Sarah Simon 0:00
If I'm in conversations and I feel like the person is tuning out or, you know, they're not really following me, which is fine, like I get it, not everyone needs to follow me all the time. I really do trail off. It's kind of like my own thinking becomes less clear if I feel like you're not clear on it with me and right? And that is another attachment thing.
Josh Lavine 0:31
Welcome to another episode of what it's like to be you. I'm Josh Lavine, your host today. My guest is Sarah. Sarah lives in New York, and she is in grad school on her way to becoming a therapist, almost in her PhD program. And she's also a social self pres, 91937, trifix. In this conversation, we explored Sarah's nine, seven stem swirling cauldron esque communication style, and we also talk a lot about her positive outlook affect, and also Sarah gets really vulnerable about sharing some of her attachment stories regarding relationships and particular, something I thought was really amazing was the way that Sarah explores how she gaslights people unconsciously as a nine. And so I think this is really sort of new and fresh territory for attachment types is very embarrassing for attachment types to realize the ways that they are accidentally controlling or contributing to the dysfunction of a relationship. And Sarah, I think, was very courageous in her self revealing about this stuff. And something else very interesting happened in this conversation around the hour mark, where we got into a little bit of wonky territory. Wonky territory. Conversationally, it was wonky enough that I actually reached out to Sarah after this and invited her to have another conversation. So this is an interview in two parts. First is the interview, which we have in full here, and the second is the interview about the interview, which I will be releasing in about a week or so. So stay tuned for that where we discuss you'll, you'll, you'll know exactly what I'm talking about when you when we get there. So that's the teaser. And without further ado, I am very excited for you to learn from my friends Sarah. So I'm thinking I would love to start with your journey getting typed, yeah? Is that Yeah? Is that a good place for you to start?
Sarah Simon 2:29
Yes, for sure, yeah. So, so
Josh Lavine 2:34
actually, real quick, we'll set this up so your full, your full official typing is social self, Pres, nine, wing, 1937, trivix, yes, yeah, yes, okay, and you had quite a typing journey, as I remember,
Sarah Simon 2:50
yeah, you know. And I think it's really good to be open about this, because, you know, I've appreciated so much of what the folks that big hormone, Enneagram, and Enneagram or have said about the role or the power of of the Enneagram in you know, just self knowledge, self discovery. Also, you know, developing empathy for folks who are different than you, and understanding the patterns of humanity in general. And, you know, it's understandable that a lot of people would relate with four because we want to think of ourselves as different than other people that we see beauty. Maybe not everyone wants to think of themselves this way, but I certainly think that that's why a lot of nines relate with four, right? Where it's like, you know, I'm different than everyone. No one really understands me, but I see the flawed beauty and everything and but anyway, yeah, so starting out, you know, my journey was very much it was, you know, middle of the beginning of the pandemic, let's say early 2021, I was in Uruguay, or Uruguay or Uruguay, I had an English teaching job out there, and also a long term relationship out there, and I just felt, like, very far from my family, and like, Where was this relationship going, and What do I do in life? And I've always really enjoyed typology, but none of them have really stuck with me. You know, MBTI didn't really, or Myers, Briggs didn't really stick with me until I found objective personality. Ops, right? That that is a whole No,
Josh Lavine 4:39
you started there. Okay, yeah, you started to Okay, yeah,
Sarah Simon 4:45
totally being, you know, knowing the folks that big hormone, Enneagram and enneagrammer and the Facebook group, everything, I mean, these folks are just voracious for and and just so open to different tools of understanding. And they. Have we have like this perspective that every tool has its own power and has its own utility, and no one is necessarily better or worse than the other, but just different types resonate with us, including astrology, including modern psychology. I mean the quest of understanding yourself and where things come from and why other people do the things that they do is such a noble quest, and it's so beautiful. And I love this group for spending and your podcast and everything for spending time, but now I'm just gonna stop, like, being like, wow, everything is so amazing. But you know, I knew of, like, Myers Briggs, like, yeah, you take the test. Or I took the test in high school, like, INFJ bitches, like, yeah. Like, you know, whatever. But then, you know, again, I was in Uruguay, let's say early 2021 I was listening to a YouTuber who I followed, and she was just like, oh yeah, Enneagram, nine, whatever. And I'm like, Enneagram, what is this? I hadn't really heard of it until I'd say this was I was either late 2020 or early 2021, and so I go researching, and I fall into a hole like I really this is really resonating with me. I'm really liking how the different types Connect. It doesn't feel as boxy and as separated as Myers, Briggs, even though, you know, that was just my own conceptualization of Myers Briggs. But yeah, and so I go, the first thing I think I am is a two, right? I'm like, Oh, definitely a hard time. Like, yes, I have to be. And I knew about, you know, how the Enneagram organized itself, the the body, heart, mind, that was really interesting. Didn't quite know about the object relations, perspective on the triads yet and all of that. Um, but I was like, Oh yeah, I might be a two. And I'm, like, calling my mom, from your way, I'm like, Yeah, I'm such a people pleaser, yeah. Like, for sure, like, oh, like, yeah. And then, you know, I'm calling her and saying that as I'm, like, baking a cake for someone else, you know. And I'm like, Yeah, I must be this. And then a few days later, I'm like, but there's a line to four, like, what am I for? And this was just when I was, like, feeling more sad for whatever reason. That day, I'm like, like, no one understands me. Josh like no. And so that day, I thought I was a four, you know? And so then I just gather more tools for like to reaffirm my preferred guest that I was a four, right? And I even joined, like, this remote group up in, I mean, most of the folks were in Canada, like older, wonderful people in their 60s and 70s, just like reflecting on the Enneagram, and I was the youngest one in the group, and they affirmed me that I was a four. We also did some inner child work and stuff like that. And it was lovely. I mean, whatever. So I come to enneagrammer, yeah, and, you know, I had found it through big hormone Enneagram podcast, because I was just looking for more podcasts. I was listening to Enneagram and coffee, like the Ian crone podcast, you know, and I was just feeling, you know, I consider myself spiritual, and I'm still working that out, but I had early, you know, experiences with Christianity and Catholicism that kind of made me want to repel a little bit from their podcast, and I just wanted to see what else was out there. So I come to big hormone Enneagram podcast, right? It has like this satanic appearing logo or podcast cover. I'm still trying. I still sometimes look at that. I'm like, What the fuck is that? Me too. I want to get the origin story on that. Everyone, all the podcasts are, like, in all caps, it's like, there's just, like, sex sacks, sacks everywhere, exactly. And I'm like, What is this, right? I'm like, ooh. And so I listened to it. And you know, if anyone, anyone here who's listening to the big hormone Enneagram podcast, I mean, it's just like a group of friends talking, which is hard to get into. But then you keep listening, and you discover what each voice like, who that person is, and and then I really enjoyed, you know, listening to it. And then I found the Facebook group. And if anyone wants to go into the Enneagram or Facebook group and search my little name. Just search Sarah, or, like, not a four, whatever, and you want to see my very first cute little post that I believe, is from like, January 2021, it's like, Hey guys, Sarah here, I'm a four. Um. You know, I wanted to activate my line to one and, like, put action and energy into meeting people. So here I am, and so I log off, so cute, and so I log off Facebook, and I'm like, Okay, I did it. And then a few hours later, I log on, and I have, like, a million notifications, and I'm like, what? People are really active on this Facebook group? You know, Facebook is kind of dead and dying in some ways, right? So I didn't expect that. And, you know, a bunch of people were commenting on the post, being like, Oh, just to be clear,
Josh Lavine 10:34
there were like, over 100 comments on this post, as I remember. I mean, I don't know if you logged back in the next day, and there were that many immediately. But right now, there's probably, like, 127 or something like that, really, or something like that. I mean, it's a lot, yeah,
Sarah Simon 10:49
you know. And I want that to be something that people look at if, if they're struggling with my struggle, like, if we have the same struggle, you know, because, and
Josh Lavine 11:00
also just to be, to be really clear to like, so you announced that you were four, and then, and then you got pounced on, and yeah. And so the group basically slapped you around a little bit and said, Actually, no, you're not a four. And you argued back a little bit too, right? So that I just want to set that context, yeah,
Sarah Simon 11:20
no, for sure, you know, I probably was just like, what? Like, my favorite comment, though, I don't know who wrote this was, oh no, honey, you're a 10. Like, it was just so sweet. That was, that was sweet. But, you know, I was just confused. And I was like, okay, but to my like, I hadn't really put the energy into understanding the group's perspective on the Enneagram, which I think is like right now, like the right and the best perspective. I know they've had a lot of conversations in Enneagram worlds, like, how their group is kind of like a force that goes against a lot of the evangelical like literature on it. And, you know, I've done some look at like Russo huts, Riso Hudson and other authors in the Enneagram, but I just really appreciate their perspective on it. But anyway, you know, and regardless of whatever, like, all these numbers are made up this, this is a tool for understanding different energies and how they coalesce into human beings. But regardless, this tool and like being typed is like 937, has really helped me understand some aspects of myself that I didn't want to understand. You know, yeah, I have a question. Yeah. Sorry
Josh Lavine 12:35
to interrupt. So I noticed in your and you're speaking about this. A lot of the the positive, hopeful outlook kind of thing, 977, going on. But also remember that it was kind of annoying, it was frustrating. It was difficult to go through the experience. I mean, you actually did get slapped around a lot in that group, and it was, it was a, I mean, it was a, I mean, it was an event, right? It was like an emotional event for you to get, for sure, to get retyped as a nine, not a four. And my recollection is that you, you, you fought back a little bit or a lot of it, and then, and then you sort of disappeared for a while, and then you came back and you and you posted again that actually you're like, I'm sorry, everyone like, see it now. Yeah, that was a whole process for you. I think, yes. And so I'm curious what, what happened in the in between? Why did you decide to give it a second look?
Sarah Simon 13:42
I Yeah. I mean, that's such a great question. Yeah, to put it on a timeline for folks, you know that early post was in and then I got officially typed in January of 2021, right? That was when I had just gotten back in the States from Uruguay, like five or six months earlier, I just started grad school. I was in a relationship that would end up like being a really terrible relationship, terrible in the sense that there were really harmful dynamic between us. So that was January 2021, and then I believe I came back with that post in May 2021, apologizing and saying that I saw things differently in this and that. So that's a good, yeah. So that's a good, you know, four or five months there, sure, yeah, which is not even a lot of time in this process of working with the Enneagram. You know, I agree, right, right, right, right. I know you've talked about your own process and everyone else in the group, you know, they've worked years with the Enneagram, but yeah, so during that time, this was what it was. You know, I felt like I was being ganged up on. I felt like I was being bullied on a Facebook group. Did not want to feel like that. I fought back in ways that were just like, you know, you can't know me. How could you know me? You know, you don't even know me. You know, yes, all that, yeah, yeah, definitely some tone policing. And there are probably ways that I fought back that I wouldn't be like, proud of right now policing,
Josh Lavine 15:20
you're saying, you're calling yourself out for tone policing. Is that you're doing, yeah, yeah, just kind of like,
Sarah Simon 15:25
but at the same time, but at the same time, I think, like, whenever anyone comes on the Facebook group and they might say something similar or be you know, it is important to like, ask them questions and to not get into that online fighting thing, I think that that can be a downfall for everyone involved, and that just brings vitriol and and kind of like bad feeling. And not everyone comes back from it, like I did in my shining colors, no, but um, so during that time, you know, I was just really motivated. I don't know why. Maybe it's like my line to three, but also my three fix, I just feel really motivated to prove that I am competent in some way like that has been my entire life, you know, three being a competency type, if you want to trace it back to my entire life as a kid, you know. And we will talk about this later too, with some of the topics we have on the docket. But as a kid, you know, I was always taller. I'm quite tall for a woman, I'm like 510 I was always taller and bigger than everyone. And you know, you know, I had more fat on me and and in elementary school, I was terribly bullied, like I was bullied like shit and and, you know, then when I got 12 or 13, whatever, I had a growth spurt and I thinned down. And I remember this one woman, this adult, saying to me, it's like someone stretched you out like a rubber band. Or, you know, my, my fourth grade teacher, fifth grade teacher asking me, oh, Sarah, what are your diet tips? Like everyone knows, like the early 2000s like diet culture and still like thinness is still revered, is like the paradigm of beauty, and that's problematic in its own ways. But you know, I really wanted to hold on to that, because the world looked at me differently, very much, like in that discourse of the summer, I Turned Pretty Hold on,
Josh Lavine 17:25
specifically the what do you want to belong
Sarah Simon 17:28
to? The thinness people,
Josh Lavine 17:30
right? I see the people, yeah, the way people were seeing you now as Yeah, okay, right?
Sarah Simon 17:35
And yeah, if you fit into these boxes for beauty, people know that, and they treat you differently, you know, sure. And so what did I go on to develop? I went on to develop anorexia, for sure. I mean, in a lot of ways, that was my way of again, like organizing chaos, 911, but very much just trying to be the apple of society's eye, you know, you know, being competent in that arena. And I proved to myself I could do it by that growth spurt, right? Like I proved to myself that that could be something that I could do as a kid. You know, I remember feeling pretty sad and pretty left out, but then, you know, when I saw that that could be possible for me, I held on to it, and not to say like my Enneagram journey with with Enneagram, or is like me developing anorexia? No. I mean, that's not a perfect comparison, but a lot of my life has been okay, but I can make myself into your image. So let me try, like I can do it, like I swear, like I can do it, yeah. So there was definitely some of that coming through, of like wanting, because this group seems so cool, and everyone knew what they were about. And all the things I said before about why I admire the group, I definitely from an outside perspective, was maybe like, let me join the cool kids. Let me. Like, do that, let me. But then, you know, yeah, but then obviously, like, through, you know, your own work with it, through meeting people, through really doing the work that actually starts to become like a lot of the time, the three is thought of as having like this, like it just does its heart just is outsourced to whatever the society tells you know it should be and what it should be for. But the challenge a lot of the times, for the three, and I've heard you talk about this, Josh, is actually understanding where your values lie, you know, and what is important to you. Are we frozen? No,
Josh Lavine 19:54
we're not. This is my listening face. I'm
Sarah Simon 19:56
sorry. Okay, okay.
Josh Lavine 20:00
No, okay, so, yeah, I want to, I want to jump in here and make a couple observations. So first, it's just the the style of your speaking is so interesting to watch because it's kind of like, it's like, it's almost like I experience you as swirling around in like an inner cauldron of associations, and they, and they sort of like spill out in this, in this kind of swirling, connected way, yeah, and it's kind of like, you know, the topic that we're Exploring is your typing journey. And we've, we've gone to Uruguay, we've gone to your eating disorder, we've gone to it's just, there's, there's this really fluid, associative way that you kind of pull things together. It's this like tapestry you're weaving. And there's a lot of individual threats to pull out from that. I'm curious to, I think the eating disorder is really fascinating, and I know a lot of people go through things like that. So curious to dig into that, if you're, if you're willing, yeah, but just to, just to tie this loose end on the typing journey. So the you originally thought you were four, you got typed as a nine, and you came back around to realizing that you're a nine. And by the way, everything I just said about your speaking style is nine ish, right, especially that nine seven stem, I think,
Sarah Simon 21:52
yes, seven, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I might add to what you just said, not only just a nine, but but a sexual, blind nine. I was like, fuck you all. I was like, I was feeling, oh, like, very much, yeah,
Josh Lavine 22:07
that contributed to you feeling not seen, because, just not cool, okay, right?
Sarah Simon 22:14
Just like, not juicy, you know, just not anything, not interesting, which, which is, which is a myth that you know that podcast talks a lot about? Yeah, anyway, right.
Josh Lavine 22:24
So this is a really interesting point too, from in terms of the way that identifying with type four, like the psychological function that serves four and nine, because the idea of identifying with a type that all the books basically say, I feel I'm special is is a way of nine sort of localizing themselves or fantasizing about a more located sense of self than they unconsciously really have. It's kind of like putting an anchor in something, yes, yeah. And also, there's the sense that, I mean, I think, I think so many nines and just generally, attachment types relate to not being seen. Of there's more to me than you can see. There's I not feeling understood, and all that kind of stuff. And so when, when type descriptions of four foreground that as the thing, then it's very easy to glom onto that. Yes, so, so you have this history of an eating disorder, which is serving the psychological function for you, of helping you feel in control of your attractiveness. Yes, yeah, and and then learning that you're sexual blind on top of that, right? And there's something interesting to say there about how beauty standards are kind of more social than sexual. Actually, they're right and and especially how they're from an attachment point of view, attaching to a social attachment, nine, three stem, you've got a world of where you're being. You're absorbing beauty standards and then attempting to be competent in relation to those standards, which is actually a very different thing from the sexual instinct, which is trying to distinguish itself and put itself ahead of the sexual competition in its own unique ish way. So So just putting all that context, and let me see if there's anything else I want to pull out of what you just said.
Sarah Simon 24:40
I just want to say, from what you just said, shout out to kaisa from who was at the last live pod. She, I believe she's sexual first, and she was also on your podcast, she's amazing, yes, yeah. She just said something that was like describing the sexual instinct. And. And it was something like, and this is to contrast it from beauty as being a social construct, literally, and in this world, and also in the Enneagram world, yeah, sexual instinct is, is not about beauty in that way, but more about finding like, the attraction with every single thing and like the sexual instinct is very much about, like, accepting your own flavor, she said something like that, or appreciating your own flavor, or, you know, regardless of whatever you look like. And I really appreciated that. Yeah,
Josh Lavine 25:35
yeah, definitely. So we basically the in terms of the typing journey discovering your nine and coming to terms with nineness, maybe just if there's anything else there, before we move to the topic of fantasy,
Sarah Simon 25:50
sure,
Josh Lavine 25:50
just what? What did it, what did it expose for you? What it reveals for you? Why are you a nine, not a four? Why did you eventually come around to that and, and then we'll go from there.
Sarah Simon 26:03
That's great. Thanks for bringing it back there. Sure, even though I appear to be swirling around, it's like very all ordered in my mind, of course, but that's like the disconnect between, right? And, and I appreciate you. Yeah, that's another thing that is my own self development. But so why am I a nine an attachment type, instead of for frustration, hexad type, right? Why am I, you know, in this core attachment and so for folks who are maybe asking themselves the same question, I would really advocate or really recommend that you listen to the big hormone Enneagram podcast, specifically episodes on attachment to disconnect, and then also Josh and John's last class on object relations and developmental ways of understanding the Enneagram. But you know, for me, it was really the attachment to disconnect podcast and discourse and object relations that helps me understand why they gave me this typing and why I appeared this way, and why perhaps I am, you know, this way. And again, it was in that five month period between January and May, where I would I remember, you know, for a month or two, I avoided the podcast, and then I came back to it and tried to kind of, like, study, like, what is going on, right? Like, I want to be competent in this way. And that's when we got to the eating disorder thing, just now. But you know how they describe attachment to disconnect. Is really the attachment type, trying to figure out where it is right. So attachment types, where it is, where they are, right, uh
Josh Lavine 27:50
huh, yeah, where your relationship partner is, or where the thing you're attaching to is exactly,
Sarah Simon 27:54
yeah. And that paradigm, or that way of understanding, really just helped me realize how to use your terms, like spongy, how absorbent I was, how much I would absorb things and people's energies and the way things are, but not necessarily know why, yet also attaching to it, but But then in that not knowing why, or maybe confusion, or maybe even resentment that I attach so willingly and quickly and not even willingly, yeah, just like by accident, um, then in that kind of resentment or confusion, you kind of start to stir up drama, maybe, or you like, ask questions. Or you you try to create conflicts, or tone police for in the case of a nine maybe, or or you just tried to throw things out there. You try to disconnect in order to understand or check if it was okay to connect in the first place. John, has said this multiple times on the podcast. Attachment types, they have yes up front, but then no later, right and right. And hexa types have no upfront, but then yes later, possibly Right,
Josh Lavine 29:15
yeah. And I want to just quick comment on the tone policing thing, because it's come up a couple times. It's, it's a really good, I really like the term, especially social nine. It's kind of like, what you're doing is like, Hey, I'm trying to attach to you, and you are now serving the psychological function for me of giving me comfortable, reliable holding but when you say things that are irksome or annoying or are not see me, whatever, then tone policing comes in. It's like I'm kind of like a little bit. Passively, like correcting you, you know, so that you can give me the right holding again. And that's nine, one, maybe especially,
Sarah Simon 30:09
100% Yeah, and even, yeah, even, even, just to concretize that in an example I mentioned already, you know, during again, that five month period of, you know, January, yeah, it was, you know, I mentioned that I was in, you know, a relationship that had a lot of harmful dynamics. And it was very much that it was me attaching to this person. I'm pretty sure this person was a hexad type, I would guess a Kyle. Kyle a core eight. So that would be 363, yeah, yeah, something like that. And I was very much attaching to him, and we shared kind of like this. We're very attracted to each other. Maybe there was like awakening of sexual and just like, you know, melding and all of the things that come with sexual, but he fundamentally repulsed me in a lot of ways. We did not share the same beliefs or values about life, about politics, about anything. He thought my friends were dumb. He thought what I did with my life was stupid. He would insult me all the time. And, you know, and maybe we were just not for each other, right? But in a relationship, you know, with someone that you choose to be your partner, you know, there are some things that you have to that you can, you know, negotiate and maneuver, but if you fundamentally do not share the same values, like that is going to be a problem that haunts your relationship forever. Um, and, and, you know, that relationship was very much me, attaching to him because of the attraction and because he was a no before a yes and I was a yes before No, right? Me wanting to it was like, Yeah, I pinged everything against it, like I organized my life against him so quickly that relationship was very quick, right?
Josh Lavine 32:18
That's a, that's an excellent phrase there, yeah, that you organize your life around him, yeah, yes,
Sarah Simon 32:22
but it was the most volatile, hopefully, of my life, the most volatile relationship, and I became, like, the uglier side of my nine and he probably became the uglier side of himself, even though, of course, Everyone has redeeming qualities, just because it was like there was this bond that we had, but ultimately that bond was not compatible, and we would find, we knew that on some level, but it was just like the surface attachment to disconnect that I was always trying to do, and then His rejection, his you know, and me, it was just, yeah, we don't have to get into it. But that very, very much showed for me, kind of like that attachment to disconnect, of just wanting to find issues, of of just wanting, why did I want to give myself so completely to this person early on, but then resent him for it, and not even know why it was happening. Why? Where am I like? What am I like? What is important to me? And so that was a really stressful time. And maybe you know, through that and listening to attachment, to disconnect, the object relations. Maybe that's why I ultimately came back to the Facebook page in May, and that relationship ended in June, just feeling open to a part of me that I didn't really want to see. Yeah.
Josh Lavine 33:57
Wow, yeah. So that is a really, really vivid example of attachment, right there just your entire relationship pattern there. And it sounds like, you know, in the last few months of your relationship before it officially ended in June, that five month period was it sounds to me like shifts in tectonic shifts in your inner world where certain patterns were causing you to sort of fall apart internally, or certain cracks were happening that were introducing questions about, what am I doing, how and and the really, what's the right way To put this as a triple attachment type myself, I experienced a lot of grief and embarrassment about how much I've outsourced to other people and how much I I didn't. I haven't, I didn't take in various relationships responsibility for my partner and how much I just wanted the other person to show up differently for me without. 100% really saying anything or without, or just consistently adapting myself and always feeling like I could do something more, as opposed to just all that organizing my life around other people absolutely right? And so coming to terms of that, it's like, wait all this resentment and anger I felt towards you, I actually now have to take some ownership over, yes, very difficult thing for attachment types. And so I'm wondering, like in terms of all the cracks that formed in your inner world, the new Enneagram insights around just attachment to disconnect started falling through and had a place to land in you,
Sarah Simon 35:34
100% 100% and you know, I think that really does dovetail with what I meant when I said it made me realize how much of a fantasizer I was, okay, yeah, and, and maybe even more with that, like seven wing, because I projected so much of what I wanted to happen with relationships before I even realized, like, on some level, if we liked each other, you know, if there was something more than just attraction, or maybe social status, some combination of that. And you know, in being this person who, you know, wanted to call themselves an empath. Wanted to, you know, talk about how sensitive they were and how much they could understand people and make space for people and this and that, which, on some level, yeah, I think that's a really cool quality that I have. But I think I became so sure in that with other people that I didn't question it in myself and in my own relationships. And you know, one of the so being a body type, the body Center, one of the core emotions that has been identified in that center is anger, right? And anger, not in a way. I think a lot of the times, we're taught to believe that anger is something bad and shouldn't be seen and something that will just be destructive and but no one of my favorite conceptions of anger, I forgot who said this, but it's a quote that's something like, what is anger but a reminder of your own sacredness. Hi,
Josh Lavine 37:21
doggy, sorry, yeah. Moose agrees, yeah, no, she's
Sarah Simon 37:23
angry. Moose agrees. What is anger? What a reminder this moose, and in that way, it helps me, and I'm sure others think of anger as doesn't have to be an outburst like that happens after years of passive aggression. It is asserting your own boundaries. It is being able to say, you know, I want to be open to you. I want to see if this works for me, and I want to be there for you, but fundamentally, I cannot do this because it goes against something in me that is a hard No, that is a wall. And being able to negotiate with that and find anger, not as, again, an outburst, but as a no, as as a wall, as I'm not willing to go there, this is not good. And so a lot of that nine and and this journey has been kind of connecting with that, but also understanding that you know the qualities that you know we were just talking about in nine, seven or in attachment types, they can lead to their pitfalls, and they have their shadow, which, which, which, what, which is what we were just talking about. But there are also they exist because there are also so many beautiful and wonderful things about them that help make the world and what in what it is fantasy is incredible. Sevens have ideas and powers to go to the abstract and look forward to the future in ways that are just incredible. And so a lot of what this is, I think the Enneagram shows is Shadow Work, right, incorporating your shadow and and so that they're not so starkly contrasted from your light, but that they're combined.
Josh Lavine 39:14
One of the other things I find so charming about you is that your your your positive outlook is is just so like, here it's just so foregrounded. It's just like, here it is. And it's like you even in the midst of a conversation that is exploring what I imagine was a very painful experience with your ex and the embarrassment and the rage and the resentment. That's how that that a company is waking up to your own attachment games this, this rosy view comes out. And I'm curious, if you have words for that, like, where, where does that come from? Why? Yeah, and why is it important? Why is there a way that Well, the question I wanted to ask was, why is it important to you to go there? Or, like, What? What? What makes it naturally as you're talking the words spill out in this positive way,
Sarah Simon 40:04
right? That's a great question. I think there are two major points there. One of them is what the instinctual stacking, like social self pres, what that whole discourse has given me in terms of thinking of why that happens, just really prioritizing, like, the social like, the the general vibe, like, I the vibe needs to be okay. Like, people can't worry about me, like, I have to be okay. Um, and I think a lot of that, too, is the nineness, right, picking up, absorbing everything, all the energies around it, and so it would be overwhelming if, if I just felt like people were walking on eggshells around me all the time, or feeling like they need to take care of me or or check up on me, or I wasn't Okay. But actually, you know, going back to that relationship that happened between that five month period to one of the Wake Up Calls after that, which kind of goes into, why do you feel I need to be so positive all the time? Sarah, one of my dearest friends who's become one of my best friends in the past couple of years, I told him after the breakup, right about all the shit that had gone down in that relationship, and the you know, he was just like, Oh my God, why didn't you tell me in the moment that this was going on, like this is, why didn't you just let me know as your friend that he was doing this to you, that you were doing this to each other. He said to me, he said to me, Sarah, you often. He's so real. I love you. Patrick. Patrick, this is, this is for you. He said, I'm gonna send him this. He's gonna be like, don't send me your Woo, woo, bullshit. He makes fun of me in the Enneagram all the time. But he said to me, he's like, Sarah, why do you feel a need to before you deliver some like tough news to someone in your life? Why do you feel a need to tie a bow on it and present it like a TED talk? He, you know, and he really challenged me in being vulnerable, actually being like, because that's like, a kind of performative vulnerability, where you're like, I went through hard things, but it's okay. I have control over it now, right, right there, yeah, right. Instead of just being like, yeah, Patrick, like, yeah, friends, like, I don't know what to do. Can What do you think? Do you think this is something that I should continue, like, really being in that spot. And he helped me realize, and again, the Enneagram that I wasn't I was performing, you know, empathy and on a lot of levels, not on every level, but on some levels. I was performing vulnerability on some levels, and I needed to to be okay with feeling like, you know, I didn't have to take care of myself with everything. I didn't have to clean up everything, and that not everything had to be positive. But I think in general too, like, I will always be somewhat of an optimist, in the sense where I'm like, This is life. Like things have to work like we have to keep going. We just, I mean, the sun will rise and the sun will set like, you just have to keep going. You have to keep going. And a lot of my activism work, and kind of like understanding my own work with understanding why the world is the way that it is, and politics and history and everything, it's just like, Yeah, this. A lot of this shit is really heavy and terrible, but you have to commit yourself to opening up and waking up and and and working with it and trying to do the best that you can. Because in my mind, it's like, that would be a slight to everyone else who kept going if I didn't keep going. And I guess that's that super ego, the nine wing one. Yeah,
Josh Lavine 44:09
I just picked up social stuff. Was really interesting. There's a lot going on there. There's the super ego thing that you just said. There's, yeah, there's the, I was really struck by this, the it's like a responsibility you feel not to have your inner mess be a burden for other people. So it's almost like there's a sense of you're aware of the psychological impact you'll have by sharing the bleeding wound that is like that you're currently like, working with and so there's a way that it's, like, if you've got something like, you sustained, metaphorically, some kind of stab wound, and you're bleeding, and you're, like, trying to patch it up, and you you share a little bit that, like, yeah, you know, I'm a little bit in pain. But also. Like you are able to direct your conversational partners attention away from the wound Yes, and into a vision of something more hopeful. And yeah, yeah. So I imagine there's a lot of both with both with the responsibility not to have a negative impact on other people, and also the super ego thing that you just said, of it would be a slight to others who have gone on anyway to sort of sit in your own mess or something like that, or be right, but just amazing about your wounds. Yeah,
Sarah Simon 45:38
go ahead, yeah, but just to muddle it up a little bit for you, so I don't appear to be this completely like, yeah, I don't. No one should worry about me. I can be terrible to people who I feel like will not leave me, or who are close to me, you know, and, and this is something and not terrible in the sense, like, I haven't done super terrible things, but, but, but super ego, Jesus Christ, why is the super ego on me all the time? But you know, all the stuff that I didn't wasn't vulnerable and open with with other people who were not like my closest inner circle, like my mom or my partner, right? Sure, I would say that all for them, and point out all the issues that I had with myself, with them. You know what I mean? And and I think a lot of that too, is the way in which we're taught to prioritize relationships as family, and your romantic partner being number one, you're supposed to prioritize everything, and your romantic partner is supposed to be everything for you. It's supposed to hold you. They're supposed to hold you in the right way. They're supposed to see you in the right way. They're supposed to think with you in the right way. And while it's important that, you know there's like this person is important for you, and it's important that you share, again, a lot of values, and that you care about each other, that you work on the relationship, I mean, depending on what type of relationship you want to have. But also sometimes all of that social dynamic, if you spend it too much on them, you don't save any with your friends, and you end up having very superficial friendships, right, where it's just like, maybe you go out a couple times a month and you just, like, talk about things, maybe you joke, but you're not actually holding, taking part in that, holding of each other, or seeing of each other, or calling out, you know, the other person, if you think they're doing something wrong, or they need to to do something else. And so I think it's not, it's not like I was always like, Oh, no one needs to worry about me, but I would hoard that for the people who I felt were closest and should, like, be holding me. And should, but, but I needed to develop some of that in myself too.
Josh Lavine 48:03
David Gray has this awesome phrase about nines. He's like, nines are basically going through the world trying to pad all the sharp edges of the world for themselves and other people put cushions on things. And you know, it's interesting. It sounds like what you're saying is you, you do that. You cushion stuff for the relationships that are, I guess I'll just what I'm actually it's like you do that for the relationships that aren't as close for you, but the ones that are really meaningful. And where you've crossed some threshold of intimacy or closeness, or something like that, then you're willing to take the pads off sometimes, but then, because of the imbalance, there's like the pads come off too much, or there's a way that when you take the pads off in an intimate relationship, or a very close relationship, like the one through Mom, it's, it's another bid for having them hold you in the right kind of way, because they should be doing it right. Yeah.
Sarah Simon 49:15
I mean, it's classic, like, what does that whole thing like? Like the Freudian concept of not sublimation, but deflection, right? Like the the whatever, like, let's go back to the 1950s the husband, who works on Madison Avenue in advertising, comes home from work, and he had a rough day at work, and so he's kick he's taking it out on his dog, and he kicks the dog, right? Very much of that variety, and a lot of that has taught me, too, like I would always be like as I got as I became older and transitioned into teenage, adolescence, I guess, and then young adulthood, I kept. Asking myself, why are my friendships becoming more and more superficial? And it's because I was kind of hoarding, letting the pads, you know, be a little bit sharper with my family and with that, that intimate relationship, but not with my friends, not like being an active member of my friendship and really just having them to go out with, or, you know, to, you know, get a benzo box with once a month or something like that, and just get an update on their lives without, without, actually, you know, being like again, like open with them, being open to hearing what they thought about situations that wasn't completely advice or reflections that weren't completely positive. Like, You go girl, like, Girl, boss, like any of that. And also being able to ask them tough questions, like, do you think this relationship is good for you? I know that you've had this in the past. You know? I'm not just going to be like, Yeah, you know, you go girl like whatever brand. So a lot of it is, I think maybe that nine journey of connecting with anger is not only connecting with anger, but spreading out that anger to not just your important relationships, or to not just certain relationships where you go home and kick the dog, but with every relationship
Josh Lavine 51:24
that this is tracking to me in a deep way, there's, I mean, social, first, nine, three, which are two very adaptive types. It's almost like, and I relate to this. It's almost like there is some film or membrane that someone has to poke their way through with you before they enter like, real relationship and and beyond the membrane, or like, closer to, like, on your side of the membrane, then the the full, raw, messy, whatever is here, right on the other side of the membrane is a pretty clean image of, like, just general positivity and kind of, like the the vision of, like, yeah, things are great. You're a girl boss, like, go, you know, go, go, girl, go, that kind of stuff, sure. And, yeah, I'm thinking about, there's something important about this, other than everything. But in an Enneagram sense, there's a, there's a concept that is called the security points, and it's like the idea that you're the way it's traditionally taught. For example, if you're a nine in in relationships in which you feel really secure, then you will access more of your type three. I think it's actually much more complicated than that. There's a certain way that beyond a certain threshold of closeness, where you feel that the threat of the person leaving, if they see through you or see your mess, is significantly lower than with or beyond is like is low. Then other parts of you start coming out, yes, and that's that's a natural that just makes sense to me, right? Like you're not going to just be your radically raw, like whatever wounded self or something with just strangers or people that you've had, like a coffee with. And so the closer you get to people, there's a certain unfolding or blossoming of the self, right, that comes out unveil, unveiling of the self, right? Yeah. So, so what I'm wondering now is that the thing that would be at the very center of that blossoming is what it seems to me, for you, is your no or your like, this isn't working for me. And the reason that a relationship doesn't work for so long and you keep trying to make it work is because it takes, it's almost like you don't feel fully safe, to to to expose your own no or and because it's so hidden in the blossoms that are closed, it's like you're not even aware. You're numb to your own no or something like that. Yeah,
Sarah Simon 54:31
yeah, that's funny. I'm like, picturing a flower blossoming, and it's like, in the middle, just no. That's such a funny I feel
Josh Lavine 54:42
like I've absorbed your 973, energy. I'm talking in all kinds of Yeah, visual metaphors and stuff like, Yeah,
Sarah Simon 54:48
beautiful. Oh, I love that. If we could all just talk in poetry, that would be great. But yeah, no, I think I think it's that. I think it's not being in contact with the No. No. But also that is not just like not being in contact with the No, it's not being in contact with why I would say no in myself, based on my own, like, what is important to me, right? But also, I think maybe in terms of relationships, I've thought a lot about my seven wing here, right where it's like, it's not even just not being in touch with the No, or why the No, but also just being like, Oh, this would look so good. This would i i love how our life looks together. I love how this looks like,
Josh Lavine 55:41
you know, that's the fantasy, right there, right? It's like, yeah. And that does sound like, especially seven to me. I agree that seven fix,
Sarah Simon 55:49
yeah, yeah, yeah. And, you know, some of that is, I love how this looks, in terms of, maybe because of the social position that they have, or the job that they have, or the way that they look, you know. Or maybe I even fantasize about ways in which our life could be like this together, or what we'll do together. But that is sometimes it happens so much in my mind, Josh, that I don't even realize what I've thought or what we've actually talked about,
Josh Lavine 56:23
wow, and
Sarah Simon 56:24
that is something that I've been trying to reel in many different ways. But it's that kind of sadness where it's like, you didn't fulfill my vision. I had a whole vision of how this could go, and it's just not going like that, you know. And so I think a lot of that, too, is is connecting with the here and now, how things are actually going, instead of looking forward at the future. Because, if not, you know, you're just going to build a house of cards in a lot of ways, and that's really painful for me to connect to, because I don't think of myself as a superficial person. Josh, I don't you know, but it's been a lot of that. Yeah,
Josh Lavine 57:17
I'm thinking about your use of the word gas lighting and how it probably relates to what you just said, where there's a there's a certain and I actually want, I want to hear your words about it, but my prompt is it sounds like there is this Seven fix thing going on, where you're envisioning a promising vision of a reality, yeah, with a person or just like the seventh thing, of like, seeing possibilities and being like, Oh, that would be so cool. But yeah, because you're core nine, sort of the fantasy stays at the level of fantasy and doesn't get actualized or even necessarily articulated. Or there's a way that you're sort of maybe waiting or hoping for the environment to fulfill it for
Sarah Simon 58:14
you. Yeah. And yeah,
Josh Lavine 58:19
yeah. And can you connect that.to how you were using the word gaslighting before, and what you mean by that.
Sarah Simon 58:24
Yeah, I really like how you're drawing that line. Kind of like using the Enneagram as a map. Um, if we go with that, maybe the seven idealizing, wanting this and this of the world, the glisten of very much, this earring, right? The sparkle, sparkle. And then the nine, you know, kind of absorbing that feeling that being buoyed by it, right, and then maybe mentioning it, but mostly waiting, mostly seeing, mostly waiting done a lot of waiting in relationships, which is something that I'm actively with my cute, 27 years old. I'm trying to be more deliberate about not doing, um, not in terms of like not being patient in relationships, but just like communicating better and being more discerning for myself. Um, even though I love to think of myself as such a great communicator, right? You know, loving words, loving language. But you know, this is the painful part of the Enneagram, because it really complicates a lot of the adjectives that you want to give yourself or that people have given you in the past, kind of like your self concept. And it really gets to the nitty gritty of what is actually going on. So that seven to nine again, the sparkle, the nine absorbing it, and then maybe going to the three from there, where it's like, if I just do all the right things, if I just look. Book, the part, or if I just get the job, or if I just act the way that maybe you want me to act, then maybe I won't actually have to tell you explicitly, or maybe I won't have to do anything explicitly, or put that no or put that boundary, or say this thing, and it'll just manifest, and it'll just come into being, right? But then when it doesn't, it's, it's, it's, you know, that anger comes out. And maybe that's what I meant by gaslighting. I think that term, as we said, gets thrown around so much without real definition, but gaslighting is what it's, it's, really making someone believe, like question the reality. You know, if you go back to where the term comes from, it's from a movie called gas light where, like this husband is, like, turning down, I think, the gas on the lights and making it dimmer. And then the wife asked, Why is it dimmer? Like was, Why did you turn it down? And him being like, well, it was always this way. It was always turned down. I don't know what you mean. This reality has always been this way. And so I think in there it's like, but in my mind, it's always been this way, how I thought you were, what I thought we were here together. And of course, it's not just, you know, any individuals fault, every relationship is takes two to 10 go. It's, it's, it's, it's a whole thing. But I think that was definitely my end of it. And it's kind of like a little girl. I mean, this is so painful, Josh, it's kind of like a little girl just being like, maybe, maybe, maybe. And then if I just like, do all the right things, maybe, maybe, maybe, um, without actually coming into your own energy of this, the only word that's coming to me is, is saying no. And maybe that doesn't even look like saying no, you know, saying no can look like a lot of things. It can look like just being more honest. It can look like, you know, realizing that, you know, based on your experience, this relationship probably won't go in a way that will be good for both of you. It's not having that scarcity mindset where it's like, well, let me just hang on to this and I'll make it work. And this and that, even though they said this to me, even though they did this, I can just gloss over it, it's fine, it'll be okay. And just being like, Wow, if I really come at myself and other people in the world, you know, and this is such a buzzword right now, but, but from a place of abundance, where it's like, there will be enough, you will be able, if you're here and present and honest with yourself and other people, and with vulnerability and with your growth and with your love and with your care, and you don't try to hide things. I've done a lot of hiding and lying. Josh that I didn't even know where it came from. Sarah, then things will be okay, yeah.
Josh Lavine 1:03:27
How are you feeling right now? Talking about this,
Sarah Simon 1:03:31
I feel I've been feeling our conversation is kind of like a piece of music, like the rhythm and the harmonies and kind of like the crescendo and the decrescendo, like I've been feeling it very much in that way, and really interested in the energy of it. How am I feeling? I'm feeling, I don't know. I don't, I don't have, like, a big word. There's an ambulance outside. You want
Josh Lavine 1:04:12
to just Yeah, take a breath and yeah, see how you feel. Yeah. I
Sarah Simon 1:04:29
Yeah, yeah, I feel like it's it would be good to slow down a little bit. Yeah, yeah. It'll
Josh Lavine 1:04:37
be interesting to watch the the the tape back of the last few minutes, because my sense is, is that? Is it true that this is really, is it true that this is vulnerable territory for you to talk about this kind of stuff at this length? I.
Sarah Simon 1:05:00
Mean, yeah, there's a lot in here that stays in in here because
I don't really, I don't really trust that everyone will be able to hold it or everyone will, and not everyone should even hold it like that's one of the things that I like about this community of at least we have these terms that we can agree on, where it's easier to come to concepts. Yeah, let me
Josh Lavine 1:05:39
say it differently, something that you said in our last conversation really stood out to me. It was that you automatically assume that other people aren't listening to
Unknown Speaker 1:05:49
Yeah,
Josh Lavine 1:05:54
and this is so this is a dart of the board. You tell me if I'm right, but yeah, just not, not at all during our entire conversation, but a couple of points in our conversation, I wondered if you were feeling that way, or if you were moving into mental territory that was like, sort of saying the thing, yeah, but maybe not really like trusting that there's this conversational space is going to be able to hold it or something like that.
Sarah Simon 1:06:25
So one of the reasons I wanted to have why I was open to this kind of interview was because,
well, are you still hearing me? Is things I just, okay, okay, okay, one of the things, I mean, I feel like I trust you, just, just based on, I mean, we you and I have only met once, but, but just by being in this community and seeing the other, you know, interviews that you've done. I mean, I reached out to you because I was like, I really appreciate the ways in which, I guess, for lack of better word, or maybe this is the best word, you hold and you guide, and you direct, and this is your podcast, and you you know how to do things. And so I never really felt during this conversation that you weren't listening to me
or that I wasn't being held in the way that I wanted to, because I have that background knowledge of you. But I think in everyday interactions, what often happens, and which is a real point of frustration for me, is that I can sense, and I didn't know where this was coming from until kind of recently,
if I'm in conversations and I feel like the person is tuning out, or, you know, they're not really following me, which is fine, like, I get it, not everyone needs to follow me all the time. I really do trail off. It's kind of like my own thinking becomes less clear, right? If I feel like you're not clear on it with me, right and right? And that is another attachment thing. There you go, yeah, right. That is another mirroring thing, where it's the less you seem to believe, even if you're actually listening to me. But some people don't really give the non verbal like, Uh huh, the less you seem to be listening to me. The more like the less clearly I think, the less clearly I believe myself, right, yeah. And so kind of, my antidote to that so far has been giving a shit and knowing exactly what I'm talking about, which means research, which means knowing what you're talking about, which means taking the time to actually believe in things and understand where you stand in them. And that helps me practice in any conversation whether or not this person whether or not I feel like this person is listening to me, that I can be clear in my thinking,
Josh Lavine 1:09:31
my experience of you right now versus like 10 minutes ago is that I experienced your presence a lot more saturated here, like I experienced you as connected to yourself? Yeah, yeah. The reason I stopped and asked how you're feeling is because I guess I was feeling that I wasn't sure if you were feeling connected to yourself. And around the gaslighting conversation, there were some pretty poor. Powerful things that you're saying about. It's like a little girl sort of hoping and wishing for a certain reality and then basically attaching to that, and then, and then the gaslighting things. Just so I really understand it. I mean, I think what you're saying is that you've, you've held on to that reality, or to that, to the fantasy as your own kind of inner reality, without actually checking in with reality, but then asserting the fantasy onto others as like, Wait, I thought this was what we were doing the whole time. Yeah,
Sarah Simon 1:10:36
yeah, yeah. It's, it's, it's like that. It's something like that, for sure,
Josh Lavine 1:10:47
what's happening for you right now,
Sarah Simon 1:10:51
I what I'm thinking of this is exactly why one of the things that I admired so much for your podcast of you asking like these questions that are like piercing but I didn't, of course, anticipate them to happen to me in the way that they're happening right now. Sure, my fear in this moment is that I have come off as like inauthentic.
And one thing that I've been thinking of and is how much that leads to a lot of what we were talking about, the resentment, the anger, the embarrassment, the shame in attachment types, but also how that might lead other people to view attachment types as Fake or again inauthentic, but how it's really not it just feels like you're trying to facilitate the human interaction. It just feels like you're just trying to be a social being. And that's painful, right? Because I I have an image in my head of someone who is an attachment type, who you can't really track where they are. There's like, like this, this, this like shine of like, this empty smile. Um, these vacant eyes, this, like, you know, hollow heart. And I think I want to see both the beauty and being able to be flexible, like an attachment type, and to reflect and to be all the social things that an attachment type can be. Yeah, I want to admire that, and not see that as in authenticity, but also realize how it can become inauthentic, and that can lead to a lot of pain, and that can bring a lot of sadness, and so and so the inner work, you know, in all the terms we were talking about with the Enneagram, how it allows you to see your patterns. But maybe, maybe it will help prevent you from completely entering into the shadow of him, from completely, you know, becoming the worst possible versions, or, you know, not as good as you can be, not as whole and not as not as full of a human being as you can be, which also allows you to have fuller relationships, have a fuller existence, probably a much better existence, and a much healthier and kind touch on this earth.
Josh Lavine 1:14:24
Yeah, I want to respond real quick to the authenticity point you're bringing up, because so I love what you're saying that it just, it just feels like, sort of always, that you're just trying to facilitate a human interaction. And, you know, the word authenticity is, it's a pretty charged word in a lot of ways, and there's a potentially a kind of evaluation or judgment. In it around, you know, am I being authentic? Am I not being authentic? All that kind of stuff? And there's sort of a time and place for it, but maybe my, what I'm pointing to, or what I noticed in you, is that there are, and this is, this is too stark of a polarity to paint, but I'll just give you the polls so you have a sense like there are moments where you have the the positive outlook and the and the sort of soothing, harmonious nine thing from a place that is really here, and like a genuine like I can feel your presence here, and like your psychological location is like down in your chest or gut or something like that, and it still has this flavor of your tri fix. And there are other times when I experienced the psychological location sort of float up and then sort of out of your head and into, like this land up here. Yeah, maybe it would be fantasy land or whatever, like whatever land it would be, but it's sort of, it's as if the center of gravity shifts upward, right and and there's a way that what you are saying, even if the words are the same, have much more power when you're like, here, like, I can feel the impact of them here, you know what I'm saying, whereas They sort of the power kind of gets dispersed. Yes, from the other point of view, yeah,
Sarah Simon 1:16:46
yeah. I think that very much that you're talking about the dispersion is the nine seven,
Josh Lavine 1:16:52
right? Oh, yeah, absolutely.
Sarah Simon 1:16:56
And I kind of resent that sometimes, but I understand because, because a lot of the time when I'm up there, I'm like, really excited. I'm like, I have a whole story to tell you, this and that, this association, blah, blah, you know, a whole thing. But I, you know, have come back down to understand why it's not even why not everyone wants to go there in every single moment of time that I want to go there, but also how sometimes it can make people wary of where I'm actually coming from. Yeah, yeah.
Josh Lavine 1:17:35
So the or the thing about automatically assuming others aren't listening to you is just so, I mean, that's just so profound to me, that statement and and it strikes me that you tell me, if I'm right, it's almost like the way that you stay in the conversation or in interaction with someone, even though you're assuming that is by dispersing and going into this upward space, as opposed to really occupying and inhabiting
Sarah Simon 1:18:08
yourself. I really like how you put that. Yes, it okay. So you know the word taper like it tapers off, yeah, yeah, totally, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yes. I
Josh Lavine 1:18:21
like your sound effect,
Sarah Simon 1:18:23
yeah, but it's going up, yeah, yes, yeah, right, yeah, yeah, like a backwards zipper kind of Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Josh Lavine 1:18:32
Are you able to track in in any sort of real time where you are in that
Sarah Simon 1:18:43
no, just kidding, yeah, so what? What generally happens, I think when I feel like I'm not again being held, this happened the other day, and it was to no fault of anyone, right? Hmm? Uh, it's just increasing frustration. It's just, um, this thing that I want to talk about. I was actually in this conversation trying to talk about the Enneagram with someone who has no background knowledge in the Enneagram, sure, yes. So I try to define the terms. Yes, if anyone has, like, a really snappy way to just like, talk about it, that'd be
Josh Lavine 1:19:27
good. And the first, the further down the rabbit hole I go, the harder it is for me.
Sarah Simon 1:19:34
I know, yeah, so maybe on some level, you feel this too, and that's why I feel like you're listening to me in that there. There were some times, though, where there was a little I felt a ping of anger Josh, where he was oh, where you wanted to redirect me. I was like, No. Inside I was like, No, but I understood why you were doing it. And ultimately me in
Josh Lavine 1:19:58
this conversation, yeah. Yes, that makes total sense to me. No, I love you. Just said that. That's great, yeah, but, but right, your anger is welcome here, by the way.
Sarah Simon 1:20:09
But it wasn't quite anger. It was just like, oh, okay, I don't know, but ultimately, I saw a reason for it, but, and I followed you, and I wanted to, but I think I ultimately brought it back to where I wanted to go in kind of like this sweet, creamy, nine way,
Josh Lavine 1:20:28
yeah,
Sarah Simon 1:20:30
yeah, there it is. Like, let me just go around your little maze, honey. Uh huh, okay, no, just kidding. But uh what was I saying? What were we talking about? You were
Josh Lavine 1:20:40
talking about being in a conversation with your friend about the anagram, Oh, and before that, there was the tapering thing. Yeah, thank
Sarah Simon 1:20:46
you. Thank you. I appreciate that. Yeah. So I was just trying to define my terms, and then maybe for just some reason I would, I just assumed that this person would think I was crazy because I believed in this, or that I even spent time on this. And so I was just like, Yeah, I just became more general in my words, right? So I was like, okay, so you have all these nine types, and then the object relations, and then, but really, it's just for understanding humans going up, but, but really, humanity has patterns, but really, I don't know it's just, it's just one thing. It's just one tool. I don't know. It's just one thing that
Josh Lavine 1:21:23
is so excellent as a demonstration. Yeah, that makes total sense. Yeah,
Sarah Simon 1:21:28
exactly, exactly you find yourself doing something kind of similar.
Josh Lavine 1:21:36
Let's see. Yeah, actually, I do. I'm seeing how that lives in me. It's
this is a problem, actually, that I would love to start working on a solution for. But it's because I'm so deep in the Enneagram, and because it is it so much of my worldview is flavored by the Enneagram. And there's all this terminology now, and there's a way that, as a social attachment type, I It's like, I, it's like, I want someone to be on my same page. But I'm afraid of asking them to do the heavy lifting of like getting in with the terminal, just getting and so I try to sort of meet them where they're at, build a bridge from my inner world to their inner world. But the bridge is like 90% me going to them, and 10% them coming to me, and but in the process of doing that, I feel a little bit like I feel annoyed or frustrated, or like I'm becoming less potent myself because I'm leaving my home territory or something. And all kinds of dynamics can result from that. Yeah, it's a, really, it's a juicy little spot right there,
Sarah Simon 1:23:03
right? And even more, you know, you've talked about this in your developmental class with the four wing. Maybe there's even some discuss that you are, you know, defending yourself so much. It's not
Josh Lavine 1:23:17
the No, that's right, yes, you got it.
Sarah Simon 1:23:22
Yep, yeah.
Josh Lavine 1:23:29
So where are we?
Sarah Simon 1:23:33
Where are we? Do you know what's happening to me right now? Josh,
Josh Lavine 1:23:40
no, what's happening to you right now.
Sarah Simon 1:23:41
I'm feeling pain that this is, like, ending. I don't know why. I think,
Josh Lavine 1:23:48
oh yes, yeah. I
Sarah Simon 1:23:50
think there's a lot of melding that I do and, like fusing with things that I do, and when it has to end, it's a little painful. Yeah. Feels Yeah, because it just feels like I melded with it a lot. I don't know, yeah,
Josh Lavine 1:24:10
I love this point. I love this point. It's so yeah, that's social. That's like social nine finding its local groove in this, in this interaction, and then having to rediscover where you end and where I begin, or where you end and the conversation is, or something like that.
Sarah Simon 1:24:33
Yeah, yeah, something, something. And it happens with most things that I feel like, like with movies or with just really good conversations, like this one, I don't meld with every conversation, right? But yeah, yeah, yeah, any place that you feel like you meld with, you know, it's just, it's a little bit on. But okay, yeah, I
Josh Lavine 1:24:58
relate, actually well as a kind. Ripple attachment. I when I was a kid in high school, I used to, I used to stay way, way late at school, because I would have, I'd be having conversations with people. I'd go and hang out with my physics teacher. I played basketball, nice. I was there's like it was a certain, it was a certain kind of sadness associated with leaving, yeah, and any kind of change is like that for me, and I imagine it's a similar thing that you're pointing to, yeah, yeah, it's like a little mini grief.
Sarah Simon 1:25:33
Yeah, no, for sure.
Josh Lavine 1:25:38
Well, on that note, this has been really lovely. Thank you for doing this and my pleasure. I really appreciate you being willing to take my little redirects and stuff, and I appreciate that some of them triggered a little mini moment of anger for you. And that's totally I'm totally here for that. And yeah, I'm curious if you have any other final reflections before we close.
Sarah Simon 1:26:06
Yeah, my only reflection is that at least in the contents of this conversation, just because there were different moments of connectedness doesn't mean that any moment was any less real, especially for an attachment type. I think that I've talked a lot about not only what I think, but how I think, yes, I think that your questions at helping me get there were really great in helping me get there. And I hope that you know anyone who's curious in where their thoughts come from, not just the seed of their thought, but like, well, that metaphor is failing me anyway. Something like that. Yeah, cool.
Josh Lavine 1:27:07
Well, really, truly, I think of these interviews as a as a kind of act of courage, and you're being willing to expose yourself and be at the mercy of my questioning. Is really, I really appreciate it. So thank you. You okay, you