Sarah Simon 0:00
And I think the fear or maybe anger I held against you in those moments when I could sense you breathing into the microphone, getting ready to say something, and I'm like, Ah, right, that's just like me trying to just be like, Oh, it's all good, babe. Like, welcome
Josh Lavine 0:20
to another episode of what it's like to be you. I'm Josh Lavine, your host. This is a different kind of conversation than I've had before. This is a conversation about a conversation. Last week I released an interview with my friend Sarah DJ, type nine, wing one, social self, Pres, and there was some enough going on underneath the surface of the last half hour of our conversation between the two of us that I thought it would be interesting to bring her back and have a conversation about what happened. So in this conversation, we look at the video of what transpired between us in the last half hour, and we talk about it. It's pretty cool, because I I loved, I loved this conversation. It was a more mutually focused conversation than my typical one way interviews I get into my attachment pattern and what happened in these micro social moments where you know I want someone to like me, or I'm afraid that I'm gonna hurt someone with a question. And also, what happened for Sarah and her attachment pattern as we got into kind of this wonky territory, so it was really good stuff, kind of unpacking that together. And you know, to be honest, I live for this. I love this kind of stuff. I love I love looking at these kinds of micro, social moments, and it's so cool. It's just so cool to have a conversation with someone who's willing to go there. And it's also so cool to actually play back the tape and really see, like, what is, what's going on on my face? What's going on her face? How? What are our unconscious, reflexive attachment strategies that are playing out in subterranean social space. So suffice it to say, I think this conversation is really cool, and I really appreciate Sarah for being willing to come back and do this with me, and I hope you enjoy it. I have to say one other thing about this conversation, it's that what I learned in this conversation is you can't have a conversation about a conversation without it also being a conversation. What I mean by that is that my attachment strategy showed up again in this conversation, and you'll see around the 5455 minute mark, a moment where I just have to take a breath, because I noticed that as I'm even as I'm trying to describe what happened to me in the last conversation, I feel like I'm about to bump against some territory where what I'm if I were to just really put my finger on it, it would be hurtful. Or I can't, I don't even know that I have the words, but it's, um, there's something I reach, some inner block, and I do eventually come back to myself. But attachment patterns are alive, and they are happening in real time. And so this is a very interesting conversation, obviously, to see what happened last time, and of course, a little bit they're happening this time as well. So off we go. One of the reasons that I wanted to do this in the first place is because, as I mentioned to you, the interview was about an hour and a half and the last half hour of our interview, I I asked a question that was like, kind of penetrating, and it was basically to the question, How are you feeling right now? But it was kind of, it kind of was like a stop sign, and it was kind of like, let's check in and see how we are. And and then the half hour that happened after that was fascinating on many levels to me, especially as I watched the interview back and what I revealed to you, what before we start recording, is that I actually was holding a certain self consciousness during that half hour, right, that I overdid it, that I that I overstated the dynamic that I was seeing in you, that I was trying to call out. But I also had the sense that, because I and I it's and again, I as we watch it, I think, I think I was picking up on something that was, that was genuinely true, but also I think I just the degree of it was maybe a three instead of a seven, as I was experiencing it, right? And a three out of 10. Three, that's seven out of 10, not three inning, room side, right? And, and then I'm curious about to hear you, but my, my experience of you in the moment was that the it was it derailed you and it and it hit you, and and then it like significantly shifted the dynamic of our conversation in the moment. Yeah. Mm, hmm. And so there's a lot to unpack about that on both sides. So yeah, maybe you want to respond to what I just said before we start the clip.
Sarah Simon 5:09
Yeah, yeah. Give me a rebuttal. Josh, yeah. You know, I think one thing that we talked about pre this call was definitely your insecurity in that last 30 minutes, which surprised me that you were feeling that way, and that's one of the reasons you called us to this meta commentary, because of your own memory of how you were feeling in that moment that you watched yourself, um, up again through the recording, and I remember ending our call and feeling a great fear that I had disappointed you in some way, yeah, some some sort of shame about not being as revelatory or revealing, like the structure of my mind as I could and we talked about that being an insecurity of on some level, all attachment types, maybe particularly three, maybe particularly nine, just kind of like, what did I just give myself up to? Who am I? Six? First, what am I thinking? But on some level two, now that you say that about you, you were pushing. You were trying to get something out of me, a dynamic that, you know, is there, but you were going at seven instead of three. I think I definitely felt that too, in terms of, he's looking for something, he's looking for something, I swear like it's there, right? But I'm not guarding it as much as you think I am. Yeah, and, and so part of why you did that probably was, you know, just because this is a podcast, this is something people listen to, like, there's a major point, and what you're looking for is true. But at the same time, your insecurity and maybe pushing too hard brought up the shame, and maybe I wasn't like, doing as good of a job revealing my inner life as much. And I think that something happened there, something really social happened there, that on stage that probably wouldn't have happened if we didn't have this stage, right?
Josh Lavine 7:15
Yes, yeah. And we're two social types, yeah, yeah. That's huge, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. So that's interesting, just like, the the subterranean, what's the right word? Like, feedback loop that happened within, like, what was going on inside me and was going on inside you that was not actually being verbalized, but the that that became actually the in a certain way, the dynamic, right? That was actually going on, and there was and then we were saying words on top of that that were also sort of another dynamic. But anyway, so that's interesting.
Unknown Speaker 7:56
I'm thinking about
Josh Lavine 7:59
your use of the word gas lighting, and how it probably relates to what you just said, where there's a there's a certain and I actually, I want to hear your words about it, but my prompt is it sounds like there is this seven Fix thing going on, where you're envisioning a promising vision of a reality, yeah, with a person, or just like the seventh thing, of like, seeing possibilities and being like, Oh, that would be so cool. But yeah, because you're core nine, sort of the fantasy stays at the level of fantasy and doesn't get actualized or even necessarily articulated, or there's a way that you're sort of maybe waiting or hoping for the environment to fulfill it for
Unknown Speaker 8:54
you. Yeah. And yeah,
Josh Lavine 8:58
yeah. And can you connect that.to how you were using the word gaslighting before, and what you mean by it.
Sarah Simon 9:03
Yeah, I really like how you're drawing that line, kind of like using the Enneagram as a map, if we go with that, maybe the seven idealizing, wanting this and this of the world, the glisten of very much, this earring, right? The sparkle, sparkle. And then the nine, you know, kind of absorbing that feeling, that being buoyed by it, right, and then maybe mentioning it, but mostly waiting, mostly seeing, mostly waiting done a lot of waiting in relationships, which is something that I'm actively with my cute, 27 years old. I'm trying to be more deliberate about not doing okay, pause, not being patient in relationships, but just like communicating. So sometimes what. I speak Josh, I'm like, why? I'm like, why do people because sometimes they get feedback, and this was the feedback that I think you are giving me that right? Like I'm floating in the air, like I'm being insincere in some way, hard to follow, and I'm looking at myself here, kind of just like looking off in the distance, kind of speaking like, of speaking like a hippie, like, wow, I'm 27 years old, like all of these things, like the but what I try to do when I speak sorry for the siren is very much like, give you the inner tracings of my world. Because I'm just like, I don't even know how to arrive at anything without going through all of these things. And for folks who, you know, know ops or objective personality system, they type me as S, I, F, E, so Introverted Sensing. And it's like, I don't know there's some need. And this is something I've had to cut short over just by this kind of feedback, but there's some need to be like, I need to show you all of the things that are happening to me that, you know, help me arrive at something right? And to some people, I think that can come off as just kind of like, this is my internal world, and this is and kind of like, monologuing, or kind of Soliloquy ish or poetry or something, and so they're like, oh, like, you know, get over yourself type thing. And maybe this is me just projecting. I don't know if anyone here who's listening to this podcast is like, oh, who does this? Sarah thinks she is this and that. But that's like a real insecurity I have, but also something that I've tailored and adapted because of that reason, but also something that, like, I'm willing to die on the hill, on Hill. Of like, I'm like, I have to, I can't. It's really hard for me to just, especially with these kinds of questions, not do this.
Unknown Speaker 11:53
I don't know, what are you thinking?
Josh Lavine 11:58
Wow. Well, first of all, I'm just, I'm really noticing your energy around that point, there's so what I'm thinking, just watching you talk here, is that the thing that I started to notice, and it wasn't just in this moment, it was it was throughout the conversation, little moments like this, where it's almost like
Unknown Speaker 12:18
you Have,
Josh Lavine 12:20
how do I put it's almost like you're tracking this deep river of meaning in you. But there are these swirls and eddies that go sort of right out here into this little pond, and then it's sort of like along the way you're you're flowing forward in this river of meaning you're kind of floating on it, you know. But like you kind of, you're raft. Every once while it gets it stuck in these ponds, you kind of come back and you just float a little further down. And I, again, I don't mean to be, um, whatever, unfair in my characterization of of you, but that's, that was my experience. And as we'll see, like when I, when I kind of pulled the stop sign up, and I asked you how you're feeling, right? I was what I think in the moment I was noticing was that there became a higher concentration of those kinds of moments. And I was wondering kind of where you were internally,
Sarah Simon 13:13
right? No, totally.
Josh Lavine 13:15
You know what I mean, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Sarah Simon 13:18
And any, any, like, power or anger in kind of like the energy that I'm holding right now. It's not directed towards this conversation or you. It's just remember, it's all the experiences I've had with like me, being and communicating in this world. But like you have to look at specifically, like in my environment, in this time, where maybe there's less of a tolerance or less of or when I was growing up, there was I learned in school all the time to be succinct, uh, which, which is fair. Like we, we need to know what our points are. We need to arrive at a thesis statement. But sometimes what gets lost in that is the nuance and complexity, which I so desperately feel a need to, like, always communicate, always communicate. And so, as I said in this interview, kind of like finding the most important points and then like going into the eddies and the swirls around them, I think is how I deal with that, like still feeling like I'm catering to that si or that internal need to just, like, get at everything to some extent, but that's still something I'm working on and trying to negotiate with. So
Josh Lavine 14:27
it's like a, it's like a thoroughness instinct, yes, or something like that, yes. Like, it's like the fear of the fear of being succinct. Like, to be succinct would mean, for you, in a certain way, cutting off
Speaker 1 14:46
the possibility of of complete meaning, right? And you know,
Sarah Simon 14:54
yes, but I've also actively, like challenged that idea, because a lot of the time, just by. Virtue of how conversations in the brain works, maybe you can lose the meaning if you don't also gravitate towards those main points, or if you don't actually have them in mind, and you just start talking like, hopefully I'll arrive there, you know, which is what I've done for a lot of things in my life. And so growing up has been like, you know what are, again, like the values, like the main things, like the main story points, or the main things that I believe in, are the main ways that I want to be in the world, that I can center all my swirls around,
Speaker 2 15:35
yeah, yeah. Fascinating.
Josh Lavine 15:39
Should we keep going, yeah,
Sarah Simon 15:43
and then maybe going to the three from there where it's like, if I just do all the right things, if I just look the part, or if I just get the job, or if I just act the way that maybe you want me to act, then maybe I won't actually have to tell you explicitly. Or maybe I won't have to do anything explicitly, or put that no, or put that boundary, or say this thing, and it'll just manifest, and it'll just come into being, right? But then when it doesn't, it's, it's, it's, you know, that anger comes out. And maybe that's what I meant by gaslighting. I think that term, as we said, gets thrown around so much without real definition. But gaslighting is what it's, it's, it's really making someone believe, like question the reality. You know, if you go back to where the term comes from, it's from a movie called I'll
Josh Lavine 16:41
stop here for one second. So I remember that so you could see I almost stopped you there. Yeah, chose not to. I bet you did. Yeah, that's interesting. So that's social nine, yeah. So like that sensitivity. So I think, um, you know the prompt this question that I asked you, was around gaslighting and, and we are about three minutes after I asked that question, and now you're talking about gaslighting and, and so actually, I was, I was just about to sort of bring it back to that but then you brought it back.
Sarah Simon 17:22
Yeah, that's like, my own, like, little torture that I have to do. Like, I'm just, like, I'm getting there. You just have to follow me. I swear.
Josh Lavine 17:33
Yeah. Okay, so let's keep going. Let's keep on. Oh, man,
Sarah Simon 17:37
where, like, this husband is, like, turning down, I think the gas on the lights and making it dimmer. And then the wife asked, Why is it dimmer? Like was, Why did you turn it down? And him being like, well, it was always this way. It was always turned down. I don't know what you mean. This reality has always been this way. And so I think in there it's like, but in my mind, it's always been this way, how I thought you were, what I thought we were here together. And of course, it's not just, you know, any individual's fault. Every relationship is takes two to tango. It's, it's, it's a, it's a whole thing. But I think that was definitely my end of it. And it's kind of like a little girl. I mean, this is so painful, Josh, it's kind of like a little girl just being like, maybe, maybe, maybe. And then if I just, like, do all the right things, maybe, maybe, maybe, without actually coming into I your own energy of this, the only word that's coming to me is is, is saying no. And maybe that doesn't even look like saying no. You know, saying no can look like a lot of things. It can look like just being more honest, it can look like, you know, realizing that, you know, based on your experience, this relationship probably won't go in a way that will be good for both of you. It's not having that scarcity mindset where it's like, well, let me just hang on to this, and I'll make it work. And this and that, even though they said this to me, even though they did this, I can just gloss over it. It's fine. It'll be okay. And just being like, Wow, if I really come at myself and other people in the world, you know, and this is such a buzzword right now, but, but from a place of abundance, where it's like, there will be enough. You will be able, if you're here and present and honest with yourself and other people, and with vulnerability and with your growth and with your love and with your care, you. Yeah, and you don't try to hide things. I've done a lot of hiding and lying, Josh, that I didn't even know where it came from. So to this part, if we can just pause real quick. Yeah, this is right just before you're about to pause which, which will be great. But I just want to say real quick, I think some of this is like preachiness, and not necessarily in a bad way, but, you know, and again, we're doing meta commentary, but with social self press stacking. What I find myself doing a lot of the time is like, how do these universal lessons, like, how can I? Because I do seek universal truths, you know, and I feel very if I don't have them. And I obviously, you know, give voice to some of them here, but that's partially because of fear that there are no universal truths going to the Enneagram is like partially, you know, wanting to use this tool as, like the ultimate truth, because or a universal truth. And so like a social self press preachiness might come in there through this, like social nine, that's like there are these universal truths I went through this. I need to show you all the ebbs and flows of my experience, and therefore there's this larger message that applies to all humanity, you know, and I don't necessarily think that's wrong, but that's depending on what you're talking about. But the thought process is there to definitely do that like the drive is often to do that.
Speaker 2 21:28
That's okay, yeah, so that's a good framing, because
Josh Lavine 21:35
the reason I'm about to interrupt you is because so remember, the question was about gaslighting. And so now we're talking so to your point about bringing universal themes. We've we've talked about scarcity and abundance. We've talked about, we've brought back in the idea of saying no. We've brought we brought in this idea of, like, if you can stay loyal or truthful to your care and some other words that you put here.
Unknown Speaker 22:06
It's almost like you told
Josh Lavine 22:08
me, If I'm right, but in your mind, you were kind of corralling these universal principles to bear on this on on this question around gaslighting. And so what I was noticing here, and the reason I started, the reason I'm about to interrupt you, is because I experienced your sort of corralling of these universal principles as a kind of dispersion. And you did actually have a couple of really profound moments of answering the gas line question. You talked about like, you mentioned that you've lied and hit a lot in relationship. You've talked about how in relationship, you've held on to the fantasy of something without and just have sort of, in a certain way, felt that it was your reality and then insisted that that was the reality this whole time. So you've said all these things that were directly related to the content, to the idea of gaslighting. And, yeah, I think this is like me being a core competence type, also maybe six fix, wanting things to be kind of organized. But I was noticing, just like I had the feeling of, like, wait a minute, where are we again? Where are we in this conversation? And then I had the thought to ask you, how are you feeling? Right? And so let's just play this out and see what happened. One
Sarah Simon 23:28
thing, John, yeah, well, part of that too, why I kept going is because I wasn't sure that you agreed with me. Oh, good. Oh
Josh Lavine 23:39
yeah. Say more. Say more.
Sarah Simon 23:40
I wasn't sure that I was had said enough, um, and part of that is just the non verbals, kind of like, you notice anyone who watches this podcast or, like, listens even, will just be, like, she is constantly, she's like a bobble head, like, right? Because there is some need that I have, that people are with me because I'm so insecure that they're not even, even you, you know, having all this vocabulary that most of the world doesn't understand, and us sharing that, you know, with the Enneagram, yeah, and so you, you're not the most bauble. You're not as bobble heady as I, at least in this conversation, and that's partially because you're like, listening, and you're not trying to be, like, just an agreeable guy. You're trying to, you know, be critical and not criticize, but like, challenge and ask tough questions sometimes. And so part of that was kind of me performing for you, I think, where it was like, Maybe I didn't say it right. I didn't have right yet the right words. Maybe I can get this combination of words, and that's where a lot of like poetry and a lot of my fascination with language comes from. It's like, what way will make it sink in, in you or some faceless listener?
Josh Lavine 24:56
Yeah, and you mentioned prior to our starting this recording. Reporting that you felt on during our call, that you were sort of sensing you were, you were on the edge of your seat in a certain way, because you felt I was on the edge of my seat. Ready to interrupt with, as you called it, a Map Quest update, which I love, yeah, basically, like, like, putting coordinates in. Like, where are we here? What's what's redirecting you? Like, what's the core of this point here? Kind of, right? And so my sort of social holding of you in this conversational moment was not particularly balmy and expansive. It was more like
Unknown Speaker 25:37
watchful and,
Josh Lavine 25:38
yeah, vigilant about a certain thing that was kind of putting you in a yeah state that was not quite relaxed, like
Sarah Simon 25:52
Right, right, and I think the fear or maybe anger I held against You in those moments when I could sense you breathing into the microphone, getting ready to say something, and I'm like, Ah, right. That's just like me trying to just be like, Oh, it's all good, babe. Like, I'm covering the camera right now. Um, just wait, just I promise, like, um, part of that is, I think that comes from, yeah, it's good. That should be the opening scene of this. Like, just imagine, like, the wind covering a sand dune, like, shaping like, like, evening out the sand, yeah. Um, nine is the wind of a sand dune of the world. But anyway, oh, part of that anger, folks just remember, on the wind, part of that anger is this frustration that words can never express the full humanity and like the full processing that ever that, like most people, everyone, to some extent, I'm sure, goes through, but that I certainly am going through, it's like How it's like this need to deliver to make all parts of myself known. And I think this is very nine like this. Want to just have all parts of me held like all of my humanity, but that just not being a possibility, because we all have our own experiences, and no one can fully hold me if I don't hold myself right. And so, or no one can fully hold you period, like you have to be an active participant in the process. And so I think a lot of that is kind of this frustration with not that not being a reality, but me wanting it to like, I want you to understand all parts of myself. But some of that, in order to be more clearly understood, has had to get, has had to be me becoming more succinct,
Josh Lavine 28:15
yeah, it just your metaphor of the wind. Yeah, you know, you can't, you can't hold the wind and and if, if it's like, it's almost like there's this, this really deep paradox of, like, on the one hand, wanting to be held. On the other hand, when the feeling of you're not being held surfaces, it's a kind of trigger that makes you a little windier, you know, yeah, or disperses a little more, kind of tries to smooth out and so, or something like that. What I'm hearing is like, you were kind of like, that's smoothing over. You were like, sensing that I was about to interrupt you, yeah, and, and you were like, no, no, hold on. Like, like, trust me, I've got, like, I know what I'm talking about. I've got this point here. It's just like, it's coming together. You just need to, like, shut up and wait for it.
Sarah Simon 29:14
100% 100% Yeah, that's it. That's it. That's it. And if anyone listen listens to my music, that's literally all I'm doing. I'm just like, it's just like, this very nine voice, and it's just like, you know, and so that is very much kind of, like the internal, yeah, I'm the wind. Very much, very much, very much.
Josh Lavine 29:40
Let's keep going, because so I'm about to interrupt you here in this conversation, yeah, and then, and then the dynamic really shifts. So yeah, let's
Speaker 2 29:47
see what happens. Wait for it. Edge of my seat, yeah, yeah. Yeah,
Josh Lavine 30:01
um, how are you feeling right now? Talking to all of
Sarah Simon 30:05
us, I feel, I I've been feeling our conversation is kind of like a piece of music, like the rhythm and the harmonies and kind of like the crescendo and the decrescendo, like I've been feeling it very much in that way, and really interested in the energy of it. How am I feeling? I'm feeling I don't know. I don't I don't have, like, a big word. There's an ambulance outside.
Speaker 2 30:42
I want to
Josh Lavine 30:46
just, yeah, take a breath and yeah, see how you feel. Yeah, you
Sarah Simon 31:04
Yeah, I feel like it's it would be good to slow down a little bit. Yeah,
Unknown Speaker 31:07
okay, yeah.
Josh Lavine 31:10
I have a lot of questions about what just happened there. I want to tell you what happened for me first. So, okay, okay, so, so there I was asking you how you're feeling, and then yeah, and then you gave us this answer about the the musical the rhythm of our conversation, which in the moment, I was like, skeptic love. But then when I watched the interview back, I was like, Oh, wow. Actually, that was a really good characterization of it. So what I noticed, so I noticed happening as I watched the interview back was that a certain skepticism started to form for me about your location, about your awareness of your own location.
Unknown Speaker 31:55
Yeah,
Josh Lavine 31:59
and and so I had the feeling of, like, Wait a minute. Let's like, let's just get back here and then, and then I'll have a felt sense of when I know that we're, like, together again, right?
Unknown Speaker 32:11
That was my feeling.
Josh Lavine 32:14
You're what you're about to see, though, is me avoiding saying that directly because I became self conscious about my being direct, and the intensity of that energy being kind of disrupting your flow. And this is probably my nine fix talking, but it's like,
Speaker 2 32:35
you know, but, yeah, no, I but, yeah, no, I
Josh Lavine 32:41
was holding, I was holding that kind of like, what's the right way to put it? I guess skepticism is right word. And by the way, I want to be clear, it's not, yeah, it was not a what,
Unknown Speaker 32:59
I guess the word is,
Josh Lavine 33:00
it was not, you know, a judgment. It was a kind of like, I'm wondering where Sarah is right now, you know, yeah, it was kind of like a not. It was like a not fully trusting that the conversation was congealed enough, or something like that. Well,
Sarah Simon 33:20
two points in there, I would still be insecure about it, because, like, for all the work and all this that I say, Oh, I'm an Enneagram, like, I've thought about myself, blah, blah, blah, if I were being called out for not being truthful, I would still feel insecure about that and be like, Oh, this is all a farce, right, right, to some extent.
Josh Lavine 33:42
Sorry, okay, I was just gonna mention one thing. So later in this conversation, you, you brought up the point about around being self conscious, about attachment types, being seeing it as insincere and authentic and stuff like that, right? And, yeah, I saw that's, I noticed that you that's, that's kind of where you went and when you went there in the moment, I was surprised. Actually, I was surprised. I was surprised that that was the insecurity, or that was the thing that came up for you, because my experience was actually not that you were being authentic and sincere, but that there was just a nine thing going on. Like I was just like, Oh, I think Sarah's dispersed, and it would help to breathe and come back home.
Unknown Speaker 34:32
Okay, okay,
Sarah Simon 34:36
let's, let's, let's talk about that when we get there. Yeah. The The second thing I just want to say about the insecurity that you had about interrupting the grandness of my flow, right, incorporating all these like ebbs and flows. Well, what I said before about wanting to feel held or making sure that I got something across to you. I. Generally, all people need to do, maybe in order to stop a general nine from spiraling to, who knows where is to just be like, Okay, I understand what you're saying. Okay. Because, because there's that anchor in reality, but also, like the nine grandness, just maybe in particularly in my case, I don't know, but there is something, of course, about the nine, the body type, the wanting to be held, the needing to expand itself, so much so as to, like, find all ways to be held without knowing it's without knowing its boundaries, if you offer it a boundary, like I'm on page with you, like I'm on your page. I understand what you're saying, maybe paraphrasing it back. I mean, just showing that you're listening essentially, remember, we talked about that, like a fear of not being listened to, because I think I have to, I'm responsible for incorporating all these things and but so it's that, that tug that always happens, yeah, and so I think again, like one way to just stop someone from going down this, maybe the nine swirl, is just be like you said this, right, okay, all right,
Unknown Speaker 36:10
I understand it. What's
Josh Lavine 36:14
different about what you just said versus what I was doing in this conversation?
Sarah Simon 36:20
You were doing that. You were doing that, which is one of the reasons I wanted to have this conversation with you. But you just weren't as Bob again, the bobble Lee head thing. I wasn't sure in the moment.
Josh Lavine 36:33
Oh, that's a Oh, that's good. Okay. So you are receiving, like, a kind of consistency of social cues for me that was still with you, right?
Sarah Simon 36:41
And which is something that I need to work on, because not everyone needs to be getting a migraine in order to listen to me, but or like a TBI from bobbling their head all the time. But that was certainly something playing out, especially over zoom, possibly because it's harder to read.
Josh Lavine 37:01
Oh, yeah, that makes sense. That makes sense to me. Oh, wow. This feels like a pretty important and big deal point, because, yeah,
Unknown Speaker 37:09
it's like,
Josh Lavine 37:11
so as a social nun, like, the thing that you're most attuned to is the social holding. And, yeah, there's a certain way that it's like you want, you want to be held,
Speaker 2 37:25
and you're Yeah, not even for Yeah,
Sarah Simon 37:32
not even that you necessarily need to agree with me, but just so that you understand me, sure that I'm making myself clear, which, again, you're very adept at doing, but You kind of summarize it at the end, after the person's done speaking, whereas, and I told you, I'm going into my PhD in August, so one thing, and I'm I have an internship as a therapist at a clinic. There you go. Yeah, as a therapist, I'm like, constantly, like, like, summarizing, like interrupting the flow of this person, which I should probably tailor to the individual, unique communication style of each person. But at least my communication style is very much like, Okay, are you there? Are you, there are you, there are you there all the time, and that's when I feel the most stable, and probably am the clearest in a conversation? Yeah, so
Josh Lavine 38:24
this is, God. There's so much to say about that point. I'll just say here's the one thing that's coming up for me really strongly, is that it feels like the like the true catch 22 of the whole situation for a social mind is that as as you're losing your perception of contact, social contact with with the other person.
Unknown Speaker 38:55
Yeah, your
Josh Lavine 38:59
that causes a certain kind of dispersion, because it's like,
Unknown Speaker 39:03
wait a minute, where,
Josh Lavine 39:04
what's my container that I'm in? Now, you know, it's like the other person is providing this container for you. It's like, okay, here's these and I'm being held in this container, and by the listening of this person, by their by their being with me, by their witnessing of me, by their being being with me. And and when you lose contact that you disperse. And also, there's the numbing thing that goes on, which makes it more difficult to actually sense whether or not the person is with you.
Speaker 2 39:33
Yeah, what? What difficult thing? In other words, like, schematically,
Josh Lavine 39:42
nine wants social holding, yeah, nine doesn't feel social holding, nine disperses and numbs, making it harder to feel when they get held again. I.
Unknown Speaker 40:00
Let me sit with that for a sec.
Sarah Simon 40:07
Okay, I really like how you're drawing that out, right? That, okay, so like, in the moment of that, there's a there's desperation to it, where it's like, yeah, yeah, it. Are you giving me the social holding. Do I think, regardless of whether you are or not, are you showing that to me in a way that I can understand, right? And then if you go on not doing that, then I consistently disperse, or, as we said later in the video, taper off, right? And also, this is your addition, and also numb, so that when you come back,
Unknown Speaker 40:50
I'm kind of just like,
Sarah Simon 40:52
like in this moment, looking at myself right now, I You see how I cutesy up to the camera, yes, and later, later in the interview, it didn't look like I was hiding or like being cut off to the side. It's great. In the actual call, it didn't look like
Josh Lavine 41:11
that, but the cut, yeah, but
Sarah Simon 41:15
still, like I drifted off to the side, right? And so I remember feeling red, like, feeling like, like, that kind of desperation of that kind of blocks out I see red, and I kind of block out any sort of social holding that you can give me after, because I gave you many it sounds it feels like I gave you many chances and you didn't Yeah. And so now I'm just like,
Josh Lavine 41:45
you know, yeah, and so wait so now, but here's like, this is good, because now you're angry with me, and now I'm but also you're also wanting holding from me. Yes, yeah, yeah. So that's, that's a, that's a funny position to be in there too, because it's, like, hard, it's and again, I'm not saying that I acted perfectly in this situation. I'm just saying that, no, that the, you know, wanting holding from the person you're angry with is, you know, it's, actually, there's a parallel in the three, by the three, by the way, I'll just where I've experienced in in early relationships, where I yeah, I wanted, so bear, I wanted, I wanted validation and and seeing from the people that I was competing with, yes, and so it's like I'm competing with my girlfriend, you know about Wow, our whatever, our ability to get an A on an English paper or something. But I also want her validation that I'm a good writer and but the more validation she gives me, the more hostile I become, because I don't, because I don't want you to, I don't want it's like, there's a it's me rebelling against my own need for that, you know, but it's, or it's like I wanted to send them on two feet, but I still need it,
Sarah Simon 43:09
right? That attachment to disconnect.
Josh Lavine 43:11
Yes, that's it. Yeah,
Unknown Speaker 43:15
right, and so,
Sarah Simon 43:18
but there's something about wanting to be approved by people, or be on the good side of people, even if you wouldn't necessarily like like them on some level, but then maybe resenting yourself for once they do start to express like, liking you, because it's like, Why did I again like? Why did I lend myself so much to you when I don't even like you on some level, the
Josh Lavine 43:46
way, the way I'm I'm getting my hands around it is, it's like, let me see.
This is the simplest way I could say it. It's like, nine wants social holding. Nine's not getting social holding. So fuck you. Like, ouch. I want you to hold me. I'm angry at you. But also, like the space you're making here in the still is like, this is, this is the unconscious, reflexive strategy to
Speaker 2 44:21
get me to hold you. Oh, man, wow, yeah.
Sarah Simon 44:35
Not only like being nice and demure and cute, which plays into my identity. Like my definitely like how I am, how I know of myself, how I present to other people as a woman, like, I don't know there's something there too with my social identity feeding into that. Yeah, sure.
Josh Lavine 44:58
Also. Just look at my face here. I mean, I've got some something going on here where it's like I am, and this is where the power dynamic comes in, in terms of, like, the perceived social status of whatever, you know, I have in your eyes, of the community, whatever, like, that whole thing, yeah, me with, with this kind of gaze, appearing like I'm seeing something about you, you know, and then you kind of like having to play play ball with my seeing. You know what I'm saying. No, you don't know what I'm saying. Okay, let me say
Sarah Simon 45:39
your gaze. I'm looking at your face
Josh Lavine 45:43
on this screen. This is a dart of the board. You tell me if I'm right,
Speaker 2 45:46
okay, it's there's, this
Josh Lavine 45:51
is like the super subtle micro dynamic in the in, like, this one second of a clip, kind of like thing that we're talking about. So we're like, zooming in. This is a map micro scope that we're like peering into this moment, but it's like, okay, all of the social dynamics that we've described leading up to this moment. So here you are in this interview. There is a there's I feel embarrassed admitting this, or like even saying the words, I'll just just, I'll say it. You feel that I have a certain kind of social status. And social status in the community. There's a certain, yeah,
Speaker 2 46:24
there's so that's,
Josh Lavine 46:29
that's a dynamic here you're on the one hand.
Unknown Speaker 46:35
Well, how do I put it? Like the
Josh Lavine 46:36
the way to impress me, or like to get my social holding back is to is to
Unknown Speaker 46:46
fall into
Josh Lavine 46:47
my frame of what I'm seeing and allow that to be quote, unquote true, and yeah, to, like, cozy up with me. So like, when I say, hey, let's take a breath. You're like, okay, sure, that would be a good idea. You know, even though it might not be actually how you feel or what you want,
Unknown Speaker 47:06
or something like that,
Sarah Simon 47:07
yeah. Well, there's a chicken and the egg there, I think, through, just like my own processes of understanding the importance of breath, like in itself, but also, like, of course, being in in your Enneagram school, going to your classes, listening to John luckovich on the podcast, going to his Sunday things like, that always happens the breath thing. And so there is, there is some element of it, like, Okay, right? But also noticing its importance. But I don't know which one came first, but certainly what you were saying about me cozying up literally to the camera and being like, all right, all right. Josh, okay, okay, knowing your social status, and also not even if, like you didn't have this reputation in the Enneagram community, like you have a commanding presence that's that's very polished, which we've attributed and the community has attributed, to your threeness. And because my tendency is to kind of disperse in front of people who maybe before I do solidify. Like, that's another thing with two with nine as well. Like, if someone disperses, I solidify. And that's a therapy thing, right? If someone solidifies, I disperse, right? Interesting and and so that is us coming at each other from these different points of the Enneagram with these urine assertive fix. I'm with John, you know. Or you're an assertive type. I'm a withdrawn type. I think some of that is playing out too.
Unknown Speaker 48:53
Yeah, okay, let's,
Josh Lavine 48:54
let's keep, let's watch a little more of the clip, and then see if there's anything more to draw out here. Okay, okay, okay, it'll be interesting to watch the the the tape back of the last few minutes, because my sense is, is that, is it true that this is really, is it true that this is vulnerable territory for you? Okay, there we go. All right, that
Sarah Simon 49:17
hurt, that fucking hurt. Josh, that really hurt.
Josh Lavine 49:22
Yeah. Say more, yeah. What happened? What happened there for you? Well, I was just
Sarah Simon 49:27
looking at my eyes, there, right there. I was like, okay, trying not to seem phased. Like I felt like, even though it was a question, we've we've gone over a couple of times.
Unknown Speaker 49:43
The purpose of this pause,
Sarah Simon 49:46
and the anger, whatever anger I've held, isn't like true anger, in the sense that, like it was done in this way that actually violates me. It felt like it. I.
Unknown Speaker 49:59
Um,
Sarah Simon 50:03
because I felt like I was being called a phony, yeah, felt like I was being called a phony.
Unknown Speaker 50:07
That's it, yeah? Um,
Josh Lavine 50:12
yeah. Let me play that back just a little bit. So, okay, it'll be interesting to watch the the tape back of the last few minutes, because my sense is, is that, is it true that? Okay, wait, really, so notice that. So my sense is that, is it true that? Oh. And then so I started the sentence, My senses Yeah. And then I and then I switched into a question and right that what happened in that moment was I was about to say, my sense is that it seemed like you dispersed or disconnected from yourself. Yeah. And then instead, what happened was I asked the question, was this vulnerable territory? And Right, right. I get why that question stung, and I don't think it was a very skillful question, in my view. And the I think it's interesting, because what happened for me here was, I was like, I was like, oh, here, like, we're we. I've held up this red light, and we are now in a different conversational dynamic, and it is shifting the tectonic plates underneath us. And my intention was to, like, reground us, but now I think that there are some, like, difficult or painful feelings happening for you, and then I and then, I and then, and then, I think what happened was my question, or actually, instead of just directly calling out the dynamic as I was seeing it, I asked this question that I think exacerbated
Unknown Speaker 51:54
it. So that was,
Josh Lavine 51:57
that was what was gone for me, internally, yeah, in the monolog, yeah, go ahead, right.
Sarah Simon 52:03
And so you go to the competent, competency, like it wasn't skillful enough. Like it wasn't this goes back to kind of what I was saying, like, I just assume, like, if someone, especially in the middle of me, like, waiting for you to, like, show me that you know something landed with you, I just always assume that the other person, especially if they address me, in the way that you did, kind of like with this sharp, kind of like, settled way that you're more correct or more right, or I'm just kind of like a blabbering little fool somehow, and I'm really ready to give up, like, my own truth sometimes, or just be like that, didn't you know? There, you know, and, and that's where the anger comes from. And that's, I think a lot of what's happening with nine is, I think Alexandra said it on a podcast at one point. It's like, if you don't know the way you are, then you're more susceptible to the dark side, or the shadow of how you are, like, impacting other people, not only like for your own health, but like, actually your relationship with other people. And so what we're unpacking here is kind of like all these assumptions we had about each other in these like micro sections,
Unknown Speaker 53:28
which to
Sarah Simon 53:30
some extent, weren't necessarily true, but that's just because of, you know, John La COVID, she said, we constantly miss each other. We miss each other all the time, and that's not because we're not trying to meet each other, but because, if we're not aware of our own ways of like communicating and relating to other people enough so that we can look at them from a third eye view, I'm getting to preachy social self press territory, Josh, then we'll miss each other, right? And so that's what we're trying to do with this call, where we're trying to see what exactly was going on and how we both wanted to understand and be understood by the other but it wasn't happening because of all of these things that We're talking about.
Unknown Speaker 54:11
I'm
Josh Lavine 54:21
taking a breath for myself here, and I'm noticing that I think it's so funny having a conversation about the conversation, yeah, it's still, it's still a conversation. And I noticed that,
Unknown Speaker 54:37
for me, the
Josh Lavine 54:37
dynamic is still, is is happening in a fresh way, where it's like we're exploring this conversation. We're exploring this conversation, we're exploring the territory of this being a painful moment for you, and on some level, I was one of the causing factors, that whether, you know, we could there's, we could endlessly debate whether or not I was the cause, or if it was trigger, if I was a stimulus, and there was a who fucking cares. But. Honest is that, like, there's something going on here that I'm holding for myself, where
Unknown Speaker 55:08
I just know so
Sarah Simon 55:10
it wasn't I feel, it wasn't like you caused it.
Josh Lavine 55:15
I know, I knew you're gonna react to that. I just give me one second. I just need to take a breath myself. Give me one second. Okay, okay, do
Unknown Speaker 55:43
Yeah, you know it's, it's so interesting.
Unknown Speaker 55:52
What's so interesting
Josh Lavine 55:53
is being so for me, being a triple attachment type and,
Speaker 2 56:12
being wanting to be like, so Careful, yeah, with like, so
Josh Lavine 56:22
that moment of me just saying that I caused something, it's interesting, like, that's the story in my head because, or that that's where my mind kind of habitually
Sarah Simon 56:30
goes because you weren't skillful enough, or something like that. Sure,
Josh Lavine 56:33
yeah, yeah. So that's something for me to look at.
Speaker 2 56:38
But there's, you know, let's see. There's a certain way that,
Unknown Speaker 56:55
what
Josh Lavine 57:02
it's like, and this is what happened. This is what happened for me in this moment, and then for the for the next five minutes, is
Unknown Speaker 57:09
is
Josh Lavine 57:18
feeling, on the one hand, like I was onto something like, like, on the one hand, that this, something about this, whether or not it was specifically, like the thing I was pinpointing, or something else, something about this was vulnerable territory for you. We had, we had, we cracked over the surface of something that was vulnerable, right? And wanting to hold that with sensitivity and let us take as many breaths as we need to, kind of like just be with it, right. And on the other hand, a a certain hmm.
Speaker 2 58:07
Uh, awareness that I just couldn't, like push it there. And
Josh Lavine 58:21
why couldn't I push it there? Because of my own resistance to pushing it there, to the feeling that if I were to push further,
Speaker 2 58:26
that it would be more painful for you. And so there's this, this, there's
Josh Lavine 58:37
this dynamic of, like, internal it's like, I want to explore what's going on here, yeah, but I don't want to ask questions that are so penetrating that it makes it more painful. But I want to ask questions in a way that keeps the conversation going, that lets us, that lets us, kind of like, explore this and regroup,
Sarah Simon 58:55
right? But we also weren't sure, like, what, how far was too far,
Unknown Speaker 59:01
right?
Sarah Simon 59:02
What that was, where it was, what it was, yeah,
Josh Lavine 59:09
let's see. Let's look at another like 30 seconds of this, and see if there's anything else that is worth unpacking. Is it true that this is vulnerable territory for you to talk about this kind of stuff at this length.
Sarah Simon 59:28
I mean,
Unknown Speaker 59:32
yeah,
Sarah Simon 59:35
there's a lot in here that stays in in here because I
I don't really, I don't really trust that everyone will be able to hold it, or everyone will, and not everyone should even hold it like here, I'm trying to say what you. Want me to say community of at least we have these terms that we can agree on, yeah, where it's easier to come to concepts, yeah.
Josh Lavine 1:00:06
Let me say differently, something that you said in our last conversation really stood out to me. It was that you automatically assume that other people aren't listening to you, right? Yeah, oh, yeah. So this, so this, that, and there it is. I mean, in a certain way, that brings it full circle to what we've been talking about, just you and I in this moment, right? Yeah, I'm thinking about, like, my self recrimination of that being an unskillful question. I'm just wondering about what
Speaker 2 1:00:37
would have been better there. I think I have an answer. Yeah, go ahead. Well, my first answer is that
Sarah Simon 1:00:52
this is totally okay, and we're all fine. And I think to some extent there is some bullshit. It's like small talk. There is some bullshit that needs to be talked through in order to get to the real stuff. There you go. And it's totally and it's not like a big violation, you know, if, if, if this happens. So that's why I'm, like, your own crimination about you not doing it skillfully enough like it. I want to react against that and that. You know, it didn't feel like that at all. And also, it's not bad for these feelings of anger to come up, right,
Josh Lavine 1:01:25
right, right, that's where I'll go. I'll immediately go to self recrimination if I feel like I made someone
Sarah Simon 1:01:32
angry, right? Yeah, you know, you did not do anything, you know, to directly or purposefully harm me. You know that that's if someone does that and repeatedly. You know that's not a conversation or a relationship you want to be in. But just because of just being different beings, holding all of these different experiences, which the Enneagram tries to help us understand more clearly, there's always going to be friction on some level, right? So I think one like, it's not bad that this process happened, but all the emotions that come up, they're okay, and, you know, this is therapy, like working through them, so that they don't stay there, but that, you know, it's cleared up to fuck. What was I gonna say?
Unknown Speaker 1:02:23
Oh, yes,
Sarah Simon 1:02:27
again, the whole thing about being in tune with how this person
Speaker 1 1:02:33
likes to feel in in conversation. So
Sarah Simon 1:02:38
a rule of thumb there, I think, and this is, again, my own therapeutic training. The way that someone is listening to you or interacting with you, or giving you non verbals or not, is probably the way that they like to be interacted with. And so I'm constantly again, like the bobblehead, right? And so I think the only thing that you could have done differently that would have made me feel less again, like that desperate, like, does he understand me? Where am I going? Anger swirl is just more non verbals, interesting, but, but there are the limitations of like, you don't know how that will sound over zoom. You know, maybe I'm not looking at you or feeling you nod, or feeling your body be in accordance with mine, because Zoom is really weird, you know, which is a whole other thing in like therapy, about virtual therapy, but that's the only other thing I would have changed, because I am very sensitive to that, and I'm trying not to be as sensitive to that. And my antidote to not being as sensitive to that is, you know, being on top of what I'm saying, to some extent, and really believing what I'm saying, and doing that processing by myself, but in exploratory stuff like this, like mind you, I, on some level, I wanted this to happen, even though the anger came up.
Josh Lavine 1:03:54
Man, it's so interesting having this conversation with you, because what, what I just what I realized as you were talking was that my, my self recrimination about that being an unstable question was actually like, it was not coming from the right place. Just minutes ago, when I said it, you know, it was coming from, it was coming from a reattachment place. You know, it was like, I was like, Oh, wait, I've broken attachment. Now I need to do anything that I can to, including, totally abandon any sense of like, what I think is right or wrong, to like, meet you and like, help you feel better, right, and make you like me. And so you know what I mean. And so that's, and that's so, that's my pattern, patterns upon patterns. So, so who knows? Maybe, maybe there could have been a more skillful moment. But there's also the thing of you know, I
Unknown Speaker 1:04:40
agree that
Josh Lavine 1:04:43
you know. Or actually, how do I put this? So your your thing around being supported by the bobble headedness, like, if I were a little more bobble headed, is really interesting to me. And I think that from from the point of view of this inter. You, or therapy or inner work, whatever the actual thing is, like, working with and exploring the discomfort when you don't receive it, because that's, that's what exposes the pattern, you know, that's what exposes, right? The thing that we're actually interested in talking about, at least in the context of an interview like this, right? So, and it's fascinating to because there was no way that we were going to get to that well, that thing in the interview we did, but it's but it makes total sense that we would get to it in this conversation about the conversation,
Sarah Simon 1:05:34
yes, yeah, Josh, this is a really good idea, this meta commentary. Like I feel like I remember leaving this call feeling a little bit like, Oh, I think I disappointed him, or like, I feel a little frazzled right now. I feel really profound and resounding and deep with you. Likewise, yeah, yeah, and this was a really good idea.
Unknown Speaker 1:05:59
Cool. Um,
Josh Lavine 1:06:01
okay, can we? Can we watch just the last Yeah, let's, let's do that. Sure. And yeah, so let's start.
Sarah Simon 1:06:09
I'm hiding. Look at me. I don't know what's happening to me right now,
Josh Lavine 1:06:13
the last three minutes of the call. No, what's happening? Oh, and actually, what viewers won't see, is that I, because I cut it out, was that you left to go to the bathroom and then you came back, and there was, we explored the possibility of stopping, like, just ending the conversation before you went to the bathroom. And then we were like, no, no, just go. We'll come back, we'll finish. And then we sat down, and this is what you said, Yeah. And
Sarah Simon 1:06:35
I feel a need to feel be kind of funny and silly right now, to kind of break any tension. I think, yes,
Josh Lavine 1:06:41
that makes total sense. And so do I?
Unknown Speaker 1:06:43
So why? Yeah,
Sarah Simon 1:06:45
I'm feeling pain that this is, like, ending. I don't know why. I think,
Josh Lavine 1:06:51
oh yes, yeah. I
Sarah Simon 1:06:53
think there's a lot of melding that I do and, like fusing with things that I do. And when it has to end, it's a little painful. Yeah, feels Yeah, because it just feels like I melted a lot. I don't know, yeah, I love I love that you said that. I love that you said that.
Josh Lavine 1:07:17
So yeah, that's social. That's like social nine finding its local groove in this, in this interaction, and then I feel
Sarah Simon 1:07:25
like I passed your test right now, having
Josh Lavine 1:07:27
to rediscover where you Isn't that so funny that that's what's going on underneath this dynamic. It's like, there's, it's, it feels like a, see, that's, and that's, I have to just say this because, like, yeah, I don't want these interviews to feel like a test. You know, no, but this is what they're supposed to reveal. I know it's, I know it's what they're supposed to reveal, but it's like my whole, my whole thing is, I'm I would like to and I want to do whatever I can to cultivate, like, the safest, most exploratory space, yes, in this kind of conversation holding, but it's just interesting to expose these dynamics around, like the social status point you bring up, and the fact that now, like, there's enough of these interviews out that people have, there's a certain psychological charge associated with coming on to the show, you know, right? And, and there's a certain set of expectations that may or may not get met or disappointed. And, right? There's all these dynamics, you know, because of the life of the of the show, right? I mean, and so, yeah, part of what I'm excited about, hopefully, is, I hope one of the effects of having this conversation with you out here now, like this meta conversation, is deflating some of that energy, and then bringing it back to just like, let's just
Sarah Simon 1:08:44
have a conversation, right, right? And I just want to point out specifically, like, even if you just trail those last couple of seconds when I when I was talking about, I fuse with people, all of this, you were about to say something, and then I interrupted you to say the exact same thing that I just said two seconds earlier, to make sure that I was understood, but also because I wasn't sure that what you were going to say was going to be in agreement with me. And then as I kept speaking over you, you're like, I love this point. And then I felt okay to give it up to you. Oh,
Josh Lavine 1:09:21
wow, that's, you see, interesting. Yeah, that's good. That's good,
Speaker 2 1:09:26
wow, yeah, see this is, um,
Josh Lavine 1:09:31
that's attachment one on one, right there. I mean, that's like, it's, it's these ruptured repair cycles that are very subtle. Yes, you know, there was a rupture. And this like, when you watch the half hour after that rupture, that entire thing was basically like finding our footing towards a repair. Yeah, you know? And we could talk about what was skillful, unskillful, but ultimately it's just who fucking cares. There was rupture and we were trying to repair. You. And, and so you get to see us both kind of using our attachment strategies to do that, you know, so and including so I actually, genuinely, sincerely did love this point. But also I made a point to,
Speaker 1 1:10:15
like, emphasize it. You see, do you remember doing that? Okay, yeah, I
Josh Lavine 1:10:21
made a point, yeah? And it's a little, it's like a, it's like an olive branch, or it's an outreach, it's like, it's, it's a certain saying, like, Yeah, I'm here with you. I get it, okay, and I actually, and also, you know, again, that is sincere, and I do understand, I do get it, and I relate as an attachment type, as I said,
Sarah Simon 1:10:40
I love how you're like, by the way, it's sincere. No, this is the game of attachment. Josh, it's like, I know, yeah, I'm doing all of these things as a game. But also it's sincere, like it's not fake to some level, like it can get fake if you don't put checks on it. But that's the tension. That's the tension. Yeah, that's interesting,
Josh Lavine 1:10:59
because watch me go there too, because I guess that is my insecurity that, especially with the word inauthenticity, floating around three space, like I've found myself hypersensitive to,
Unknown Speaker 1:11:09
right, right? So, yeah,
Josh Lavine 1:11:13
okay, so that was this, that was that moment. And then let's, let's go to the end of it too, because the way, the way that it ended, I think, is very interesting. I just want to point out a couple things. Okay,
Sarah Simon 1:11:23
just because there were different moments of connectedness doesn't mean that any moment was any less real. There you go. Especially for an attachment type, I think that I've talked a lot about not only what I think, but how I think, yes, I think that your questions at helping me get there were really great in helping me get there. And I hope that you know anyone who's curious in where their thoughts come from not just the seed of their thought, but like, Oh, my God. Well, that metaphor is failing me anyway, something like that.
Josh Lavine 1:12:13
Cool. Well, really truly, I think of these interviews as a as a kind of act of courage and you're being willing to expose yourself and be at the mercy of my questioning is really, I really appreciate it. So thank you.
Unknown Speaker 1:12:31
Okay, okay, and
Josh Lavine 1:12:33
that's how it ends. Um, I'm i The sound cut out. Can you say that? Say that one more time? What you said?
Sarah Simon 1:12:42
No, I just, I just said, at the mercy when you after you said it, and that was just repeating myself just now, yeah,
Josh Lavine 1:12:48
isn't it funny how so like you can feel in my in my statement there, in the words that I chose my awareness of, you know, the the the dynamic, the rupture and repair cycle that we kind of attempted to go through there. And
Sarah Simon 1:13:03
I was like, fuck you. You didn't affect me. Don't worry. Something like that, right, right, right?
Josh Lavine 1:13:09
Something like, Wait, really, that was internally for you, yeah. Well, I
Sarah Simon 1:13:13
sense what I'm seeing in my reaction to you. I sense the gravity of your like, you know, this such an act of courage, like, oh, like, I'm so ruthless, like, mercy of my questions, and then me being like, and then me being like, oh, at the mercy. Come on, just wanting to be, you know, like, oh, you know, it's actually playful, even though, as I told you, you know, I walked away from this interview feeling kind of a little bit stressed, yeah,
Unknown Speaker 1:13:36
yeah, yeah, you know. So
Josh Lavine 1:13:39
what happened after this moment was we stopped the recording, and then we chatted some more. And I think that was a little more. It was just kind of, it was just more reattaching, repairing thing. And I have to say, I don't think we, I mean, I feel really solid in terms of, like, our attachments right now, yeah, but I don't think, like, you tell me if I'm right. Like, I like, if we hadn't had this conversation, there would still be some weirdness. 100%
Unknown Speaker 1:14:16
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I think
Speaker 2 1:14:20
yeah. I'm just wow.
Sarah Simon 1:14:25
It really is a different feeling. It kind of going back to how you characterize energy as floating up here and then floating down here. Yeah, it's the resoundingness feels very much more grounded in terms of my connection with you right now, because I feel like we're both on the same page and we've solved an issue, right? Like when you go over a solution and you make up with someone, it's like the bonds that you have is much stronger because all the truth is aired out, or maybe not all. But you know. The real vulnerability, I think comes out and kind of like the real deep reflection. So I definitely feel much more resonant with you in this body space, rather than kind of in this frenetic other space.
Josh Lavine 1:15:16
I can feel it, even through these little tiny zoom windows. I
Sarah Simon 1:15:19
can feel it, yeah, yeah, it's nice. It's really nice. This is what people live for. I guess I
Josh Lavine 1:15:26
know it's I mean, certainly as well, I live for as a triple, as a social triple, attachment fight. This is what I live for.
Sarah Simon 1:15:35
And I totally said that, fully agreeing with what I said, but not wanting to come off as a cheese board. But, you know, just be like, I guess this is what people live for because of my own fear of expressing vulnerability. But there
Speaker 2 1:15:47
you go, yeah. Well, okay, so here we are, okay.
Josh Lavine 1:15:59
Wow. What a journey, fascinating. That was great. I loved that. I loved that I have one interesting, preachy, social self press point to make
Unknown Speaker 1:16:14
you know, I think that in
Josh Lavine 1:16:15
so I do, I do a lot of work with teams and executives and things like that, and my coaching, and one of the things that I feel is, is, is most misunderstood, is that trust is actually built through conflict.
Unknown Speaker 1:16:29
And the
Josh Lavine 1:16:34
trust is is, it's this very concrete thing. Actually, that's not how I would put it. I'm Oh, and I'm not even going to try to challenge myself to redact that. I don't even know what I would say. But the point is, is that trust is earned. It's earned Yeah, and it's and the way that you build it is through like rupture and repair cycles. It's basically like, trust is the feeling that our relationship can tear and that we, yeah, we can come back, at least from an attachment point of view. That's what trust
Sarah Simon 1:17:05
is for. My Yes, yes. And we won't completely go cannibalistic when that rupture is happening, yeah, you know, like, think of rupture and repair cycles that are completely, I mean, just destructive, you know, that's, that's not, that's not chess, that's trauma bonding. Yeah. Well
Josh Lavine 1:17:23
said, yeah. So, so on that note, thank you. Thank you for this conversation. Thank you. This has been really great, and I really appreciate it. And just our it's also, it's fun and kind of nice to have a conversation that is, is mutually focused, as opposed to my more one way interviews. So that's kind of fun to do this in this context as well.
Speaker 2 1:17:48
Yeah, yeah. Well, okay,
Sarah Simon 1:17:53
thank you, Josh. I, you know, everything I said, I'm really excited for this to come out. And sorry, I'm like, I realize I should say something right now. I'm really excited for this to come out and to see the kinds of reactions the meta commentary, how that just resonates with people and endlessly. I'm really thankful for this opportunity and this really good idea in the first place to do the meta commentary. Cool,
Josh Lavine 1:18:22
yeah, no, I'm glad you were down. Yeah,
Unknown Speaker 1:18:24
okay,
Josh Lavine 1:18:25
hold on that day you
