Czan 0:00
Because the whole point of the association is you're not conscious of what's going on. And so it's like my ego is making me not conscious of being not conscious, you know, and that's and when I get when I actually understand that, that's an extremely terrifying thing, because it's like, what else is my ego not making me conscious about,
Josh Lavine 0:20
you know, welcome to another episode of what it's like to be you. I'm Josh Lavine. Your host Today, my guest is Xander. Xander is a software engineer who lives in the United States. He works at a gaming company, and he is a social self pres nine, wing 1953, trifix. Xander is so brilliant and he made a name for himself in the enneagrammer community a couple years ago with his original insight regarding attachment to disconnect, which was his term for trying to make sense of what's going on with attachment, types types three, nine and six, where what he identified was that it's not that they're Actually securely attaching. What they're doing is creating the conditions in which they're constantly reaching to be attached, but not actually attaching. He talks about it a little bit towards the end of the interview, but this interview is really more about the man Xander. And if you want to learn more about attachment to disconnect, then I recommend you check out the big hormone Enneagram episode where he is a guest on it, talking about it with Courtney also. So let's talk about this interview. This conversation was amazing. We talk about what it's like for Xander to be a nine and why he's a nine and not a five like he mistyped for a couple years, for many years. So we talk about what it's like to be a nine with a five fix, and we talk a little bit about six fix versus five fix, especially contrasting my six fix versus his five fix, we have a really good couple of meta conversational moments where we actually explore the dynamic in real time. Pretty interesting. One of the things that Xander is and has been on his own journey of inner work and personal growth for a long time, and he has worked with modalities like internal family systems and plant medicine and man towards the end of the interview, the story he gives about what he experienced on one plant medicine journey is absolutely beautiful and remarkable and really worth listening to. And so I just really respect Xander. I think he's super intelligent and very deep, and really looking forward to you learning from my friend Xander. So without further ado, here he is. Welcome everyone to another interview. I am here with my friend Xander, and let me just set this up so your full typing is social self, Pres, 91953, try fix. And so first of all, Hello and welcome. And I'd love to start where I start with everyone, which is, can you talk about your Enneagram origin story?
Czan 2:58
Yeah, I was being trained to lead a team of interns in this art company in Morocco, like we were there and we were just our goal was just to connect artists, local artists and international artists with schools, so they would come over and teach classes and stuff like that. And I was leading this team, and so I was part of the process of being taught to lead was the Enneagram, like, oh, there's this tool that you can use to, like, get to know your team better and get your teammates to know each other better. And so that's when I first learned about it. I was like, okay, cool. This is cool tool. And then how long ago was that? That was, oh, gosh, 2012 Okay, so 11 years ago, yeah, um, so, yeah, I feel like that whole experience. I was like, Okay, that's pretty interesting. So, interesting. So then started, like, looking it up online, and like, doing my own research, and, like, it's like, okay, so there's like, this whole community, there's like a more, call it a mystical background to this system. It's not just the team building thing or whatever. And that's when I was like, Okay, this is actually pretty interesting. As, you know, started reading books and stuff like that about it. So, yeah, started reading on online forums, and, you know, getting through that whole like, online typing thing with, like, you know, Myers, Briggs, cognitive function, so it's, yeah, all the whole, the whole gamut was included, and all that too. So an Enneagram was, what's one of them got it? Yeah, I guess that was like 11 years ago. Yeah. Okay,
Josh Lavine 4:51
so we have a lot of interesting things on the menu here for this conversation we we talked about. So first of all, you gained. Some notoriety in the Enneagram or facebook group with your very interesting insight about attachment to disconnect, which I'd love to unpack in a little bit. Yeah, and then you were on some of the bhe podcasts talking about that, and some of that also in conjunction with Courtney, who's also object relations queen, and you are also an immigrant, and we were going to potentially get into that from an attachment point of view. And I feel like, let's start there. I would love to just hear your kind of life story as a nine, to the extent like the headlines of it, or whatever feels interesting, juicy for you from the point of view of being a nine, yeah,
Czan 5:43
well, I mean, just, just, we can talk about immigrant experience, I guess, and then see what attachment threads, or nine threads, we can get from that. It's probably a better way to go. So, yeah, I grew up in Singapore. So I was born in the Philippines, and when I was, like, one My parents migrated to Singapore because my dad got a job there, and it was just like, better opportunities, because Singapore is a you know better to do country than the Philippines was and is and so it's interesting that I grew up as an immigrant, and my parents also were immigrants. And I mean, it's, you know, it's a common experience for immigrants, but I was like an immigrant along with my parents. So I guess, in terms of attachment, like, whenever I had to, like, you know, learn how to do anything like they were also learning how to do stuff at the same time, kind of, right? And so I had to learn how to do a lot of things by myself. I did, like, learn how to be my own person in Singapore. I didn't learn how to be a foreign person in Singapore by myself. Because, I mean, there weren't at that time, there weren't a lot of Filipinos there either. So, like, we didn't have any community. And my parents were figuring out how to survive and live in another country while, like, raising a kid. So yeah, yeah, that's
Josh Lavine 7:30
interesting. And also just your phrasing of that was interesting from the five fix point of view to, like, having to figure it all out by yourself. So you're basically, we're an immigrant twice. You moved from the Philippines to Singapore. Grew up in Singapore until you were 16, and then from there, you moved to America, and were an immigrant again, and so had to re adapt yourself to a new culture. Is that a fair way?
Czan 8:01
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And, I mean, and this is something that I've been working with consciously for the past like, year or so, like, that's my default state, is an immigrant. Is like, adaptation, right? It's like, everywhere I go, I always have to adapt, like, because, like, that's from day one of my life that's just been what I've had to do to survive in the world. So like, I can't, not, I cannot do it. And I feel like I've never been in a place, I've never lived in a place where people are the same as me, you know? And that's, like, my perspective, right? Whether or not it's true, whether or not it's reality, like, that's a whole other conversation. But like, my perspective is that I've never, ever lived in a place where, like, people are the same as me in Singapore, like there were no other Filipinos in the US. Like, I'm living in a place now where there's, like, No really, other Asian Americans. I don't I don't have many Asian slash Asian American friends.
Josh Lavine 9:05
So, Oregon, right? Eugene, Oregon. I
Czan 9:07
live in Oregon, Eugene, Oregon, and I feel like part of that is me, like, continuing that pattern, like, like, I could move to a city more, more metropolitan area that has, you know, more of that community, because I've been realizing that some of this stuff, some of my trauma from being an immigrant or has to be worked out in community. Like, part of it is like realizing that I can be a part of something, you know, but just like, innately, because this is the pattern that I've always grown up with, is I've always the only thing I've ever known, like, I just my ego, just naturally pushes against it, or it's not even pushes against it, just like, it just doesn't even register that that's, that's the thing that I you. Should be seeking, or should be, should be trying to work towards, you know, community or belonging, community and belonging, yep, yep, and and, you know, at one level right race is just, is just one level right? Because there's many other levels of belonging, but for me, personally, I feel like it's an important lesson that I need to learn to work through some of the woundings that I've had in that realm, because it is off that level. So, yeah, you know, it's
Josh Lavine 10:42
interesting, as we framed up this conversation, from the point of view of you being an immigrant, it strikes me that the metaphor, or the archetype of immigrants is really relevant to attachment, just at like a basic metaphor level, in the sense that you are adapting to a culture. And there's some, there's some journey of discovering who you are in relation to your surrounding, and a sense of, kind of like coming out as yourself in a certain sense. Yeah, and it is interesting that you are actually an immigrant in the sense and geographic sense, but it's just a that's a kind of interesting kind of four to draw in general, for attachment. So I have so period paragraph two is, I would love to know when you started learning the Enneagram, what is it about it that captured you, and what have you? What? What, what did it throw into relief, or what did it clarify about yourself? For you and I know it's been 11 years of the of a journey of working with it, learning about it, but like, what was the initial hook? And where are you at the now?
Czan 12:07
Yeah, I mean the initial hook, I was just a system where I could understand people and like it articulated patterns into these concrete, not measurable, but like, observable, things that I could see and like, help me understand basically what's going on in the world, what's going on with myself. Like, you know, give some words like, what's going on with myself and other people in relation to other people, right? Yeah, yeah. And, and I typed as a five for a really long time, okay, yeah. And where I am with it right now, I think I mentioned it to you earlier, is, for me personally, is learning how to talk about the Enneagram without talking about the Enneagram or without explicitly talking about the Enneagram. And that's just like in daily life, of like, okay, there are these, there's this particular language. There's this particular niche language that is prevalent in, like, only Enneagram communities. And you know, the people that I interact with on a day to day basis are not not in these communities, and it's learning how to integrate in, like, this kind of thinking process and like patterning with the people around me, without, like, using jargon or specialized Language, and it in a way that still, like, gets deep and gets and cuts to patterns and traumas, you know? So that's where I'm at with it. Now,
Josh Lavine 13:49
what's your what's your motivation for wanting to talk about the Enneagram without actually talking about the Enneagram? Just getting
Czan 13:59
to know people, getting to know people on a day to day basis, and like getting to, like articulating their pain. And because that, for me, makes more interesting conversation, because, I mean, I don't know, I could be with a co occur at lunch, and just like talking about stuff. And then, you know, we slowly get to some interesting topic, and like the Enneagram, I was like, Oh, so that's in my brain. I'm like, Oh, so that's that could be, like, this kind of pattern, or six pattern, or in or whatever, all that language. But then What? What? How I have to translate it is like, Oh, it is it because of x, y, z, and then can go somewhere really interesting, you know, with that conversation? So yeah, where I'm
Josh Lavine 14:49
coming from with that question Was it strikes me as a kind of attachment pattern itself. Know, in a sense, to to be trying to draw a bridge between your inner world and someone else's inner world. And in the sense of, like, you know, not expecting that someone else is going to be interested in or in, in developing the vocabulary and learning the framework of the Enneagram, kind of going getting all the way into, like this mental model that you know, and instead taking this mental model that you know and kind of making it digestible in other language to a person that you'd like to connect
Czan 15:39
with. I mean, I don't know if it's like sharing my inner world with their inner world, like I am not in any evangelist. Like, I don't care if other people get into the Enneagram or not. That's not, yeah, not at all, because it's a system, and if people get into it, great. It's been useful for me. So it's not really something that I care to share with the world. Yeah, it's just a method for me to to get somewhere interesting with people. Yeah,
Josh Lavine 16:14
there's something about that that just is, like, really striking to me. Like, yeah, what's going on with that like? So it's here's why that's interesting to me, because you clearly think about the Enneagram a lot, and you not just think about the Enneagram a lot, but have read a lot of books and have come up with your own original insights that have sparked the imaginations of a community that is like, pretty Die Hard Enneagram, and to take the position that you're not in any evangelist, sincerely, as I experience you doing right now, is pretty amazing to me, because it's kind of like, sort of, I don't know how to put it feels almost like, I mean, there's your double, withdrawn stem right there, like nine five or, I don't even know how to categorize that, in the frame of the game, it feels like there's a some interesting paradox happening in you between the attachment, desire for belonging, and the five rejection, or like, kind of hanging out in your own castled inner mental world with your frameworks that you don't really care if anybody else is on the same page, but it's how you make sense of the
Czan 17:28
world, right? Exactly, well, well, so you said attachment, desire for belonging. That's, that's, that's, is that partially part of your new object relations thing?
Josh Lavine 17:38
Actually, no, I hadn't even formulated like that. I just kind of, it just came out of my mouth. Is it? Do not experience that
Czan 17:44
way? No, because I've seen that language before in some other literature, whereas, like, yeah, frustration, rejection and belonging, or like, right? Yeah, one object, the second object, and then Belinda goes the formulation, yeah, yeah, right, right. And I always thought that was like, No, not at all about belonging at all. Maybe, like, I can see that being like, perhaps a social thing in that sense, you know, I could, I could see that makes sense. But like, to me, it's about like existing in the world. I call it the existential object is what attachment types are like, not attachment types, withdrawn types are like the 459, right? Experience with it's something about existence. The four you know only exists in and of themselves because there's, there was nothing in the world that like, or they were frustrated with the modes of existence that were present in the world, right? Like, um, for five, like, anything in the world, like they reject all forms of existence in the world, and then for the nine they're trying to seek some kind of existence in the world. So, I mean, that's, that's just my kind of low formulation of like, because, yeah, I don't relate to the nurturing, protective both kind of paradigm that like doesn't really make sense to me in terms of like in relation to like all the other types of like, Oh, these types deal with both no like, that doesn't make sense to me. In terms of a model, there has to be like a certain thing that could, could or could, could or could not be related to nurturing or protective. Could or could not be related to mother figure, father figure. Same with nurturing perspective, right? But there is this like existential thing that me, personally, I relate to being an immigrant, right? Like, maybe, maybe that's like social existence, right? Okay, you're dropped here on this in this body on this earth, and the way people. Will perceive you, and the way that you are told that you are is that you don't really exist in the same way that other people do, and that hits different for me than belonging, right? Maybe belonging could be a part of it, right? I'm not like, totally dismissing belonging as being part of it, but like, for me, it's like a matter of existence, like you exist at a different level than other people.
Josh Lavine 20:27
There is a lot to unpack in the word existence, yeah, but actually, what I want to draw out of what you just said is I feel like, when I speak to you there, I feel your five fix on display really strongly, in the sense of, you really are not absorbing the orientations of other people. You're sort of like, it's like, even the way that I just use the word belonging, it kind of landed at your doorstep and you chose not to let it in, you know, or you know. And it's like, actually, here's how I see it, and I find that interesting for you know, as a we're our tri fix is close. I have a six fix. You have a five fix. And my my reflex is to kind of accidentally let in someone else's orientation and then discover later that, oh, actually, I think this other thing, but that was a really interesting demonstration that you just gave of the opposite pattern for you, of a kind of you kind of right. You might let it in eventually, but you gotta, you gotta, like, justify to yourself first.
Czan 21:42
Yeah. Yeah, that's like, you know, got me in trouble before, in terms of, just, like, conversing with people in general. And also, you know, I I had, like, a short career in academia for a while where, like, I was pursuing a PhD, and, like, writing dissertations, and, like, not dissertation, but working on a dissertation. And like, yeah, there was a lot of friction between me and my advisor because of this exact problem of, like, I, I, I thought that academia, in academia could be in an ivory tower and just like, perceive my own interests and ideas and like, really cool stuff. But like, no, that's not the case. Academia is like a conversation between scholars. And in order to participate in this, in academia, you have to understand and know and converse with other scholars and like, take in their perspectives, not not taken, but just like, you know, convert, engage, converse and like, and I always, like, was naturally pushing back against that. Like, I in a way, like, I don't care, I like, don't care, like, about what's going on. Like, I care about this. Like, let me do this and, but, you know, that's the reality of things. You know, that's not academia, you know. And, you know, it's two different worlds. And in this way, like, I, I don't see a lot of fives in academia. It's
Josh Lavine 23:13
a six world. Yeah,
Czan 23:17
fives are like, in some some, like, cave somewhere, like, you know, I don't know, doing their own thing, which is interesting from a standpoint of, like, say, like, Zech, right? I mean, he's an academic, but the way he does it is very, very interesting. So he's an interesting case study for me. Who's that? But, yeah, Slav boys. Zak is a philosopher that I'm pretty sure is a is a five. He's like, Okay, anyway, yeah, so yeah, I know what you're saying. And, yeah, yeah.
Josh Lavine 23:54
So this is okay. This is really interesting, because from the point of view of trifix, or the way that I'm conceived, conceiving of try fix. And part of my theory here is that what five is doing is rejecting on the level of orientation. And it's, it's everything that I just explained before you said, everything you said, but you have, you have nine and three that are attaching on the level of nine attaching on since the level of sensation of like wanting to be held by the environment, and then three attaching on the level of other people's gaze upon them, or their regard of them. And so if you might be interesting to tinker with that, because it's like, maybe the question, really, I'm leaning to, is, why are you a nine and not a five?
Czan 24:36
Yeah, because I think, you know, at a and, yeah, I've talked with a lot of people about this, right? Because I typed as a five for a long time. So this is how, this is where my kind of understanding of Enneagram, I has to come in, my theory. Three in that. So attachment types are nines, right for nines, the identification is with the moving center right, but the other two centers, the feeling and thinking centers, are entangled. And there's like a similar pattern, right, with three and six, and in that case, inside the type structure of nine, like this type structure, there are two bodies that are kind of orbiting each other, like the identification with the moving center and then the entangled other two centers. And because identification is with the one center, these two things kind of equal weight, and so they're orbiting each other. And so like with attachment types there, you know, we've heard like, there's always like, these two modes of functioning. Now, with threes, I you know, you either feel or function. You can't do both at the same time, like you feel or function. Yeah, with sixes, you like you think or like you live. With nines. I mean, I don't have, like, pretty words for nine, but like you, like, are in the world, or you are, like you are in the world, or you i, or you are in yourself.
Josh Lavine 26:30
You know you exist, or you are swirling or something,
Czan 26:33
I exist in the world, or I exist inside of myself. Okay, like, yeah, so, okay, so then, so that's nine. The five right is the same pattern as nine in terms of the thinking center is entangled with the feeling center and then, but the identification is with the thinking center, so the moving center is like, completely ignored, completely ignored. And what I've found with fives is that, yeah, I don't have that ignoring the moving center aspect to myself, like I still, I am, like, still seeking some kind of existence in the world, whereas I don't think from the type structure perspective. I don't think fives do that. Yeah, and so in terms of me determining why I'm a nine and not a five, is that like that? I do feel these two different modes in me of like existing in the role and existing myself, whereas five is just, they're just existing in themselves. They're like, rejecting the world. So yeah, that's how I'm kind of seeing me as a nine in terms of my experience, like I want, I still do. Am relating with people. I still am talking with people. I am. Yeah, so interested sensation in terms of just using your language, yeah.
Josh Lavine 28:09
So let's, let's. Let's lean into my six picks and go into your mental world for a second. So can we talk about your How are you using the word existence? And just going to be careful to restrain ourselves in some kind of way, because I could go everywhere, but like, in terms of being a nine, like, are do you struggle with the sense of your existence? Is that a thing that you feel sort of like toggled on or off in the way that you're describing. And what is it like when it's on? What's it like when it's off?
Czan 28:50
Yeah, yeah. I think when I'm like, in a room of people, I am like, observing, and when I'm observing what's going on, like nothing, like nothing's going on inside me. So that's, that's like, you know, be like that to me, that that is the mode of, like, the moving center on the flip side, like when, then when I'm asked the question or something, sometimes I have to, like, oh, I have to go, go inside and like, think, oh, what? What's going on? And that's like, the other side of the nine equation. So the other mode where I don't feel like I'm even in the room,
Josh Lavine 29:41
yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so the way that I'm tracking that, and this is something, this is my language and how I relate to it, but like your psychological location, it's there's a very clear distinction between when it's out. Outside you, like, for example, if you're listening to me talk, and your attention is over here, and when it's inside you, when you're searching for what meaning is inside, you to articulate
Czan 30:11
Yeah or something, yeah, yeah, yeah,
Josh Lavine 30:16
yeah. Well, that tracks. And do you have a sense of so? Do you have siblings?
Czan 30:24
Yep, I have a younger brother, six years younger, so kind of a large age gap as well. Yeah,
Josh Lavine 30:32
I guess I asked that question because I'm curious about how you show up in relationships, whether it's friendships or romantic partnerships or whatever, and the experience of being fully there in the relationship, like existing in the relationship versus not existing, and how you've experienced that maybe, is there a journey that of that you've gone over in your life around that topic?
Czan 30:59
Yeah, I mean dissociation, right? Is the word that comes up in terms of relationships, or just in things in general, when things get difficult, you know, I just check out. And that's really something I've been like, really consciously working with the past year, a couple years, particularly with psychedelics, and really having that altered state, able to become conscious of dissociation, because the whole point of dissociation is you're not conscious of what's going on. And so it's like my ego is making me not conscious of being, not conscious, you know, and that's and when I get when I actually understand that, that's an extremely terrifying thing, because it's like, what else is my ego not making me conscious about, you know, and and where that's got me now is that, like I I can be in conversations with people, with people, and I can notice when things start to get muffled, like, literally, physically muffled, like, voices start to get muffled. I can't understand what someone is saying anymore.
Josh Lavine 32:13
Yeah, actually, that's so funny. I have a strong secondary nine fix, and I relate to that. I was just thinking about that last night, actually, yeah, go ahead.
Czan 32:19
Yeah, yeah. And so I was like, oh, like, I'm dissociating right now. And then, like, and then, you know, on a good day, like, being able to, like, trace back, okay, where did this start? At what point this start? What emotional response was triggered? When, when this started me into dissociation, and then being able to remain in that emotional state instead of being triggered into dissociation, and that that that emotional state is many times anxiety. Like, I don't let myself be anxious like my my body's just like, nope. Oh, anxiety, nope. Just associate immediately. And for me right now, it's learning to remain in anxiety, learning to remain in the what is that this empathetic realm, instead of this red lining into the whatever
Josh Lavine 33:20
dorsal realm, or whatever
Czan 33:23
you're like, playing dead
Josh Lavine 33:25
vagal theory, yeah, polyvagal theory, or something like that. Yeah, right, right, right, yeah. So,
Czan 33:29
like, it's learning how to, like, remain in, like, my stressed state instead of being, instead of shutting down. And that's and that, for me, is, like, engaging in relationship, like, like, and, you know, part of it, sometimes it comes out in anger. Sometimes it's like, letting myself be stressed and overwhelmed. Like, Oh, wow. I'm like, I'm really overwhelmed right now. I don't know what to do. And like, saying that to another person. And like, you know that that's like, huge for me? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Josh Lavine 33:59
Let's what kind of things are overwhelming.
Czan 34:12
Social situations are very overwhelming for me. Like, what are you go ahead? Feeling Yeah, yeah, just feeling like,
feeling like I can't enter, participate in something, and then I'm kind of just standing in, like it's like, I I want to either be participating or, like, not there, right? And it's worth what the worst part is, when I'm in the middle, like I'm there, but I'm not participating, and, and, you know, and the. Pattern is that, okay, I'm in this place and and I and I, and when I dissociate, I'm like, okay, like, whatever. Like, I'm just standing here, and this is just a pattern for me, right for my childhood, of, like, you know, not like, being told I exist at a different level than other people. So, like, No, this is natural. This is what it's supposed to be. And that, you know, that's like an associate of state at that point, instead of like, sitting in that anxiety of like, oh, wait, what am I supposed to be doing? What are other people doing? Let me, let me ask for help. Maybe, I mean, yeah, that's the huge thing. That's right, let me, let me, let me ask for help, or let me express, express myself, even though it's uncomfortable for other people, because that's gonna be more anxiety inducing, right? So instead, I just like check out, because that's more natural, more comfortable. You know, this
Josh Lavine 36:00
is a, this is a pretty leading question, but I'm just gonna ask anyway, like, how do you experience taking on the discomfort of other people? Or do you experience that? Or, like, the, like, the preemptive, the not wanting to make other people uncomfortable is, like a classic nine fix thing, right? Especially core nine. So, like, yeah, what is that for you?
Czan 36:26
Well, I mean, in terms of the the inner work that I've done, I I've been, like, traced back to my relationship with my mom and how, I mean, yeah, just fee, you know, recognizing that I, I was actually, like, the emotional caretaker of the household, okay, um, because, you know, my parents were immigrants trying to figure out how to help us survive in this new country, right? They had stuff going on. So, like, the the best way, like, like, the best thing I could do since I was a baby, was, like, be okay, you know, like, not need, not need a lot, right? Because they had so much shit going on. Like, the best the best thing, the best thing I could do, or the, or maybe a better way to put is, the most positive feedback I received was from being okay, right? And so and so and I and looking back, I do experience this more with my mom than my dad. My Yeah, so always having to be okay with my mom and like, having to kind of take on her emotional burden so that we could survive as a family.
Josh Lavine 37:52
Yeah? When you say take, yeah, that, that phrase, right there, take on her emotional burden. I mean, that's just, it's a really classic attachment statement, right, taking it No. And can you talk about, like, when you take on whether it's your mom or a relationship partner or someone else's emotional burden, like, what's actually happening there? Or like, how are you do you, are you holding their emotional state in you, or allowing, like, being the padded room for them to just have it, or are you absorbing it into yourself? And then at some point, you realize, oh, I've taken on this thing, and it's not actually mine, right,
Czan 38:32
right? It's like, kind of like, you know, they're carrying some heavy luggage, and I'm, like, helping them carry it. And, right, and we as human beings only have so much emotional capacity, right or emotional capacity and availability, and then me not realizing that I have a limit to my emotional capacity, and because I'm because, it's because being open to carry things is just my natural state. And so then when I reach my capacity and I break down, I either dissociate or I explode. Yeah? And kind of these two patterns have been like the protectors that have been working to use ifs language I don't know if you're familiar with
Josh Lavine 39:21
Yeah, I think it's great, yeah, yeah. So
Czan 39:23
just those two patterns are like the protectors that have been that I've been working with to like that I've been trying to protect this child self of mine that's that's wanting to be themselves in the world, you know? Yeah. So
Josh Lavine 39:45
that's, that's good, yeah. And for people who don't know what ISS, is, it's referring to internal family systems, which is a whole system of therapy where you identify the parts of you that are often kind of entangled or at war with each other and trying to protect other parts of you, and you. Usually there's an inner child at the bottom of the whole thing, and it's a really brilliant and amazing framework to work with yourself. Really amazing. Yeah. So is that something that you work with? Like, is that a a consistent practice for you, or do you work with someone
Czan 40:15
on that? Yeah, yeah. For me, especially when delving into psychedelics. It's a framework that's good, yeah, yeah. That's a framework that, like puts, puts structure through the often nebulous psychedelic experience, that makes it more helpful. I cool, yeah, yeah. In addition to just being free, like, you know, mind freeing and, and, yeah, yeah, let's
Josh Lavine 40:52
talk about psychedelics,
Czan 40:54
yeah, let's do it.
Josh Lavine 40:55
What's, what's, what have they done for you? And what's, yeah, yeah.
Czan 41:02
Well, the, I mean, I think the very immediate thing they do for me is just like, I feel like my mind is very rigid, or at least, you know, I found that out my mind is very rigid in terms of me holding on to my mind. But also, you know, for everyone, this is the patterns that are used in the neural pathways and stuff like that. You know, we use them over and over again. They just get really, yeah, you know what I mean. And so psychedelics have helped me, you know, learn to let go. But then also have kind of helped me reset those neural pathways so that I can form new neural pathways, you know, where I can let go of old neural pathways that are in there aren't helpful anymore, you know. So, yeah, immediately, that's kind of what's coming to mind. Yeah, I
Josh Lavine 41:59
want to zoom out for one second and just like, so what I'm tracking here is that it does, I do actually experience you as a core nine, and like, just your energetic quality has a has that settling nine, like we've landed here together, kind of thing. And I also experience your like this interesting paradox you hold inside, which is the nine absorptive taking on other people's emotional burden, kind of thing at odds with your intellectual independence. And that sounds like a really interesting thing to be working with internally, and is that,
Czan 42:48
let's see, I guess, paradoxical to me is, if that's what you're getting,
Josh Lavine 42:53
you know, yeah, so Well, I'm
Czan 42:57
like, Yeah, had a paradox to you. Yeah?
Josh Lavine 43:05
Because, yeah, let me see,
because it's, it's being on it's being absorptive on one level of existence, and profoundly non absorptive on another in relation to potentially the same person, like, for example, your
Czan 43:32
mom. Yeah, okay, yeah,
yeah. Well, isn't that interesting that we use absorptive as the basis of understanding relation like absorptive or non absorptive, like versus? I mean, you use this word earlier, but independent versus interdependent is another basis of this comparison.
And I guess I viewed more in that way, because that feel that, you know, I guess absorptive, non absorbent, we're putting them at odds, right? Versus independent and interdependent, all right, they don't feel like at odds to me, because, like, in order to be in a relationship to anything, there has to be a self that that thing is in relation with. So, like, I have to be independent in order to be interdependent. Because, because, if I'm not independent, then that that thing or person or whatever can't see me, can't depend on me. So, so that's why, I guess it's not paradoxical to me.
Josh Lavine 44:55
It's so interesting to hear you, just like the exchange of our conversation. If you compare this with triple attachment nines that I've spoken to, it's just like, it's pretty amazing. It's like, the the quality of like, our conversation is, it's like something arises in me, constellates into an idea, and it's like, here's this, here's this little like figurine that I've caught, that I've created as a mental construct. I hand it over to you, and you're like, actually, no, I don't see it that way. I see it this other way, you know. And you kind of reshape it into this other thing, and then you hand it to me, whereas the in triple attachment, nine conversations, it's much more like, I don't like, I almost want to use the word conversation. It's almost like it's not as much of a tennis match. It's more of like a participatory, collaborative, like, kind of ice I'm, I'm I'm, we're in each other's worlds, kind of thing. And I think what's, what's, what's really just at the end of that whole paragraph, amazing to me and striking is the difference between a six picks and a five fix because of the rejection versus attachment and the mental center that we were describing before. But
Czan 46:15
how does that feel for you emotionally? When, when I do that? Because, you know, I think I've gotten some feedback from people that it's not great,
Josh Lavine 46:27
kind of exciting, actually. I mean, for me, it's well, let's see, for me as a person running this interview, it's like I experience a sense of like this, and also being a three, leading with image. It's like, I am saying something, and then you're disagreeing with it. And on some subtle level, it's like, there's the initial like, ah, like, did he? Did he? You know, he not like that. But, you know, take taking a breath. It's like just entering the entering the back and forth, and there's a sense of what, maybe a way to put it is, it feels like there's a there's a certain emotional distance that I have to travel to accept the exchange and then participate in the CO discovery that we're doing as this conversation goes on, because it's like, it's like, for me, I experienced it almost like a an attachment miss or attachment disappointment.
Unknown Speaker 47:39
Okay, not that
Josh Lavine 47:41
I'm having an off rails emotional reaction to it, but tracking what's going on. But what
Czan 47:46
hit for me is that you feel like you have to travel the emotional distance to meet me where I'm at. And I mean, in some cases, like, that's okay, but like, oh, in most conversations, you know, I I don't want the other person to feel that way, you know? I, I want it to feel like we're on equal ground and, like, because to me, like it does feel like a tennis match, you know, like, Yeah, so like, the ball that I'm hitting to you, you're just sitting back to me. So we're, we're the same distance, you know, we're just, we're just hitting things back and forth, and it's fun. I'm glad you're having fun, but, but, yeah, I But yeah, that that kind of tracks with what other people have told me to do
Josh Lavine 48:28
you experience, for you as a because you're, you know, you're a double attachment type with a you have one rejection fix to attachment fixes. And do you experience also, or in any way in this conversation, traveling an emotional distance to meet me, or do you feel more or less self
Czan 48:47
contained? No, I don't have, I don't feel that way. I mean, other than just the interview format, I think it's just, you know, I don't do this every day, so it's, that's, that's the that's the work, I guess. But other than that, I mean, not really. I feel like I'm here and I'm enjoying myself,
Josh Lavine 49:12
yeah? So I'm just taking a breath and seeing where to go from here. Yeah, yeah,
Czan 49:19
that's Yeah. You
Josh Lavine 49:25
know, I think what this is challenging for me is a sense of squaring, like, how is a five fix playing in your type structure versus a six fix? And let me actually, I'll just very, very briefly share like the contours of my theory with you, and then see how it okay. Lands. Okay. So here we'll start a new tennis match. So So my sense is, is that, like our object relational theory, the traditional object relations theory. That, as it's posed in the Enneagram, is attachment, frustration and rejection in relation to something abstract called the nurturing function, or the protective function, or both and or Belinda Gore has it as nurturing, protecting and belonging. Or I've also heard protecting slash guiding in a hyphenated way. And then I also heard someone do protecting, nurturing and guiding as a as a free part. So it's kind of this a little bit swirl of like, where are we in? What is the object? And we're pretty clear about the affect. I think the object needs clarity. And where my theory comes in is basically saying that I think the body center is oriented to the what I'm calling the field of sensation, or holding so like the way that, yeah, the way that, the way that the world is holding me kind of like when you're a one week old infant, you don't actually have senses that are focused enough to be able to distinguish objects in your environment or hold mental maps in your head. You're just basically a body, a wash and a new sensory surround, and you are wanting to be held like the womb. So I think all three body types have a nostalgia for the womb state and are basically the Object Relational affect isn't really is in relation to the way that the world is holding me. So eight is rejecting it. One is frustrated with it. Nine is attached to it. And then, and then, in the heart sensor, you have the same thing with respect to the field of what I'm calling gaze, which is how other people are regarding me, other people's attunement to me, whether or not they're seeing me, and also how I see myself. And so a whole thing around identity. So threes are attached to gays. Fours are frustrated with gays, and twos are rejecting gays. And then in the mental center, the same formulation in relation to the field of orientation. So like six is attached to exogenous orientation, seven is frustrated with it, and five is rejecting it. So in my head, I've been holding this theory for our conversation and really tracking, in a certain sense, how central to you the rejection of orientation is, and the entire exploration that we just had of our what our conversational dynamic is, is kind of in that space, you know. But I'm also curious about the other two parts of you that are attached to what I would be considering the field of gaze or sensation. So I know that was a sort of brand new theory on the spot, but how do you Yeah, can you
Czan 52:21
say more about sensation and holding? Like, what does that mean? Like, how would you further explain it? Yeah,
Josh Lavine 52:28
so the body sensor, I think of as a much more rich and textured thing than we have a way even to understand we generally understand in Western culture. So holding is like, basically anything has a sensory impact on me. The couch also, like my presence on this call right now is having a sensory impact on you. You could say that's vis a vis the social instinct, or just whatever it's like, if someone were to walk into the room right now, that would have a sensory impact on you as well. And if someone were to say, for example, Hey, I made a reservation for 8pm tonight, like, make sure you dress up, or like, be on time, and you didn't consent to it, you didn't know that that was going to happen, that also would have a sensory impact on you, you know. And so the the other people's demands, other people's energies, other people's presence, is forming a kind of sensory holding environment, and the the eight is rejecting it in the sense of like, No, I'm not like, let me put it this way, I'm trying to, like Be concise about this, because it's an interview format, but it's not really concise. I'll just give you the other the rest of it. So my my sense is that what object relations is, is how we construct a false self that is able to cope with misses in our environment, and a sensory miss is like a way that my sensory field is irritating me or overwhelming me or violating me in some way. Okay, so like when you're when you're in the womb, you're just being rocked, you're being held, you're sort of one with mom and stuff, and then all of a sudden you're out of the womb and just even being laid down on a still bed is not the same experience of being rocked in the womb. And so there's a way that your sensory environment is is irritating in a way that you've never experienced before. It's just a different sensory surround. And the rage of the body sensor is like, I didn't choose to be here, and all of a sudden, I'm not bombarded by sense, a sensory experience that I have no control over, and the existential dilemma of the body sensor is, how do I create boundaries to protect myself from irritating and overwhelming sensations? Eight, feels violated by the sensory surround, and so rejects it and creates its own holding environment. One feels constantly frustrated by the sensory surround like that. Health is crooked, or like, that person is doing something and it's having an effect on me, and I just can't numb myself to it. And so, yeah, I have to go fix it. And then the nine is attached in the kind of like, hope that the world will hold me like the wounded, but unpleasant sensations, of course, get in. And and so I numb myself as a way to sort of stay open to the environment while not being overly affected by irritating sensations. That's the, that's the, that's the body sensor. Yeah,
Czan 55:34
of that theory, yeah, okay, yeah, I'm falling Yeah, it's interesting.
During one of my I sometimes sit with Ayahuasca during one of my sits, one very memorable experience I had was I was in the room and I, like my body just and I was sitting up, and my body just did This, like an opening, like you're saying, and like, and I, and then my, what I, and then start to see like it was, like different TV screens, kind of showing up and multiplying like Different TV screens, each TV screen like showing like, experience of something going on. And I could feel, you know, all these experiences, like someone, yeah, getting attacked, or someone, you know, having good time. All these different things are in the room. And then it kept multiplying and multiplying, and then it got too much. And then my body, like, did this kind of contracted in, right? Contracted it and like, yeah, protect. And then, and then it did. And then after a while, I was like, and they did this again, and it repeated, like, you know, an infinite number of times. Is, you know how that feels in that space, like in different number of times and and I was like, living this over and over again, of like, opening and closing and opening and closing and opening and closing and the closing felt so good. Like, like clothing felt so good, and it felt so lonely. And so so I was like, Oh my God. Like, is there no other state, like, is it just either open or close? And then someone, when the facilitators, like, came over and, like, started brushing me with an owl feather, like, like, just brushing me my face, and like, everywhere, and like, and then I could, you know, they were kind of sharing this owl medicine with me, just brushing me, brushing me. And I just started melting. I started just melting into the music and the feather and like, I became an owl and and then I started, like, doing that thing that owls do, of like, using their beaks to, like, you know, get into their feathers, whatever. Yeah, yeah. What is it called,
Josh Lavine 58:33
green printing, preening.
Czan 58:34
Okay, great. Yeah, that's preening. And then I started doing this motion. I started, like, brushing myself. I was like, Oh, this is a new state to be in, not this or this, but brushing preening, like you're saying, preening, so that I can be open to the world, but I can also Preen myself and like shed, you know, things that are not me. And I don't have to be closed off from the world, rejecting the world, or frustrated with the world, right? I don't have to do that and be lonely, you know. And and so that's a long answer to to your um, theory of like holding space and like, the attachment to the to the sensation of holding space and like, because you're saying it's like, you know, Having the hope that the world will hold me, yeah, I guess that's what being open is. Right is having the hope that I can exist in the world,
Josh Lavine 59:52
yes, without being overwhelmed or irritated or Yeah, yeah, yeah,
Czan 59:55
yeah, it can exist in right relation to the world. Yeah. And not just react and respond to that, but by doing this, you know, just preening and so, yeah, I think that's, that's something sensation and holding, yeah, I can like, like me. Preening is me holding myself, you know, exactly, yeah, taking care of myself, and me shedding things that aren't me, but, but, but I'm not closing myself off. Yeah,
Josh Lavine 1:00:28
wow, that is amazing. And, yeah, really beautiful. I I'm it. Let's see I Yeah, it's, it really strikes me that you had only two options right prior to discovering this is like the closed, lonely but safe position, yeah, and the open, participating in the world, but just all of your all of your raw, whatever interior is exposed to the world and overwhelming. Yeah. So this idea of preening represents a certain way that you take a responsibility over washing yourself as you move through the world of whatever impurities you've kind of absorbed or that stick onto you, and it's just in watching your gestures there. It's like the process of that was, I mean, it feels almost like balletic or like I could see how it feels good, you know, I could just see how it was, like, on a sensory level, just yummy, like,
Czan 1:01:47
for, you know,
Josh Lavine 1:01:50
I just did it to myself. Feels really nice. Yeah, it's like, that kind of and so you could say, in a certain sense, I mean, that is, psychedelics are amazing because, and you don't have to know the Enneagram to go on any of these energic journeys, but it's just amazing how, like, that's a nine journey. You know, it's like discovering, discovering your, to use your word, the way you exist in the world, is that this either open or closed state, and then to discover an option where you can actually engage and participate, and that is actually the virtue of the nine, or sometimes it's called engagement,
Czan 1:02:27
yeah, yeah, yeah, totally, yeah.
Josh Lavine 1:02:31
So has that stayed with you? And what's, what's it like, and what's,
Czan 1:02:37
I mean, you know? Yeah, it stayed with me. I try to practice it, you know, but right, it's a, it's a daily practice and and part of it is, you know, I think the word responsibilities is great, like taking responsibility for for doing that, for cleaning myself, for cleaning myself, because, you know, I can go around the world and close off like this and be safe, but, but then I'm not affected by things, and I'm not living, I'm not experiencing life in a way that is meaningful. And, you know, yeah, and being open. Open allows for like being affected allows for experiencing the whole range of emotion, from like terror and sadness and grief all the way to like joy and like, you know, wonder and to survive, you know. But how it's kind of played out in practice, it's kind of, you know, developing strategies like I was talking about earlier, of like noticing, trying to notice when I associate that's one, right? And like tracing back to, oh, what are the particular triggers for that association, and then being responsible for noticing when that trigger rises and then engaging with it, okay, either it was the other other person or the environment, or, like, with myself, like, okay, like, Hold yourself like, like, you can, you know, you can allow yourself to be anxious and and Preen, you know, or, or on the other spectrum, right, right? That's like, the association or the other spectrum of like, exploding, you know, it's a similar, similar strategy of like, noticing when that energy comes up and it feels really good, and noticing when noticing that the lead up to the point of explosion, and like, what sets it off, and like being okay, like, what you're feeling now is repressed energy. You can use that energy, but you don't have to let it out. And, and this is actually from Thich Nhat Hanh. You. He said, like, or someone, someone asked him, like, oh, like, and this is very interesting, I think is a nine. I mean, yeah, what do you do with all this anger? Like, what do you do? Like, I just want to let it all out and, like, express myself. And he's like, like, like, why do you feel the need to do that. Like, why do you feel the need to let it all out? He's like, you know you don't have to waste it. Like, you can think of anger as like mud. Like mud sometimes is like, I'm paraphrasing here, right? Mud isn't like, sticky and grimy and stuff like that. But like, without mud, like lotus flowers can't grow. So like, you know, take care of your mud. And that, to me, is like being responsible for preening, like the mud in me, and like utilizing it to grow lotus flowers, you know. And sometimes it is maybe expressing it right? But like, it's not either or. It's not either dissociating or, like expressing it's not like either repressing or exploding, right? It's, there's always a third option of being responsible for yourself to preen and, you know, to pre in the mud to grow lotus flowers, you know? So, yeah,
Josh Lavine 1:06:24
I don't want to take I think this language is really wonderful, and I don't want to take it into too literal a space, from this poetic, metaphoric space. But what, what is mud and what is the lotus flower? And how do you like in your life? Give
Czan 1:06:41
me like, literal examples, I guess is what you're asking, sure, if you have them, yeah. I mean, the mud is like, I guess in that example is like feelings of anger, right? And rage, and like turning it into energy so that I set it into passion, you know, like expressing passion so that I can make something beautiful in the world. Like feeling a boundary being violated and and expressing that it's violated is a form of passion, instead of like, because, because, in that sense, I am taking responsibility of taking care of myself, instead of, instead of letting things stick to me. Yeah, I don't know. I'm losing, I'm losing my train of thought there. Yeah,
Josh Lavine 1:07:36
do you experience the lotus flower in your work or in your relationships, or in quiet moments by yourself. Something else.
Czan 1:07:53
Yeah, I guess when I'm creating something, right, be it at work or sometimes I do charcoal art. Um, when I'm creating something, I feel like that's those are like the most explicit forms of lotus flowers, because there's like, a tangible manifestation of something that I've created from, like this mud that I've been cultivating.
Josh Lavine 1:08:21
Yeah, just strike me that it might not actually be like this concrete, like, here's my present, here's my lotus flower. World, it's kind of like feels. It feels like the way that you're using that term is a kind of inner blossoming that is the the the the feeling of being willing to open as you, as you engage in the process of continually preening, yeah, yeah. I
Czan 1:08:51
think that's right, yeah, yeah, yeah. So more of like an internal blossoming, yeah. So like turning, turning that mud into beautiful energy, yeah, yeah.
Josh Lavine 1:09:13
Well, I feel like that's a pretty lovely place to stop.
Czan 1:09:18
Okay, yeah, yeah. I don't know how long, how long do these usually go or, like,
Josh Lavine 1:09:23
I know, because anywhere between an hour and, like, an hour and a half or so usually, okay, okay, um, is there anything that we haven't touched on that would be that you want to
Czan 1:09:36
No, I mean, I think that was That felt really good. I felt really energetic and, and, yeah, how did it feel from from your from your point of view, like, you know, having done these a lot,
Josh Lavine 1:09:51
yeah, really, really good, actually. Yeah, I'm struck by, I love the I loved our meta conversational moment. And then bringing in the psychedelic thing is, like, pretty incredible. I just, I'm a big psychedelic believer, and have had a number of experiences myself that have been incredibly powerful as well. So I'm really glad that you brought
Czan 1:10:13
it there. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Actually, I
Josh Lavine 1:10:17
want to ask, I want to ask one other thing, okay,
Czan 1:10:22
about
Josh Lavine 1:10:24
attachment to disconnect, just because I don't know that everyone will have heard what that actually is. And so maybe just, can you explain what it is and what what it was that made you think of it, and how it's revealed stuff about you, and kind of where you're at working with it yourself.
Czan 1:10:43
Yeah, I don't remember particularly what, what, uh, inspired that, or figure that, you know, because it was some post on Facebook, I guess that I responded to, but um, but basically, right? It's um, because the core pattern of attachment is adaptation, or I'm adapting to something, if I'm not adapting, then, like, then my that's ego death, right? Or like, my ego doesn't know what to do. So like, not explodes. So, so in order to create or in order to keep that going, we need to create circumstances, circumstance where we can adapt. So if we're familiar or comfortable, that's not adapting anymore. So we have to create circumstances to pull ourselves away so that the environment changes, oh, now that I can adapt again, so it keeps that adaptation behavior going. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And
Josh Lavine 1:11:40
that's excellent, and it's partly what was so revelatory about the idea was that it was, in a certain sense, clear how frustration and rejection were, maybe you could say, constantly creating the conditions in which their object relation was at play. But attach, kind of like attachment. Well, if you're attaching, attachment, sort of prior to your revelation, felt like the good object relation, like, that's what you should be wanting, wanting to do, right? It's like, Yeah, great. Attach to people, and then everyone's happy. But that's not actually what attachment is referring to from an object relations point of view, it's like attachment is the way that we not only attempt to create some form of connection, but also participate in the creation of the connection conditions in which we're continually reaching for that
Czan 1:12:34
connection. Yeah, yeah. Attachment. That. That's a terrible word. I hate that word because of the Enneagram context, because it's like, it's meaningless. There's no meaning to it, you know, yeah, yeah. And
Josh Lavine 1:12:48
Courtney also says, I mean, that word had no juice for her when she originally heard it, kind of, it's true for me too. I wonder if there's, do you have a better
Czan 1:12:55
one? No. I mean, like, disconnect, right? But like, because in my comment, I was like, oh, frustration types are attached to frustration. They're attached to creating circumstances where they're frustrated. Yes, attached to create rejection. Types are attached to creating circumstances where they can reject or and where they continually feel rejected. Whereas attachment types are attached to disconnect where they can maybe adaptation. I don't know where they definitely create circumstances to, you know, adapt. So maybe, maybe adaptation, but that doesn't ring, you know, yeah, okay,
Josh Lavine 1:13:36
well, are you still like percolating on Enneagram stuff. And you're, I imagine that you are in your, yeah, the chamber.
Czan 1:13:46
I'm percolating. I'm percolating on it, percolating on it, and, um, I'm percolating on it more in the world these days, in terms of, like, so, um, I guess we, we didn't have time to get into this, or, I don't know, this past year I've been getting into fitness as a way to, like, get into my body and done like, amazing things for like, my mental capacity and my emotional openness. It's, it's interesting to see that relationship of like engaging with my body, and like learning how to be in my body more, and how that translates over to the other centers, sure. And so I've been trying to live in, like the Enneagram, instead of theorizing it, which is, you know, it's not typical of me, like I've always just been a very cerebral person general, and so getting into fitness and doing difficult things in my body, pushing myself to be able to handle discomfort in the physical realm has translated to being able to handle discomfort emotionally. So. Uh huh, yeah, so, yeah, beautiful,
Josh Lavine 1:15:06
yeah. Well, dude, thank you so much for this. This is a, yeah, I really, I really enjoyed this conversation.
Czan 1:15:12
Yeah, me too. Thanks for having me on here. So it's, this is great, great to talk to you too.
Josh Lavine 1:15:16
You got it, yeah? Okay, well, until next time, thanks, Josh, you.
