Nancy 0:00
Think the blessing of the three is having the confidence to go after something that I don't think I'm particularly good at sciences, but that three like cockiness, where you're like, I can do anything like, I don't think most people would go after a degree where they're like, I am not good at like, I'm not good at this, but I'm gonna go after it, because I know if I work hard enough, it'll probably work out for me.
Josh Lavine 0:29
Welcome to another episode of what it's like to be you. I'm Josh Lavine, your host today. My guest is Nancy Walter, and Nancy is a co host on the big hormone Enneagram podcast has been for since the beginning, and she's also a self pres, social type three with a four wing, not 369 tri fix, so very, very similar typing to me, with the exception that I'm social self pres, and the order for me is 396 the order for Nancy is 369 This interview was fascinating on many levels, Nancy is oh and actually, I want to say this up front. This is not an episode to listen to with children or if you are sensitive to content like suicidal ideation or severe mental health struggles or sexual topics like sugaring, Nancy has led a fascinating life, and she really struggled with a severe mental health condition for a really long time, and throughout her childhood, it was very confusing and very frustrating and led to some suicidal thoughts, which we Explore, and a number of interesting later in life revelations about who she is, what she wants to be, that kind of make her a three. But what's interesting about this interview is how, because of Nancy's mental health struggles, her story as a three is somewhat un stereotypic, and I really like exploring these kinds of on stereotypical stories that illuminate or help us get a little further closer into the core of what three really is. So we explore a lot of the similar three themes, like discovering who you really are, the importance of being good at something, feeling like you're good at something. For three is the transition from needing to be good at something to just pursuing something because you love it, which is something that Nancy started to do in the last couple years. Very cool. And one thing to mention about this conversation is that we are catching Nancy at a moment where she was just two weeks after landing in the United States having moved back from the Netherlands. She moved to the Netherlands to pursue graduate school, and also it was a big life vision, dream of hers and her husband's to go live there. And it just didn't work out because of some logistical things and practical details and visa struggles and etc, etc, and that was a very painful thing to have to regroup. And so Nancy is a little bit licking her wounds and regrouping, and she now has a plan for what she's doing next, but here she is in this somewhat sensitive moment of reflection. So I really loved this conversation. Nancy's really funny, she's really saucy, and she kind of, she's really good at poking people, including me. And I just you know from the point of view of exploring what three really is, and contrasting my story as a three with her story as a three, and these three themes of like fulfilling your potential, discovering who you really are, lighting the inner fire, all these things are really salient throughout her story. And really think you'll enjoy this conversation. One final thing to mention is that Nancy's story pivots around a really important road trip that she took a few years ago in which she chose to live. So with that as context, here's Nancy I want to talk about I want to talk about your road trip, but I want to talk about it first by setting it up like, can you tell us about what your childhood was like and what and just being depressed for as long as you were, and then my understanding is that the road trip was the first time where you basically said, I am going To choose to actually live and participate here in this world. And it was kind of it was a major life turning point for you. That's my understanding. Yeah.
Nancy 4:29
So go ahead and
Josh Lavine 4:31
one other thing I'll say is my sense from our last conversation is that you consider the mental health challenges that you've had in a totally separate category from the enrim, yeah, and so. And I find that interesting, and the quality of your condition, or I'd like, I want you to put your words to it in relation to you being a three. I'm interested in the intersection of that, if you have words for it. But let's start with like being a kid and. Then and then going on the road trip.
Nancy 5:05
Well, it all started on November 6, 1995 um, just kidding. So the I'm not 100% sure like how to contextualize this for you. Um, do I guess I can start by saying that I really struggled with mental health as a child. Yeah, since when for how? Yeah, since when I was like, as far as I can remember. So since I was like two, so it started with more anxiety symptoms and turned into depression pretty quickly. So I experienced depression as young as maybe eight, nine, but I didn't, you know at that point, you don't know what's going on. You just, you know, think you're just sad. So yeah, I think I struggled with it pretty much my whole life. You know, for those out there that are interested, I would self diagnose myself as on the autism spectrum, but haven't been able to get a formal diagnosis for multiple reasons, but not the least of which, it's expensive as fuck. But I was never tested. I was a child, so I just kind of raw dog to anxiety and depression. As a kid, no medication,
no therapy. I don't know what to say. I grew up in the,
excuse me, I grew up in the Presbyterian Church. So there was a lot of like, pray away your feelings, kind of thing. And if any of these feelings, like you're not a good enough Christian, kind of thing,
Josh Lavine 7:00
that worked for you. And, oh
Nancy 7:03
yeah, it's, I am cured. Actually, I prayed once to God, and I was like, Wow, I'm happy now. Nothing ever bothers me. Yeah, when 10 out of 10 would totally recommend Christianity for mental health, I actually so here's a good little three story of like me being like a little like self press three, I got caught smoking weed one time. How old were you? Oh, maybe 15. Okay, not super young, but young enough Stay away from drugs kids. Anyway, so I my parents sent me to a therapist, but it was a Christian therapist. Okay, I put on such a good show like I, as a 15 year old, knew that I was fucked up, like I was, like, I am not right in the head. Something is wrong here, but I wasn't vulnerable enough to, like, tell anybody or show it like nobody knew. Oh, that's good, yeah, like, a couple people probably knew. But, like, not really, you know what I mean. And so I went to this therapist, and, like, I was talking to her, and I was trying to be honest, but like, I just, I, like, couldn't be, like, vulnerable, like, when I would talk about my emotions as a child, like, it was very, like, stilted, and I still get that way sometimes, like, I'll talk about my emotions as if they're over here. But it was worse as a kid. And so she, like, at the second or third session, she was like, Nancy, I don't even know why you're here. Like, you don't have anything wrong with you. You're good to go. Like, just don't come back. And I was like, looking back, I was so close to offering myself at that point. Wow. Trigger warning. Sorry, people. I think about that therapist so much. I don't remember her name. I don't remember what she looks like at all. But I'm like, ma'am. I was like, ready to go. I was ready to go. And you were like, bye, bye, lady. So yeah, when you say, when
Josh Lavine 9:09
you say, you were ready to go, I do actually want to get more texture on that. Like, what do you mean?
Nancy 9:19
I mean, I was ready to, like, not live anymore. I
Josh Lavine 9:26
was ready. That's right, yeah. And, and you'd been having, like, suicidal ideation for a while, right? And, yeah,
Nancy 9:34
probably since I was 12 or 13. You're right, right, yeah. So most, most of my, like, teenage hood was heavy ideation, sure, like, I had a plan, written notes, whole nine yards so, and I was, like, close to peak, um, like, depression, when she when. When the lady sent me out of her office
Josh Lavine 10:01
is amazing. And so, so, so do you remember your motive, or, like, what was going through your head in that session, or in those sessions?
Nancy 10:12
I was, I was really insulted. I don't know why insulted was what I felt, but and I so anybody who struggled with mental health probably knows, like it's a like remembering your childhood is a bit like looking into fog, like it's I remember bits and pieces, but I don't really remember it. So just keep that in mind when I'm talking timelines are really mixed up. Okay, I don't have full memory of it. But, yeah, I was really insulted. I It felt I felt really hurt because, and I felt like I couldn't be helped, because it was like the one chance I felt like I had at really getting help, because I knew I needed help, but I didn't know how to ask. And I was like, Oh, thank God. Like someone's gonna see through this, and she didn't
Josh Lavine 11:05
okay. And I
Nancy 11:07
was like, oh, so, like, it's my fault that people are seeing through this. And as a 15 year old, what do you do with that information? Like, you can't be like, Why do I block out my like, you need someone with you for that experience, like, so let me
Josh Lavine 11:24
just get it right. And I understand that the memory is a little foggy, but so it's kind of like, there you are in a therapy session when you're really young. You are really depressed. You're aware that you're depressed. You're aware that you are, in your words like, really fucked up. And you go to a therapist and put on a show that presents as, like the picture of health,
Nancy 11:52
pretty much, and,
Josh Lavine 11:53
and she's like, Oh, you're great. Like, no problem. See you later. And that is the thing that insults you like because she just didn't like, it's almost like you were testing the therapist in a certain way. Like, does she pass the test of seeing through my presentation? Not that that was a conscious motive, but like, the fact that she didn't was a disappointment to you. Yeah,
Nancy 12:21
yeah, yeah, it was a bit like a test. It was a bit like a test, because it's interesting you say that, because I think the people who, like, had really, like I had, like, latched on to in my like, there were a couple friends that I had that knew how bad it was, or, you know, close to how bad it was, they could figure it out pretty quick upon meeting me, but it was probably because they were all so depressed, so they were probably like, clocked me, right? So I guess it was a bit of a test of like, how do you see this? Do you see what's going on? Because if you don't, I don't think you can be here with me.
Josh Lavine 13:00
Amazing. Okay, it's, I'm just, it's where my mind is going is think about my experience in therapy once, which I'll actually, I'm happy to share that, but later, yes, and also a recent client that I met, or a potential client that I met who was like, very obviously, three right away, and the over the course of our conversation, I mean, he presented with this just absolute, like, I like, I don't want to reveal any details about him, but he presented in like, kind of like you said, it covered. He's got it covered. Like, you know, he really wants a coach. But also, this is all the stuff that he's doing, and he's, like, thought about all these things, and these are the books he's read and stuff like that. And there was a way that there's there was this it felt like he was negotiating, trying to hold together both the desire for coach and the fact that he's got it all together at the same time.
Nancy 13:59
Yeah, no, I'm very familiar with that feeling. Yeah,
Josh Lavine 14:05
yeah, likewise. So, so, okay, so there you are, back to your 15 year old self,
Nancy 14:11
yeah. So I don't really know where I was going with that. I think it was just a funny story,
Josh Lavine 14:18
well, but so I think the place to go is so you were 15, you had this moment that was like, the one possible lifeline that was that basically didn't work out right and and so you stayed depressed, you chose not to up yourself, and you're still here, and you are maybe like, to the extent that it's possible, given your memory, like, just the very brief kind of Spark Notes from like 15 to the moment of just, of choosing to go on the road trip and choosing to live
Nancy 14:58
as far as like. Mental health, or as far as what I did,
Josh Lavine 15:05
as far as, let me say it this way, what I am curious about is there's something about your road trip that feels like poetic, cinematic, redemptive, and it feels I if I were to put it on the Enneagram it, it feels three ish. I don't know why yet, but it just has the feeling to me and press three specifically, it reminds me of moments in my life like, well, for example, last year, I spent in two different stints, a total of five months in a cabin in the woods by myself, and it was the most, it was the happiest I've ever been. And it was just absolutely rejuvenating, and it decalcified all of my patterns, and it purged all of the things that had influenced me, not all of them. But it was just, you are healed you are but it just, it was the first time I really experienced myself on my own, doing my own thing, without the pressures of anything, of anything or anyone else on me. And it was absolutely revitalizing and rejuvenating and and it kind of like woke up my joy again. And it sounds to me like your road trip was a similar experience for you and helped you come back to life. And I'm curious about your experience of that as a three, if that's the right framing for you?
Nancy 16:41
Yeah, no, that makes sense. So part of what I'll talk about is, you know whether, whether or not you believe in medium bullshit. One explanation I got for like, when, like, what I call, like, the fog kind of lifted in my life, I apparently, according to a medium, had like, a out, basically, in like at like 16, which tracks, like when I was, like, had a gun got in my hand ready to shoot myself. So that tracks. I had an out, and I chose not to take it. And so my life up until that point was very much like a I am only living to here, and it didn't feel like living. And then after that was kind of that door closing and almost like a rebirth, for lack of a better term of like, Oh, I'm here now. This is where I'll be for a while, however long it is. Now, what kind of thing so I was still extremely depressed, like my mental illness didn't go away, but just the feeling of not being meant to be here was gone. So as that door is closing, from like 16 to 21 was kind of when I was experiencing a little bit of living, and I did that through so I didn't like I graduated high school, I was really low grade student because mental health, and I didn't go to college because I didn't know what I wanted to do, because I just realized that I was going to be on this earth. So I had never made a plan to make it to 18. So I see, yep, yeah. There was no dreams. There were no dreams right to live. So I was like, I don't know what to do. So I got, I got, like, recruited by a sales agency, and went full three because I'd never like, oh yeah, this is good, yeah. I am personally. I feel personally attacked by my own younger self with the story. I dislike it so much. But anyway, so like, I got recruited by a sales agency when I was like, 1817, or 18, to sell cut code knives, and I was
Josh Lavine 19:24
really good at it, like door to door knife salesmanship,
Nancy 19:27
pretty much, yeah, cold calling sales of colory, and I was pretty good at it. So I liked it because it was, it was instant gratification of that self press three, right? Like, you sell something, you make money, you are successful. And it's like, boom, boom, boom, yeah, serotonin, or whatever, you know, like, success. And so that's when, like, my self press three kind of kicked in. And was like, Oh, we've never done this before. Like, yeah. What's this? Yeah, so, you know, it was kind of a way that I could succeed outside of the, like school setting. So I just took it and ran with it, and I did all of it. I did, like, the sales rep job. I did assistant manager. I owned an office for like, two years, I moved around. I like, went to all the conferences, I did all of it, and I was really good at it, and I worked like seven days a week. Didn't have a life. It was my life. Like I was full cult shit in it. And, you know, I, while I was being a it's a district manager, it's where you own an office. I was in Fredericksburg. I had been neglecting, like my physical health, as threes often do. But be I think it caught up to me faster. I think probably because I have, like, mental health issues that I had never dealt with. So my body was already kind of, you know, teetering on the edge of being okay. So I got really sick. I had like, chronic tonsillitis for like a year, and, like, I couldn't, like, eat. I was losing weight. Like it was just really, like it was no one illness. It was just sort of like my body just breaking down. So I ended up having to quit and realizing that was kind of when, like, it hit me that I cannot push myself quite to the extent that other people can, because I saw a lot of people, and maybe, you know, it was probably a little bit of the cult vibe coming in, where they don't tell you what's really going on behind the scenes, but it felt like everyone else was like, not struggling to the level that I struggled.
Josh Lavine 21:53
And to be sure, you were working seven days a week, and that was your whole life,
Nancy 21:56
right? So, right, right, right. But, you know, as a three that's nothing, okay? So, yeah. So, like it felt, oh, you know, like I couldn't push myself to the extent that everyone else was. So I ended up quitting because I couldn't hold their expectations, which nobody should like, you know, they were too high. And I ended up moving back in with my parents. And how were you at this point, 21 or 22 I think 22 so I ended up moving back in with my parents. Didn't have a job. Ended up finding a job through my brother, which was like, desk work at a gun store, which is like, if you know me, is really not my vibe, like, but it was, it was work, you know. So it's what I did also.
Josh Lavine 22:56
I mean, it just really, like, is that where you put your family member who's been struggling with suicidal ideation? Just that's pretty interesting to me, dude,
Nancy 23:08
no, but at that point, I wasn't struggling with suicidal ideation. Oh, that's good. Okay, yeah, yeah. So I was still struggling with depression very much, but also no one, no one, no one in my family like believes or knows that really like they just, they just act like it never happened. Oh, interesting. Okay, yeah, yeah, it's a fun one. So No, it's not where you put people who are struggling with suicidal ideation. But yeah, so I got a job there, worked there, and that's when I started sugaring as well. Okay, so I moved out of my parents house. Let
Josh Lavine 23:49
me stop you for one second. So because the sugar and thing is gonna be a whole other chapter. But the it really strikes me that having, having lived your life up to 1617, in the state that you were in, that the opportunity to sell knives was kind of the lifeline that you as a three actually needed, because, and I know that, you know we could, we could make fun of it in all kinds of Ways, in terms of how it's how it's you being a three, but it sounds like it actually gave you an identity and a sense of actuated self worth that you hadn't experienced before.
Nancy 24:35
Yeah, I think it like showed me that I had energy and passion, yeah,
Josh Lavine 24:42
yeah. And granted, it was for selling knives, which maybe you're not actually passionate about, but like it was for it was a thing that that lit you up and that you were good at, and that you got to experience yourself being good at, yeah, and yeah. So that seems like a really important thing. And you know, one of the things that really. Strikes me too, is comparing this is why, given your mental health history, like your story as a three defies certain stereotypes. My story as a three is, What's that face you made?
Nancy 25:18
I shipped the table.
Josh Lavine 25:20
Oh, got it. Okay, you're fine. So, like, when I was a kid, you know, I had, I went to a high school, a very small high school with 39 kids my graduating class, and it was, you know, I don't mean anything in particular by this, but, like, it was, it was easy for me to get to do very well in school. And I was in, like, every sports thing, and I was in every theater production, and I was just, I was like, Mr. Three, right? And and I had an incredible time in high school, and then, and then, my depression didn't really start until college, because when I went to Princeton, I had to confront my mediocrity relative to my peers and and also I relate to a lot of the things that you said about I can't show that I'm struggling because a players don't show that they're struggling. A players don't struggle. I couldn't accept into my self image that I was struggling actually, and so, you know, was trying to be in every I was trying to be in theater productions and dance companies and an acapella group, and in the hardest possible physics classes and going out every night. And it was just too much. You know, sounds exciting. So my, my depression started as a result of that. But I, but I had, and this is the point I'm trying to make. I had the reference experience prior to that of feeling like alive and that people loved me, and then I was like, you know, on fire in high school. You had success. Yeah, exactly. And so the contrast that I experienced in college was what sent me into a tailspin in terms of mental health as a three and so I tie like my mental health experience is like basically textbook threes going down to levels of health. But your mental health experience doesn't really feel that way. It feels like it was just this other dimension, or like biochemical thing that prevented you from, in a sense, being a three or like, doing what threes do when they're young. But then here you are, and you get this opportunity to sell knives, and then you got to experience that. And so it was a kind of like lifeline, and lifted you out of it. And then so you found yourself back at your parents place. And so I imagine that was, I don't know, depressing, or it was certainly a contrast, or I don't wanna put words in
Nancy 27:48
your mouth, um, yeah.
Josh Lavine 27:50
What was that like?
Nancy 27:53
Yeah. I mean, it's a bit hard to say, because that's one of those periods where it's really, really foggy to me, okay, because I was so physically ill, right? You were deteriorating, yeah, yeah. So, okay, yeah. It's a bit hard to remember, but I do remember that, like, this is when I kind of found, like, that anger fuels is a great fuel, like, when you can't find energy. So, like, I was really mad at my situation, and it was one of the first times that my well, not Well, one of the first times I can remember, of, like, my anger not being linked to my depression in the sense of, like, I get angry, and then I get really, like, depressed. I was just angry because I had been if, you know, being a woman in any, like, sales vibe place, you're going to experience a lot of sexism, and there was a lot of, like, a lot of sexism and a lot of assaults that happened, and a lot of being overlooked for positions, and just a lot of things that had happened in those three or four years that I had been in the factor marketing, which is the name of it, that I was kind of coming to terms with AND like there was, like, one specific line, which I have told the big hormone any RAM podcast, but really stuck with me, which was my boss telling me, right before I quit Nancy, if you want to be respected like A man, you need to work like one. And that was, like, one of those moments that I was like, Well, fuck you. And that's, you know, I quit immediately upon that statement. And so I was still really reeling from like that. So there was a lot of. Um, pick yourself up, dust yourself off. We're gonna, like do something better, okay? Because I was pissed.
Josh Lavine 30:09
So in a certain sense, from a from an inner point of view, you experienced leaving selling, not as a failure, but as a great kind of rebellion against a sexist workplace, and also a moment of self care, because your body was deteriorating so the anger kind of propelled you forward. It wasn't like an it wasn't you didn't have to confront like another ego death,
Nancy 30:36
no, no, it definitely was not an ego death is, is very much a, you know, I'm, I'm going to prove you wrong, and I'm going to go do something I want to do. And that's probably what fueled me planning this road trip. Okay? And so the job was not making me enough money. So that's why I started sugaring to make money for this road trip I see. Okay, yeah, yeah. So in so this, that period of my life, was really like very finding myself in feminism, getting away from the church, turning away from, like, the Republican Party, really finding, like, my political stances and that kind of stuff. So, like, I cut off all my hair. I, you know, broke up with a boyfriend that was, like, not supportive, like, I did all these things that were very much like a fuck you I'm gonna do this myself now, so like, I kind of had my three awakening that gave me success and energy. I realized that I was not that, and then I started working towards something that I wanted to actually be, which I've always loved hiking. I've always loved the outdoors. I grew up, like, hiking around the woods behind my parents house. Like, that's all I did as a kid. So I was, like, started hiking a lot more because I was working kind of weird hours. So I always had, like, Tuesdays off, so I'd go hiking on Tuesdays. And, like, no one's up on the mountain on Tuesdays, which is wonderful. So I got to spend a lot of time doing that. Learned a lot about camping, hiking, safety, got gear and, kind of like, gathered my resources and started planning this trip to really, like, try myself out. I guess, yeah, so, so
Josh Lavine 32:43
the so the sugaring thing that was a means to an end. And can you talk about your I just I know that you mentioned in our last conversation that sugaring was another period of life where your three Ness really showed up. So yeah, I'm curious to hear you talk about that, and I have one other question. See if you can weave this in. Can you talk about what it was like sugaring in the context of having your political feminist awakening?
Nancy 33:21
It's so fun. It's such a it's such a party. Honestly, I really enjoyed sugaring. It was very fun. 90% of time, there's obviously the 10% that's like, you know, people don't pay you and shit like that,
but 90% of times very fun. So, what did you I lost my train of thought for a second.
Josh Lavine 33:46
I asked about your experience sugaring, and how you said that it was a period of time where that's right. Threeness, yeah, right. Thank
Nancy 33:54
you. So let's see. I so it kind of started, okay, um, when working in this gun store, I worked around a lot of older men who are probably a little creepy, whatever. And by probably, I mean they really are. They liked young women so but I realized I was really good at making them like me, even though I had really short hair and I was not like their stereotypically pretty lady. They thought it was like a fun time to banter with me, and the hilarious part of old white men is you can insult them, and they think it's so funny because they don't think you're serious. Ever okay? So, like most. Of my banter was just me being really insulting to people, and they thought it was hilarious. So, like, I, like, there was one customer who, like, really, like, really liked me. He was going through a divorce, and he was, like, just an older dude, just like, struggling. And he liked me, know if he started, like, buying stuff for me. So he started like, I wanted a pistol for my house at in the in Richmond, because Richmond cities, it's not the safest So, and I grew up with guns, obviously, so I like, feel somewhat comfortable with them being in my house now. So he bought me like a gun. He would take me to shooting range. He would take me hunting, which I'm not a huge fan of hunting, but, you know, it's entertaining to sit in a tree stand and watch nature and not shoot things. So, like, he started doing all that, and I was like, Oh, this is kind of, I'm pretty good at this, and so I had a friend who was also good
Josh Lavine 36:06
at specifically
Nancy 36:10
making old white men pay me. So I had a friend who was in it, and she showed me, like how to work the website, like what to put on it, what to check for, all that kind of stuff, which I would highly recommend if you're going to get into it. Especially now you probably want to find someone who's already in it to help you. If you have any questions, feel free to send them my way. Because,
Josh Lavine 36:38
yeah, go ahead. Coming out? Yeah, no.
Nancy 36:41
Like, I really it's not the safest. So you know, if there are any people looking to start this, like, Please ask any questions you have. So that's what she did for me. So, you know, I got my profile set up. The first guy didn't really want to pay me like you want to just give me gifts, which is, like, not helpful. So that was fine, but like, what I found out I was really good at was specifically, like, short, older white men and like kink, and they love that, because I would just be like a little rude brat to them, and they're like, here's my money. They just loved it so I could put on a face for three, four hours, make them really, really happy, like, not just sexually, like I could, just like they could talk about their lives. To me they could, because most of them are, like, struggling in some emotional way, like they this is a space for them to, you know, get something out of it that they don't have back at home. So I would offer that space to them, and they really enjoyed it, and I was really good at, like, listening and holding space for them and creating whatever person they wanted to be with that day. And I actually made it like one good friend out of it, he's actually very nice guy, like, we ended up hanging out for a couple years after that, not as like a arrangement or dating, just hanging out so, um, but he was one of the few that I was actually like myself with, but he was also like a normal person. Um, all the rest of them were very much like really troubled men who needed a certain person. So I was able to, like, create that for them, be that for them, and then leave it was like the perfect three setting, right? I can be very one dimensional. Nobody expects me to be anything other than one dimensional. Make money, go home, and I have a high sex drive anyway. So it works, you know? So, yeah, that was kind of like, how I Yeah, the threeness.
Josh Lavine 39:05
Do you have? Or at the time, did you have any, how I want to put this question, like, were you aware of of the way that you were adapting and becoming another person, yes, or a
Nancy 39:25
bit, right? And I took great joy in it, yeah, that's
Josh Lavine 39:29
actually what I'm tuning into, is that that is really interesting to me, is that you took joy in it, yeah, because, because, why? Because it was something that you knew, that you it was another thing that you were good at. It
Nancy 39:39
was another thing that I was good at, and it was simple is, is very easy. Like, I don't think I could do that now, to be honest, because I've kind of integrated myself, integrated into multiple parts of myself. So, like, I can't just be one dimensional anymore, but I. In that time I hadn't. So it was a part of me that I hadn't integrated, that I could just fully be for like, three or four hours and get paid to be so, yeah, it was kind of a person that I wasn't allowed to be a normal life, that I hadn't integrated into my life. Oh,
Josh Lavine 40:19
like, What? What? What's What does that mean? Well, like, what, what aspects or facets of you,
Nancy 40:24
um, like my very, my pretty, like aggressive towards men, like kind of hateful, kind of rude, kind of bitchy personality, like darker personality, or whatever, sure, like, if you watch like, how my, what am I trying to say? My, my style like, shifted like, if you could watch me as my style shifts through that, you could see me like, integrating that part of me like my sexy, sexual, whatever side, non binary shit, all that was very in a corner and in a and I was in a very Republican setting at work, you know, so, like, still kind of coming out of the church, hadn't, like, accepted that I was like, bi, hadn't really accepted that I wasn't super gender conforming. So like all of my experiments, I could kind of put in that corner, and I could bring out for certain men, because certain men like certain things, and most of those I had, and I hadn't tried them on yet. So it allowed me to try everything on and see what I wanted to keep.
Josh Lavine 41:43
That is amazing. I'm so I am super struck by let's see two things. So the first is how you created the situation for yourself, where you got to experiment with different bringing out different conceal, previously concealed aspects of your personality, and find places where not only did you get to experiment with them, but you found places where they were welcome and and over time, got to integrate things that You had been hiding into your actual identity. Yes, two is how I think it would be not so far stretched to say that the a typical reaction to sugaring for people don't really know what it is, or have spoken to a person who's actually done it feels like it contradicts a certain ethos of feminism. And what's interesting to me about your experience is that you actually were discovering yourself as a feminist and kind of inhabiting and embodying and manifesting certain personality traits that are authentic to you as a feminist in that context, and kind of locking them in as foundations of your selfhood. And I just think it's amazing that you that that was the that was the framing and the context in which you
Nancy 43:31
did that. Yeah, yeah. I guess I'm lucky that I got to experiment and get paid to experiment. I don't think many people get that opportunity that's pretty
Josh Lavine 43:43
amazing.
Nancy 43:43
Yeah.
Josh Lavine 43:44
The other thing I would say is, just from a three point of view, is that it really does feel to me like it's so important for young calories to feel good at something, and so you found not so you had your first experience of that with the knives and the selling, and you had your second experience of that in this context of sugaring. And it seems to me like both of them gave you, gave you a sense of confidence that the rest of your life didn't really give you an opportunity to grow
Nancy 44:23
Yes, yeah. And I think one thing after that happened, after the sales job, was I was really afraid to do something that I was that good at as a job, as a full time job, because, as threes know, it's very easy to allow that to take over your life. So I think that it was an interesting time where I was able to try doing like side stuff. Side hobbies that I was good at, that I enjoyed I happened to make money at, and not let it take over my life, and have that three be like sustained and happy, because I think it is extremely important for threes to be good at stuff, to be doing something that they feel they're good at, but not have it be my entire life, so not letting the three take me over.
Josh Lavine 45:30
Yeah, did you experience that at all in the context of sugaring, the the takeover?
Nancy 45:38
No, because it was very, very like I said, one dimensional is I was one person for an evening, and you can't really extend that into a real human Life, I guess, or I couldn't,
Josh Lavine 45:57
I see So, yeah, yeah, I think originally, when I because we had not actually unpacked this yet, but when you talked about sugaring, and you said that it was another place where you were like an Uber three, I thought where you were going to go with it was that you applied yourself with the same kind of intensity, oh no, as you did the knives. And it sounds like it's a totally different thing. No, yeah. So you had these, like, time box scenarios where you got to experiment with your
Nancy 46:30
identity, yeah, yeah. And that's, that's, I think, what's helped me be such a integrated Bermuda three, even though I'm not, you know, highly integrated. I'm more integrated than I was before. So,
Josh Lavine 46:45
yeah, so Okay, so then you went on the road trip, and then you had, what kind of an experience
Nancy 46:55
was it? Yeah, so I went on, I went on the road trip, and is the first time that I had been that alone, without expectations, right? Like I had lived or I had worked alone, and, like, lived with roommates, but like, I still had expectations, like I'd show up to work I had to do, you know, life things, but this was my first time where I was able to just do anything, anything I wanted to, go anywhere. I had my dog with me. He was a puppy at the time, and so it was just me and him. It was my job to take care of him, and it was very like, I feel like a lot of people probably view it as like a, like a, you know, like you mentioned cinematic, it was just a lot of me crying, a lot of crying, a lot of like, being like, realizing that things don't look or or are things aren't the way you expect them to be a lot of the time. You know, because you go to these beautiful places and, like, it's just a place, and you're just a person in a place, experiencing life in a different place. So, like, so it kind of showed me, like, how normal things are, I guess, everywhere, and showed me how like human I was. And it really allowed me to just like, be sad and like, I definitely grieved. Like, got a lot of my grieving done alone as a three does best. And I think I grieved like a lot of my childhood and like, you know, just the things that I feel like I missed out on, and kind of reconciling like that, this mental illness I have is probably going to be forever, and that's just how it's going to be. And like, coming terms with that, and coming terms with like, capitalism is going to run my life like, just a lot of, like, dealing with the weight of the world in a way that wasn't, I'm depressed, I'm gonna kill myself. It's like, actually dealing with it,
Josh Lavine 49:32
yeah, yeah. I mean coming to a place of acceptance instead of fighting your circumstances. Yeah. And there's something I come like, wanting to make a three connection about that it feels like it's there, but I'm not finding it
Nancy 49:52
well as a self press three. I think it's important that there's always that long. Like, especially self press three, specifically, there's always that longing for home, that longing for a home that you've never had, and that's really just a self press thing. And I think it's important for self pros three is to, like, go, try and find it, because it leads you eventually back to yourself, because there isn't really a home that you are missing. You just it's just that grief, that self prized grief, that's just always there. So and I think it's also important for threes to spend time alone without any expectations, because you aren't gonna I feel like young threes are not going to learn how to be themselves until they are alone and find themselves in their silence, and then they can start integrating it into real life with other people. Although
Josh Lavine 50:55
you know, what's amazing to me though about your experience sugaring is that in contrast to what you're saying is that, and this actually is sort of philosophically challenging for the way we conceive of three is like, Excuse me, the way that you were finding yourself through these, what you would call like, performative relationships. And so there's something about like that was an essential aspect of your journey of individuation. And what, you know, what someone would be very tempted to do is talk about, oh, like you were just being a different person with every person. You know. That's like classic three chameleonic thing. But it seems to me there's something much deeper going on there. So you had that experience and then integrated aspects of yourself that you hadn't been able to integrate before, and then you had this experience of being able to grieve a lost childhood after having done that. Feels like that sequence kind of couldn't have gone the other way. Yeah.
Nancy 52:22
Well, I think it's also I, I picked out what I wanted to keep when I was sugaring, and then I was able to actually, like, I don't know, for some reason, I'm thinking of it in terms of, like, a wardrobe. Like I picked out the outfits that I wanted to, like, add to the wardrobe, and then I integrated it into it. And,
Josh Lavine 52:53
yeah, and also, I think just you're, I mean, you're pretty saucy as a person, you know what? I mean? Like,
Nancy 53:00
thank you. Yeah. I
Josh Lavine 53:01
mean, was that a thing that you that was true of you before you did triggering? Um,
Nancy 53:05
no, well, kind of, but, like, it was, it was very, like, in a box, amazing, um, yeah, and it came out, like, it got me in a lot of trouble, like, you know, like it was not integrated healthily. So I would like, date people who are not healthy for me, because I was like, Ooh, they're bad. And like, I'm a little bad. And like, nobody knows. Well, I'm also just
Josh Lavine 53:30
talking about, like, your sense of humor. I mean, you're like, you poke people, you know, you have this kind of, like, sometimes blase like, making fun of or dismissing people, but in a way that is actually kind of seeing them, you know, yeah, like, you do a lot to, I mean, everyone on the podcast and and me before, yeah, yeah, I'm
Nancy 53:57
good at it. Yeah, you are.
Josh Lavine 53:59
So that's the thing too. And that's, that's an amazing just that statement right there, like, you're good at it. I mean, I think that's in a certain sense, that's been the through line of your story, of, of, not, I don't want to overstate, like, I was going to use the word healing from mental health, but it seems to me it's apropos, but it's not, it's not complete necessarily, but the sense of your individuating and like coming back to life road, the the feeling or like, what, what you kept following your nose, like, what am I good at? What am I good at? Right? And that that helps you constellate your sense of who you are, and then having constellated that you were able to grieve all this time where you didn't have that and not that you're not still discovering. But that seems to me the way the right way to put it,
Nancy 54:51
yeah, I think you're right. I think yeah, following my nose was a good way to put it. It's yeah, it's sort of. Like, like, my threeness was kind of shortened a little because of, like, my mental illness as a child, so I kind of had to, like, Fast Track figuring out what I was good at, whereas, like most, three children probably know, to an extent, what they're good at. They may not know themselves, but they know what they're good at. So yeah, I think it was a lot of like in my early 20s, late teens, finding that being like, oh, that worked. Oh, that worked. And just,
Josh Lavine 55:35
yeah, yeah. Is there anything now? Actually, yeah, I do want to ask this question. I'm curious about there's a bit of a fork in the road there's, I'm curious about your time after the road trip, your experience on the podcast, your and your kind of professional trajectory, and how that is like a continuation of your choosing to live and wanting to do things that you love and the and I'm curious if there's a moment after which for you, your identity stops being anchored to, I'm good at this, and starts being anchored to, I like this, or I want this, irrespective of being good at it, just because it's coming from some other inner place.
And one prompt is around, like your choice of school or grads. I mean, your choice of topic to study. I'm curious about that too. Yeah, so that as a whole, that's the menu. Okay?
Nancy 56:55
Oh, no, there are too many things. Okay, do I feel like I need this narrowed down. I
Josh Lavine 57:05
Yeah, let's narrow down. Let's, can you? Can you talk about, let's start here. Can you talk about your journey after the road trip? Actually, yeah, let's, let's do it this way. One of the things that I was I found kind of funny about our first conversation was how much I was struck by like, you're a three you're on an Enneagram podcast. It has nothing to do with your profession or your work, correct? And you even kind of took time away from it while you were, like figuring shit out in the Netherlands, and are back, and there's this, like, hobby thing that you hold with the Enneagram. I'm curious. Like, what you like about the Enneagram, how it touches you, what, what is interesting to you about it? And it's so funny I asked these compound questions. Okay, actually, let's put that one aside. Here's, this is what I actually want to ask is, can you talk about,
Nancy 58:06
can you talk about it? Right? I have a Bermuda tracks two. Bermuda is on a call. Let's go.
Josh Lavine 58:13
What I actually want to ask is, can you talk about how you've chosen your life path forward after the road trip.
Nancy 58:23
Okay? Well, I feel like a pattern in my life is it doesn't always feel like I'm choosing it. It just sort of feels like it falls into my lap, which I think a lot of threes can relate to. Things just sort of for sure, yeah, yeah. Things just sort of happened to us, and we're just like, oh, that's a pleasant coin, coin, key dink. So like, when, when I got back, I, like, just a kind of a brief interlude of, like, how my professional life got started. I met a person in a friend group, in a specifically an ultimate frisbee friend group, yeah, who was like, Hey, I think you'd be great helping me with my startup. Like, I think you have this Enneagram. I like, at the point, at that point, I was kind of touting my Enneagram experience. So he was like, you know, I think you'd be great using that Enneagram experience to help us, like, navigate having a startup with HR and like, because if you know anything about startups, like, it's very high tension, so kind of helping them through that I ended up, so I ended up helping them, working for them, for, I don't know, like, six months or something, because big shock or it didn't work out. Most startups, not but I ended up doing, like, a lot of HR stuff with the. So like, writing contracts and very paperwork kind of vibe. And I had learned in the desk job at the gun store that I really liked working with, like, very detailed paperwork, like, I like that kind of boring shit. Don't know why. I just like it. And so I kind of got to, like, see how that worked in a professional setting, and really kind of like, procure my professional aura, if you will. So like, you know, kind of find my my three face to put on. That's not like, too different from myself, but, you know, cleaner, and that shut down. I ended up going through a staffing agency. They staffed me at a title company, and that's kind of how I got started in Title work, which, for those of you who don't know, when you buy a house, there's a lot of shit that goes on behind the scenes. Title companies basically prove chain of title is clear. So prove that everybody has owned the house legally up until this point, and that way we can actually ensure the sale. So put it simply, so it's a lot of really, really legalese, really boring, behind the scenes paperwork, to put it bluntly, I mean, so, so I stayed with that company for a while, I don't know, like, a year and a half, close to Two years, and then, like, moved up in like, different title agencies, because once you get into title you're pretty sought after, because it's not a job that most people want to do, so it's easy to find a job. Okay, yeah, so that's kind of how my like career in that started, I guess, okay, and then
Josh Lavine 1:02:04
how'd you choose to go to school? Oh, um,
Nancy 1:02:07
so I went back to therapy when I was like 22 and I went to about three years of therapy, and my last couple of months of therapy were me coming to terms with the fact that I actually really wanted to do school because I was a really bad student in high school. I was like, D's get degrees level. Like, literally, my, my GPA from high school was like, a 1.06 like, it was bad. It was bad. So I was, like, coming to terms with the fact that I actually really enjoyed researching. Like, that's kind of what I found in these jobs. It's like, I really like researching and like finding out new things and learning about these laws that are, like, buried deep within the bowels of the legal system. Like, I just like, you know, I think it's interesting. So I was kind of working with my therapist at the time of like, I had a as as a three does, I had built my persona around not being college educated. And I was like, you don't need College. Like, yeah, yeah, yeah. So I was like, I'm better than that. Like, I don't need college, you know, like, I'm good, like, I'm smart, good, yeah. And so kind of breaking down the fact that, like, No, I do want to go to college now and now this is, like, a different part of me that I hadn't, like, learned about.
Josh Lavine 1:03:33
I just want to stop just one second. I just, like, I'm smiling, because that is such an interesting thing about threes. It's like, oh man. Like, just, just how, how every decision has to be rationalized within your self concept, yes, and, and, and also work, and also your self concept has to be superior to whatever you're comparing it to. Yeah. So, like, I, like, No, I haven't gone to college. No, college. Like, people go to college or dork, so, like, you know, like,
Nancy 1:04:07
I don't need it. I'm above capitalism. Like, yeah,
Josh Lavine 1:04:09
yeah. So that's amazing. So you so your choice to go to college had to, basically, like, you had to reconstitute your identity to fit that in correct,
Nancy 1:04:22
yeah? And one nice thing that's grow that comes with growing older as a three is realizing that we are all very dynamic humans and like you can want different things, and maybe your persona would allow right? Yeah, I know it's, it's mind blowing. It's mind blowing. You can, I'm here to tell you. So, yeah, it's, it's, that is a constant struggle with me, of like, being able to, like, make myself seem like this put together person, but also be like, I've lived 15 lives. Like. Ah, so, yeah, anyway, not being perceived as flaky whole thing. It's a whole thing. Josh, so, yeah. So I had to basically, like, break down my persona of myself to, like, fit this in. You know, like, when you, like, set up a bookshelf, but now you get a new book, Now you have to put it somewhere anyway. That's what I had to do. So I started going back to school because we had planned to move to the Netherlands, and obviously they were not going to accept my high school degree in colleges over there. So And fun fact about me, I actually went to a non accredited high school, so I technically don't have a high school degree. Christian high school kids. Am I right?
Josh Lavine 1:05:51
So wait, but you wanted to go to the Netherlands. The Netherlands was just like a place you wanted to live. Period. Full stop with Brian, right,
Nancy 1:06:00
right, right, yeah. The Netherlands was, it was had the most pros, like we wanted to live in Europe, but Netherlands had the most, okay, check, yeah. But what I didn't realize is the Netherlands schools are either the best in the world and you cannot get into them, or they're shit, and there's no in between. And I went to the one that is shit, and didn't know anyway, super fun times. So I started going back to school to get an associate so that they would accept me basically into college over there, into into uni. And I went for just business because I thought I wanted to do, like, some form of, like event coordinating, because I would just wasn't sure, like, it just sounded fun. So I was like, Sure. As I went through business, my business degree, I realized that that is, like, not my vibe. I had not come into, like, my fully introverted self, yet I would say, okay, and through college, COVID hit, right? And I realized that I was like, Oh, I am a true introvert. I can sit alone in a room for like six days and I'm I love it. So I realized that I probably have autism, realize that I cannot function at a high level in very social settings for a long time. So I realized kind of my limitations there. And so that's when I kind of realized that event management and like, anything having to do with, like, contact with humans, it's probably not my thing. So I kind of took a couple electives, because it's an associate, so I was already, like, deep into it, like, once I realized this, and you can't really change your degree and Associates, like, it's too fast. So I took some electives that were things I was interested in, so like psychology and microbiology. And I loved microbiology. It was so fun. Like every class, I was just like, eating it up. I was reading the textbook, which, like, who reads the fucking textbook? And an associate's degree. I listened to podcasts, like, I listened to a podcast called genetics and zipped and I'm like, every new every new episode that comes out, I'm like, Oh, what are they talking about? And it's just shit that I like, don't really understand, but I like, love it. I've listened to the book, well, it's like a series of lectures called the Theory of Everything. It's physics. I don't know what. I don't understand physics, but I love it, so, like, that's where I started realizing, like my little science brain had never been fed as a child because I was taught creationism. And then I was kind of talking to some friends about I was talking to like, I want to do science, but I don't know what. And one of my friends dads is a geneticist. I think he's some form of, like, breeding PhD, animal stuff. So he was like, I have a lab I work with, specifically food animals, in this case, sheep. Come watch what I do. And I was like, okay, so I shouted him for a day. Got to see his lab, got to see how he collects semen, which is super entertaining, not because I got to watch semen collection, but because his system was funny. He literally like to clarify, yeah, to create sheep flesh lights, like, is a whole thing. It was so funny. He had like these PVC pipes with like rubber condoms in them, but they have to be pumped full of warm water so that it actually feels like, you know, wow, a vagina, a vaginal cap. D, and then I got to see, like, all these pictures of sperm under a microscope. And he was like, Yeah, I actually castrated, like, one of these sheep. And then we tested his semen, and there was one sperm in it going around and around in circles. Like it didn't have good motility, but it was there. He was like, so proud of himself, because it's also very hard to find sperm under a microscope. Like that was crazy chances. So anyway, he was very excited about it. It was it was me, and he's very German, so, like, it was me and this old German guy discussing cheap sperm for like, all day. It was so fun. It was the most fun I've had in a long time. So that's when I kind of realized that I wanted to do genetics or genome something, but in animals, not in humans. I don't human genetics is not my thing. So
Josh Lavine 1:10:51
yeah, so this is, this is really cool and and interesting to me from a three point of view, because, and this, I think, is what I was trying to set up is that previously your you were building your identity based on things that you felt you were good at, like you discovered, oh, I'm really good at selling knives, or I'm really good at, like, making old white men like me or whatever. And you're like, just hearing you talk about genetics, just like the quality of your storytelling. Like you were so lit up, just talking about it. And you know what I mean? And that's that feels to me like the heart shine of the three, you know? And it's like it's not the Polish, it's like the actual glow, and it's coming from a different place. It's like it's actually not a competence place to start. You know, it's like, like, I was hearing you say that you're listening to these podcasts, you don't actually even understand what they're saying. It's not like you're not leading with, oh, I I'm really good at this. You're leading with. In fact, I'm really good at it. Yeah, yeah, you're leading with. I just am really fascinated by this, and I really like it, period, and, and that's the thread that you're following now. And I imagine three competent stuff will eventually show up. And, oh, it definitely does. Yeah, get good at it and stuff like that. But just because it lights you up, that's the reason now that you're going after it. So that feels really cool. It
Nancy 1:12:16
is. And I think the blessing of the three is having the confidence to go after something that I don't think I'm particularly good at sciences, but that three, like, cockiness, where you're like, I can do anything, yeah, like, I don't think most people would go after a degree, where they're like, I am not good at like, I'm not good at this, but I'm gonna go after it because I know if I work hard enough, it'll probably work out for me, which is like, that cocky three shit where you're just like, Sure, I can scuba dive to the bottom of the ocean. Totally. You're
Josh Lavine 1:12:54
talking to the guy who taught himself piano at 24 and became Exactly yeah. So yeah, that's yes. I'm very familiar with that space. Yeah.
Nancy 1:13:01
You're like, I
Josh Lavine 1:13:02
can totally, yeah, yeah. So, okay, so I'm noticing the time, and let's, let's wrap up here, but this is amazing. And also I'm so glad that we came full circle to your time in the Netherlands. So, so that's where you are now. Is like, you, you went, you went to school, basically, like, this is the thing and, and here you are back in Virginia. It was not the thing. Yeah. And I'm, I will restrain myself from asking you what your next steps are, because maybe are you, I imagine you're just figuring it out, like you're not sure
Nancy 1:13:38
yet. You think I don't have a plan bitch. Like, come on,
Josh Lavine 1:13:41
you got one? Oh, yeah,
Nancy 1:13:43
I had a plan from the moment that I knew I wasn't going to continue with this school. I was like, All right, let's go.
Josh Lavine 1:13:50
This is probably six fixed second as opposed to last, because I am 396
Nancy 1:13:57
Oh, that's interesting, yeah.
Josh Lavine 1:13:59
And I definitely experienced, I mean, your quality of energy is feels to me six second as opposed to last. Yeah,
Nancy 1:14:06
yeah. I definitely have a very strong connection six. But yeah, when plans fall through, I don't immediately mourn them. I fix this scenario, and then I mourn them. So I had to come up with, like, what am I going to do now? So I have already applied to colleges here in the States. I'm transferring my credits. I'm probably going to go to ASU online, because they have a biology program online, all this stuff I get, like, making sure that I get enough lab hours. Like, I probably start in like, March. I think we're job searching. Got an apartment, you know, bang, bang, boom, all that kind of stuff. Cool.
Josh Lavine 1:14:47
Okay,
Nancy 1:14:48
yeah, yeah, that's good
Josh Lavine 1:14:50
luck with all that.
Nancy 1:14:52
Thank you. Yeah.
Josh Lavine 1:14:53
So how are you feeling, and what has this been like for
Nancy 1:14:58
you? Um, it's been real. Fun. It's been a less heavy than our first call. It was, it was a lot more like bouncing around and kind of having fun with the topic. So that's kind of cool. I like that you contextualize, like, everything I said in threeness. It was interesting to me, because I often don't do that because, like you said, I I think of my three as secondary to, like, my weird brain shit. So I always am entertained by people, like, being like, oh so this might be your three coming through. I'm like, Oh yeah, it might be like. So that was really fun to, like, listen to you mansplain myself to me, I Oh,
Josh Lavine 1:15:43
so thanks for that. You're so welcome. I'm happy to mansplain anything you want anytime I
Nancy 1:15:48
know. Well, you are. You're our white guy. I mean, what are you
Josh Lavine 1:15:54
gonna do? Okay, well, great. Thank you so much for doing this. I
Nancy 1:15:58
really appreciate it. Course, yeah, It's my pleasure. Yeah,
Josh Lavine 1:16:01
yeah,
Nancy 1:16:02
okay, okay.
