Emily 0:00
I think that a lot of the examples that we've talked about have shown, you know, things that are a big part of who I am, like, you know, like, let's say the toughness, like hard working intensity, straight talking, like power in social situations, all these types of things. And, you know, in for me, especially having gone through the years of the therapy that I did, that's not really the way that I see myself in anymore, in a very forward way. I i actually really often describe myself to other people as, like, very sensitive, and I, my experience of the world is in that way. Welcome
Josh Lavine 0:44
to another episode of what it's like to be you. I'm Josh Lavine, your host today. My guest is a very good friend of mine named Emily Tormey. Emily is a type eight, although I would like to make a disclaimer up front, Emily is an Enneagram skeptic. She let me, for the course of this conversation, ask her questions about what it's like for her to be an eight. However, she does not embrace the Enneagram or her typing as eight, and so she wasn't really answering from the point of view of being an eight. She was just answering from her own personhood. But as I said, she let me ask her these questions, and she is, as you'll see, open to having this kind of thing out there in the world, because she believes that introspection and self reflection and things like that are really valuable. And to the extent that the Enneagram helps people do that, then she's Game Full Disclosure. My perspective on Emily's typing is that she is with the help of the enneagrammer team, is that she is a social self pres eight with a nine, wing, 836, tri fix. A couple things about Emily. Emily, for context, went to undergrad and Yale. She's from Seattle originally, and she also went to Oxford for Business School. She also rode professionally on the Irish national team, and is just an extraordinary athlete in many ways. We talk about her marathon training and stuff in the interview, and one of the things I love about this interview and about Emily is that the interview contradicts what I think are some unfair stereotypes about eight that eights are all crash and bang all the time. And what's amazing about Emily, and what really drew me to her as a friend is how warm and tender she is. She has such a soulfulness and such a she really does lead with with her heart, and just a beautiful example of an eight who is in touch with their hearts and has a very expansive warmth that she kind of envelops her friends with and I was just a real pleasure to live with her for two years, and I still consider her one of my best friends. One interesting dynamic in this interview is that it is the very first interview that I ever conducted in this series. I did like 10 interviews before I published the first one, and this is actually the very first one I ever did, and Emily was very kind to con to volunteer herself for this little experiment. The reason I bring that up is because you can tell during the interview that I'm pretty nervous. And the reason I bring this up at all, actually, is not because of some self conscious admission, but because it's interesting to see my type structure, being a social three embarking on a new project, asking penetrating questions that are digging into territory that are potentially uncomfortable for my friend, and being visibly nervous doing so in contrast with Emily's eight ish solidity and inner strength and unflappability. So I'm very excited for you to learn from my friend Emily. And without further ado, here she is. Let's kick it off. I'm really curious about so when we lived together, I was I tried to bring you into the Enneagram world, and I think I did a pretty sloppy job of it. And so I would like to just hear you talk about your Enneagram journey, like, how did you how did you hear about it? You can talk about me and the way that I introduced you to it, and you can even talk about what was sort of not so good about it, because I think it'll be instructive. And I'm curious about where you are now, in terms of your being a person who is interested in Enneagram, and also, how do you know you're a type eight, sort of, all of that? Lebo,
Emily 4:32
great. Well, that's kind of a meaty question. So I guess to start with, I mean, I'll cut you a little bit of slack, because I don't know if you're like, you were intentionally bringing me along this journey of the Enneagram with you, as much as it was an accidental thing that your roommate happens to be around when we're chatting about it. But I would say, I mean, in general, I come from a pretty skeptical mindset when it when it comes to. Things like personal development frameworks, primarily because I'm reticent about anything that could kind of sit, sit, sit, as a counterpoint to a growth mindset where you're thinking of yourself as binary, like I am this. I am not this in a fundamental way, and from someone as someone who has a really deep background in athletics, not only in my own kind of experience as an athlete, but also having grown up, you know, my dad was a football coach, and my family is very big into sports, sort of maintaining that sense of identity as very fluid is incredibly important to the way that I view myself and the way that I view my ability to kind of grow and change as I get older. So in general, I would say, okay, yeah. So
Josh Lavine 5:52
just go. I just I, this is my listening face. I get very still.
Emily 5:58
I forgot about that. Yeah. But then also, like to be honest, kind of someone who comes from a branding background as well, I find, like the Enneagram branding to be like a little occult ish. So that is also a bit of a turn off. And then those two things, I would say, are the primary reasons why I didn't initially take to it. And then secondly, as you know, like, I took the Enneagram test and then was typed as a seven, which in some ways really resonated, especially thinking about a healthy seven who's very experienced, focused and very positive and dynamic, but in an unhealthy perspective, is, I think, very like, in like, I can't quite remember, but very indulgent and very kind of regresses into a state of, you know, let's say, potentially going out a lot. Whereas for me, when I'm having a challenging moment, I'm much more likely to kind of recede into myself, into quiet, into solitude, and into sort of a more protective state. So there were a lot of aspects around that that didn't resonate with me,
Josh Lavine 7:08
right, right? And so what changed as you like, how did take us through the journey? Like, how did you learn that you're an eight, and then how do you know that you're an eight?
Emily 7:20
Well, I don't know that. I'm an eight and to be honest, like I still feel, I still feel more skeptical about the Enneagram, probably than anyone else I've ever met. Why?
But I mean, the way that it basically happened, actually, I was talking to a mutual friend of ours, who, who, and about this exact topic, who suggested that maybe I actually was an eight rather than a seven, and just based on the describe myself, I think she had done one of your
Josh Lavine 7:51
workshop works, yeah.
Emily 7:54
And then looking actually a little bit more at the characteristics of an eight, and particularly like the unhealthy patterns of an eight. It felt it just resonated with me a lot more, and actually sat with me in a much more like solid and kind of right way than than having thinking of it through the lens of a seven. And I would say that that like did resolve a little bit, but I was still like for me that the fact that the potential for the test to mistype me was another point against another point in validation of the fact that the Enneagram is very imperfect and in scientific and should be trusted as a way for you to lean on in a really robust way. And I wouldn't say it was actually, until I, like, really, left, left New York and went to business school where, like, a lot of people I know, would we kind of be chatting about the Enneagram, and they'd be like, oh, what type are you? Oh, you're, you're an eight. Oh, it makes so much sense, you know. Like, I think that opened me up to it a little bit more, sort of from that, like, more of a bonding perspective, and and now, I mean, I'm, I would say I'm, I'm open to it more as a lens of, like thinking about how I can develop myself. I often kind of think about, I mean, in general, one of the things that I'm kind of constantly like trying to reinforce with myself is, like, you know, vulnerability and openness are really, like the a true form of strength. As someone who's like, very likes to traditionally kind of control a lot, and, you know, kind of be in that kind of self, self defensive, and, you know, more in that type of position, I have to, I have to remind myself of that. And in that sense, I would say I've kind of embraced being a type eight, but I still have challenges even accepting the idea of like typing another person. And I haven't, I haven't really warmed up. To that idea yet. So if someone embraces that for themselves and says, you know, oh, I'm a three, then it's easier for me to kind of accept that about them and use it as an insight. But I'm really not comfortable with the idea of typing someone else and then using that as an insight for how I engage with them.
Josh Lavine 10:13
Okay, cool. Well, I one thing I always love and appreciate about you is your radical honesty. So, so I appreciate your perspective. Um, so one of the things that just like really back to basics for a second with respect to the type eight, and I understand that maybe we're not 100% sure that you're type eight, but I'm just going to talk broadly about some of the eight patterns and see what you relate to. So you know each type can be characterized by a kind of basic Fear and Desire. And for the type eight, the basic fear is of being in a position where others could have control over me, or a word that could hurt me. And the basic desire is to feel independent, strong, alive to being controlled by life and my situation. How does that live in you?
Emily 11:06
Yeah, what I was gonna say is that, now that you've set the stage for complete honesty, I have to say that, like, as you were describing that, like initial part of the aid i I definitely felt a little uncomfortably seen. Okay, yeah, in turn, especially, I think for me, in terms of it's been a lot, it's been a long kind of journey of, like unpacking those types of, I would say, kind of control patterns, and like being in power up wanting to be in power up positions in situation, situations across the board, right? I would say, like, one area where that's definitely true for me is, I mean socially and in my love life as well. I would say socially, I tend to, like, lean on a pattern where I am someone who is a person that's like, sought after, and so I'm just sort of like, on a weekly basis, like, you know, it sounds really douchey to say, but kind of like sorting through the invitations that, like, I will say yes to, whereas I very rarely, kind of like, will go out of my way to put myself out there for to create a relationship with someone else in that sense. And I would say that that pattern somewhat does kind of hold true in situations of love as well, and makes it very hard for me to fall in love with someone romantically.
Josh Lavine 12:33
Yeah, I hear that. Are you willing to say a little more about this being in a power up position, like, what is that? What's the inner experience of that for
Emily 12:43
you? Yeah, I mean, I
being in a power up position. I guess it's really again, kind of comes back to not, like not never being let down by others, and behind that as well, like never being let down by myself. So I think there's kind of a fear of, like, a fear of getting hurt in the sense that, like someone else could hurt me, but that also, if I put myself out too far, I've exposed myself and shown myself to be somehow incapable of, like self protection in that way. And you know, I think probably when I was young, I became, like, pretty, pretty intensely geared towards self protection, right? And so by being kind of keep, you know, keeping my distance from people in this way, it's, it's a really, it's, it's, yeah, it's a way to kind of maintain that,
Josh Lavine 13:53
right, right? What is, can you, what does power up mean? Like, what does, what does it mean to be in a power up position? Or, how do you know when you're when you're in one or how do you know if you're powered down?
Emily 14:06
I find it often depends on, like, who's in control? I mean, power up, power down, like, who's in control of the framing of room, of a conversation, of an information, for example, like, you know the ball is in whose court, and to be in a power up position means the ball is kind of always in your court, and you also have more control over the way that the the way that that's moving right,
Josh Lavine 14:35
right. It's fascinating to me. It's so what we what I hear from a lot of hates is the sense of it's this is just where my attention goes. It's not, it's not like a choice that I make to for my attention to go here. So this is how somehow my unconscious is wired to be paying attention to power dynamics and whether or not I have control in the situation, and whether or not. It's not like having an escape hatch. It's just like, Are my hands on the wheel, or am I at the mercy of someone else? And
I'd love to hear actually, are
you in touch with? Are you able to give some words to like, what is? What is the fear like, what happens? What would happen if you were at the mercy of someone else's control, or if you were, if you were in a power down position?
Emily 15:38
Well, I mean, I think again it comes back to like, you know, there's nothing like now, especially as an adult, like, there's nothing really that being in a there's nothing really that being in a power down position can, like, really negatively impact me. I think it comes more into this, like, does it chip away at this vision of who I am as someone that's incredibly independent and self sufficient, and when you make a judgment, when, when you allow someone else to let you down, then that almost reflects badly for me, that, like calls into question, you know, my judgment of this other person, or my ability to take care of myself and control my life and My own destiny, it's sort of, you know, when you I think it, for me, it comes back to that, like it's like self trust, and every time someone else kind of lets me down, in a way, I feel like it degrades myself, my own trust of myself,
Josh Lavine 16:33
that is fascinating. Yeah, there's like this. There's the equation of, if someone lets you down, then it was like your judgment to trust them. Reflection on you. Yeah, that's interesting. Yeah, okay, slightly shift topic. I'm curious about a lot of AIDS talk about the feeling of being protective, not just of themselves, but of the people they care about. What's that like for you? Does? Does that resonate as true?
Emily 17:05
That is very Yeah, it definitely, it does. It does somewhat resonate as true. I think as I've, like, probably, I when I was in high school on, like, through early adulthood, I would say I was a lot more combative. I've come like, pretty significantly away from that, both when it comes to things revolve involving my own life, but also with other people, because I don't necessarily see it as productive in a way that maybe I used to, but I I do kind of have a very intense reaction when now it's more if it's someone who I'm like, very, very close to, like, for example, you know, if some someone were something, someone were to do something to, you know, let's say, put my sister in a bad position. Like, you know, it's, it definitely, yeah, it's something that I would feel like, compelled. To step into I probably wouldn't, but I it would. It's a very strong reaction, yeah,
Josh Lavine 18:11
okay, this is, this is, I think, something that's really important to understand. And I'm curious, if you have words for like, you use the word compelled? Can you talk about that? What that energy is like? What? What does it feel like?
Emily 18:27
Um, what does it feel like to be compelled? Um,
I mean, it's just like a it's like anything else, I guess it's just like a rallying of all the atoms in your being, in your body, to, or in your body, your existence, to, you know, to react in a certain way. And I feel so like, and, you know, instinctual. And it's like very, I've thought a lot about, you know, what does it mean for people to be like, very like, pack oriented, or kind of Clan oriented. And I do kind of see myself a little bit more like, leaning in that direction in ways that, again, I've, like, kind of tried to unpack and and neutralize a little bit, but, yeah, it's just a sense of, like, you know, almost an instinctual sense of, like, really, like, needing to protect the people and the things that you might need, the people that you love. Yeah,
Josh Lavine 19:22
I love your phrasing, the rallying of every atom in your being. So what's it like for you now? So one of the things that's so cool about you is just you're you have just this beautiful capacity for self reflection. And so as you talk, you talk about your journey of being more, this is my word, not yours, like self restraining or like your word was neutralized, like neutralizing that, that intensity or something like that, I. So what's that like for you or and what makes that hard, and where are you at with it? Yeah,
Emily 20:07
that's a really, that's an interesting question. Thank you for that question. I would say it's less like restraining and even neutralizing isn't the right word, but probably more just like letting go and realizing as well, that like, a lot of the like kind of reactions, and particularly like, you know, as someone who comes into kind of a like, fight or flight, you know, everyone comes into a fight or flight mode at certain points, but I think understanding when that's happening for you and when it doesn't necessarily need to be happening, okay, and starting to program yourself out of patterns that were maybe developed, like early on, to let yourself just kind of like live in a more like peaceful way, and also, like, you know, I think in a in a way that one of the great things in my experience who I am is, is my sense of will, and, you know, my ability to kind of see that out in the universe, but also recognize that it's up to other people to to, you know, exert that in their own lives. And like, if they need me, they can call on me, but it's not necessarily my place to, you know, add a lot of energy where it's not asked
Josh Lavine 21:19
for, right? Right? So it sounds like there's this quality of discernment around what is and is not a useful use of your energy, or maybe useful isn't. Do you have a more precise use word for that useful? Like,
Emily 21:40
yeah, I mean, for me, like, when it comes to, like, other people and protection, I would say, like, Is it, is it asked for, or is it sought from that person
Josh Lavine 21:55
got it and, yeah, okay, cool. Just because I know you, I want to bring up a couple things. I forget exactly what the situation was, but you were, I think, applying to business school, and then you had a conversation, I think it was with your dad, and he, he said something like, what did you think you were just going to walk in, you know, to and just, do you remember this? Do you remember the moment that I'm talking about? He, like, he listened to you, and then he also just, like, gave it to you straight in a way that was, like, kind of a bit of a gut punch, but it felt good. And then you told me after the conversation that that is what love is like for you. You're like, that's that kind of thing. Makes me feel really loved. When people just get really kind of bring it, you know, in a way, that's like they're seeing me, but also they're they're not just softly receiving me, they're also, like bringing themselves to to the interaction. Can you say more about that? Like, what is it like? Like, what makes you feel loved?
Emily 23:01
Well, that, that's a pretty loaded question. What makes me feel loved, I guess, and maybe, maybe I can get to that through the lens of this, this experience as well. But, yeah, I mean, for the purpose of that specific example, I went one of my business school interviews. You know, I tend to be someone who's, like, very, very confident, particularly in interview situations, because I am very verbal, and I find I feel that I navigate social situations with a lot of ease. And so I, you know, I sat down in the in the interview, and the woman was like, just really, like a borderline rude for like, the 75 minutes or whatever. And it was shocking to me, in a way, but yeah, my dad definitely listened with empathy. But then at the end, was like, Well, exactly what you said, What did you think you were going to be able to waltz in and they were going to receive you with open arms and say, welcome. Please join, join us. Honestly, I did think that for the record. So the reason why it's important for me to have people in my life, I mean that that I think the first thing is, like really actively listening and listening with empathy, and here we actually are able to hear what you're saying, but then to take it kind of a next step is to It's uncomfortable to give people really your honest opinion. Like, if you there, how many people, when you think about your own friends and what you actually would say to them, if you were, you know, like, let's say writing an anonymous letter, and you were like, I actually think that you should dump that person that's like, verbally abusive to you or no one. Actually, it's very rare for people to do that, even for the people that are closest to them in their lives, it takes a lot of courage, takes a lot of gods, and it takes a lot of love. And so that's why, for me, it's those kind. Of like, two, two levels when it comes to at least communication support, of like, being, being an incredibly empathetic and and thoughtful listener, but then also having the kind of God's encourage to give an an authentic read and an authentic voice to to, you know, the person that you care
Josh Lavine 25:21
for, right, right? And this is something that you do for your friends, too.
Emily 25:27
Yeah. I mean, I really, I try to do it. I really try to do it when it's particularly, like, if it's if it's as if it's an important situation, if it's not, I more and more kind of let it go. And I also, to be honest, if I think the other person can't risk like, I mean, my judgment of that they can't receive it, or they're not in a position to receive it, then I will hold back. But if I if I feel that I can say it in a way that's productive, then I will try to, yeah,
Josh Lavine 26:01
okay, couple other couple other stories.
Once we were, I believe it was at your picnic, going away from from New York, and I forget what his name is. I'm gonna have to share his name, but he was your, your friend from Google. He came and we had, there was probably like 10 people on a picnic blanket in Thompson square, pumpkin Square Park, yeah, and, and there was a moment everyone was having, laughing, having a good time. There were drinks flowing. There was some snacks. And he made a joke that was sort of an offhand joke, but it was, it was, like, a little bit derogatory towards women and and you pounced on this moment. Um, do you remember the moment I'm talking about?
Emily 26:55
No, I don't. You don't I mean, I kind of a little bit, but you'll have to finish telling the story.
Josh Lavine 27:01
So I'm protecting his identity, but, but he said, he he said some sort of offhand comment about, oh well, you know, that's the way it is, because she's a woman. And you were like, Oh, tell me more about that. And he was like, Oh, well, you know. And then he started to defend his joke. But he knew that he was on icy he knew he was on thin ice. You're like, oh yeah, because, because she's a woman, I see the joke because, and you kind of laid it out, like explained it, you know, the underlying logic of the joke to him, and then kind of forced him to deal with the you get the point I'm making. Yeah,
Emily 27:44
yeah, yeah,
Josh Lavine 27:45
yeah. I
Emily 27:47
mean, I kind, I do kind of vaguely remember that moment and I, I, but it's a moment that I've lived over, like many, many times. Yeah, that's,
Josh Lavine 27:55
that's what I'm wondering. Okay, yeah, I guess we covered it a little bit, but I'm curious if you have anything else to say about that particular to say about that particular thing, because that's, that's the thing, just to give some Enneagram context to it, is eights don't have a monopoly on doing this, but they are certainly the the type that that demonstrates, for us more than any other, the willingness to go toe to toe in a situation like that, not to take shit from people you know, and just to seize the moment to stand up for something you believe in. And, yeah,
Emily 28:32
yeah. Well, I mean, I think for me, the comfort around that comes with having grown up in a very like combative environment where, in a lot of, like, really high energy type of arguments, you're, you know, thinking on your toes really quickly. And I guess, yeah, in those types of moments, I would say those things happen less and less as I get older, because it, you know, it has to be pretty important, or have to really kind of believe in it, to kind of have that moment of just like, you know, it's almost like, I can't, like, really describe the feeling, but it's almost just like something just kind of like clicks, and then it's Like, you're just moved to act in this way, and I almost can't stop myself once I'm on the track. But whereas I used to have a more kind of aggressive style, I think now I tend to do that a little bit more, just like, strip it back in a way that is to be honest, like it's a little bit it's a little bit, like, uncomfortable, right? Because you're peeling the other person back, and you're forcing them to kind of like you're putting them on the spot in a way that's like, not really that nice,
Josh Lavine 29:50
but
Emily 29:53
yeah, it's definitely, it's, I guess it's, maybe it's a way of, like, feeling that kind of protective. Instinct a little bit for myself, but then also for other people, or, you know, in this case, like women in general. But yeah,
Josh Lavine 30:10
yeah, yeah, I feel that cool. One other story, okay? And then I want to, I want to talk to you a little bit about your startup journey. But one other story, this was like one of the moments that I got most into trouble with you, was the moment of of the martyr, the margarita and bicycle night.
Emily 30:41
Yes, okay,
Josh Lavine 30:42
yeah, really, yeah, yeah. Well, so just the gist of the gist of this was, we've been quarantined in COVID with our other with another sort of temporary roommate. We were a little bit going crazy, and we one night, we made some margaritas, and then we went up for a bicycle ride, and you split off from the group, and there was a let's see me and the other roommate were worried about You, and we're trying to call you and bring you back home, and when you got back home, there was, how do I want to put this? It revealed, like, a really interesting, like, fundamental philosophical difference, that it was like, I felt that I was trying to protect you. I was worried about you. You were like, you know, a woman out on the streets of New York on a bicycle at like, two, 3am in a vulnerable position, and what you said to me was, it's basically, it's my life, and if it's my choice to do that, then I should have the right to do that, and you don't get to basically tell me what to do. And then it was actually what was interesting about that to me was it was so it was even the position you held was so deep and strong that it was even like when we talked about it a couple weeks later, it was like the intensity was still there. There was like, still heat around it. And I wonder even if there's around it for you now. But can you say a little bit about that? Like, what is the, what's the, what's the heat around that? Or what's the, what's the fundamental value?
Emily 32:39
Wow, yeah, there is still some heat around that. So,
Josh Lavine 32:43
okay, yeah, well, I
Emily 32:49
mean, I could add some more details to the story.
Josh Lavine 32:51
Okay, go ahead.
Emily 32:56
Um, yeah, I mean, I think the thing that really, what, like a little bit tip me over the edge, kind of, I feel like we're opening some old wounds. Here was the like threatening to call the police, which was, I
Josh Lavine 33:16
forgot about that. That's right. Okay,
Emily 33:21
yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, I guess, like, coming back to the fundamental value, I mean, yeah, I guess exactly what I said, like, you know, I'm an adult, I've, you know, my my life, my life is my responsibility. You know, I, I gave you the courtesy of letting you know where I was, and then I was okay, and then it was my decision to stay out.
Josh Lavine 33:51
And then I felt that you overstepped your boundary in your kind of demand for me to act in a way that you felt like was appropriate for my circumstance, right, right? So, the and, so the demanding, like, that's the reason I bring the story up, is because it's to me. It really gets to the the feeling in AIDS. It's like, my independence is precious and, like, sort of, don't tell me what to do, please. Um, and my life, like, I'm in control of my life.
Emily 34:31
It's not that my independence is precious. I like that I was, like, complete. Like, wrong wording. It's that my independence is, like, is so solid and so fundamental that it's completely untouchable by you and like, in this sense, like, it's really my way or the highway. Like,
Josh Lavine 34:54
yeah, great, yeah, that's what I this is, that's great. Um. You. How do you feel right now that talking about
Emily 35:04
it, I feel, I still feel surprised by what happened, actually looking back on that evening, and yeah, I guess I still kind of feel surprised about it, and feel surprised that that's that's feels like something that would happen, you know, more like late teens, early 20s, like, let alone people in their 30s, to be gallivanting around New York having that happen. But, yeah, okay, I would say it's rare that a situation makes me feel like as intensely emotional now as as that
Josh Lavine 35:45
situation did, what say that one more time.
Emily 35:50
It's rare for a situation now to make me feel that's like outside of a romantic or relationship context, right? Right?
Josh Lavine 35:59
Yeah, yeah. Okay. Cool. Yeah, okay, let's dig into your startup for a little bit. Maybe just first, like, what appealed to you about starting a company and and how did you come up with the idea? Like, can you just take us on the journey of how it came to be?
Emily 36:15
Yeah, sure. Happy to So, as I've kind of mentioned, my background, my early background was really like in sports and athletics, so a road for a long time, growing up in my undergrad, and then full time for a couple of years as well, which was, you know, kind of an important like mindset shaping experience that led to, I think, when I did go into a full time corporate career as a brand strategist, and then as a, as a, as a marketer in tech, a feeling of, sort of just like lacking a little bit of intensity and purpose and what I was doing. And one of the reasons that's one of the reasons that precipitated me going to business schools to basically take some time off, recover some kind of, like intellectual inspiration and and I don't know, sense of like, what meaningful work could look like, um, and through kind of discovering more about entrepreneurship and startups and talking to founders kind of started to see the world as just a much more aligned with, first of all, the way that I kind of had like to structure my activities and pursuits as an as an athlete, I guess, just given kind of this small team and the sense of like, you know, exerting some kind of your creative life force into the world through the lens of business. And so I in business school, did it, did a few things. You know, consulted for a startup and founded an incubator, and then met my co founder, and we founded a company to automate health insurance for US based psychotherapists. And then we worked on that for, let's say, five months or so, and then we ended up being basically misaligned between the CO founding team, and decided to and with a number of other kind of factors that were in there as well around the space, the complexity of the space and our expertise, and then decided to kind of dissolve after at that point,
Josh Lavine 38:37
Before raising funds. Okay, got it. Yeah, so good.
Emily 38:45
No, we can put we can pause there. I was gonna like, I mean, I'm trying to, like, resist going into like, my professional pitch mode where I'm like, and now, yeah, so why don't we just
Josh Lavine 38:57
chat about that? Okay, cool. So one thing, just from an Enneagram perspective, that I want to hone in on is the sense of, and now I forgot your phrasing, but something like a startup being an avenue for unleashing your creative life force into the world. And one thing that we talk about with AIDS a lot is the sense of, I want to have an impact on the world. I want to my will is very important to me. I like to, I like to be constructing things, to be doing stuff in the world. And so, as you might imagine, AIDS self select a lot into the startup world as founders and and really in lots of realms of life. They're people who are. They're take charge people. They like to do stuff. And so can you talk a little bit more about that? Yeah,
Emily 39:49
I would say, like, let me just pause and think about it. Yeah.
Yeah, I mean, I think it comes back to, like, basically what I said around just this feeling of being alive through the exertion of, I mean, there's, like creative life force is kind of the best way that I've started to describe it for myself. And I find it. I find it almost, I mean, in my like experience working in the corporate world, I find it very challenging to have that experience in an organization that's so big, where that you know you're not doing like, mission critical activities on a daily basis. I think, I think I need to feel that like I'm on the edge of, like a win or lose on almost a constant basis, to really kind of feel that sense of that I'm applying myself in a way that's like worthy of of my life,
Josh Lavine 40:56
uh huh. And when you're not on the edge of win or lose, then what does it feel like,
Emily 41:03
oh, it's sort of like, what's the point? It's like, it's like, Seabiscuit, you know, if there's no horse in the race, like he just, kind of, I mean, I just kind of lose motivation, you know, hang out, enjoy life. So I really, kind of, I really default, I would say, into those two extremes. And I in order to, like, really feel alive, I like to be in a very intense environment,
Josh Lavine 41:28
right? And you're using this word alive, which is a very important eight word, the sense of feeling alive. And, yeah, so. And I love how you also talk about your experience, or your desire to go into startups, having been an athlete, and being an athlete, but just being the kind of person who put yourself through these kinds of put yourself in the in the kinds of experiences where you're going to have to exert your life force to kind of get get to that edge. And you know, one thing that I find interesting and inspiring about eights a lot is that this is like, they seek this kind of thing. They seek to challenge themselves in these kinds of ways, like I'm thinking even of like your training, your solo training for a marathon in New York, where just to for the for the friends watching like you would go on these you rigorously kept to your own marathon train schedule, and would even come back after a 20 mile run and then with two bags of ice, and dunk yourself into an ice bath for 10 minutes, which after which was just amazing to Me, not just the fact that you ran 20 miles. 20 miles, but also that you and I, I'm imagining this also came from your training as a rower. Like this is something that you do to for your body. But like the intensity of having run 20 miles and then the intensity of plunging yourself into an ice bath, these are the kinds of things that eights are showing us are possible with our bodies, like pushing our bodies to it to an extreme that we wouldn't otherwise feel as possible.
Emily 43:11
Yeah, I mean, you have to do the ice bath, otherwise you won't have any energy to go out at night. So critical component of the training schedule.
Josh Lavine 43:26
So the Okay, just going back to the startup for a second. The so the journey altogether. How many months were you working on it?
Emily 43:39
Well, we were probably like leading up and ideating for, like, honestly, I don't like to say this, but it was probably, like, six or seven months, and then we were working on, like, the actual when we settled on the idea, and we, I mean, we pivoted a couple times, but we were operating within a pretty narrow space for five months and making that idea so I would say, Yeah, for the properly, we were working on it for like five months,
Josh Lavine 44:03
okay, and it was just the two of you, right, yeah, yeah, okay, what should I ask about it?
Emily 44:20
I mean, I would say, like, one interesting question that I've gotten recently, which relates to both, like, athletics and startups and work contacts, is around teams, yeah, and expectations for other people, and how that's communicated, and how that, how that results in different leadership styles and, like, I think one thing that I learned a lot about leadership, like, throughout my undergrad and throughout, like, a lot of my rowing career, through a lot of error, trial and error, because I think I tended to, I tended and now, yeah, maybe I've mailed out a little bit, but to have, like, the most intense. Mindset and be a little bit as I mentioned to you earlier, like my way or the highway, in the sense that everyone should be doing 150% and if you're not, then, you know, get off the team, basically. And for me, like watching that practice alienate people and actually cause me and the team to kind of like, fail, like, you know, crumble in a bigger way than actually strengthen other people. Was a big eye opener for me in terms of, like, leadership styles, right? And I would say it was definitely, like a big confidence killer on the leadership front as well. Sometimes I still question, question my leadership abilities, because, because of some of my, like, early athletic experiences. But I do think that there for for at least speaking from my own experience, that like the mindset of intensity around like my own work and my own approach definitely extends in terms of expectations for the people that I work closely with,
Josh Lavine 46:03
yeah, yeah. And was that, even with just you working with a co founder, was that, how did those dynamics come into
Emily 46:15
play? Wow, that actually is a really interesting case study, because my co founder was more intense than I was, and it was, it was a sticking point. So for example, like, one of the things that you know about me is that I am very like, can can be pretty rigid in terms of my routine for like, sleep and exercise and things like that. Yeah. So I don't really like, I don't really like to work more than 60 hours a week, which probably some people they're watching are like, Oh, you softy. Like, I would never start a business with her. And that was, like, one of the that was one of the, like, sticking points, sticking points there as well. So I actually experienced the other side of it. But, you know, oddly enough, I didn't really, I mean, I did feel pressure to, like, have a bigger output, but I wasn't, yeah, I mean, it was, I'm not sure actually, what to say about that, given that I'm usually the one on the other side
Josh Lavine 47:15
of it, that's really interesting, yeah, so cool. Why don't we sort of come to a close? Then, what was this like for you?
Emily 47:29
Oh, it's interesting, you know, I I'm not sure how I feel now, having kind of gone through it, because I feel like, I feel like in a lot of ways, you know, I really answered honestly and authentically without knowing that much about the Enneagram or type eights. And there's a part of me that worries that, like, everything that I said is going to be used as a proof point for, like, why the Enneagram is really, like, wonderful, valid, worthwhile framework,
Josh Lavine 48:07
yeah, okay. Like, I'm
Emily 48:09
always like, Wow, I feel like I gave I don't know, yeah, but I mean, maybe that just goes to show that I deserve to give it a another shot, but, yeah, I would also just say, like, I think that a lot of the examples that we've talked about have shown, you know, things that are a big part of who I am. Like, you know, like, let's say the toughness, like, hard working intensity, straight talking, like, power in social situations, all these types of things. And, you know, in for me, especially having gone through the years of the therapy that I did, that's not really the way that I see myself in anymore, in a in a very forward way, I I actually really often describe myself to other people as, like, very sensitive. And I my experience of the world is in that way, yeah. And I'm more and more, I'm kind of trying to orient myself towards that, like, vulnerability, maybe to kind of counterbalance that. So, yeah, yeah. I would say that, like, you know, you, we've captured a lot of, like, maybe my kind of journey up until now that that's used to that maybe grounding. But, yeah, I mean, of course, just to say that it's never the full, the full picture, of
Josh Lavine 49:36
course, yeah, and I'm, actually, I'm so glad you that you went there. Can you talk a little like one thing that I one thing I just love about you is your is your tenderness and your soulfulness. And we've talked about this, not on a number of occasions, but this there. Well, living with you was, I mean, for me, it was just a huge gift. And it was like, just a real sense of, like it was just, how do I put it? And this is we could talk about in the context of Enneagram, but just, I'm talking about you like there was a there was a way that coming home and and being hanging out with you, you know, was this. There was a very there was a beautiful safety and kind of like we had a very cool container, like a relational container that was just like we both really brought ourselves to it in a cool way, and I felt very supported and loved in it. And it was a very powerful friendship for me. And there was so much, there was so much tenderness in it, like we really, it was a place I really felt like I could bring my whole heart. And so one thing that I think is a stereotype that's really unfair of AIDS is that there it's all crash and bang and intensity all the time. And it really isn't that there's like, there's this, there's a there's a beautiful softness and a sensitivity. I you know, depending on the depending on the age, sometimes it's behind the armor, but sometimes, like you right now for grounding it like it's really, it's really there, it's part of the whole tapestry. So anyway, I just, I appreciate you bringing that up.
Emily 51:16
Yeah? Well, yeah, thank you for saying that. I mean, yeah, yeah. I would also say, like, you know, me not, not to, like, keep this going for so long, but also just because I think that my experience of our friendship and having that container that you're speaking about was really kind of the groundwork that enabled me to come into that kind of, like, ongoing sensitivity and like, you know, tenderness that is now so core to kind of, like, the way that I exist in the world, and I even find myself like, I had a friend in town this weekend who was saying, like, she was like, oh, you know, do you find like, how do You find yourself, like, opening up to other people. And for me, like, there's such a, like, I really, it's almost like, such a deliberate, like, testing process. Like, I'll give a little bit of, like, a little bit of some kind of vulnerability, and then I'm like, looking at that person. I'm like, Are they looking at me in the eyes? Are they, like, is their body geared towards me? Like, how are they receiving the information? Are they going to protect it? Like, are the two they value my vulnerability and the way that I value my vulnerability, and I really like, it takes a long time for me to kind of develop people, but I think having really helps me step into that.
Josh Lavine 52:38
That's what's cool about the way you're describing, it's like, there's almost a like, even, even, even with sometimes the timidity you're there's a, there's a self respect in it, like, I'm not going to, I'm not going to reveal myself and be vulnerable, just with a person who's going to not value that, you know, there's like, a, you know, I'm saying there's A wisdom in that too. There's a calibration. And so,
Emily 53:03
yeah, I've seen credit to my therapist who told me that my vulnerability is valuable, and that's something that I've repeated to myself many times. But thanks for recognizing.
Josh Lavine 53:13
Yeah, that's beautiful, beautiful. Um, Emily, I love you so much. Um, thank you for doing this. Cassie, one other question. I'm really just curious, at a deeply personal level, given your stance on the Enneagram, why did you say yes to this?
Emily 53:36
Well, you're a friend, and I'm always, you know, it's data, like, I'm being honest about my answers. So from that perspective, like still feels true to me, like you're just asking me kind of questions and right? And I also recognize that it's incredibly helpful to other people just because it's like, doesn't, you know, I think it's a good thing in the world. I think that it's also, I think, a like, what's like, not like a gateway drug, but like a gateway for people to develop empathy.
So that's another reason why I think it is like overall good in the world.
Josh Lavine 54:35
Cool, careful. Here's here's gonna start pitching the engram. I'm gonna piece together clips. A few pitching the Enneagram and have it on my website.
Emily 54:54
Oh, my God, no, it's okay.
Josh Lavine 54:57
The Internet actually cut out a little bit. So you're really you're choppy during that pitch, so you're saved. I think
Emily 55:07
Chris is looking out for me. Manifestation,
Josh Lavine 55:12
all right, I'm gonna stop the recording. Thank you. If you enjoy these interviews, please subscribe and like these videos. And also, if you're listening to this as a podcast, then I would love for you to write me a review. They super, super help. Also, please check out John and my new Enneagram school. At the Enneagram school.com get on our email list. We're going to be announcing a couple of new classes soon, and we're also about to film our introductory Enneagram course. So a bunch of stuff coming up there. And one other thing is, please check out Enneagram expressions.com which is the enneagrammer Dark Arts Academy guys celebrity database, presented in a visual interact with a bowl format, very cool. And also, please check out eniagrammer.com and the Dark Arts Academy, where you can learn how to type people by watching the experts do celebrity typings in real time. You
