, and so she's kept me on track in a lot of ways, you know, but there's a way that I'm always like fighting against my function, even though I'm doing it, if that makes sense. And my function being like, you know, working, providing, doing what you need to do when you need to do it, for people, especially from a social perspective. But, you know, I feel like sometimes we live in this self press, hell of a world where everything is about money, you know, the capitalist dystopia, whatever that we live in here. So that has always just kind of made it to where you have to desensitize to some degree. Everybody does. It's not just me, you know, as you grow up, you become an adult, but me specifically, yeah, aside from a couple of times, you know, like really close family member or pet dying, I did not cry. Oh, probably for 20 something years. I remember a couple times when I first got married and fighting a little bit here and there, nothing crazy, but, yeah, I cried a little bit. But then that was like six months a year in after that, things kind of milled at chilled out. We got into our, like you said, got into kind of autopilot, and from there, just building companies, providing for the family, figuring out how I can, you know, hustle, do whatever I've had to to get by, which does not lend itself to much introspection, which is what I used to like to do and be involved when I was younger, hence the psychology interest and that sort of thing. Being a nine specifically, if we want to look at it from that angle, I mean, obviously nines are known for desensitizing themselves in various ways work being one of them, you know, you could call me a workaholic, that might be an accurate descriptor. It's been times when you call me an alcoholic, that might be an accurate descriptor. In this society, just various ways to numb. I really enjoyed the other nine Phil you had on the wild back where he was talking about the numbing and the way it felt. Jamie, things like Netflix or YouTube, which I can go down the YouTube private hole for hours if I let myself, I don't usually until night in the night time or evening, because I know how I can be. It's just, yeah, it's just gonna keep the cycle going. It just never ends, right? So I could keep going this forever, yeah? Well,
Josh Lavine 9:58
actually, it's funny. One of the things. Was that we talked about when we first met, was that you have this not just meandering forward way of life, but also conversationally, yeah, it's kind of like you're like, a conversational
Charles 10:10
Yeah. Don't be afraid. One difference, yeah, between the last fellows, I don't, I don't mind being interrupted, and I will interrupt. Sometimes it's a little different for me on that okay? Because I know I'm the Ender, you know,
Josh Lavine 10:22
yeah, that's a good, actually, that's a good one wing versus eight wing distinction, right there. That's
Charles 10:26
yeah, yeah, I think so yeah.
Josh Lavine 10:29
So it's very odd, the
Charles 10:31
beautiful, good meeting,
Josh Lavine 10:33
yeah, yeah, he's amazing. I agree, yeah, James is a good friend. So the Oh yeah, I wanted to ask you to clarify what, what has happened for you recently, and was there a moment in time, or was it a sort of murkier period of time in which you found yourself resensitizing? And I believe there was a moment where you cried and then tell, like, tell us about the doctor's office, or just like, what, what have been the circumstances that you've kind of come back to life? Yeah, so,
Charles 11:06
so the last few years been a little difficult. I mean, I'm moving in the middle age, which is one reason I thought it might be beneficial to get someone little older, nine on here to kind of talk about what it's been like, you know, and, yeah, maybe moving into more an assertive role over the years, and things that minds aren't typically known for. You know, am I expensive? What really struck me with your interviews was the one you do with Alex, the one, it was just beautiful, and it really helped me understand how ones are a body type, even though all the literature out there seem to describe them as head types, you know what I mean, or heart type, something in that range, and the ones are not abnegating their gut reaction. They're emotionally justifying it, they are. And they're abnegating their their logical center, typically, to do that right? Like, that's the difference, you know? Anyway, I really enjoyed that interview, and that's like, I got to reach out this guy, because we've always talked with cat paw and stuff. But sir, I am Andrew. Let's go back to what was the question? I'm sorry. I
Josh Lavine 12:04
was just gonna point that out. Yeah, no, I'm still thinking
Charles 12:06
about why I introduced myself to you and my origin story. I'm still back there. Sorry. That's such a that's
Josh Lavine 12:13
such a great moment. I just love that, because it happened with with David too, where I'd ask a question and it would almost like dissolve in his consciousness, and then, and then I'd remind him what the question was. Oh, yeah, that's right, yeah. Like, let's say, Okay, let me answer that question. So the question is, yeah, yeah, yes, yeah. Can you? Can you tell us about what has happened for you recently around your kind of Resensitization? And, yeah,
Charles 12:40
yeah. It so, you know, getting older, Middle Ages. Daughters moving out with them, you know, moved off out of city to go to college. Great time, you know, but you start to question things and realize, Oh, what is my function in this environment? Now? What am I doing? And and I had the Enneagram to help me and to play with this, but the same time, health issues were sneaking up on me that I wasn't aware of, high blood pressure, extremely high, to the point where you're getting, you know, brain fog and depression and stuff like that that I wasn't aware of. I just knew, you know, I knew what depression was. Clinically, based on my psychological studies, I knew something was a little weird. It wasn't like, extreme or anything, but there's a way to like, I it was even worse than just being a nine. There was a way that I was having difficulty feeling anything, and then feelings would start to flood in, right? Like, and that's kind of one of the definitions of depression anyway. And I know why I'm like, my life is fine. Yeah, the kids are getting older. I'm getting a little, you know, ugly or older, whatever, but it's like nothing crazy, you know. But so the funny story is, I got, I guess it's called sciatica. I just woke up one morning, my ass was hurting extremely. Couldn't even put on my own socks or shoes. And I hate being dependent other people, sure. And so my wife would have to drive me around. Helen put on my socks a bit so her she'd been pushing me for a while ago, doctor anyway, forever, but then this specifically Okay, that was it. I gotta go. Went there, and she wasn't worried about that. And by the time I got to the doctor's appointments, weeks later, my ass wasn't hurting anymore, so, but the blood pressure was 180 something over whatever I remember the second ever. But, okay, it's an extreme range, and she was concerned about that, so she got me medication starts over my diet. And I just, I love salt, tons of it. I could, you know, ramen noodles and stuff all day, you know. But they've been doing that for years, and obviously, so, so yeah, it got me on the medication, and it was, in a way, like a fog had been lifted in that regard. So, so I guess here, there's two parts to this, the feeling emotions again, but yet they were flooding out in kind of almost random ways, watching them. Movie, and just like, bawling or something. And then when I hadn't, you know, identified, really, with a character in 20 years in a movie, I must have just been watching YouTube BS or something. And now I'm getting into stories, and I'm starting to, you know, get in touch with stuff again, just because of that blood pressure issue, really, in a way, but then taking the medication out lifted the fog from it, and now it's like, more like, I can see her put a movie, or not, or I can. It's so strange that it's all related to the body and a physical health that I've been pushing down or blocking my whole life, which, in a way, is part of what a nine does. But I, I guess I just didn't see it like, I mean, it's just so close to you. Just don't know. You know. So, yeah, I don't know. I keep going all kind of directions.
Josh Lavine 15:51
One thing that, yeah, one thing that was amazing about what you just said, the the not relating to a character in a movie for 20 years is quite amazing. And off the top of my head,
Charles 16:03
I can't, not necessarily on
Josh Lavine 16:04
character, but yeah, yeah, yeah. But it just strikes me that there's some way that you, in a sense, had forgotten yourself or weren't holding your holding yourself didn't really have a clearly constellated self that you were holding in your consciousness that could be compared to a character. Because I'm sure 20 years of watching movies that there were just so fluid characters that, at least that, yeah, parts of them, at least you might have related to. And I
Charles 16:34
just found that interesting. Yeah, there's, there's a way physical perspective can be very pulled back and withdrawn, you know, and shut down and not presenting much. Never felt like that. On the inside really that much. Even when I was on autopilot, I still felt like I felt more than I showed, or something like that. If that makes sense, I used really difficult to see, yeah, yet the physical manifestation wasn't there, the willingness to kind of pull your heart out or whatever, to have it be there, like tear up in a movie, and even now, like, I'm, you know, I'm in a movie theater, something like holding the tears and just so this is nobody's looking kind of swiping away real quick, even then, It's still difficult to to present that too much,
Josh Lavine 17:22
but I can relate to that. Yeah. Well, okay, so something I want to reflect back something you said to me in our last call, which is that you had decades of putting yourself aside, that you had become a function, dad and husband specifically. And I imagine also there's a work analog. You have to fit those roles. And it's not just something that you, you thought about, you said, you just, you just fit into the groove.
Charles 17:52
Yep, going with the flow rate. Yeah. And it doesn't necessarily mean, like some people think, with nines of not putting yourself in positions of authority that you have to, I mean, sometimes to really provide out there these days, you kind of have to be assertive and put yourself in some sort of authority world, especially with as many kids as I have for right? It's very difficult to provide for them these days without, you know, moving beyond the standard nine to fives, right? So you have to do something. So, yeah, yeah, go back to what you're saying. I'm going off on thing again.
Josh Lavine 18:29
Just I was referencing your description of yourself for however, like the last 20 years or something, of fitting into the groove and fulfilling certain functions and kind of deleting yourself.
Charles 18:42
Here I am justifying it, but that's what happened, right? Yeah, yeah,
Josh Lavine 18:46
right,
Charles 18:49
yeah. I guess I was trying to present the social context or something justifying. I'm like, Well, this is why I had to do it. But, yeah, it's, it's, it's almost, is insidious, the right word. It's just so sneaky, you know, and in the way, Oh, I love that. Yeah. It's like, you're young and you have these ideas and you're he was a nine year chill. He was one surf all day. Or, like, that's my wife just live in a trailer in a desert. I would be happy as a fly on shit or something. But you start responsibilities and family, society puts pressures. And I don't know if it's a Bermuda thing, I think it is, because the way I understand, you know, threes and sixes, they could do a lot of this too. You just kind of get into this groove that you're expected to do in a way, right? And whatever that is, you know, and it shows up maybe in different ways for those different types, but you're once you kind of get in that group. Is so hard to see it, especially without that heart piece. If your heart lasts, or if you're not in touch with your heart, or you've let your health go, maybe like me and you're the end of the last 20 years, you know, where you're just so numb at the. Point that you just yeah, you lose connection with anything you may have wanted to do would be, you know, in the past, or just being a function. I guess it's kind of what I meant by that. And then you start to see yourself, you start to project on other people. Can get ugly too, or a little resentful, maybe not so ugly, but I can get frustrated the people you know at this point in my life, and I can show it, you know, and stuff like that, because I feel like, and this is me, this is not them, but I feel like they're always wanting stuff for me, always needing stuff for me, physically, emotionally, just space wise, whatever. And I don't need anything from them, right? That's, that's how I see my ego, right? That's kind of what you get into that point when you get into that group of that capitalist dystopia, like I'm the guy and everybody else you know you're coming to me, and you can start to go with family and people you really care about, right? And that's where it gets or it doesn't cultivate proper relationships. It's almost like the way I've heard the he podcast talk about the rejection types, how they're cutting certain things off and leverage and this kind of stuff. And with the eight wing, I can definitely see a lot of eight there. You know, I know, ultimately, it's not quite the same. I'm not pushing into the world by default. I am retracting from it, but I'm creating this boundary kind of like, is what I'm talking about. The rejection type does. It's like you don't cross, yes, like you don't use. This is my space. I don't cross perfectly fine. What you're doing whatever the fuck you want over there. You know, you do whatever, but leave me alone. Let me do my thing later. You know what I mean. So there's this way you start to get reception even people you love and kids that do need you and should need you, you know, where you start to realize this isn't healthy. Something's wrong. You know, pull back right now.
Josh Lavine 21:52
Yeah, this is, this is, I love, this point about the resentment that builds up when you feel like someone is asserting some obligation on you, or something like that, like you have, like you have to do something or someone, there's and whether it's you know, your partner or your kids or your work or whatever, but there's something, there's some way that, if there's something that is pulling on your energy in A way that you, in a certain sense, haven't fully consented to or brought yourself to say, say a full yes to, then it feels like an obligation, or a form of under pressure that the nine throws a very quiet rebellion against and or maybe not so quiet in your in your sense. But there's a way,
Charles 22:39
though, until they don't Yeah, until, until something builds up. And it might even just be a narrative you're telling yourself. You know when you can be realistic, but you've been not communicating it properly, and in reserving your feelings on it for so long, and come out in pretty awkward ways sometimes, yeah,
Josh Lavine 22:55
right, right. Yeah. And man, I was I wanted to just rewind it, because to use some really beautiful and stark language to describe the the numbed state that you were in, where it was basically like you. One thing that is really striking to me about numbness itself is that just be by definition of what it is, you don't notice it. That's what. That's what being numb is. It's the inability to actually notice your your sensory reality.
Charles 23:28
And so really good example, oh, go ahead. Yeah, no, actually,
Josh Lavine 23:32
I would love an example. Go ahead, yeah. A really good physical
Charles 23:34
example of this is butterflies, you know, and stomach nervousness. Because I, when I was younger, I got those a lot, like a lot. It felt like everything was kind of, you know, and sure, you know, really hated public speaking, almost the point where you could call it a public speaking disorder, in a way, where I skipped classes on those days. If you know the definition of disorders, and it comes to culture, but essentially where it's affecting your goals in your life, then it's now disordered. So it's So skipping out a class is getting lower grade, which I hated, not the best, right? So it was to that point, but as I got older, like, and realizing it recently, maybe through the Enneagram, like, what? What is being in your gut, being back in touch with your body even, mean, right? Over the past few years, trying to figure that out, yeah, I realized I haven't had butterflies in like, that same amount of time, 20 something years or forever. Anyway, you know, whatever time it was, it's just been so long I forgot what it was like. And I'm beginning those again, you know, but, but I don't look at them the same, you know, it's almost like, I think I've heard it talked about before with, like, some people, that's excitement to some people, it revs them up, and they love it. And other types, they're seeing it maybe negative, negative light, like I did, or No, I have to control that. This is about it. Nobody can see my face show any kind of fear or anything, you know. I have to keep this in learning someone to tamp it down. But it is fully tamped, I guess, right? That way, but now feeling it again and realizing that's not so bad. It's okay to be, you know, show a little flexion and stuff like that, you know. So, yeah,
Josh Lavine 25:12
right, you know, the the butterfly thing is such a cool example, because it's, it's a way that you know, when you were a kid, you experienced your your sensory reaction to the world, and that is, that is a function of the body center to actually experience your sensory response to something and the it's just such a cool example, because both nine and eight are numbing themselves in certain ways, and just the the absence of those butterflies from your life is such a cool illustration of of numbness that it's like you numbed somehow unconsciously, your response to the world and the world's impact on you, and it's very interesting to me that they're coming back now. I just find that so fascinating. Yeah,
Charles 26:04
and the other fellow talked about the numbness almost being like a buzz in the background that overrides everything. And I definitely do agree with that. I was like, Wow, that's so on point in so many ways. There is enough another kind of numbness, though, that I experienced too that's a little more dead than that even. And I'm not talking about the autopilot stuff we're talking about before, because I was very active. I was interactive. I was out there doing but, like, I said, just as a function. Yeah, like, yeah. Like, you're thinking workaholic or something just kind of like, but there's a way that I kind of that the numbness can just be this dark hole where there just really isn't anything. There's no feelers out in the world like I would normally be as a nine pre receptive. It's a way to protect yourself, I guess. But when it gets to that extreme point, it's no longer protective. You're just unaware. You know you're you're, yeah, you're in your stories, in your place, maybe. But sometimes you're just on the autopilot. You're just, or if you're laying in bed and you're just, I used to think about this space like, you know, oh, I have a superpower scenario, just shut my mind off, you know, like, and just go to sleep, right? There was times when I was working, it was racing, you know, work or stress or something, but so I could just shut it off, go to sleep. Didn't need YouTube, didn't need anything almost like that. But there's a way that you get closer connected to that shutting off, then it becomes too easy, then it's just like, almost like you're something or something, you know, yeah, I don't know whether people would have experienced for me on the outside, but that's kind of what you feel on the inside. You know? It's just that's actually
Josh Lavine 27:41
exactly what I was just wondering is, what, what do you think I would have known like if I had interacted with you? What would I have seen in that moment?
Charles 27:50
Probably me just doing something, some project or something, going through the motions. If you try to talk to me, I'd be very cut off, not responding properly. And I still tend to do that sometimes, you know, where there's almost, it's almost like that boundary just doesn't go away, even if i My heart might want to, like, you know, kids or something, or, you know, you know, I'm really, I've really been worrying about them, to think about them, but yet, now I've tamped things down because I'm worrying about them, but Now they're coming to me, wanting to talk to me, and I'm not even responding to it properly because I'm so okay. So this is kind of, maybe this is one way to put it there. There's a way that, and this may be all night, I think, but me specifically, where feelings, even good feelings, other people's feelings and good feelings can be too much for me, right? And scary, in a way, if you want to call it scary, I guess it's more just like invasive, maybe scary somewhere in that range, it's just too much. So, yeah, but here's the thing, like, too much is scary and whatever. But too little, I can't function right? So there has to be this medium ground, right, where I can be present and responsive to those feelings, to my heart, to people around me, their heart or their needs or whatever. Logically, you know, not feeling like this is too much, and I'm starting to get you, like, over sensitized, too much sensory input, but not allowing myself to drop into that hole where I'm unresponsive almost, or overly stoic or something. Really see myself. Yeah, it's like, it's like, there is this equilibrium that a nine is looking for, I guess so. I guess it is a nine thing. Maybe there's this equilibrium that you look at all types of you're looking for, some sort of equilibrium. But as a nine, it's that, that it's almost related to No. Sensory but just the entire world, you know, just everything being either too much or too little. You know, too much is stressful, and then you start to drop into that pit of too little, and you have to bring yourself back up. And it's just become more easy for me, in this regard, over the years or recent years to bring myself back up by trying to be more in touch with my heart. I guess, if that makes sense, I think the heart kind of is that middle ground. And I've heard people talk about, like, your cuts down here, your heads down here, your heart's kind of there is kind of that way, you know, it's funny that that kind of works as an example, that there's kind of way the heart can pull you back up out of that hole, or that gut, you know, you know, and the head, you know, the heart can kind of bring you back down over the head when you're being too. I really like the spot in the ambulance, by the way. First I heard that was a few years ago. This guy, Tim, taught about it. It was really excellent. I've loved your talks on that recently. Too orange, right? Too much in the orange. So the heart brings it back down to anyway, the heart, I think, is what kind of drives the world in the way that it is kind of in the middle in that regard. Anyway, I don't get theory or anything, but
Josh Lavine 31:16
there's something really interesting about what you're saying this, this too much, too little thing. And it's bringing up, it's, it does, it does strike me that there is something really true about nine seeking a kind of Goldilocks, perfect little sliver of like the world is impacting me and affecting me, like, just enough, bringing myself out, just enough, and there's this kind of perfect meeting point, but it is a kind of teetering, like thin edge of a blade or something like that, or like a unstable equilibrium one
Charles 31:52
wings to that frustration. Yeah, they're kind of doing that fluctuation thing a little more in real time, you know?
Josh Lavine 32:00
Yeah, actually, I was just thinking for you, like, it's more like a drop
Charles 32:03
in a pool, you know, yeah.
Josh Lavine 32:07
Like, the way that I'm conceiving of eight, nine and one these days is that nine and eight are both types that their strategies are to numb themselves, uh, nine kind of numbs itself in response to the world. Eight numbs itself preemptively so the world can't get to it, and then the one is sort of an inability to numb itself, and that's what creates all the frustration, because anything that gets in feels like an irritant or a contaminant. But what's really striking to me about you is that with the as an as a nine with an eight wing, without that frustration effect, there's like, it's kind of like a double numbness that you can get into. That's that feeling of of living death that you that you say much, yeah,
Charles 32:48
there's a lot of things, yeah, yeah, yeah. Social type. I'm so hyper aware of it. I think too. I mean, there's sure okay. Self prayers is a little more in tune with this, right? And it would be more drastic if I was self pressed first. My wife is self pressed first out a lot of ways, but with the social there's a way that I'm seeing it in real time, but like, I'm in this hole, unable to reach out at home and interact with that person properly when I'm in that right stress mood, I would call that stress. Yeah, that's the response to that, yeah.
Josh Lavine 33:31
So speak, bringing social in for a second, and then talking about, like the last couple of years for you, of being on the other side of having started to resensitize yourself and on, numb yourself. And I want to, I want to talk about your tattoos. Are you? Are you willing to go there? Sure. Okay, so, so my understanding you correct me if I'm wrong, is that you just recently started getting them?
Charles 33:57
Well, I got my first one. I was 15. I started getting ones that are a little more unsocially acceptable in places, I guess,
Josh Lavine 34:03
there you go. There.
Charles 34:04
I know this. These days, it's gotten a little more murky in their regard, but Right, like, I still tell my kids, like I let them all get their first one when they're 16. I'd pay for it. I thought it was a great way to, like, kind of they all seem to want them to get them into it. I'm just gonna help guide you so not getting like, lips on your ass or something. But let's see. But let's see, okay, you know, something like that. But, um, okay, so there's this way that it's got more acceptable. I still tell them, Don't, you know, don't put on your hand, your neck or something yet, interface, you know, you still need to get on the work world. Who knows what you're going to need in that regard. Socially, I'm always worried about that, right? So, but I got, I took myself to this point where it wasn't as important anymore. I'm done with the corporate world. You know, we can do a lot of stuff with clients remotely. I don't have to have camera all the time where people might be worried or judge me, you know, that sort of thing, really, why I've been getting them more and more and more. And some have had some relatively visible places like these, these bands here. You know, that's my 4k Each one represents one of them. You know, they were in one butterfly with Hawk anyway. So I've had these for you know, started these, like 1516, years ago and stuff. But, yeah, the the neck has been maybe the past four or five years, okay, yeah. But this hand one is actually just this. This is my wife on his anniversary. Well, stuff like his really the family or friends. I've got the Scottish crest here, yeah, go ahead, yeah.
Josh Lavine 35:27
I was just gonna say, for people who are not watching the video, listen to the podcast. Can you just describe especially, like you have Harriet Tubman on one side of her face, right? Yeah. I
Charles 35:38
got that in 2019 and then actually just did this kind of like Halo thing that that was cool, like, around it,
Josh Lavine 35:45
so it's literally, like, up your neck and up into your cheek, like the face of Harriet Tubman is, yeah, yeah. And what really struck me about that, other than just it is striking it period, but that you, you said you live in a somewhat conservative neighborhood, and this is right. And then, yeah, sure, yeah. I mean,
Charles 36:12
I don't do the Trump thing, but yeah, yeah,
Josh Lavine 36:15
what I'm point Yeah? Well, I'm just pointing to the your your willingness to locate yourself about something that you care about, a context where it wouldn't necessarily fly socially. And being a social type, being a social time, there you go. Yeah, and I find that so interesting. I mean, that's a it's just a very clear point of evidence around the transformation you're undergoing. And, yeah, go ahead, there's
Charles 36:42
a way that, you know, this kind of stuff is signaling in a way, like, here's the Scottish clan thing, here's, you know, here's Harry Tubman, you know, the heroes of the Underground Railroad, and how awesome that is. And I really value freedom and stuff, you know, eight, nine, that range. Obviously, that's huge for me. Autonomies. Do you do your thing? But I'm not going to put anyway. So, yeah, I love that. The other thing is, too is learning to have people that you can they don't have to be perfect, that you can look up to. You know, I've always told the kids over the years, no one should be your hero. You know, no one's worthy of that. In the way people are just people, and we're all just a bunch of, you know, dumb monkeys, in the sense, just trying to figure shit out, right? Not so nice perspective for the last 20 years, okay, but, but now I'm like, heroes are fine, you know? And I've got this, and I'm tying more things into the family and history and stuff like that. And then my anniversary of my wife on my hand roses, you know, roses were at her wedding, and two of them describe her for food. Stop looking. But, yeah, there's, there's a sense now that I just don't care as much if someone doesn't agree with me, that's fine, you know, not as like, sensitive to it or something. And I don't have to be. I'm getting older. Crest here. I might be one of those old guys, you know, when I'm 70, just Coronavirus thing, what the hell I want? You know, I don't know, starting down that path, you know? I mean, I don't know if this is growth, necessarily, but this definitely feels good. You know, something I haven't you know, that hasn't been easy. You know, over the years, social self pressing, that sort of thing. Because there's a way to self press ties in that too, right? Like you're very how you self press often to provide my social standing and be a provider and stuff. And then I it goes back and forth.
Josh Lavine 38:40
Well, it certainly feels like a story of individuation. And obviously, you know, saying I care about this and and then actually marking yourself on your body with it's very permanent,
Charles 38:55
a stamp of caring. Yeah, yeah. In all honesty, though, and I do try to find something that I like that I think could be important, not just submitting this frivolous tattoo, like maybe some first ones, like I want to drink or something, but I, I It's very physical for me. There's a reason I like to go relatively often. Here I get to go to my birthday or Christmas or something, you know, we give to myself sort of near wife. Let's begin. We've been raised so long we really don't buy each other's presents. Very often, this game each other, since that's kind of my thing. Yeah, go do that for your birthday. But the pain itself is almost like a bringing you back to reality, or back up out of that hole, back out of that hole, I guess is a better way to describe it, not so much down, back up, um, and not, not like the mind numbing pains, like I jacked up my neck, falling off mechanical bull, and I get these really serious headaches, not that kind of stuff where it puts you into this pain hole, but that, you know, the prickly kind of. Like back to reality. Sort of pain, another thing to be grabbed for me. But I love the dental hygiene pics. I like this kind of stuff. It just, there's a way that That pain just is good somehow, really, it kind of pulls you back up and so it makes me more aware of my feelings of my presence, my physical body in this world, too. And that's really why I've been getting more and more these days. It's not like I have a need to, like, show everybody who I am too much. I mean, I there is a little bit of that, you know, but it's more of that. I think
Josh Lavine 40:38
that is just such an interesting frame that is, I mean, it's about the ex, it's about the sensory experience of getting the tattoo that feels like just feel good calls you back to life. You're back
Charles 40:46
to life that day. Yeah, it's just without, you know, resorting to some sort of drugs or something like a note in the teen years. Yep, right?
Josh Lavine 40:54
Yeah, yeah, not to get too dark or whatever. But I find like so, you know, people who go really numb or dissociate sometimes will cut themselves, you know, and it seems like a much more extreme version of it's like to feel something, yeah, no, right? And, you know, if we, we, let's put this on a spectrum of health like that seems to me to be a self destructive kind of unhealthy behavior that would be useful to not do, but it is serving a similar function. Yeah, what's that? Yeah,
Charles 41:29
I won't put too much judgment on that, because I've known some people, yeah, done that. I've actually never done that, yeah? I guess this could be similar, right? Yeah, absolutely. This is a little more social. I'm out there. I'm interacting with an artist,
Josh Lavine 41:40
yeah? I mean, it feels, it feels like a, at the very least, in the same ballpark. It's serving a similar function, you know,
Charles 41:48
yeah, yeah, it is, it's, it's,
Josh Lavine 41:50
it's a, it is crazy to make about that before, yeah, yeah, yeah,
Charles 41:56
it is. Well, something else I do that's a little less drastic and less dark, is I've been trying to use my sense of smell a little more. That's something that I think humans are, like, of all our senses, that's probably our least. The most of us are the least tied to I think it's funny, because, you know, and this is 20 something year old psychology, but I'm learning that the that the sense of smell is the most closely tied to the emotional processing portions of your brain. Okay, that's right, yeah. So that's why some people really hate a smell, really love a smell. But the problem is it's almost like a learned response, just like that learned response to the butterflies in the stomach. So they've never found a universal smell to disperse crowds. Because, you know, even corpses and skunks, some people like that smell like, I like the smell of skunks reminds me road trips in the summer as a kid, but, you know, but I've been learning to be more in touch with that sensory it's been kind of ignored for some unless something like was plastic, you know, like someone's perfume store or something actually did die in the bathroom. But, um, yeah, so just smelling, you know, produce, versus just feeling it and looking at it to judge if I want to buy it. Or, you know, I used to joke that my wife and daughters were sniffers, because, like, the sniff candles, just smelling that, allowing myself to, oh, what is that? Trying to understand, what that smell is, versus just like ignoring it, or, oh, there's smell, yeah, yeah. It's very similar in that regard to me. It's a sensory thing, in a way, it makes me feel more in touch with reality.
Josh Lavine 43:36
Yeah, yeah. Um, can you talk about your relationship with anger?
Charles 43:42
Yeah? Um, oh, well, it's something that so frustration, I actually look at as more undesirable. So I don't like to use to say, Oh, I don't like that or this or be frustrated in real time, because I feel like that's an edge that I have to deal with other people. Quite often, it's that kind of frustration edge, it just seems like to me, and this is not to be too judgmental, but just seems like sometimes people are overly frustrated externally, or just kind of shitting their feelings or emotions all over me, so that I have an issue with sometimes anger itself, like, if I use it, is definitely more of a tool for me. But then again, that is something I am in my mid 40s. You know, I've had to be, I think I am kind of assertive in general, but I've had to learn to even evolve that even more over the years, that I do use it and I don't have a really bad relationship with it. Day to day. I'm mostly not presenting a lot of anger, but I'm presenting assertiveness. And so yeah, I guess it's kind of difficult for me to differentiate those two sometimes. Yeah, that is kind of a ninth thing, right? I. Like, what's being assertive, what's being angry? Because sometimes it takes that anger in there to wake you up to become assertive, right? And that's kind of, I'm talking about too back again, not to certain background, tiring the other, but where sometimes things feel like too much, right? And you gotta watch it. Gotta bring it back down, so I can see myself in real time, sometimes getting a little too assertive and pulling it back, versus, like, what a nine more immature 98 or something might do, where they're just kind of like, bam, with the full force of it, and then they leave, or something, you know, full force, oh yeah, you know. I mean coming all at once, you know, and then they're gone. Because now they feel stupid. They feel whatever. It's like, see it, you know? So it's literally, it's more healthy, I guess, not to say that keep I'm growing and everything's roses, but it's more like I can show it. Be assertive, but not go overboard, you know,
Josh Lavine 45:55
go back. Man, I have a nine wing eight that's very close to me, whose identity I will reveal, but I that tracks, man, that is, you know, like, the that's really funny, the brunt force of the gate wing. Yeah, that only comes out occasionally and sometimes, yeah, seemingly out of nowhere, and then all of a sudden, it's like, Oh no, I'm just, you know, like, what? Well, yeah, it's
Charles 46:18
kind of like, too. It's like a lot of people, and this is the 98 fault to some degree. I'm not your friend, but a 98 it's probably their fault. Mine specifically, um, where you're not giving people a lot to go, you're not giving them that frustration, right? The most other types have it, at least in their wing, or that are giving that kind of thing. Like, no, I don't like that, but you're not usually giving that. Like, you know, you're usually giving like, no, whatever. It doesn't matter. And so people take you at your word. And then next thing you know, you've built up this, this line of violation, you know, that comes out because it's like, you're not seeing me. Well, you didn't give them anything to see, you know, often, so you kind of have to take some
Josh Lavine 47:03
responsibility. So there's another way to say that, like the fact that you're not expressing or sometimes even in touch with your frustration, is that that line of violation continues to get crossed, and there's a backlog that develops, and then at a certain point, you know, a straw that breaks the camel's back, and then there's the explosion, or if maybe, well, yeah, and then there's explosion. That's
Charles 47:26
the way I understand it. And I'm just to put this in perspective, you know, because I want to get into specifics of people and stuff. But I've never been violent. I'm not a violent person at all. So I mean, like exploding. I just mean like saying what I actually feel in the moment, coming out, possibly, is yelling, you know, or something, or what I consider yelling other people might not even consider, but it's like it's just feels like too much. It's like a flood of too much that the nine has been feeling, maybe for weeks or months, or, who knows, you know. And that's kind of what it is. It's giving somebody back too much all at once, so they can't process it, because the nine hasn't been processing they're kind of shitting it back out in the world to help them process it, and then they're going to feel bad about it, eliminate on that for the next six years in bed. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Josh Lavine 48:19
You know one thing I'm struck with about our conversation, and actually, your conversational style is not just, it's somewhat meandering quality, but it's, it's the volume of your voice stays relatively low and even as you're talking, and then, and then, every once in a while when you get animated about something, it becomes a little louder, and you kind of come back to a resting point of like, kind of, it seems like where you're at now, and that, that's a that's one clue, I think. Like if I were typing you, for example, from scratch, that would be a clue to me that you're a nine, but I'm curious if you have a relationship with the volume of your voice, or if that's too abstract a question,
Charles 49:10
yeah, I think often unaware of it, when I'm allowing myself to get into something emotional. I guess maybe it's kind of talking about the thinking I'm yelling or or, yeah, when I'm putting more inflection, maybe getting higher, that's kind of normal, you know, so people do, but there's a way that I feel like I'm being too much, maybe, and then, yeah, it's going to pull back down. But it's instinctive. I'm not really sitting here thinking that and processing that, you know, like some people might do. It's just more like, just go back to that equilibrium, the resting state, you know? Yeah, I think it's more instinctive. It's like, the way I talk, it's like, that's where the meandering comes, comes out is, you know, it's coming from the. That it's a little slower, and I'm trying to put it into perspective, which means having to tie feelings, or your feelings and thoughts presented to you in real time. Somehow that makes me meander, because sometimes you know it's getting jumbled. What should be spoken and what should you know, what's getting across the point, and let's just having to make something to follow this trail.
Josh Lavine 50:25
So the meander, as I'm hearing you, it's kind of like the meandering is like you're sensing what context to provide, or what would be useful to say initially, yeah, and it's kind of like you're experiencing an inner swirl of, of all of that. And so you're kind of trying to verbalize it, or or, or track that in real time, and it becomes, and it just the verbal swirling mimics the inner swirling, yeah, in a certain sense, yeah, great.
Charles 50:55
And I think this plays more into having, you know, being a social type as well. The Nines doing that because they're a gut type. And, you know, ultimately, nine does want to be seen and connected, but a social type specifically, obviously wants that. This was the way sometimes you're getting ahead of yourself with the anticipation of it, you know, in the conversation, anticipation of somebody understanding you. And you're starting to get high off that kind of thing or something, and then you're starting to overshare. They gotta pull up. You know, we all learn to do this as we became adults, right? But that's essentially the feel of it. You know, thoughts are coming from so this is kind of describe it too, because I kind of see the gut types is maybe the unconscious. I've heard it somebody. I didn't come up with this, but the heart type is like the subconscious. The head type, just like the conscious, right? Conscious has its place. It's like sequential problem solving, you know. And the heart has its place, you know. It's like the way you spread and tightly. In psychology, we learn this is also between psychology, but we learn that you can't make a decision without the emotional parts of your brain functioning properly. So you literally can't decide what cereal to buy without that. So, um, sure, that kind of does that balancing. And the gut is like this, where the not the real you, but the animalistic or something, the essence of yourself on this planet. I don't want to get spiritual, like the essence or something, someone might get that confused with, like spirituality, but like the core of you. And so I explained to my kids sometimes, like, where do you think thoughts come from? Right? Sometimes you're laying in their bed, these thoughts are just like, blah, blah, blah, playing over and they're coming from that. They're coming from this deep down, up. You know what? I mean? They're not just like, you know, and they seem random, like dreams, but dreams, essentially, they're doing the same thing. They're coming from something that your body, your mind, and think they're putting this thing together. And it may not make sense, I don't. I'm not a dream interpreter or whatever, necessarily, but there's a way that your body's using this to process right in your mind. Anyway, back to what I was saying, and here I got lost. The meandering too far.
Josh Lavine 53:07
I was a little bit well we it's fascinating because we started with the like a distinction about how your verbal swirling mimics yes and inner swirling, yeah. And that was such a that was like, couldn't have been a better demonstration of that. Well,
Charles 53:26
there you go, right? I gave you the logic of it and the example at the same time, but, yeah. But that's kind of, you know, these things are just bubbling up from somewhere. And then when you're trying to present yourself in a palatable form format, like as a social type or whatever, make a connection. Or is any type of whatever you're trying to do, and me specifically, in that regard, be palatable, make the connection. There's a way that you know it all is like kind of meandering, because you are trying to create this full context. You're trying to give them the flood of everything that led you to that or something, especially here talking about myself, this is a really strange thing for me, but so yeah, I kind of like, you know what? I mean? Yeah, a little I'm used to this. But usually when I'm talking to most folks, it's about work or about day to day. You know,
Josh Lavine 54:17
I don't know. I have a question. Yeah, are you? Do you have any motivation to try to be less meandering or to be more concise
Charles 54:35
sometimes or feel kind of annoying someone need it? Yeah? Okay, yeah. Like, if, if I know, in this I'm probably doing more than interrupting. But like, in like, a business call or something, the client and they, they stop, like, Oh, I was going too far into whatever, you know. So in those cases, yeah, but most of the time, no, I, I guess not. I mean, it does kind of create the story, right? And. Is actually listening, or if they're actually listening, it's a nice way to vent, maybe, like getting a tattoo or smelling fruit, you know, it's a way to kind of connect, yeah, if they're really listening, giving me proper feedback, and I'm not just
Josh Lavine 55:14
yeah, it's kind of like I'm just comparing, like my experience, of my of myself, is that it's I'm, in some way, always monitoring how I'm communicating, and especially how my communication is landing on especially as a three, and there's a competence orientation to wanting the sentence that's coming out of my mouth to be as On the nose as possible, without any, without too much, well, meandering, I guess, and, and so I have, yeah, so there's, there's like, there's actually, I experience a genuine inner motivation to Be clear and kind of, and, uh, pointed. And it's and I'm just struck by like, what it seems that you're describing is, for the most part, like you don't have that motivation. It seems like a kind of inner freedom around the way you're expressing yourself.
Charles 56:18
Yeah, I mean, there is a relaxedness to it, right? And the ability relax,
Josh Lavine 56:24
that's there we go, a relaxedness, yeah, that's the word I was looking for,
Charles 56:28
because if you are really attuned to the control of it, you can't be really attuned to the controls, but that way to be relaxed. So that's a nine eight thing or something, but there are nine, but there's a way that you're going to have to kind of, I guess, probably more of a nine eight thing, yeah, because nine months to have that withdraw, pause, to process it and present it more accurately as best they can, according to their competence, but with me, and I would guess this is probably true for most 98 yeah, there's just not. It's just it's okay, because if you're not focused to be as calm and cool as 98 is trying to be all the time, and he is half the time, right? There just can't be that kind of attunement to frustration or meticulousness, you know. And, you know, I have a three fix, but it's the last one, so I definitely there's a way I want to be seen sometimes, like I'm not really comfortable just putting this blanket up here. I mean, you know, this camera, you know, there's a way that I kind of have but, but I didn't allow myself to present that until now, because we're talking about, you know, I'm wanting to show that I do have that it's just, it's not something that is going to be the first concern. You know what? I mean, it's just like, it's okay. This makes sense. This got it done. Josh is waiting for me. Let's put this up to block the light. You know what I mean? Oh yeah, it's like going with it's going with the flow. You know, it's going with the flows, like it's been trying to say in it. I think nine eight in particular, I think I heard David say this one time. All the, all three of the attachment types have this thing with being calm and cool. They think that's cool. But nine eights, I think, are like the worst. They have this desire to be like, you're not gonna affect me, right when they are, because they're still poor, and that's why they're having those deep holes and, you know, type thing we're just talking about, yeah, how are you gonna be cool if you're worried about, you know, being too meticulous, totally.
Josh Lavine 58:41
No, that makes total sense to me. Yeah, I've heard David say, I love how he says that the eight wing on the gives the nine permission to be as nine as it wants to be. And there's, like, there's, there's a kind of, there's the nine wing is both, is both solid with the eight wing, but absorptive, like leading with absorption, but has, like the solid barrier of the rejection object relation, kind of, oh, there's
Charles 59:07
a way that it goes at the same time, two ways on that too. So, like, some some types, and I forget who maybe it is, recent Hudson called a nine, eight, the referee. I've also heard it called the mountain. The mountain is what you're speaking to. Now that kind of like, here's the boundary. This is Nine land. That's your crazy land. Here's that boundary. But then the referee, right? And I think this might even be more observable in a social type like me, I suppose. Imagine a scene like this, writing in a minivan with like 50 kids, like I've done so many times in my life, screaming and all the crazy stuff, and, you know, the wife's frustrated, not happy and around some road trips supposed to be fun. I'm on vacation and I'm having to check emails because clients are emailing for some reason. Now, you might pick the day that they shouldn't be whatever. And when the kids poke in or fight the other one, or hits the other one, or something, you know, referees popping it, you. You know, there's this way that the eight pops in when something is too much, or something is is infringing on their nine land. Something crossed that wall, that boundary, the wall wasn't enough that day, or it didn't work that day. But now and now it's now. It's asserting that, that autonomy into the world. It's asserting that control. And I used to think like, oh, it's, I'm like, I'm doing it for your best interest. You guys got to be chilled, but being like that, don't do that to your sister. But I had to realize the Enneagram, that that instinct is me doing it for me initially, and I can, you know, pull back and be the grown up, right? But that initial impulse, that's a selfish thing, you know. So there is a way that also the eight gets the knight permission to be as nine as they want, yeah, but there's also a way that the eight does protect the knight somewhat too, right? As an act of protection, not just the defensive all the time. It's not the, you know, and a 98 is going out in the world asserting their autonomy or control. They're they are withdrawing, and they're setting up that boundary. But occasionally that assertion does have to happen to protect that boundary. It's like setting the army across the castle wall to do something or something, because, you know, the wall is not going to keep up with the Tourette's turrets or something. So, yeah, anyway, yeah, yeah. But
Josh Lavine 1:01:26
that was amazing. You know, it's, it's what's so cool. As meandering as sometimes you can be, you also have this capacity to be extremely clear about your types for, I mean, that was extremely clear and well articulated what you said.
Charles 1:01:41
And yeah, good five, six years whatever in the making, trying to grab sure, because, yeah, this is so much deeper than your typical stuff, like MBTI we're talking about. There is just so much more to it. I know it's not scientific and all that. Not fine with that, you know. But there's a no Personality Typing is really when you think about it, that's what I learned way back. It's like a lot of it is subjective, and it always will be, but the Enneagram just, I know, and this is why you're probably into it, and I know that's why a lot of people I taught her into it. It's, it's something deeper, you know, than most personality systems do anyway. So yeah, I've just beamed this stuff up so sometimes I can feel something makes sense, yeah,
Josh Lavine 1:02:27
well, I'm noticing the time, and I just want to check in with you. If there's anything that we haven't covered that you definitely want to
Charles 1:02:35
hit, you know, I don't think so. I think you've been a really, you know, great talking partner, listener, and allowing me to kind of go off of my things, you know, and still kind of keep me in check. So, no, I appreciate, I think we did great. That's a good intro to what it's like to be this guy,
Josh Lavine 1:02:55
somewhat. Yeah, what's this been like for you to be interviewed?
Charles 1:03:00
You know, a little different, um, the only person really talked like this to really like my kids or my wife, you know, about stuff like this, or like, you know, stuff just I, you know, I'm friendly and, you know, sociable in that way. I like to go out. I like to go out to eat a lot, all the time, just to get that little kind of social thing. But it's more just like pleasantries, you know, it's too much deep stuff, so it's nice to kind of try to dive in. So that was fun. Yeah, great. Unusual, but great. Yep,
Josh Lavine 1:03:39
cool. Well, I am. This is so cool. It's amazing how I love doing these interviews with people who have worked with the Enneagram and cultivated a sense of their interiority. And it's just amazing to hear you articulate with such clarity your inner experience of being a nine wing aide. So yeah, I just really appreciate you being the experience, though, but that's part of that's kind of part of it. It's the form and the content. You know, it's not just
Charles 1:04:12
Yeah, preparing would help, because it's gonna be some gut talk if we're doing this right.
Josh Lavine 1:04:18
Yeah? You were like, yeah. I was like, Is there anything, yeah, just to be clear, like for the listeners, you know, we in our pre, pre show talk was like, should you know, do you want to prepare or anything? And you like, No, I think I just want to do it. How I do everything else, which is basically to wing
Charles 1:04:34
it, yeah? So I do client presentations and everything. Yeah, cool. Well, I appreciate you, but I really appreciate your stuff. And, well, I heard, before we get off real quick, I heard that you're doing that new Enneagram school. That sounds pretty cool. I think I went on your website, so my check that out the learning the centers, but you're I've learned this ass backwards, you know, types first on the internet, like a lot of people do. And. Really do think that learning the centers has been my focus the past year, so it's really been helpful, like I said, Alex's talk, and just that kind of like pain is all into better perspective, makes a lot worse, sure. Anyway, yeah, I might check it out. But yeah, appreciate you, man. I sure you're done. Yep, thank
Josh Lavine 1:05:18
you very much. And yeah, thank you for doing this interview. Really appreciate it. Yeah, you bet you
