Kristen Oberly 0:00
I can, I can see the soul of another person through their dreams more so than what they're giving me, like, just face to face, like, like their dream is screaming all of these things that they're not, you know, like all of that feels more important to me, then, then to, you know, have a or establish a kind and typical relationship with, with a person.
Josh Lavine 0:29
Welcome to another episode of what it's like to be you. I am Josh Lavine, your host today. My guest is Kristen oberly. Kristen is a social self, Pres, 91963, try, fix. So she's Bermuda nine, and Kristen is an exceptionally talented dream analyst. She and her friends, our friends, Kaiser and Sammy, have a podcast now called insomnia, where they are analyzing each other's dreams, and through that, they've actually discovered slash invented a new process that they're calling dream incubation, that is a way of accessing your and working with your instinctual blind spot. And it's very powerful. Their podcast, I highly recommend it. It's very personal, it's very deep, and it's a very good demonstration of why dream work and tapping into your unconscious via dream work is one of the fastest track, most powerful, most surprising ways of working with your blind spots and also just kind of finding the thing that is the most sensitive nerve in your psychic ecosystem, and working with it so very powerful. I've been on the receiving end of a dream analysis from Kristen, and it was very amazing. You can check out her work on ink story, rebel.com that's her personal website. And you can check out her art as well as you can also book her for a dream analyst session. I strongly recommend it. One other thing to note about Kristen, she originally made a splash in our community because of her art, she created these visual depictions of each of the trifix combinations, and those are quite amazing as well. And she and David Gray are working on an extended trifix booklet that will feature some of those trifix illustrations. So be on the lookout for that as well. This episode is very interesting from the point of view of nine many people who are nines don't originally believe they're nines because they hear that nine is something called a body type, and they more identify with their feelings or their intellect. Now, the way body type is used in the anagram is not necessarily intuitive. The type nine is the body type that is actually the least in touch with in their unconscious pattern, the body center, the sense of fully inhabiting myself. Kristen has struggled with something called depersonalization for a stretch of time, which is a way of living your life, basically, not really in your body. And she has that's almost too light of a way to say it. It's a it's sort of an extreme condition, and she has better words for it, and she kind of paints the picture of it in a rich and textured way. But it's interesting from the point of view of thinking about type nine as a body type, and what happens in the deep unconscious pattern of nine as you're sort of further and further dissociating form from your lived experience. Something that I just find so fascinating about Kristen and this and what this interview reveals is that the your life force has its own kind of intelligence. It knows what is nourishing for it, and it knows what it wants to bring itself back to existence. So Kristen struggling in a state of depersonalization for a while, the thing that kept drawing her back to life was her fascination with the unconscious and literally her own dream world. So we explore that a lot. We also explore not a Christian's Bermuda nine swirling around, what is the the the form that my art will take? What's my personal expression of that? And we kind of compare her Bermuda nine swirl with my Bermuda three swirl. So some interesting stuff there as well. Okay, before we get to the interview, I have a couple plugs. Number one, please check us out at the Enneagram school. The Enneagram school.com we have a new class coming up that is an attachment type support group. My friend Alexandra, Arroyo, Acevedo and I are teaching this. It's an eight week program. It starts August 22 and it's specifically and only for types three, six and nine. And we're really gonna be focusing on is supporting each other and coming home to ourselves. So we're gonna be exploring, what is it that, what are the psychological mechanisms that, mechanisms that underlie attachment, types, self betrayal, self management. What are the ways that we leave ourselves in the under the stated goal of or the unconscious goal of maintaining or creating a connection with other people or with some sort of value system that we're trying to live by? And how do we come back to ourselves this is going to be not. As much a pedagogical lecture class, as much as it will be literally a support group. So we're gonna get to know each other. We're gonna just do a lot of personal sharing and a lot of witnessing of each other as we process the ways that we've left ourselves and come back home. So please check that out once again, that class starts August 22 and it's gonna meet for eight Tuesdays at 6:30pm Eastern Time. More information is at the Enneagram school.com. Okay? Without further ado, here is Kristen. One of the things that's funny about starting a interview with another Bermuda is that two Bermuda is coming together. I've used the phrase before. It's kind of like two temper peak mattresses, sort of meeting and wondering, it's kind of like, what form is this going to take? Because normally I'm waiting for someone else to give me something to respond to. And I imagine as a media type, you're the same, yes, yeah,
Kristen Oberly 5:57
yes, essentially.
Josh Lavine 5:58
So here we are. I Okay, so I think an interesting place to start would be so just you've, you've, you've made a splash recently in the in the Enneagram, in our community, with dream work and with your artwork in the tri fix thing, and I maybe I can't think of better what asks this, but like, how's it going?
Kristen Oberly 6:36
A little weird. I mean, I think that's kind of like, before I knew I was a social type, like, that's, I guess, where I was automatically going. And I thought like, oh, well, in order, I think one of my first thoughts was like, well, in order to have, like, anyone even respect me in this group, I have to get typed. That was kind of where my first thought went, like, oh, you know I could, I could track how certain people were taken seriously, and could like, I guess, speak on certain subjects because they were officially typed. So it's like, okay, then, like, we we acknowledge your opinion, you know what you're talking about, or whatever. Yeah. So I thought, Okay, I'll get typed. And then, I mean, without even knowing yet, like, about much about the instincts and stuff. So I didn't realize I was doing this or whatever. But I mean, one of the things as to how I engage with groups and to even feel as if I'm valuable or seen or heard or whatever, is that I have to offer something. And so it's, it's not exactly that. I only did the art to offer, like I was lurking on the group for a while and kind of like saying things here and there if I had questions or ideas or whatever. But I think the art was just kind of like, I noticed a lot of people like, I don't know, it kind of seemed like an untapped market. And so I was like, oh, you know what i i, I can, I think visually, this is how I have been taking in the Enneagram. And I didn't realize that my way was different from other people's ways. I guess, like some people don't think as visually as I do. So I had these thoughts of these characters like in my mind already, as like they were being described when I was listening to podcasts or whatever. And so I think what originally made me like draw them was a thought that was basically like, oh my gosh, I have to do this before someone thinks of it first. Like, I have to do it first, or else someone else is gonna think of it like, it's that totally like, not owning that. This is, like, an original idea or anything. I was just like, I gotta do it before someone else
Unknown Speaker 9:16
does it. Sure, yeah,
Kristen Oberly 9:18
yeah. So it's offering, I
Josh Lavine 9:21
guess, yeah, well, it's funny. I relate to that. It feels like maybe you're free fix talking there too, just like, soon it's like, I gotta get first to market or something like that. But yeah, so there's a lot of themes interesting to pull out there, just the social awareness of how what earns people respect in the group, and and then just doing that, and we talked in our pre interview chat about you lurking in groups before you kind of get in there. And I wonder how long did you look for, and do you still relate? To being a lurker in the group. Or do you feel like now you're, well, what's, uh, how do you think of your place? Um, yeah.
Kristen Oberly 10:09
I mean, I don't think I was a lurker for that long. Like, I think that's the other thing too. When I'm really interested in something, like, I get immersed pretty quickly. So I mean, one of the things like, I only got into the group, maybe, like, like September or something around like 2021 or whatever, and then it took me about a little less than a year to just start posting the pictures and getting involved in everything. But I also, like, I haven't done this with any other group. I think there was a pretty big shift in my life, like a couple years ago, and then, just like, you know, hyper shift within this past two years that I had been extremely withdrawn. Like, probably, you know, I was still tracking social but like, almost super nine to the point where it's like, I don't even really, like, see the value in me anywhere, I guess. So this group had kind of been like, you know, after sort of that phase of my life ending, I'm trying to, like, be like, I guess, embody something different and not like, this closed off, withdrawn person that hardly goes outside or whatever. And I think the group was, like, my first opportunity to, kind of like, Oh, hey, you know, here's an idea and, or here's, you know, some art, whatever, without even, like, I guess, thinking it would go anywhere. So I'm kind of still in a little bit of a shock that it did go anywhere. And people, like, I talked to a lot of people now and the, you know, the dream thing happened. I wasn't even expecting that, you know, so it is kind of just, like, really cool, because it's something I wasn't expecting at all. But also I'm learning more of just how social I am, because now I'm, like, very aware of, um, like, how people may view me and whether it's like, I'm, you know, liked or not liked, or whatever, like, I've never put myself in a social situation, to really be like, to know that I'm tracking that all the time. So now it's like, oh my God, I am tracking this all the time. I'm very aware. So it's like, it's cool, but it's also like a lot of anxiety. So I've been kind of learning to work on that, catch that in myself, become more aware of it in a way I don't think I ever had before. Sure.
Josh Lavine 12:55
Yeah, it makes sense. So I want to put some anchor points in our conversation to, okay, well, to anchor to and also to, because I think some of these will be reference points for us throughout this conversation. So first of all, you're full typing your social self, Pres, 91963, right? Yes, yeah, some things that we talked about in our pre interview conversation, like pretty much blew my mind. One is the misdiagnosis you had for so long, which was, I think I'm remembering this paranoid schizophrenia, yes, right? And you, and you were medicated for it for over eight years, right? And it's a misdiagnosis, yeah, yeah. Okay, so that's a huge deal. So that's interesting. And also, just to wait a little further into the darkness you had a period of depersonalization. Also, yeah, yeah. So I want to get into that, especially in the context of you being a body type, and also the Bermuda swirl that we talked about and its relationship to those things. And so that's one category of conversation related I think, is your tendencies towards withdrawing. And I love how you said, I think it was one of the emails, actually. I'll just pull up the quote you said, I'm able to quickly leave my body the worlds I've created in life, even if it mirrors reality, feel better and safer than this world. My misdiagnosis probably stemmed from this. I gave a lot of attention to these other worlds, and it started blending with reality. So this way that you live in a kind of alternate dimension, which I imagine, is, I imagine is populated with the dream world, shadow figures and things like that that somehow are intertwined with a. Um, in some deep way with our actual, quote, unquote reality, but you seem to live in this other one, or in a blend between the two, and so I just find that all very fascinating. Yeah, so those are some of the anchor points. So as a way of getting there. I think you've talked about this before in other places, so I don't want to spend too much time on just like your biography. But can you just talk about the the circumstances around your misdiagnosis? Actually, what I was about to ask was your sort of life story and like, dreams and stuff like that. But I think let's start with the misdiagnosis, because I think that that's a really interesting entry point into understanding just who you are and the ways that you were experiencing yourself as different from your social milieu, and as other people in your social media were experiencing you as different from them, and the problem that got solved by the misdiagnosis and these kinds of things. So that is a, yeah, that is a as a path forward,
Kristen Oberly 16:08
right? Okay, so, yeah, I think one of the things, being a withdrawn type, being a nine, I was like, I was still am very imaginative, um, like, you know, my mom would always say, like, Oh, she's in her own little world, you know, like, that kind of, you know, energy, um, and so I've always taken an interest in storytelling, You know, lots of social self press stuff, storytelling, tarot cards, you know, movies like, cult cinema type, movies like, it's just, you know, like that. That has always kind of been my area of like, where I spent most of my energy, which is also too I initially thought I was a head type, because I'm just, like, constantly in my head. But I think the misdiagnosis, like I kind of added that on of it could be that whole blending imagination and reality, because, like, I was experiencing, like, hallucinations and like auditory and visual, mainly visual, but it was, what age were you? Yeah, I was gonna say it was, it was about, like, 1213, so a pretty typical time in people's lives where, like, you know, hormones are changing, and like lots of especially like young girls, will experience depression and anxiety and stuff. And so it could be by a lot of biological or psychological things that that brought it on, or whatever. Like, it was just a very dark time in my life, and it could be a stress response or whatever, but I think being a Bermuda, you kind of are trying to with the with the Bermuda swirl, like you're Trying to locate yourself, and oftentimes you will do that to kind of anything, even, even if it's not you. And at that time, it was a lot of like, people telling me something's wrong with me, like, I think the mental health, like psychology and stuff, was becoming more or coming more into my awareness. At that time, people were talking about it in school and and people were mainly talking about depression and anxiety, which I also just didn't think I had, or whatever. And anyway, my my parents knew nothing about psychology, so they couldn't really weigh in, or they didn't have an opinion or anything. So I it was a lot of stress. I ended up going to a counselor who then took me or or I guess, suggested that I go to this woman who did diagnosis, and she did it the old fashioned way, like Rorschach tests and everything like I got, like, two months worth of testing done, and they gave me paranoid schizophrenia. I was like, 16. Do
Josh Lavine 19:38
you have a Do you have a definition of it, like the DSM or official what? What's your understanding of what paranoid schizophrenia is and why you were
Kristen Oberly 19:48
diagnosed with it? Um, I don't have the definition in front of me, but I know I knew it as you know, a basically chemical imbalance in your brain that that causes. Use people to have auditory or visual hallucinations, disorganized thoughts or delusional thoughts, and so when she gave me paranoid it was like a lot of my thoughts were incredibly strange at the time. It was an and that's why, like, I actually have my files, like I requested them at one point to even see what was going on and what she was writing down. And when I really think about it, like, you know, some of it was kind of scary, but a lot, a lot of it seemed pretty much like a really moody nine like just being upset about the world and withdrawing and stuff like that, like it. I was, you know, at the time, it was relieving, because I had, I finally had something to locate me, to say, like, here's where I am, and this is what I'm experiencing, and I guess this is how I like this is what I need to do from now on, is just cope with this. And
Josh Lavine 21:11
just to be clear, had you been had you been living with kind of unresolved tension about why am I different from the people around me that diagnosis helped you resolve, yes, okay, yeah,
Kristen Oberly 21:25
it was, yeah. I don't even really know, like, who I was around that I was exactly comparing myself to, but it is that just like the inner experience, just it felt very overwhelming, I guess. And why I say then things started blending maybe into reality is because, like, I was, like, seeing stuff and hearing things and just, you know, kind of going a little crazy. But I feel like the the information I have now, like, if I had given that to myself back in, you know, back when that was going on, I feel like I could have, like, there could have been a different direction, um, instead of having to accept this diagnosis and then get put on, like, anti psychotics For eight years, or however long I think it was. It might have been longer than that. Yeah, it could have went a different way, but it didn't. And that's why I think, like, it was a way to locate, it was a label I could I could say, Okay, this is me. This is what I have to deal with, whatever. But like, the entire time I, like, deep down, knew, like, No, this isn't right. Like, I wouldn't, oftentimes I wouldn't bring it up to people, and then I got myself trapped, because then, of course, you know, I would say, hey, I want, I think I want to get off my meds. I don't think this is right. And the doctor say, well, that's just a symptom of schizophrenia. Is you don't think you have it. And so it's like, oh shit,
Josh Lavine 23:06
okay, that's real. That's a trap. Yeah, yeah,
Kristen Oberly 23:10
yeah, ultimate, ultimate trap there. So it was, I think it's I wrote a little bit, I think in the one email, like, it's just basically, I betrayed all three of my centers, like, for far too long. Is, is just by trying to stop the Bermuda swirl and locate myself, like, in a way that's just betraying all of me and I had, I have to, like, I'm still, slowly, I guess, like realizing how much grief was in that, I think,
Josh Lavine 23:49
yeah, that's a pretty radical statement. Do you have language for and it's okay if you don't, but like the betrayal at each center?
Kristen Oberly 24:00
Um, right, yeah, that's interesting. I think, Oh, well, and hopefully, you know, I don't know if I'm completely mess it up, but just the first things that come to mind, like you said earlier, with at least in the body, I had depersonalization then for far too long, and I do believe it was from the medicine and additional add on some trauma and mix it all in and depersonalization for a very long time.
Josh Lavine 24:35
Can you say sorry, just for people listening, what is depersonalization and also just the timing of it, of everything, so yeah, and I'm also, I want to just zoom out real quick, just, I'm giving you a bit of a break. You said you were like, 12 or 13 when this diagnosis happened, right? It's like, yeah. I mean, come on, like you're 13, yeah. So like, I guess my point is, like, where my mind was going was, well, you could think of it as a betrayal of the mental sensor. Like I took someone else's orientation and just absorbed it as truth and didn't question it for later. But also, you're 13, and that's what kids are doing, you know? They're well, right? You know, yeah, yeah, that's also but it is interesting to look at this just from a from a personal journey point of view, and sort of the the way that this was such a clear anchor point of, well, actually, let me say it this way, like the diagnosis and then your ultimate kind of taking ownership of, actually, no, this isn't me, and then getting off the meds and just that whole journey is a really vivid and clear example of self remembering and coming home to yourself, right? And so I'm curious about that, that journey, and I imagine dream work was a part of that, yeah, yeah. But let's I just want to get, like, a time, just what's the timing? So you were like, 1213, got the diagnosis around like 2021, and you also had depersonalization. Personalization sort of in that. And can you also tell us what depersonalization is,
Kristen Oberly 26:07
right? Gotcha. Okay. Yeah, die. Diagnosis happened at 16, but all the symptoms and stuff happened at 1213, so yeah, the diagnosis was at 16, and then I was put on antipsychotics up until I was like 25 or 26 or something, maybe so like eight, 910, years, whatever. Um, so, okay, yeah. Also, what's interesting about that is I got off my medicine with, without, completely, like, denying the diagnosis. I thought I'm gonna get off my medicine, but I'm still gonna have this diagnosis, and I actually only, like, verbally denied the diagnosis, like, a year ago. Wow. Like I think I spent a good year or so just trying to completely ignore that it even happened, it all happened, and not just talk about it at all. And then it was only maybe a year ago that I ended up saying, like, you know what? I don't have that I never did, and yet, so I'm that time frame. I don't know if
Josh Lavine 27:24
that helps at all, but it does. And sorry, how old do you know I am
Kristen Oberly 27:29
28 about to be 29 so this is pretty
Josh Lavine 27:32
fresh still, yeah,
Kristen Oberly 27:33
this is fresh still, Yep, yeah, um Yeah. So depressed depersonalization started happening for me, maybe right around when I graduated college, or maybe a bit before the symptoms started happening. And I had experienced it a bit before, in like high school, before I was even put on meds, which is why I kind of always argued, like, am I having it from the meds, or is this just a part of who I am? So depersonalization nines have, like dissociation, I mean, all the body types, and that's why I don't think depersonalization is like specifically for a nine or whatever. I think anyone can experience it, but it's basically when you are completely disconnected from your body, that you don't even feel real. Like you look at your hands and it's like, well, these are not my hands, and your voice freaks you out even more. It's it's like you're on like, a really bad high, like, all the time. And I had it 24/7, like, all the time, and it, it was very uncomfortable. So I, again, also didn't think I was a body type, because it was just like, I'm not even, I don't know my body. I don't even like, I'm not connected to it at all, right? Because you had mistyped us
Josh Lavine 28:57
five, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, okay,
Kristen Oberly 29:00
right. So, like, the it was just a complete disconnect, and that's why I kind of see that as, like, its own little betrayal is having to deal with that. But it's, and I do agree with you that it is like, Okay, I was 1213, you know what? What do I know? Like, how could I have known better or whatever? But So this went on for so long that it's like, Why didn't at any point in time? I question it. You know that it went on for that long? Because, especially, like, for it to go on that long, like, if the depersonalization was from my medication, I don't know, because I could never get a straight answer from doctors or anything. And depersonalization for a while, every time I would try to research, it was only ever kind of discussed in post traumatic stress disorder, and it was only ever like. You know, certain periods of time someone would experience it, and I was experiencing it like chronically, like all the time. It wasn't just an hour or two of the day. It was from when I woke up to when I fell asleep. Like it. It was incredibly depressing. So I think a big part of coming back into my body, and also, like through dream work and stuff, is like really going through all of the emotions and experiences I had throughout those years, and being able to really reclaim them. Like there was a lot of trauma, there was a lot of like things that should I should have responded to, like in my body, but as a nine it's like anything that's traumatic or upsetting, I just kind of like swallowed it and, like shoved it away somewhere. So, like, dream work has been a way for me to really, actually let life impact me in the way that it should. And that's actually one of the things I love about being a body type, is that I can have things like impact me and really like resonate and hit me, I guess, in in a whether it's negative or positive. So I definitely didn't let that happen, or I just couldn't physically for quite a long time. Wow.
Josh Lavine 31:24
And then when did, when did the deep personalization resolve itself, right?
Kristen Oberly 31:28
So that's still to this day, like fizzling out. Let's see. So, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, it's, it's not as frequent, it's not every day. It's not to the point where I'm like, depressed about it. It's kind of, yeah, it's, it's like, I hardly notice it. If it is happening. I guess some days are worse than others. I think it's like, when I'm stressed out is when it becomes worse, but nowhere near where it used to be, and that may be the the fizzling out part maybe happened about a year ago.
Josh Lavine 32:05
So one thing that I'm thinking is that it just feels like there's think of just a spectrum of how in or out of your body you can be, and the the essential sort of gift of the nine is like being fully and inhabiting myself, like being fully in in myself, in my body, and then on the opposite of that spectrum is what your experience of depersonalization is, just like a total having left myself. And I wonder, is it this is just my own curiosity about the condition. But is it like when you're having an episode of depersonalization? Is there an emotional life that is still in you? Do you? Do you feel the fear, or is it, I imagine it's sort of terrifying in some way this, but I'm curious, what's your actual experience of it? Like, do you have an emotional response when
Kristen Oberly 32:59
you're when you're in it? Um, yeah, like, I can still, and that's the thing that was just so strange about it all, is like, anytime I'd research it, and it was like, mainly people with, like, PTSD, it was like a really big fear, and like, your body's just shutting down, you know, for me, it was like, I can still walk around and talk to people and laugh and cry and everything, like it was just like, this thing hanging over me, like I just was almost, I don't know, like, observing myself from like, way somewhere else than like, right here. I don't know how exactly it's just so it's like, I've tried so many different like metaphors to describe what depersonalization feels like, or felt like, especially like from when I woke up to when I fell asleep, and I really could never get it just right, because I think that's the thing, is that It's just like, it is like reality. It's just not quite right. It's, it's extremely off putting, and so that's why it's, it's something I could still deal with. But I think there were things that made it worse where I would really have to withdraw, so like, if I was under a lot of stress and or, you know, social pressure, whatever it may have been, if I wasn't sleeping right, or something like, it would get to the point where it was terrifying, and I think just disorienting, kind of like I just you start to feel like nothing is real. Nothing exists. So like, why am I here, I guess, and it's just completely, like, existential, right? So in those moments, I would have to withdraw, like, I'd have to just, I don't know, like, be by myself and just recenter and stuff. And. And if I even could at the time, sometimes I couldn't. So yeah, it's very hard to explain. But, you know, maybe one day I'd go back to trying to understand it more fully. But, I mean, it's hard when there's not much out there, even on it, like there's, there's nothing anyone's really doing about it. I think maybe two years ago, I saw that there was some, like research being done somewhere on like how to treat it. But, you know, compared to everything else it, it's hardly talked about, sure,
Josh Lavine 35:34
so in your just personal Kristen land, yeah, what, what has helped and what? Yeah,
Kristen Oberly 35:49
um, yeah, that's a good question. I tried a lot of things. I tried all different kinds of things. I mean, there were times where I would try to get into, like, some kind of like physical, like, waking my body up in some way, you know, like how, especially with nines, like, one of the things that they can do to feel more kind of like awake is, is by doing something more physical, or whatever. Like, I think, like I had a headband or something on my or rubber band on my wrist, and I would just snap it, just to kind of try and get me to feel anything, but it, yeah, those things just never really worked. I think, honestly, the the only thing that worked was trying to reduce any kind of stress or triggers that would make it worse, which was just very hard and so, you know, sleeping regularly and stuff like that. But also, just like, trying not to fall down into the void of like this. This is like it. I think what made things worse is thinking that I was going to feel this way forever. So kind of keeping myself or my attention on other things, which is why inner work and dream work has been like life saving for me, because it's like, oh, you know, I can like these things are important. I'm important, and I don't need to go down into this spiral of like, this is how I'm gonna feel forever or something, if that makes sense.
Josh Lavine 37:28
Do you have an example of a dream that you had that helped you reconnect with your body or heart or mind or something
Kristen Oberly 37:39
like that? Um, there have, yeah, there have been several, I think the biggest dreams that have really helped me reconnect with, you know, my centers, and just especially my body and stuff, have been the ones where, when I'm interpreting them or thinking about them or talking about them, I get extremely like animated, like, things start to connect, and I'm just like, on the floor in tears, or I'm like, I was really angry in the dream. And it's actually this grief, this immense like amount of grief, I it's, it's like, I think letting the emotions in whichever dream, and that's why, like, I specific ones, you know, like they, I think the common theme with all of the ones that have helped me, because there just are so many that it's mainly like a really big emotion that I have just trapped somewhere like the other day. Okay, I'll give you an example, because this one's kind of silly, and so it won't get too suppressing. And I might. I'll probably talk about this, because this happened on the we were talking about self preservation and how it shows up in dreams. And so we have been, like, plagued with self preservation dreams now for like, the past three weeks from talking about it. And I had one where, basically, long story short, because I'm not gonna explain all of it, but I experienced something in life where, in like, waking life, that, like, as a social nine I have a very hard time asking people for help or even just showing that I'm struggling. Like, it's I don't like it's so unconscious that I don't even realize that I'm doing like, I'm not doing it, you know, like, I think I have to have it figured out. I And it's like, either two, there's two paths. It's either I suffer in silence and don't tell anyone about it and I just suffer, or I, like, just withdraw and I don't even give someone the opportunity. To see me suffering in silence or whatever. So this was, like, very unconscious. Didn't even know that I had these, like, needs to talk about or whatever, or express and ask for help. And someone saw it in me, like, hey, you need help right now, and I'm gonna help you out without me bringing it up, or, like, whatever, I was just, you know, gonna completely withdraw, and this person said, you know, I'm gonna help you. And it threw me off. And I wasn't affected by it when, when I talked to this person, or whatever, but I had a dream that night that was really big. And, like, the first part of it was, like, I just walked into my house and there was a guinea pig cage there. And I, I had guinea pigs throughout like, my entire life, up until, like two years ago. So they're, you know, I've been having this reoccurring theme in my dream of guinea pig cages, and they're always, like, really dirty, like, I haven't cleaned them in forever. And I walked past the cage, and it was so filthy. They had no food, no water, and, like, pretty much they were dying. And I went down to them and and I was like, basically, like, I remember writing like, Oh my God. I completely forgot that these things were here and they needed me, and I hoped that they would forgive me. And like, when I started thinking about guinea pigs, like, one of the stupid things that they do is that they'll squeal when they need something, like, it's so obnoxious, but they like, I need food right now, and they'll just start screaming. And when I had that thought of, like, oh, they ask for help, essentially, like, I just started bawling. It was at like, three in the morning, I woke up and I just started crying because it's like, oh my god. Like, I don't do that. And I, like, every fiber of my being does not allow me to ask for help and even show anyone that I need anything. And here are these, like stupid little potato figures, like screaming when they want food. And it's just like, you know, it was just one of those things that it affected me so much that just connecting with that need, and especially for a nine just all the different needs and things that I'm completely trying to push away. Dreams have been a way for me to like, for it to click, for it to resonate. I guess,
Josh Lavine 42:32
you know, it just really strikes me that something in you knew, and maybe early on, that what's the right way to put this? It's like you just sort of ceased to exist in a physical reality, like you sort of like checked out of it, you know, but, and so where you where you went something, and you knew that you had to go to, like, the deepest part of your unconscious to find like the threat of your aliveness and and it seems like, like even in that story, it's like a person, like, I imagine that actually happened, right? A person said, Kristen, you need help right now, and I'm going to help you. And that had almost no effect on you. But then you went to sleep that night, and the dream helps you process it. And then when you woke up in the middle of night, you were like, Oh, I get it. It's like, it's so interesting, like, the event, the event of life, just, was like, just, it just, it was like, passing through a fog. But then the unconscious world had this intensity for you that actually woke
Kristen Oberly 43:45
you up. Yes, yes, and that's what like when I'm kind of still letting that impact me. I'm sure I'll have a dream about it tonight, because that's actually like an extremely fascinating thing to think about, especially with nine being withdrawn my whole life, like, kind of living in this weird other world, imaginative kind of space that's just not this one. I think the also with the thing with nines of just kind of like not being held correctly. So it's like I'm kind of existing in this other world that feels better and safer and like I don't. I don't know if it has much to do with control. Like, maybe it's easier for me to control or something, but yeah, it's like, now I'm kind of able to connect with a more authentic real, like have more of an authentic relationship with that world, instead of it just being complete fantasy, you know? So, yeah, that's extremely interesting, and I'll probably be thinking about that for quite a while. Yeah.
Josh Lavine 45:00
You know, it's, it's almost like there are three worlds. There's, there's physical reality, there's the dream world, which are both quote, unquote real, and then there's this other place you go when you're kind of checked out, or in a in a moment of dissociation, or de personalization, or whatever, yeah, and that, that's kind of like in my interview with Xander, he talked about toggling on and off of of existing,
Kristen Oberly 45:32
oh yeah, yeah. His his interview was extremely helpful for me, even to just Oh. Really, it felt very similar of just experience, like you're either exposed or you're not, and I think just constantly being affected by things, it's just so much easier to be in a place that kind of doesn't exist that I've created, which is why I said, like there is some kind of aspect of control there, obviously, like I can control this, like, dissociated spot, but I think, like, you know, in thinking about depersonalization and all that other stuff, it's like I'm not in control, like, at all. It was like, it's just terrifying, like, I don't know, yeah, there are these strange spaces that I've been to emotionally or psychologically that just are completely out of my control. I think it's, it's interesting, you know, this is kind of reminding me of when I was, like, a lot younger, like, this was maybe like 10 or something. I remember one of my biggest fears, like, because I think someone had asked me, like, you know, what's your biggest fear? Just one of those questions. Just one of those questions. And I think, like, I couldn't really think of anything, but the one thing I thought of was, I used to play The Sims a lot. Do you know that game? Of course. Yeah, right, okay. And one of my biggest fears was like, what if I wasn't in control of my body? Like that? Just terrified me, thinking like I had no autonomy, essentially, that I would just be like walking through life, like witnessing myself, but not actually, like controlling what I was doing, like picking things up and talking to people like, but I had to, like, force. I was forced to watch it. I don't know, like, why I would think about that at 10, but it's one of those things where I ended up kind of living that fear of, kind of like, being in a body that I don't feel like I'm in in control of and, and then kind of having to toggle these spaces of of what I can control, what I can't, how things impact me, how they don't like, finding a healthy relationship with both or or whatever. Yeah, if that made any sense, I don't know if that makes sense.
Josh Lavine 48:06
Where my mind's going is. I'm just thinking about the your journey back to yourself. Yeah, and it feels like the the thing that the thing that did, it was following your that's where I would put this. It's, it's kind of like that thing in you that knew to go to your unconscious, like, I think it seems to me that you are genuinely inspired by dreams and the unconscious world. And even before the diagnosis, there was this fascination you held with a parallel reality that interfaced in some mysterious way with what most people were calling reality, but you were in touch with it. Have you ever seen the movie or the TV show? Avatar, The Last Airbender? Yeah. Okay, first of all, it's fucking great. Ever I'd some total masterpiece, and I could talk for hours about it, but it's but so Aang, the main character is this. Is this avatar. I really could actually go on here. But the point is, is that he, like, has, he has a connection to the spirit world. And he, when he meditates, he enters the spirit world, and his it's like his soul leaves his body, and he's there to meditate the state, but he's actually traversing the spirit world. And it's kind of like which, which has some super imposition on top of the real world. It's kind of like you're that, you know, you're kind of going in between these two worlds, you know, yeah,
Kristen Oberly 49:45
right. And I actually, like, when I was 1213, and I was experiencing these things, and I did not know anything about psychology at that point, like I didn't even know therapists. Existed like it was people at school who would say, Hey, I think, or friends or whatever would say, like, Hey, I think you need to get help. Like, my parents had no idea, but, um, the first thing I thought of was like, Oh, I can see ghosts and, and I could read minds and, like, all of this, like, kind of paranormal sort of things. And I started getting super into spirit worlds, because I think I had, like, I had to do a project or something with with Native Americans for school. And I remember, like, getting so super into it, because I'm, like, they had so many different names and explanations for the spirit world, and it's like, oh, that's where what I'm being exposed to, and I still have fascination with that. That's why, like dreams are kind of like and the way that specifically Carl Jung taught it is just this synthesis of different ideas and metaphors and stuff like that, of just spirit worlds and anthropology and culture and mythology, like, it's just all of this shoved into one and into you, essentially. So, yeah, I, I definitely can, like, that's, that's where, like, my heart goes, I think. And so having the diagnosis and having to deal with just doctors and psychiatrists and stuff, it was totally killing that part of me, like things could no longer be spirit, a spiritual experience. It was a symptom of an illness, sure. Yeah. So with, with a lot of you know, both Enneagram stuff and inner work, and also just with a lot of, like, Jungian work, it has made me kind of allowed me to have, like, a memory of, like, what I was going through and whatever, and kind of be gentler on myself, like whatever I was experiencing doesn't need to have a label and doesn't need to be like a diagnosable, diagnosable, like issue. It was just, it's something that happened to me, and it's a space that I can like the space then, kind of transformed into a different space now, and I can explore that space, you know, if that makes any sense, yeah, it
Josh Lavine 52:30
does. You know, it's kind of like if you had been born in a time where we were living in a pre modern society, and there, you know, like, tribal, early tribal cultures had a reverence for the mystery of life. And yeah, there was, like, there was like, the shaman or the medicine woman or something in in these tribes that had a connection with the the spirits, the quote, unquote, spirit world. And so I just wonder, if you'd been born centuries ago, that you would have just been recognized as like, oh yeah, she's got a connection. I
Kristen Oberly 53:03
honestly, like, especially during the time, like, when I realized, like, you know, maybe I shouldn't be on my medicine. I used to say things like, you know, the government just doesn't want me to have my powers back. And, like, did not make I like, no matter what I said, if it was like in in that kind of context,
Josh Lavine 53:32
no paranoia, yep. Don't see anything here.
Kristen Oberly 53:37
Yeah, if I want to go into like, you know, I could have been a witch. I could have been a shaman, whatever, like, No, you're just fucking crazy. That's where, that's basically the corner I trapped myself in with that. But now it's like, I got off my meds without even consulting my doctors because, because of that reason, like, I I couldn't or anything. I would say, would just they'd be like, Nope, you can't do that. So I got out on my own. I just stopped showing up.
Josh Lavine 54:09
I have an idea to segue into a totally different territory here, but I want to get really fine in a special way. So as a social nine, I'm cheating a little bit just because I know what social nine is. But like, I do you experience? Do you experience, actually, you kind of said this to me in our pre interview chat. But do you experience ever being uncomfortable saying things directly to people or having having, you know, being socially timid around, like using your forcefulness or power or something like that, in a way that would like be showing up in a way that would make people uncomfortable.
Kristen Oberly 54:51
Yeah. So there are, I guess, two different. Scenarios where the answer is yes, and then one where the answer is no, when it's people that I'm like, I don't really know like, so if it's like a doctor patient kind of thing, like, if I'm angry, like I would, I would typically express that anger to someone that I'm kind of like, like, I don't have a specific relationship with them, like, the on the social hierarchy, like, you know, like, our relationship is transactional, and I can, I'm able to, kind of, like, speak up for myself, or whatever. It's just like, how conscious am I of the needs I think, like, like, if I am conscious of the needs, I will speak up to, you know about it. But if I'm not, I have, like, no idea what I'm even, like, bothered about, and I won't speak it. You know, I won't speak up about it, I guess. But when it comes to friendships or relationships, it, it takes a lot for me to be able to, like, really, I guess, solidify my location, like, show where I'm at, mainly because I feel like, if I was to get angry and and say, like, here's where I'm at, and this is what I need. It would just cause chaos and destruction, like it would, it would destroy things. And the I would become unlikable, or, like that kind of Bermuda, like, I need to be liked kind of thing. So like, I can, I can be pushy, and, you know, cause conflict and stuff. When it's like, especially when I'm feeling like I'm being misunderstood, I can, you know, get someone to like, I can get angry and get them to try and understand me, or whatever. But when it's something like, Here, here's my need, and I can't, like, move from here on out. I can't adapt. Like, it's almost kind of asking someone to adapt to me, or something like that, or just no one adapts at all. It feels like the end of the world, like it feels like destruction. And so there have been times in my life where I have actually done that, and it's led to some of the best decisions in my life. So it's just very strange how that works out. But yeah, I think that's it's so situational to, I think, to answer that question. But um, yeah,
Josh Lavine 57:36
yeah, that's a pretty interesting distinction you made around like, if you're if it's quote, unquote, doctor patient relationship versus a friendship, and that itself is a social distinction, right? And so there's, like, a certain social situation in which you feel comfortable going or saying, revealing your location, or saying a thing that would make someone uncomfortable, but in a in a situation where those the status isn't as clear and the relationship isn't as clear, and you're the one who has habitually adapted more, there's a lot more murkiness, and it's harder for you to show up in that way. Yeah, yeah. And that all tracks, and I actually relate to that a lot as a also social Bermuda type, especially like as a coach. You know, I say things that people don't want to hear all the time as a coach, but in my friendships, it's a lot harder. And so that's just part of the reality I think, of being a social social media. But the reason I asked that question was because so I've experienced you on the receiving end of your dream shaman work. And so I had a dream that actually you were in. And yeah, and we don't have to get into the whole dream and everything, but I was pretty struck by how you had like, zero qualms about just, like, putting your finger on, like, the nerve, you know, and just being like, this is what I'm seeing this thing. And you're like, you're like, you would, you would listen to my interpretation of my own dream and be like, actually, no that because and then, you know, you're sort of educating me along the way, like you're you're interpreting the dream from the point of view of the dream ego. And the dream ego is actually not what you want to be listening to when you interpret a dream. It's just like, there's, there's something else to be to surface here. And so anyway, so there's these, there were, what I'm pointing to is the way that you just were, like, actually, no, this is the thing you want to look at. And some of those things were really uncomfortable, you know? I mean, it's a dream, and it's like, it's surfacing aspects of your unconscious that are, like, super, super buried in there, and they're not very pleasant to look at. You know, it's a painful experience oftentimes. Yeah, and I just think about, I like, that's a very powerful thing to have. It is a power, you know, you know what I mean, to to be able to surface that and then reveal it, and then put your finger on it, and then to, like, hold someone's attention in a spot that has an exposed nerve. And it is in contrast to what we think of stereotypically as social nine being nice.
Speaker 1 1:00:26
Yeah, I didn't think about that, yeah. And
Josh Lavine 1:00:29
so I find that interesting. It seems to me that like when you're in, when you're in your world, and we've used the word world in a number of different ways here, but what I mean is like when you're in your power, when you're when you're using, at least when I enter your world, like when we're talking about dreams, and it's like, this is your territory. You have a lot more comfort using your power and being really precise. And you wield it. You know you wield it comfortably. You wield it with a certain kind of mastery. And it's not demure, you know, it's not it's not shy, it's not withdrawn. And so I wonder if you could talk about that experience, or is it news to you, just that I'm saying this to you now.
Kristen Oberly 1:01:17
It, it's news and kind of not news. Well, first off, thank you. That does mean a lot to me. I think I knew I was pushy with dreams like that's definitely something I knew, because I can tell how uncomfortable people get being nine, body type, social, whatever. Um, I can really feel when people get on like I, when I hit something, they don't want me to uncover um. So I did know that there, there was that element. But like, yeah, there I, I didn't really put it together that it's, it's kind of like a power, if anything, I'm like, Oh, I might be, like, stepping over a boundary here, you know, and so there's a risk of of how someone may see me, but it's almost Like I the material and the world and like I can, I can see the soul of another person through their dreams more so than what they're giving me, like, just face to face, like, like their dream is screaming all of these things that they're not, you know, Like all of that feels more important to me, then, then to, you know, have a or establish a kind and typical relationship with, with a person. It's kind of like this. I guess maybe I'm hoping to to spark something in them. And so where I am like, you know, personality wise, social wise, status wise, whatever, like, it doesn't matter to me as much as it does to, like, get these people to hear themselves, maybe. And so if, if that kind of threatens the relationship, or, or someone doesn't understand me, or, you know, they see it as conflicting, or something like that, like, I, I guess I just don't care as much then, because then it's like, okay, well, then this isn't the work for you. And, you know, so it's, it's almost, yeah, I kind of forget that I'm even really typical Bermuda social time, I don't know,
Josh Lavine 1:03:45
wow. Well, that's pretty I mean, it's like a moment of freedom from that.
Unknown Speaker 1:03:49
Yeah,
Josh Lavine 1:03:50
yeah, yeah, yeah. I I think actually, there's a certain way I relate. I mean, not in dream territory, it's not my expertise, but in, like, in some coaching sessions, i i also forget, you know, it's like, I can, I can relate to the experience of just, I'm seeing something, and they're not seeing it, and now I'm naming it, and then I'm also and then they're like, trying to shake away from it. And I'm like, actually, no, we need to look at this. And then, you know, I mean, if enough, there's enough resistance. And I work with that too, but, but there's a certain way. It's like, I don't, well, yeah, I'm just relating. It's very interesting to me, the idea of, like, these moments of, it's a flow state, right? It's a kind of flow state where, yeah, where the typical self consciousness of your typology just is no longer exists for that moment. That's a
Kristen Oberly 1:04:46
good way to describe it. Yeah, so
Josh Lavine 1:04:49
um. Something else I want to ask you about is, um, so it's it's probably fair. To say that type nine. So in David's, in David's sundial view of the Enneagram, nine represents the kind of the noonday sun. It's kind of like the harmonious sunbeam that that touches everything you know, and, and, and I like that. But also what I experienced from you is, is a, on the one hand, like a social niceness and a kind of holding and just that, the feeling of harmony. But also underneath that is a kind of dark cauldron esque swirling like witchy vibe and and so I wonder what it's like. First of all, do you feel accurately seen by that comment, and what's it like for you to square those two? Or do you? Do you think about it? Yeah, I
Kristen Oberly 1:05:55
agree. I mean, like, I've always seen myself as pretty dark, and that's why, like, a lot of the nines that I talk to will have just like extremely dark inner worlds. It's that whole kind of, like anti positive, positive outlook thing, sure. Yeah. That
Josh Lavine 1:06:12
makes total sense to me. Yeah,
Kristen Oberly 1:06:14
yeah. I think I I kind of like, maybe just visually and just with the things I'm interested in tend to be a lot more darker, and I'm like, like, I just embrace that. I think mainly because I like it speaks somewhere to me that matters a lot more than other things I don't know, not like other bright stuff, because I'm sure there's tons of bright things that I'm interested in or exhibit or whatever. But what was the second question that you had? I don't know, oh, compared to the nine, like how nine might look? Yeah, I think, like the, I don't know really what to say about that, because, like, for me and my Enneagram journey, like I did not have much knowledge of the Enneagram, like, before I came to this group, so it's, it's almost like I didn't have much of a understanding or judgment or anything on any of the types. Like, if I remember, the only thing I didn't agree with with the nine was that the whole conflict avoidance thing, because I found myself with being a dark person, I'm also very angry, and yeah, like, I will cause conflict.
Josh Lavine 1:07:52
I've actually, I'm so glad you bring this up. I don't mean to interrupt. I just want to make one point, like in in online chats, you can be, you can bite, you know, like, I've seen it, it's and I find that interesting, too. Yeah. So anyway, keep going. Yeah, I
Kristen Oberly 1:08:11
am there. There is like, a fighting aspect to me, and that's why, when I, when I, like, first had the hit realization of, like, Oh, my God, I'm a nine. Then obviously my question was, okay, well, then conflict avoidant must mean something else. You know, then it has to be something else, because, and I I understood it in my, like, personal experience, as I will cause conflict if it means that I can get to an inner place of harmony, essentially like something feels out of line, someone's misunderstanding me, something like that. And so I will cause the conflict in order to get myself feeling at like, you know, being at another, at an equilibrium, or, so, you know, like, I need to bring myself back down because this person or this situation is upsetting me, and, yeah, so it's, it's that To me is like, I guess the whole inner peace kind of thing, like nine is always needing to, you know, needing peace or something is that I'm gonna cause conflict because this person's disturbing my inner peace
Josh Lavine 1:09:31
is that. Is that true? I mean, I imagine there's some distinction. I brought up the online thing, which I've seen, but that's also a place without body, and I wonder if it's different when you're in the same room with someone,
Kristen Oberly 1:09:43
yeah, yeah, online. Of course, it's a lot easier. Plus two, I think I just have that whole like, if a person saying something that just like, isn't like, I don't agree with or. Um, I can kind of catch them on something, you know, I'll, I'll say it, but I'll still do it like, I think I do it in a nice kind of way at first, but it starts to derail at some point. Yeah, I think in person, I get kind of like the the Bermuda swirl happens in person, where I'll sit and I'll start to feel the anger from something like something needs to be addressed, something doesn't feel right. And I will just kind of go back and forth on, how do I feel about this person? What should I do about it? Is it even worth doing anything about? Like, yeah, like, I'm not in contact, like, initially, of what the right thing is to do, so I just kind of go on this, like, weird spinning and inside of what to do, and almost like observing every outcome that could possibly happen. Like, if I did this, it would go down this path, and if I did that, it would go down this path. So like, which one do I want to choose, and how do I want this person to see me after what I say and how I phrase it and all that stuff. And should I be considering this person and what they're going through, and so am I just, like, getting upset because of of something I'm not understanding? Like, you know, that whole thing? So in person, it's very still until I, like, even figure out what I'm supposed to do about it all.
Josh Lavine 1:11:41
That's excellent. And it actually, it brings up an interesting point of contrast to you being a nine Bermuda and me being a three Bermuda, like the way that my Bermuda swirl, we talked about this a little bit in our pre interview chat, but, like, let me just repeat some of the things you said, so I get it. So your Bermuda swirl, it's like something arises you like, like an anger or like a sense of like an impulse to do something in relation to like a person or a situation, and in whether it's a split second or some a larger amount of time goes by, the Bermuda swirl is what takes that solid impulse, and then dissolves it into a fog, and all of a sudden it's not clear anymore what you want to do and where, if that was important to you at all, and that that feels to me like it has a really different quality from the way that I experienced Bermuda swirl. I mean, I relate to that and to some degree. But, like, I'll just give you the example that I gave last time. So, like, my most recent Bermuda swirl was, I was, you know, I have, I've been really exploring, like, an issue around, like, scarcity with money. And I had, like, a big scarcity, like a money scarcity, like scare about a month or so ago. And so I have all these things that are going on in my life. I have, like, my coaching practice, where I coach people and mostly, like founders and executives and stuff. And then I'm also, like building this Enneagram school and have this podcast, and I would like to write a book. These are like, the anchor points of my at the very least, professional life, and how this money scarcity thing happen. And then I was like, sick in a hotel room in Phoenix because I was there for a friend's bachelor party. And then all of a sudden, just was like, Wait a minute. Like, that's not what I'm supposed to do. I'm supposed to I need money now, and I'm supposed to finish the project that I started 10 years ago around teaching people how to play piano online. And so I launched zero to piano.com I wrote 1000s of words for this, literally, in a fever, a feverish word sprint. I just produced all this content. And it's like, the feeling the Bermuda swirl is like, I forgot who I am. It's and it's from the point of view of image and identity, right? It's like, and I guess it started from the scarcity thing. But if there's a sense of like, I'm the person that I'm being right now is not the person that I'm supposed to be and I need and to be my full self, to maximize my potential, whatever I need to do this other thing. And all of a sudden my entire life force gets focused into this project. And then four days later, I wake up and I'm like, What am I doing? Like, I'm not. I'm not doing this. I'm not this is not what I care about. I'm not doing this. And it was like a friend of mine woke me up with a really friend of mine, who's an eight he asked me, was like, are you doing this because you just, like, need money, or is this, like, do you want this to be part of your legacy? And I was just like, Whoa. That question really hit me, and it kind of brought me back home to who I am. But. There's something really categorically different about that, and the way you experienced your Bermuda swirl from a body place versus image place, right?
Kristen Oberly 1:15:09
Yeah, yeah. Because when you said that, it felt way more assertive than my Bermuda swirl. Yeah, that it's just like, you know, kind of action doing whatever that for me, my swirls will, will at least kind of take place more in a withdrawing, like, I don't know, like, just a complete, I don't know what I'm doing and what I'm supposed to do and and how I feel about this and all that, like, it's and sometimes that has to do with action. Like, you know, I mentioned before about like art, that for me, art has been an entire Bermuda swirl, that it's like, I don't know what exactly my style is. I don't know what I want to like, you know, hone in on really. Like, I do everything. I've done so many different projects. I've done children's books, I've done comic books, I've done, like portraits and like obscure Fine Art kind of shit, like, I've done kind of everything and and on, on one hand, that's very, like, helpful, because it's like, wow, I can kind of do a lot of these. Yeah, I have, like, a, you know, jack of all trades, whatever. But again, like, it's just not like, Well, where am I just gonna kind of swirl around with all different art projects my whole life? Or am I gonna really dedicate myself to one thing and allow that to, like, really be me, even if it's like a theme or something. So, yeah, yeah.
Josh Lavine 1:16:45
Is there an angst about that? Like, does i somewhere in you, a desire to pick a lane?
Kristen Oberly 1:16:54
I think so. I think there always has, like, there's especially going to art school and seeing everyone else in a lane. I I'm like, I watch everyone else kind of have their thing, and it's so distinct, like, you go in, you know, into a room, and if it's one specific person's stuff, it's like, yep, that's that person's art. And some people have said, you know, you have a style Kristen, but like, I don't see it. And so it is like, I think that's one of the first responses I had to finding out I was a Bermuda is like, I want to actually, like, hone in on something specific with art. And I've noticed that majority of my art is like, some kind of archetypal, other worldly, spirit realm, kind of vibe. And so I kind of started these drawings of the tri fixes were kind of my first like, I'm going to hone in on on this style and this type of art. And I think, like, it's a good enough thing that, like, it's, it can cover so much material, like mythology and that spirit world type of, you know, paranormal and, like, those kinds of things. And they're very social, self press things can, like, I can do a lot with that, but also still, like, that's, that's what I'd want to do, you know?
Josh Lavine 1:18:23
And, or, yeah, what happens when you, when you do that, when you the image in my head is, it's like, it's like the swirls going in, and then you sort of create a pathway for it to channel itself in a particular direction.
Kristen Oberly 1:18:42
Yeah, it. I think for me, it kind of feels relieving, because it is sort of like finding a location, and it also like it, it makes me excited, because it's like, wow, why have I just spent all this time kind of doing this other shit that sort of didn't mean anything or whatever. Like, of course, it meant something, like, I don't have regret, like it was still building skill and experience and whatever. But it's kind of just like, I always maybe this is too a Bermuda swirl thing, or maybe it's just me, but like, I always feel like I'm kind of a step or two or three behind everyone else, because it takes a while for me to, like, really pick or choose my location, or kind of, like, demand it to be somewhere, right? So I think it's kind of a relief, but also at the same time, like, grief, like, wow, where was this? My my whole life, like I could have been way farther ahead if I had chosen this location years ago.
Josh Lavine 1:19:46
You know what's in my head about this conversation I'm relating to what you're saying as a Bermuda type, but I also I've experienced before a like if I try to, if I try to force myself into. The lane, then the swirl backlashes. It has its own. It has its own, like, intelligence in a certain way. It's kind of like, it's kind of like It knows, it knows when it's like, Nope, that's not quite right. Like, like, chose wrong. You chose the wrong lane or, or I didn't want to be contained just yet, and you tried, you know that that kind of thing. And I mean, I've, I've had, I've written about this on my website, but like, I've had, I've had dozens of episodes where, for periods of days or weeks at a time, I thought I was supposed to be like a rapper or like, or a jazz piano player, or a politician, or any num, any number of these things where I mean and, and if you talk to me in that moment, I was like, I was filled with unknowing, just a certainty, you know, like, just that I'm supposed to do this. Yeah, I'd wake up later and be like, Oh no, that's not, nope. Well,
Kristen Oberly 1:21:01
yeah, and I've had that too. I think that's why, like, with at least the art thing, it feels more solid to me, but I can absolutely relate to what you're saying. Like, there. There have been so many times where, um, which and which is what sucks too, because it's like, I just don't have, like, the money or time for any of the things I I've, like, thought I was going to be and actually, this is fairly fresh, that just within the past couple of months, because I'm constantly in that swirl mode of just, like, because I don't have, like, a career, I I work at a greenhouse. It's it's a full time job. It's, like, you know, anybody's job kind of thing. And those are the kinds of jobs I've always had, and I've done art on the side, and I think it's the social thing too. Of like, anytime someone would ask me, you know, like, oh, what you're what are you doing? And something, you know, I don't know, at a social event or something, and I say, Oh, I work at a greenhouse. I always have to say, like, oh, but, you know, I do art on the side, because everyone knows I have an art degree. And so it's like, to me, I feel the pain of like, I just work at a greenhouse, and I don't do anything with my degree, like, that kind of thing. And so I've been constantly swirling of, like, I have to do something that, like, says I'm established in some kind of way, like I have this career and, like, whatever, and it's just within the past couple of months, it was a combination of a lot of dreams. I do tarot readings and stuff. So it was a combination of that, a combination of some, like, kinesthetic work that I was doing and whatever that I just kind of hit this spot of like, I'm done, like I'm done trying to swirl around, like, not being okay with where I am right now. And it was just this weird resonance. And I know to some people that might like, you know, they have no idea what I'm talking about or something, but like to stop the swirl. Like, not even to just find a location to stop the swirl, but just to stop the swirl of being like, I'm like, I'm just not going to try to see myself anywhere I am other than right here. Like, was huge for me and sin, and it was kind of a felt like knowing it was a deep inner knowing of just like whatever I am meant to do, I haven't encountered it yet, like it's, it's not anything that I've thought of within the past couple of months. Because within the past couple of months, I was like, Oh, I could be this, I could be that. I can so I kind of just let that happen, and it's almost like that's incredibly freeing, like I feel like I'm actually enjoying the things I'm doing, like I go to work, and even though it's a greenhouse, like I'm not throwing this weird, like hidden layer of judgment on myself. And when I'm doing art, or I'm picking up projects or whatever. It's not like an excuse, like this is gonna get me somewhere, someone someday, or something, like, I'm just enjoying it, I guess. And, and I didn't realize, like, that would be a way to stop the swirl too, of just like, hey, I don't I don't need to swirl. Whatever is gonna happen will happen, and I'll figure out when I need to figure it out. Yeah,
Josh Lavine 1:24:24
wow, that's a beautiful way to think of it. And I couldn't agree more, although it's, you know, it's, it's interesting, because I think that for Bermuda types, there's something really powerful about just well meaning yourself where you're at, and allowing something to come through you, without trying to force it in to any or without trying to put a picture frame on it, or trying to have it be a choice, you know, like there's like, to will it into a direction or something, but to let it unfold. Yeah. Yeah. And it also strikes me that the the need to choose in some kind of way, is itself part of the Bermuda. It's like a tentacle of the swirl, you know, in some kind of way. Yeah. Anyway, so that's wonderful. It sounds like you've, like, been kind of dropping into a different kind of freedom around the just kind of, what's the right way to put it, not trying to contain the sort just like being, just being with it and letting, letting what wants to arise come through you. Yeah, I
Kristen Oberly 1:25:30
think it's, it's like a, I'm trying to be more curious and less like judgmental, and less like controlling and less swirly. Yeah, it's just like a different relationship with just being curious about my life and just what I'm doing and enjoying what I'm doing. And I think like putting more value on my inner world because of just so many years of either feeling like I've betrayed it or not even acknowledging it, like I had nightmares for years, like, you know, just because it was almost like my unconscious was incredibly pissed about where I was going, Yeah, and I didn't, yeah, I didn't listen to it. So it's like, I'm kind of spending, spending that time, re establishing that relationship and and not putting so much of, like the the pressure on myself to have things figured out, and just kind of trusting that process. Yeah, it's a lot. It's very freeing. Yeah,
Josh Lavine 1:26:37
wow. Well, that's excellent. Thank you. You're welcome, so I'm noticing the time, and yeah, I'm wondering how you're feeling and what this has been like for you. And if there's anything that we haven't talked about that you want to make sure
Kristen Oberly 1:26:54
we mention, yeah, no, this was very cool, like, very fun for me, I think, like, I don't often really get to hear or take in or be impacted by, like, other people's view on my life, and I don't really talk about these things in general, like, I think we might have, we might have talked about this on the pre call or whatever. But like, as a social type, you kind of want to present things in a way that is, and I guess with Bermuda like, that's comfortable for everyone, and it's kind of like I'm always taking the control over a conversation and how I'm having people perceive me and whatever. And this felt very like there's, there's another thing that I can be impacted by, like I value your opinion and insights on on my experience, and so I haven't thought of some of the things that you've brought up. And I guarantee you I'll have a dream about it, and I'll let you know.
Josh Lavine 1:28:03
Well, that sounds great. I'm looking forward to that conversation. Yeah, cool. Well, thank you for doing this. I really appreciate
Kristen Oberly 1:28:12
it. Yeah, thank you. This
Josh Lavine 1:28:13
is fun. Cool. Okay, you
