Courtney Smith 0:00
Part of why we don't want to take agency is because it's like, I have a friend who says, like, none of the credit, none of the blame, which I think is like, very six, like, if I get too far out in front of you, it's true that I may get credit and I may get to shape things, but I also risk being held accountable, so I kind of compromise on I'm never going to get what I want, but I'm never going to be the one then that like is responsible for anything bad that happens, because I was never in charge to begin with. Welcome
Josh Lavine 0:39
to another episode of what it's like to be you. I am Joshua Lyon, your host today. My guest is Courtney Smith. Courtney is a social self, Pres six, wing 5631, try fix. She is a mom, a coach, consultant, facilitator of women's groups, a reproductive justice activist, and previously Yale Law School and McKinsey consultant, among many other things, which we discuss in this interview. People in our community know who she is. She has been on a couple of episodes of The Big hormone Enneagram, where she has actually her one of her earlier series of episodes on object relations is one of the most popular and groundbreaking episodes that they've ever done, and her thinking on object relations has brought a lot of fresh insight and juicy material to our community. This is the second interview that I did with Courtney. The first one, there was something that we aren't going to be talking about. We're referring to it as the mascara incident, and so we are publishing that one as a audio only podcast because it is so good, but the video, unfortunately is not available. This second interview we did is on interview as well as on audio, and it's really, really good. This one's a little bit more focused on her biography and her life story as a six. The last one was a little bit getting more into just exploring her real time experience of being an attachment type in the mental center. One thing this conversation really foregrounded for me was the very difficult inner splits that sixes have around being, wanting to be aligned within or participating within a system and also rebelling against that system. I think Courtney's life is a really good example of that, and she's very good at explaining kind of what that ambivalence was like at different phases of her life, which we explore from the point of view of her professional life. Courtney is about the most articulate person that I've ever heard, talking about Six's relationship with authority and what her experience of being an attachment type in the mental center is she is, in a good way, ruthless about cutting to what is really going on and revealing the kind of juicy, embarrassing truths at the bottom of our type structure. I was like, personally struck and hit by some of the things that she was revealing and describing about type six from the point of view of my own six picks. So this was a really, really good and I think, useful, instructive conversation. So I hope you enjoy and please welcome my friend Courtney. So I was I listened to the recording that we did the mascara incident,
Courtney Smith 3:21
I'm wearing no makeup.
Josh Lavine 3:30
That's funny. Yeah, we'll just mess up
Courtney Smith 3:36
the other direction. Actually,
Josh Lavine 3:41
I should, yeah, you should really, okay, yeah, yeah, we'll just, we'll leave it like this, yeah,
Courtney Smith 3:49
for sure, you should super messy,
Josh Lavine 3:57
interesting, same say more, because let's see it's good, okay, I like it. Okay,
Courtney Smith 4:06
totally different person. And now you're like, I'm sorry, but like, you should 100% wear your hair that way.
Josh Lavine 4:15
Okay, okay, I have, like, a complicated reaction to that. But sure, okay. Speaking of Persona work, I back. Yeah, interesting. Okay, we'll leave it like this for now. Okay, so where you know you go, yeah, I was listening to the mascara incident. Yeah, which, which was which? The content was so good. It was so good. And I and I was thinking, I'll send it to you so you can listen to it. But I was thinking that I might actually, if you're willing, release it as an audio as like episode A, and then this, potentially is B with with this one has video that one doesn't Okay. Um, I'm fine with that, but yeah, I mean it was just, it was, like, really valuable stuff, and it was kind of, I mean, it was really exploratory, just in terms of your real time experience of being a six, and also your recent we talked about Alexander Technique and conscious leadership group, and you missed typing as one, and then your relationship with now six and all that stuff. So I was thinking today that it would be interesting. And actually, I am, I am just from a sincere place, curious about this, like your actual life story. So kind of approach this more like a biography. Okay, you down with that? Yeah, that's fine. Okay, so I guess I'm curious maybe to start, what's Do you have? Do you have? Do you hold a sense of your kind of life trajectory from the point of view of being a six or is that a
Courtney Smith 5:58
I mean, I think I could talk about it that way. It, you know, it's one of those things where you're like, living your life, you're just doing your life, and maybe the Enneagram is like this generally, and then you like, look backward at the narrative, like, oh, what's the narrative? I can see what the theme was. I can see what the arc was. And so I can talk about it that way, but if it's not what it was in the moment, it wasn't my experience as I was doing my thing, if that makes sense, I was just living my life,
Josh Lavine 6:33
Right? Yeah,
Courtney Smith 6:36
I do think it is a move toward sourcing an internal sense of stability, yeah, and and orientation and guidance,
Josh Lavine 6:53
yeah, so you were your professional trajectory is probably a good way to start, because you went to law school, and after that, you went you worked at McKinsey, which is a consulting company, and I'm curious about your decision, like, how have you navigated, if you could tell it this way, like the story of it. How have you navigated your major life choices to do this or that thing? The
Courtney Smith 7:25
background would be like, I grew up in the Midwest. I grew up in a pretty traditional conservative family. All of the people in my family are doctors or lawyers, every single of them, okay, and I got a debate scholarship in college. I majored in Mathematical economics, so my background is pretty structured, analytical ways of being or ways of orienting to the world and professional safe institution based career choices and very much a culture of, you know, working hard, merit based, yeah, all that kind of stuff, sure. Okay, so, and I'm a high achiever, so I did all of that and went to law school,
Josh Lavine 8:31
and high achiever just to, not to be whatever. But you went to Yale Law School, right? Which is a, probably,
Courtney Smith 8:37
it's a good one. Yeah,
Josh Lavine 8:39
it's a good one. Okay, go on.
Courtney Smith 8:43
And for me, there was a moment of realization there that the actual activities of being a lawyer I did not like and actually there was a lot of sadness about it, because it felt like, actually, it would be a lot easier if I did like them, sure, and it would just, I could get on the program and just do asked. But there was this sort of nagging. It just felt kind of empty to me. Yeah, and pointless, and this is a joke. And
Josh Lavine 9:21
was this one of the Was this the first time or one of the first major times you had this experience of incongruence between what you were setting out to do and the feeling inside about it? I
Courtney Smith 9:32
don't think so. I um, it's interesting to tell it from like an Enneagram perspective versus a gendered perspective. Sure. You know, I majored in Mathematical economics, but I minored in women's studies. And so I did have this very bifurcated experience in college where I was the only woman in my major, all of my classes on my major, and then I would take these other classes where there were no men. Sure. Yeah, the approach, in terms of how you think about the world, like could not be more different. And I think I was dissatisfied with both of them, but couldn't figure out a way to integrate them. Where was college I went to Wake Forest in the south, which not a good fit for me, but sure,
Josh Lavine 10:21
okay, I was just wondering about the, like, what the culture was like on campus. Maybe it's not that relevant. I mean, if it is, then maybe we could talk about a little bit.
Courtney Smith 10:31
But, I mean, I think my perspective on that is, I grew up in Nebraska, and I had a moment in when I was, like, eight or nine, when, like, I still, I, like, walk down the stairs, and I've been reading, like, bizarre, like, Did I tell this story to your bizarrely, it was reading a biography of Helen Keller, okay? And I think she went to Radcliffe or something like that. And I walked down the stairs, and I, like, looked to my mom, and I was like, I want you to know I'm not staying here.
Josh Lavine 10:59
You were sorry, nine, eight or nine.
Okay, the cutest thing ever. Okay, go on.
Courtney Smith 11:12
And so for me, like a part of my college story is there was a boyfriend, but also it was, like, I just wanted to get out of Nebraska and, and I think that's very six, actually too. Is I just want it out, and it I didn't actually like give that much thought to, but where do you want to go toward?
Josh Lavine 11:30
Okay, so can you say, what's the texture? Why is that six to you?
Courtney Smith 11:33
Well, because it's like, it's reacting to this isn't working for me. But I don't have the agency to actually figure out what I do want. All I know is not this. All I know is this is upsetting me. This is me, and this is why I think, like sixes, stay in relationships too long and stay in jobs too long. Is because they're dissatisfied, but they can't figure out the alternative, okay? And and there's no pull of an alternative kind of like staking a claim to like, but this is what I want to move toward, as opposed to just like, to reacting to the external circumstances in front of us.
Josh Lavine 12:12
Yeah, and to put some of my own language on it, I guess what I'm sensing is it's like, if you're six and your inner universe is populated with all of the guideposts that other people have put there that you've absorbed. And it's not really working. None of them are really working for you. They're the muscle of starting to plant your own guideposts or expand beyond the territory that you've been shown is not well developed. And so the sense of, so that's the sense of, this isn't working for me. I don't know what would, but I'm rebelling against this, whatever this is, yeah.
Courtney Smith 12:56
And like, I mean, you see that in that, like, the phobic, counter phobic stuff around the six right, like the rebel or the anti authoritarian, is still authority oriented and that they're pushing against, right? That's right,
Josh Lavine 13:09
it's a good point.
Courtney Smith 13:11
And so, so it's, it's, you're still orienting to the guideposts. You're just orienting and your refusal to participate in it,
Josh Lavine 13:20
yeah. So even your your choice of major and minor is is fascinating. From this point of view. It's like your major is this. You told me, if I'm right about this, I don't know, but it's like your major Mathematical economics. I mean, first of all, it's just it is taking advantage of something that's genuinely true of you, which is that you have this very which is that you have this very powerful analytical brain. Also, it is, in a certain way, maybe an act of defiance to be the only woman in that major at the time. And then also the ambivalence of, well, is this, what do I do about that, and then, and then taking these classes in women's studies where you're experiencing literally the opposite. And there's probably some one fixed stuff in there too, but yeah, was there? Can you texturize that?
Courtney Smith 14:12
I mean, it's funny to think about it. And you know, so there is, as you say, there is a truth about me that I like rigor, I like models. I like precision. I like, yeah, being analytical and Mathematical economics is a lot of modeling. It's a lot of like, abstract reasoning, like out of you know, like, how can we describe what's happening in the real world in a model? Yeah, and then be predictive about the real world based on our model. And so then every time the model doesn't work because it doesn't accurately describe reality, it's like, okay, well, is the model right? Does the model need to be changed, or is reality fucked up? And actually, the model is the right thing, and people aren't just. Not doing what they're supposed to be doing. Like, there's that kind of, like, yeah, like, that sort of way of approaching the world. And there's a certainty to that. There's a simplicity, like a stripped down simplicity to it that's really appealing to me. There's a real focus, especially in Mathematical economics on applied decision making. It's like math in real life. Yeah, all of that is true about me, and there's a lot that it can't speak to and leaves out or glosses over as unimportant, because if it can't describe it, then it must not be important. I
Josh Lavine 15:45
could get on a whole soapbox about this, but I'll restrain myself. Well said.
Courtney Smith 15:48
And so, you know that helps the position of I'm attracted to this. I can see the world through this lens. Yet there's a lot in my experience, my living experience of being like an 18 year old woman, like going to frat parties and being treated a certain way in classes, that is not being captured. My experience is not captured in these models.
Josh Lavine 16:16
Oh, I see. Okay. And that was your lived sincere in the moment, questioning experience, yeah, at that time, yeah, yeah, yeah, amazing. Okay, um,
Courtney Smith 16:28
and, and so that kind of caused this, you know, like in a very six way, like 180 Okay, well, I'm gonna do the exact opposite of this in these other courses and see what's there. Yeah, and wanting to integrate them, but not really knowing how, and not really how to model for how you might do that.
Josh Lavine 16:56
Yeah. So there's these polarities you're kind of navigating. There's qualitative and quantitative, there's men and women and different gender roles and dynamics. There's the way that it all stitches together in a giant social self pres kind of embrace and and so there you are, taking all these classes. And did you choose to go to law school right after college?
Courtney Smith 17:16
Yeah, I took a year off, but you might as well say, okay, yeah, yeah. All right. I got in and I deferred and I and then I showed up at Yale, got
Josh Lavine 17:25
it and,
Courtney Smith 17:26
and it was a very similar Go ahead, your
Josh Lavine 17:32
intention, I guess I'm just trying to lay this foundation of, like, what your kind of motivational structure was, or to the extent that you were aware of
Courtney Smith 17:40
it, well, I was, like, trying to have it both ways, where it was like, I was trying to be high achieving. I was trying to do things that were socially appropriate. I was trying to do things that like were not too far off the beaten path. And that kind of lit up that analytical component of my that's part of me, right. And I mean, and that's what I say when I, like, in law school, this like, it would have just been easier if all of me, kind of,
Josh Lavine 18:21
yes, we're coherent with that. I could relate to that I understand.
Courtney Smith 18:25
But so that's what I was trying to do. And then, like, the physicality of my own experience kept getting in the way.
Josh Lavine 18:37
Uh huh, the physicality meaning, like, this somatic uprising of realizing it's not good. It's not sitting right, yeah, yeah,
Courtney Smith 18:44
yeah. And so. And it would have been easier to to have not had that, or to be able to mask over it or deny it or whatever, but I there's just something in me that can't do that.
Josh Lavine 19:03
Yeah, okay, so I know we're looking at this in kind of broad contours of your phases of life, but so
Courtney Smith 19:11
anyway, so that so lost, that's why I went to McKinsey instead of continuing to be a lawyer. Is, I guess I see, okay, you can see there, even in that choice, like McKinsey is, like, the rebellious act, like, Give me a break,
Josh Lavine 19:26
meaning, just to be really quick, you're making fun of yourself for choosing McKinsey as a an active rebellion, right? Because McKinsey is actually a very safe, well established, high performing consulting firm. That's like, basically the number one consulting firm in the world, right? Yeah, okay, I get it. Okay, it's pretty funny. Yeah, really funny. It's
Courtney Smith 19:49
even funny, really, when you, like, think of my family, like my grandfather, who was just like, prominent politician in Kansas. I mean, he was just like, furious, like, I mean, I'm looking up this. Me. Kinsey thing, like, in the list of, like, law firms, and I don't see it anywhere, like, I don't understand how you could go to a place that likes not listed. And he just could not handle that. I was going to this place he'd never heard of, which is hilarious.
Josh Lavine 20:18
Yeah, it is interesting, yeah. But that was
Courtney Smith 20:21
the soup I was coming from. And so then I started at McKinsey, like a week after 911
Josh Lavine 20:33
Okay, wow, okay,
Courtney Smith 20:37
and I I mean, this is like a recurring theme, which is like I liked it in concept, I liked the tools, I liked the approach, but then the what it felt like in real life was disconcerting to me.
Josh Lavine 20:58
I see, okay, you on our last call. You making fun of yourself about this because you were like, some of the feedback that you got at McKinsey was something to the effect of, wow, Courtney, I've never seen anybody basically fundamentally disagree with the way they were doing things. And also work as hard as you're working to play ball and be inside the lines and do everything exactly the way it's supposed to be
Courtney Smith 21:25
done. Yeah, the loyal skeptic in
Josh Lavine 21:26
Yes, practice, practice, right? How long were you at McKinsey?
Courtney Smith 21:32
I was there for a little over two years, and then I had a client, um, like a big media conglomerate that I worked for there, and I did a project for them, and then I went in house and led the implementation of that project, and then led a bunch of other projects. It was a time when there was, like, a lot of consolidation within the media industry, and newspapers and magazines were collapsing. And so I did really big projects to, how do you restructure your organization in order to deal with these changing external circumstances? And so I did that for so it's, again, it's like this analytical approach, but very much tied to, yeah, but there are human beings that are going to be impacted by the like, when you say like, when you consolidate this business, what you really mean is, we're firing people. And so what's that going to look like? Who's getting fired? How are you going to do that gently? How are you going to do that? Consistent with your values. Is this really what you want to do? That sort of bridge? I mean, I think that's a recurring theme for me, is,
Josh Lavine 22:50
sounds like it, yeah, the live thing, yeah,
Courtney Smith 22:53
very focused on what. But what does this mean, and when you land it, and how do you, how do you bridge that?
Josh Lavine 22:59
Yeah, yeah, I would. I want to unpack that more, because that's that's super rich and, and I agree it seems to be a really deep underlying thread. But I want to come back real quick to this thing at McKinsey, and because I think it's just, it's such a it's such a classic six and even just attachment thing right to be playing ball, feeling this inner, congruent, incongruence. And what was that? What's that like? Or can you describe the inner sense of like, what motivates you to just keep working as hard as you were working and doing everything, dotting all your eyes, crossing all your T's, according to the McKinsey way, while not really agreeing with it. What's, what's that like?
Courtney Smith 23:50
I mean, so first,
Josh Lavine 23:52
and do I have it right? Am I characterizing it? Yeah, that's right. It's a caricature. Okay, yeah.
Courtney Smith 23:56
I mean, and this is something high in the low side of six, right? Like, on the one hand, like, I'm not a three, I can't ignore this. Like, I can't, like, flatten my emotional reactivity, yeah, yeah. And so this shit is bothering me.
Josh Lavine 24:17
Are you showing it at work? Yeah, that's the thing. That's the difference right between three and yeah. Okay,
Courtney Smith 24:27
so, so there is an upside to that, right, that if it gets like, actually listened to and acted on, it will, it will force coherence. It will force expression of self in a way that I think is really beautiful.
Josh Lavine 24:46
Coherence, internal, your coherence, not systemic coherence, necessarily, or both, your
Courtney Smith 24:52
external way of being in the world is matching your inner experience of the world. Yeah,
Josh Lavine 24:58
I see. Okay, yeah,
Courtney Smith 25:03
because it's can't be ignored. It just gets louder. Yeah, and even when you try to ignore it, that has its own cost around other kinds of reactivity that then people are also picking up on. So it it's such a pain in the ass, like, as a sex to, like, have that part of you, and you get a lot of feedback that it's really annoying to be around. But there is, if it's listened to, there's always a truth and the complaint, and so, yeah, anyway, so that's one thing I would say about it, and that
Josh Lavine 25:46
there seems to be something profound in this phrase, if it's listened to and is like, what's what's underneath or around that what's who's listening? And who are you hoping to listen if
Courtney Smith 26:00
the sixth themselves is listening to it like, Oh,
Josh Lavine 26:04
I see. Okay, what's, what's, what's
Courtney Smith 26:06
the what I'm not just venting here. I'm not just like annoyed, like I'm not just noticing inconsistency and bothered by it and hypocrisy. There's a truth and what I'm trying to say, and that truth should lead me somewhere. I should show up differently. I should do something different because of what I'm picking up on. And am I willing to actually discern what that kernel of truth is and actually act upon it?
Josh Lavine 26:39
I'm check, I'm hearing you, and I'm sitting with a question. That's it, for me, it's kind of like,
yeah, what I what I'm wondering and kind of struck by is this sense of like I'm showing people that I'm frustrated about something, that something's not quite right because I'm noticing inconsistencies. I think we're right here to point out that it's a this is a different strategy than type three. Type three tends not to show as I've worked in corporate settings before, where I was extremely frustrated. I showed it to a couple of people, but it was not like it in most meetings. I was just running them and doing my thing. But there's this, there's, there's sort of this hope or agenda. It seems in the showing your like, the truth of your insides, the incongruence, the frustration you're experiencing, which is which, the way you're framing it is like, if I if I'm listening to myself, then it'll cause me to change, to align myself to something that I could actually like, this thing that I'm actually sensing that is being incongruent with my external environment. That thing, it would cause me to change to align with it. But the the trap that sixes get into is staying in a situation that doesn't fit and then just showing their reactivity and being frustrated under the hope that what said the external environment changes that? No,
Courtney Smith 28:24
it's, I guess my perspective would be, because sixes don't believe in their fundamental agency to shape reality.
Josh Lavine 28:31
There you go. Yeah, right. Yeah.
Courtney Smith 28:41
It's gotta, like, there's nothing I can do about this. I have no choice. I wish someone else would listen to me so that they could fix it, if only they would do something different, like, it's got there's a an assumption of, I'm seeing something that's important, but I don't have sufficient capacity to be the one to shape or influence reality based on what I'm seeing.
Josh Lavine 29:08
And this goes back to some of the object relations stuff, and particularly some of your formulations around object relations, the attachment to the protective or guiding function or something. There's like a maybe my words for it, I'd like for you to correct it if it doesn't feel but it's like there's a, there's a fundamental outsourcing of that potency that can change my environment, that can set, set and change rules around here. Yeah. And so given that lack of potency. It's like, all I, all I have is to was about to use the word throw a tantrum, which I just did, but it's like, that's all I have. That's that's the only thing I can do so that somebody hopefully listens, but I can see how it's. Can see how that actually is the trap, right? Because it's like, on one level, it feels good to throw the tantrum or to express myself, because it is actually me listening to my inner self and expressing that. But also it is still in the paradigm of, I don't have the power to do anything about this. Yeah,
Courtney Smith 30:16
and I think it's not like, do I doubt my own capability. It's also, even if I trust my own capability, there is still part of me that I'm not willing to risk losing external the external authorities, Alliance.
Josh Lavine 30:40
There you go, yeah, yes, yeah, the external authority at in a place like McKinsey being
Courtney Smith 30:46
whether it's the institution or whether it's your family or whether it's your partner or your community. But there's the sense of, I may know what I need to do, or I may know what needs to happen, but if, if I do it alone, I risk, I need you to come along with me,
Josh Lavine 31:08
right? Yeah,
Courtney Smith 31:11
because I don't want, I can't be fundamentally alone. You know,
Josh Lavine 31:20
it's amazing. I experience as having a six fix myself. I experienced this, you know, like, even in my relationship with John co founding the school, it's like, if I, and we've talked about this, you know, you and me, like, if I want, if I have a sense of an initiative that I'd like to do, there's a sense of, I It's like something comes up. I need to make sure John's aligned with me, you know. I need to check in with him. I got to make sure that, like I'm taking the step. Are you taking it with me? Because I don't want to take the step alone, you know? And you gave me this very powerful advice, which I've been sitting with a lot, which is just, you could, for example, when you're about to take that step, let him or anybody else know around you that, like, Hey, I'm going to take this step. Now is the time to give input if you'd like to give it. And I'm going to go ahead and do this. And that's been really useful as a tactic, really, really useful, even just the awareness of that has actually settled my whole nervous system around these moments when I'm making decisions on behalf of other people. Yeah, but anyway, so this point of like engagement,
Courtney Smith 32:29
it's a gift shadow of the six, right? Like, I'm really good at running meetings, I'm really good at like, leading committees, I'm good at like, running boards, like these big projects. And it, it be. It is because of the sixes. Desire to have consensus. I don't want to leave anyone behind.
Josh Lavine 32:52
Yeah, and it's also like my experience of it curious, if you relate, is that I want to make sure that we're advancing with a shared mind, that we're not disconnecting and living in our own isolated mental universes, so that, like, I want to make sure everybody's understanding and on the same page.
Courtney Smith 33:09
You know, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's just um, all of that's really beautiful and, like, a huge asset of the sixes. It's just that it's often being done from a place of fear, right? And so it's not intentional, and it's being overdone where consensus might happen anyway. Actually, minor disagreements are not that big of a deal. It doesn't threaten the partnership. It doesn't threaten the objective. It doesn't threaten the Alliance.
Josh Lavine 33:49
Yeah, yeah. Okay, so, so there you are leaving McKinsey, you're now in this Yeah. So again,
Courtney Smith 33:58
like same story for me. I did like a startup that I won't get into, but I did a startup like that was like a real estate venture, and was getting, like progressively more disenchanted with
Josh Lavine 34:22
just real quick when you say, did a startup? Were you, were you founding it? Or are you part of
Courtney Smith 34:26
the No, I had it was like a partnership that my now husband and a bunch of other investors had, like in a parcel of land in the Dominican Republic, and I was helping them put it all together and kind of come up with strategy and okay, and in the middle of that, I just was becoming more and more disenchanted with Institute. Oh, this is so six to institutions. So I was like, You know what I'm gonna do? I'm gonna become a doctor again. Like wanting it both ways, right? Because when my family people are lawyers or doctors. And so, so I kind of flirted that with that for a while. I quit my job, I did the post back at Columbia, and was also to apply to medical school. And in the process, I got I got married, and then I got pregnant, and when I had a baby, that was like a massive switch for me around responsibilities, let me put it that way, and I ended up deciding not to apply to medical school, and I ended up like just continuing to focus on my responsibilities around being a mom, and I went on the board of Planned Parenthood as kind of like the place for me to do my kind of intellectual mind activity. So I had a whole period where I was very focused on reproductive justice, very focused on the work of Planned Parenthood, and did a lot of leadership work there, even though I was not officially working, and that was amazing in terms of my contribution and how much I care about Planned Parenthood. But again, from a personal perspective, having family be my primary focus was, was a really bad choice for me, and really, really, like, sort of like a six is worse nightmare, where they're like, making all of these sacrifices to be dutiful and responsible and to do the things that they really care about, yet in that sacrifice and the disowning of the parts of themselves that are important to them, like I now was so reactive that my ability To like, fulfill those duties and responsibilities was really I was undermining myself and getting, like, a lot of feedback, like, you're not doing a good job, you're a pain in the ass, like, this is not working, yeah,
Josh Lavine 37:13
what were you What had you left behind or abandoned?
Courtney Smith 37:17
I think just a lot of my talents and gifts around how I like to use my mind, how I like to think about systems and Like broader projects and enterprises. I think also having purpose and activities and things that you can put yourself into that, like, if your well being and whether you've done a good job at the end of the day depends upon, like, how well your two year old has, like, eaten their food, or how many tantrums they've thrown. Like that is just setting yourself up for failure, and setting yourself up, from my perspective, to have, like, a really screwed up relationship with your kid, because at the end of the day, they're going to throw the number of tantrums they want to throw. And if, if, if my ability to feel good about myself is contingent upon that I'm really in trouble. Yeah, it took me some time to sort of see that
Josh Lavine 38:33
well, so yeah, what was that? What was the process like of you finding yourself in that situation, like, like, was it gradual? Was it these, these pieces of you that are so central to your sense of self, well being, your sense of aliveness and engagement the world, like, what brings you joy? Those things kind of, I guess, I guess, yeah, I'm wondering, like, was, were there conversations with your partner around like, Okay, I'm going to do this. You're going to do that. And then kind of the gradual move into and then realizing, oh, here I am in this place that while I am certainly devoted to my family, I've left a lot of myself behind. Was it immediate? Was what was that like?
Courtney Smith 39:33
Well, I think at least as it was happening, one thing is that, again, in this sort of not trusting your like, not trusting my own agency or capability, the the flip side to that also is that we don't want to take responsibility for poor choices. And six is i. Yeah,
Josh Lavine 40:03
yeah, I guess it's sort of, um,
Courtney Smith 40:09
I didn't have a choice. You made me do this. This is the way it was. What it takes to be a mom. Like, there's like, you had expectations for me that I had to do it this way. Like,
Josh Lavine 40:21
gosh, isn't that one thing you said on the on the big hormone podcast about object relations that struck me as you were talking about it in the context of six but I think that it's actually true of all the types, and particularly the attachment types, is there's this for the attachment types. There's this outsourcing of something fundamental to yourself. Yeah, to yourself, you know. And the the owning, the the truth of that is really embarrassing, because it's like as an adult, you're like, No, I'm responsible for myself. I'm like, make my own choices. I'm responsible for the way that I feel about myself, you know. But as a three, it's like I'm constantly outsourcing my value to the way other people see me. And this thing is a six, it's like the kind of embarrassing truth that I'm constantly outsourcing my own sense of my ownership of my choices, or my sense of agency in the way that I've chosen to live my life to these other sources that made me do it, or I had no choice, you know, that kind of thing. I mean, it's just a really profound and, yeah, I mean, I appreciate your just, it's because I'm aware that it's kind of, it'd be sensitive material to a six just listening to this like, oh, that's like, that's like, right on the on the nerve there,
Courtney Smith 41:36
to, like, really confront. Yeah,
Josh Lavine 41:39
it is. Yeah,
Courtney Smith 41:46
yeah. And it relates to part of why we don't want to take agency is because it's like, I have a friend who says, like, none of the credit, none of the blame, which I think is like, very six, like, if I get too far out in front of you, it's true that I may get credit and I may get to shape things, but I also risk being held accountable,
Josh Lavine 42:19
right? That's excellent, yeah, I agree, yeah.
Courtney Smith 42:26
So I kind of compromise on I'm never going to get what I want, but I'm never going to be the one then that like is responsible for anything bad that happens, because I was never in charge to begin with.
Josh Lavine 42:41
Mic drop, wow. Man, that is just excellent. I'm just, I mean, I actually, in this moment, I really got hit with that, because that was, uh, that was a very succinct and powerful way to put it. And even as a three with a six fix, I experience, I can see the truth of that in me. And also have people in my life that are very close to me, that are sixes, and I can see, I can see in them. So, yeah, well articulated. So this,
Courtney Smith 43:13
this. So I would say that even as my partner and I were scuffling and I was unhappy and he was unhappy, I was unhappy. And, yeah, life was moving forward and we were having more children. Whatever I would have said, the really big shift for me was when I started doing this personal development work where, like, I gotta get some tool here to figure this out, and the biggest tool that I came up with was I'm responsible for these choices, and before I can move on and do my next thing, I have to take responsibility for exactly where I am,
Josh Lavine 44:02
and did you come to that realization in the context of like a workshop, or was it just you sitting in your bedroom and just reflecting on your life, and all of a sudden you awoke to this truth? What? How did that come to be the
Courtney Smith 44:21
it really came with, like, the assistance of conscious leadership group, sure. Okay, forum that I was at, you know, these forums that they set up that are monthly meetings, and, I mean, they're very focused, as is their predecessor, Katie and Gay Hendricks. They're very focused on taking responsibility, right? And have all kinds of different funny tools to help you sort of see the role you've played in setting your life up to be exactly as it is.
Josh Lavine 44:58
Yeah, okay. I. Yeah. So it's, it's funny because it strikes me as like, when you say, when you, when you use the word tool to describe this, it strikes me as not a tool in reality. It's that. It's like, not like a hammer. It's like, a whole new way of Yeah, orienting,
Courtney Smith 45:18
yeah, yeah. That's what I'm saying. Like, it happened gradually, but like, happened with a lot of support and modeling of your tools we're going to use to, like, and no one can tell you, this is the other thing. Like, this, this, this, it has to be your own kind of knowing, of like, this has been up to, I see it, and so that's just a process that you go to workshops, you get like, you do this tool, you do this conversation, yeah. And I at some point, there's like a Oh my God, I feel Yeah. Guide myself. I facing what I've been up to all along.
Josh Lavine 46:18
It's yeah, it's beautiful. And it sounds like there really was a before and after from this thing. So what's what happens? So, what? Yeah, what happened after?
Courtney Smith 46:36
So, so I ended up going back. I got my master's in public health as sort of like a combination, or like a compromise, of still wanting to do big systems change, but liking the site like having done the reproductive justice work, it felt like a good kind of again, middle ground. I ended up getting a master's in public health. I went back to work. I was working at a safety net hospital in Brooklyn, and just really kind of relaunching my professional career in a but still in an institution. And, I mean, there's still, like, a lot of pieces here that are, you know, kind of the hallmark of a six, and I was continuing to do a lot of the personal at this point I had, like, conscious leadership group, they use the Enneagram. At this point, I had found the Enneagram I was doing, like, all of the reading I was compulsively doing about reproductive justice five years prior, had now shifted to the Enneagram, and I was compulsively reading about that. I was going to workshops, and so I had a professional career that was sort of tracking my narrative of all the different things I had done, lawyer McKinsey, reproductive justice, kind of tying all of those into one role. And I was excited about that, and the professional development work that I was doing was really happening on the side for my own growth. Like it really felt to me, like this is the founding these are this is the work I need to do in order to show up in the world the way I want to show up. Yeah, and we made the decision to move to California. We left New York. I settled in California, and in early 2020 would have said, like, I'm going to do public health work. That's what I'm here to do. And then the pandemic happened, and you know, I I'm really, really supportive of, I mean, I'm a coach now I'm a consultant, like, I double down on this, on this work of becoming more awake and seeing one's life more clearly. And like, when shit goes down, shit goes down. And so the pandemic was really, from my perspective, like me trying to achieve escape velocity, like being pulled back down into like, now you've got three kids at home. They have to be on zoom all day. You can't have any support because no one else is allowed in the house, because no one else is going anywhere. The five year old is crying all day long because, like, Zoom is terrible. Your kid, with ADHD, is addicted to his computer, and so now, like, he's up till two o'clock in the morning because he has to be on the computer all day, like, like, just like real life, like happened. And on the one hand, I did it better than I did 10 years prior, but on the other hand, it was very much like. Like, here's another wheel, here's another turn on all of my shit, and it's still here. Like it's not going anywhere. Like, I'm still tempted to blame the pandemic for the fact that I can't leave the house without like, like, going to get like, a muffin down the street is, like, a monumental effort, like it's the pandemic's fault, yeah, like that. And so I guess that's my other perspective, is that no matter how awake or open or growth, whatever word you want to use, your type is your type, like your your shit is your shit, and it doesn't go away. It just, you get more facile with it, you get faster with it. You hold it differently. But it just, it's still, it's like it's not going anywhere. And in retrospect, it was a real blessing for me because, because I couldn't do public health work, because I was taking care of my kids again, I continued to do all the Enneagram work, and continued to do my own work, and because that's what I was doing, people started asking me things, and started asking for me to type them. Started asking for me to coach them. This point, I was talking a lot to John, and that's when I did that deep dive on object relations. So all of that happened because I was having to re navigate what I could take responsibility for and what were the things that allowed me to be real about what I couldn't control in life, and at the same time, you know, not just kind of give over to that and go back into like, my old narrative of like, well, I guess I'm just going to complain because there's nothing I can do and really, really beautiful things happen because of it.
Josh Lavine 52:10
Yeah, I'll say. And one thing I'm wondering is, what is your inner relationship with public health work and this new trajectory that your career has taken, and was there like a grieving process around the project, you had to achieve escape velocity. Do you feel like you've reached escape velocity. Are you orbiting something now? Are you where? What's Where are you and all that
Courtney Smith 52:45
self orbiting? I don't orbit anything.
No, um, I think, from my, my perspective, I still care a lot about reproductive justice. I still care a lot about public health. I sort of see those as external constraints, external structures, external systems that keep each of us from becoming the fullest expression of ourselves. And from my perspective, the work I do now, it's all about the internal systems and structures that keep us from our fullest expression of ourselves. And so to me, they feel aligned. And if anything, when you're working in an organization and it's so clear what should happen, yet human beings keep getting in their own way, you see just how costly people's internal stories and assumptions are so to me, the work feels very aligned.
Josh Lavine 54:10
Yeah, I'm wondering about your inner experience of yourself from the point of view of being kind of whipped up into a storm around whatever you're reacting to or not feeling like you have agency in your life, and what has changed regarding all of that? And because my external experience of you and obviously we interact in a certain kind of context, but my experience of you is that you have so much wisdom and groundedness and ability to stay centered and like in contact with a genuine inner compass, at least in the context that we've interacted with so. Yeah, and I really admire that about you, and I wonder if that's a new achievement that you attribute to this work, and what your experiences on a kind of daily or pick a different time frame that's maybe longer basis like your contact with that.
Courtney Smith 55:21
I mean, some of it is, I mean, I think it's all attributed to this work that I've done over the last decade. Now, some of it is part of me can there's always, not always, but most of the time, there is a part of me who is watching myself have a tantrum and therefore can't there is part of me that's not taking it that seriously.
Josh Lavine 55:54
Sure. Yeah,
Courtney Smith 55:58
that is just like, there you go again. Like, like, this is just hilarious. And so I think, like, my husband will say, like, even if I'm sort of, you know, ranting, like in the middle of it, I might wink at him.
Josh Lavine 56:25
Oh, okay, yeah. Oh, that's interesting, yeah. And
Courtney Smith 56:34
then he's kind of like, well, now what do I do? You know,
Josh Lavine 56:41
I could see why that's disorienting from his point of view. Well, if this brings up something that I I'm so glad we're here, because I, I experience you as very playful with this stuff and just playful in general. And also, like, you have a real sense of humor about all this stuff, you know. And we talked about persona work, and just, there's a certain it's funny, you know, like observing ourselves throwing tantrums. I mean, obviously there's, like, the drama of it, but it's kind of funny when you zoom out. So, and I there's something, I mean, we laugh together when we talk about this stuff. So it's, um, yeah, what's, and this wink thing, I mean, it's like, I yeah, what's, I don't know what question I'm trying to ask. Like, what's your relationship to this, like, playfulness in the wink and all that
Courtney Smith 57:38
stuff. I my relationship to it is that it's a part of myself that I like and therefore, and it just shifts things like it makes things interesting, it makes things funny, it makes things happen on multiple planes at once, right?
Josh Lavine 58:03
Yeah, yeah, I like that point and so
Courtney Smith 58:09
why not?
Josh Lavine 58:11
Yeah, it's kind of like the when we're when we are, when we've not cultivated very much inner witness and there's not that inner place that we can go to to observe ourselves, then all we have is being trapped in the drama of ourselves. And when you have that kind of like escape valve where you can, kind of like open the hatch and get up there and see yourself, then it brings you in the contact with other aspects of yourself. They're getting obscured by the storm, and so, like this wink comes from it almost seems like a more genuinely you Courtney with a capital C kind of place. So I know what you mean by the different layers operating at once. You know, there's like, the drama and the frustration and the tantrum, and then there's this like, but also like, so funny to me, yeah, yeah,
Courtney Smith 59:13
yeah, so and I don't Know, Like, it also works for me. I get things happen because of it, so I feel better. Other people feel better. Different things reality actually is different.
So, yeah, like, who doesn't want to be playful?
Josh Lavine 59:46
Yeah, totally.
Courtney Smith 59:48
And I can do it like, I mean, not all the time, but like, and we all can do it actually, we just have kind of forgotten,
Josh Lavine 59:56
yeah, but it's, it's something particular to you. I mean, there's. Everyone is playful in a certain way underneath everything, some people have it more foregrounded than others, but there's a way that you actually are are so in it, and it's so authentic to you that you're you invite people into it, you know? And yeah, no, you're welcome. Thank you. Um,
uh, yeah, I'm tempted to ask.
Courtney Smith 1:00:26
And then I guess the other thing you can ask, the other thing with I would say, which I know, we I touched on in round one. You know, I just have done so much embodiment work. I
Josh Lavine 1:00:35
was just gonna get there, yeah. You go, yeah. Um,
Courtney Smith 1:00:38
so there's a really big difference. I mean, I think one of the things, and I can't remember if I said this the last time we talked, but, you know, everyone sort of talks about, like the essence qualities, or what each of the types is looking for. And, you know, we talk about guidance and orientation for the six, and then always gets kind of, you know, like support gets thrown in, like, a feeling of being supported. And I've been really struck by which I've known, but it's like, I'm like, even knowing all the more you know, support is not experienced in the mind. Support is experienced in the body, yeah. And so this is, again, like, I think one of the fundamental ways, like six, is I totally get it. I do it all the time, but, like, we're using our mind to try to create something it can never actually experience.
Josh Lavine 1:01:37
Excellent. Yeah, it's good.
Courtney Smith 1:01:41
And so for me, I think embodiment work is important for every type, but especially for a six that feeling of landing, you have to do body work in order to get there. I Yeah,
Josh Lavine 1:02:04
can you we touched on this last time, but it's actually, it's such potent material that it's worth revisiting. I know you had, you sort of contacted this through your feet and all the footwork that you've had, and I mean literally surgeries and things like that, from wearing high heels in New York, and also Alexander technique, which came up for you, and I have other ways of getting into it, but you, you've talked before about actually, let me set it up this way. I coach plenty of sixes, and what I learned, what I've what, some what, sometimes I forget. But what I've learned is that when I'm working with a six and they're in mental space. I mean, as a mental type, they're sort of hanging out there automatically. But there's a there becomes a kind of psychological density of ideas and theories about what is going on with them in their environment. So like, in the context of executive coaching, it's a lot of like, well, if you think about it like this, it's like this, but this, but maybe there's this other idea. But what about this? And it could be, and what if this? There's a lot of that, like mental fireworks, and we're following every individual spark and investigating it for the possibility that it contains some kind of truth that could ultimately describe the reality. And my orientation with sixes is to kind of try to settle all of that and then get to a place where they can actually, let me put it this way, when I'm experiencing a six, do a lot of that theorizing like, what if, what if? What I'm really sensing is that they're not yet in contact with the the place in them that could meaningfully determine what is actually true for them or not. They're just entertaining ideas, and it's just ideas, ideas, ideas, and they're light and they're free and they're infinite, and they get very and six get very lost up there. So this project of contacting that inner compass, which has a seat somewhere, like in the belly, or wherever. Something like that is not something I've experienced that you can convince a six to do. But once you give a six, if you can, kind of if somehow, like a six, can get there, or if you can guide them to it, then they have a visceral sense of it, and it's then they have a reference points. And so I'm curious what that journey was like for you, and if you're relating to what I'm saying, if it feels right for you,
Courtney Smith 1:04:46
yeah, yeah, very much.
Josh Lavine 1:04:49
Yeah, yeah. So what was, what is that? What's that like for you? Well,
Courtney Smith 1:04:55
I definitely agree with you can't convince the six to do it. Um. I also, I mean, I think one of our we, one of the things that are as nice about a six is we are committed to truth. Yeah, if the body is turned on at least a little bit to where we can something does land viscerally. For us, it is memorable, especially if it's kind of there's some mental stuff that goes on around it to help us land into it and understand its significance. So for me, a lot of practice around you know, when have I felt good? Or when have I felt like this was a good decision? Or when have I had, like, a feeling of knowing what was going on? What did I feel in my body? How did I know I knew? So, some of that kind of like retroactive work, I think is really important. I also think this is my own experience, but just turning on body sensation and helping sixes understand that it's a form of intelligence, and therefore we're missing out on truth when we shut it down. I think that's really important, and I I don't think there's a fast fix to developing body sensation and developing attunement to the body. I think that if you have a couple of experiences where you see what's how it's costing you to be not in touch with it, then you become motivated. That was my experience. I mean, you know, my primary teachers have been through CLG, but their work is really grounded, as I said in gay and Katie Hendricks, and I'm taking a course with Katie right now. I mean, she's all about she's got different words for like, what are the inarguable truths? You know, whole body? Yes, whole body, knowing, there's a lot of practices that she's really pioneered around,
like truth lies in the body.
Josh Lavine 1:07:40
Sure. Yeah, actually.
So I know we'll probably come to a close soon, but I wanted to open up one other topic, which is that you have described yourself as a compulsive reader of different things. You get on these kind of tracks where you were compulsively reading about reproductive health, and then you were compulsively reading about the Enneagram and surrounding material, and that led to object relations. I have a feeling you're probably reading something interesting. Now I know you're preparing to write a book, so I wanted to shift into, like the gift of the mental sensor and the six, and particularly the of this five wing, which is so intricate and fascinating and has revealed some really interesting and useful insights that have kind of become major pieces of our community, And the way we think about the Enneagram and, you know, so not to just shit on the mental center as this dense thing. I mean, it actually is a navigation mechanism to discern something. And you have a lot of energy and focus and patience for these projects of figuring things out. And I wonder what your experience of that is and what it's I mean, I know you're sort of being, in a funny way, self deprecating to say you're compulsive reader, but I think it seems you're also genuinely you tell me, are are you? Is it partly from an anxiety thing, like, I just have to figure this out, otherwise the world doesn't make sense, or is it a genuine curiosity thing? Is it some mix? What's your experience of all that?
Courtney Smith 1:09:25
I think most of the time it comes from curiosity. I think sometimes there's which I think is great, like I need to check this out for myself. I'm not going to just take what you said as right. What are your sources? I'm going to read your sources and then I'm going to decide for myself. So So some of that compulsive reading is finding something that's of interest to me and then looking for how that person got there. Her and wanting to do the work myself
Josh Lavine 1:10:06
to piece together the lineage of thought, like the chain, no, because I'm
Courtney Smith 1:10:13
because I've just seen too many people take things out of context, or, you know, mold something to fit their own purposes, or leave important things out. So, yeah, I want to see what I want to figure it out myself.
Josh Lavine 1:10:35
Yeah, I hear you.
Courtney Smith 1:10:41
That's one thing, um, the second thing is, yeah, I continue to and the object relations stuff was very much this way for me. I continue to be guided in terms of what is my own work, personally, what is the next frontier for me, the next edge I'm developing and then trusting that, if I do that, if I go all in on that there is some kind of larger contribution that will come out of that. And so for me, some of the when I feel something in my own body, or I get feedback, this is something that I want to look at, or I feel a resonance of, like go more into this. I do feel this. I mean, I think this is one of the things that I really love about the kind of work I do right now, is there is this really genuine feeling of alignment between greater purpose and my own self expansion, they're really not different, and so I feel when I feel something within myself that I need to work on, I really do go all in, because it feels like it's in service of me, but it's also in service of other people,
Josh Lavine 1:12:18
which is which kind of brings us to one of the qualities about six that I most admire, which is this, like devotional quality, like a sense of, like the desire to contribute to a greater whole, or something like that, like, I pledge my sword to this thing. Or, you know, like, that's, I love that about six, and, yeah, and also maybe six, one stem in particular has that with a certain potency. But yeah, I wonder, is it true that you now experience, I mean, your devotion to this thing and the contribution you're making, and continuing to make and trying to make, the experience of your inner congruence with that is that different from the way you experienced life at any of the other places you worked? Yeah, it's the first time I've already experienced that. Oh, that's, and that's pretty magical, I imagine, yeah, yeah,
Courtney Smith 1:13:24
it's, it's very gratifying, rightly, deeply grounding and deeply gratifying. It
Josh Lavine 1:13:33
strikes me too that you know you're working mostly alone, right? Like you're is that, yeah, which is also a departure from yeah the past. What's that? Yeah, what's that? What's that like?
Courtney Smith 1:13:49
I mean, it's not my preference, actually, sure. But, you know, I'm very much there's a song that I really like, by shoot, I'm gonna bastardize her name. Do you know where Rihanna Gideon? Is that? How you say her name, too? I don't know. Anyway. It doesn't matter. She's got this, like, she's got this song with, like, some heavy drums, which, you know, I'm a big fan of, and she has this line, like, I don't know where I'm going, but I know what to do, which I think is very six of like, don't get too focused on, like, where this is going, like, how you wanted it to be, like, what's going to happen next? Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Like, look at the breadcrumb that's right in front of you. What is there to do? What is the next thing to do? And for me, the idea of working alone versus in partnership or with, like a bigger organization, or with, you know, in collaboration with people. Yeah, I just kind of really trust that it's gonna I'm just gonna keep doing my thing right in front of me, and whatever is supposed to happen
Josh Lavine 1:15:12
will happen. Wow, and that's so the project of figuring out your life path and what you're doing, maybe you'll be a lawyer, maybe you'll be a doctor, maybe you'll be a consultant. That whole thing is kind of settled, it seems. Yeah, I don't have any of that anymore. It's remarkable.
Courtney Smith 1:15:38
Yeah. I mean, I still kind of like, Should I do this project? Should I do that project? Like my energy, like, and I have a lot of ideas, and I have a lot of, you know, things that interest me, because I am so curious, and there is finite space, finite time, and and so I can, I can still get caught up and, you know, do I invest it in a book? Do I invest it in, you know, doing something for my community? Do you know, do I do corporate work? Do I do more?
Josh Lavine 1:16:12
Yeah, totally, totally.
Courtney Smith 1:16:13
I got, I got that still. So it's not perfect. It's not like it's all quieted,
yeah, but it's much quieter, cool,
Josh Lavine 1:16:37
yeah. So sir, anything that I didn't ask you, that I should ask you, or that you want to share,
Courtney Smith 1:16:50
I feel pretty complete
Josh Lavine 1:16:53
me too. Yeah, I want to say one other thing around I I don't know if I'll keep this in or not, but just my experience of my experience of you at our last zone was like you might you had such a
like, I was watching you dance and just like be in the group, and I had the feeling of like I'm watching, I'm watching like the like a dragon, like a radiance thing, you know, like a like a someone who's just really grounded and is really being themselves. And there was a sense of both playfulness and wisdom and like a kind of heft, like a kind of existential heft, you know. And yeah, I found it very beautiful. And I wondered about if you experienced, if that was, if you were experiencing that inside something like that.
Courtney Smith 1:18:20
Well, first of all, I hope we keep this in. That was, those are some really nice things you just said about me. So, okay, no, I'm just kidding. You can keep it in. So first of all, yeah, especially because I don't know what I'm gonna say in response. So maybe don't keep it in. Who knows? I i I know what you mean, so I appreciate being seen in that way. Um, that feels like a new exploration for me. Um, it kind of goes back to I actually have a number of things to say about it. One thing is, it kind of goes back to me to sort of like trusting that if I do my own work, there is a contribution. It is in service of the whole. And so I think it is actually healing and moving for people to watch someone be themselves.
Josh Lavine 1:19:30
So this kind of missing piece energy for the six, you know, all the way around to three, yeah, the glory of yourself, yeah,
Courtney Smith 1:19:37
yeah, yeah. And you can't manufacture that. You can't, like, set I'm gonna show people. This is what it feels like, like,
Josh Lavine 1:19:43
that's right, it doesn't work that way, yeah, like, it's not. It's not.
Courtney Smith 1:19:47
I'm gonna be the teacher now, and this is what it's gonna look like when you're like in yourself. It is just sort of like an organic like, this is someone in themselves. Like, that is actually you. If more people were had the willingness, capacity support, whatever it does, it's contagious. Yeah, so you know, I really like the idea, like, actually, like, the biggest gift I can give is just to be myself, like, deeply myself. Like, that's really profound and beautiful to me. I think the other thing is, I'm in the middle of reading the matter with things by Ian McGilchrist. I can't remember if we
Josh Lavine 1:20:46
spoke. He's the neuroscientist, right left brain, right brain guy, yeah, of his stuff, yeah. Wait, isn't that like, I mean, I know that's a book, yeah,
Unknown Speaker 1:20:55
yeah.
Josh Lavine 1:20:56
I'm aware of it's a big book. Yeah.
Courtney Smith 1:21:01
And and I've been really um, like, I, I went, I went on a trip to South Africa a couple of years ago, um, and with like, eight people that do all this kind of work. And for me, it was, like, really cool around the instinct stuff, to see all the different animals and to see them just sort of like naturally doing their instincts. Like, what does that feel like to watch that? And you know, there's really interesting things that happen in the wild. So for example, there's a species of wild dog where, um, only the alpha male and female procreate, and so every other animal in that pack basically is trading sexual for social. Wow, like they've relinquished, right, all sexual instinct for the protection of the pack. Yeah, okay, they just do this, yeah. And there are leopards who, like very little social instinct. Generally, in a leopard, they live alone, and then all of a sudden, a female has a baby, and, like social totally gets turned on, and she's consumed with taking care of this baby of hers. And then over time, as she forges and leaves to go hunting, she travels further and further away each progressive time she leaves, until one time, she just never comes back. And from that point forward, social is turned off for her, and she will not care for that child, that baby, ever again. Like that relationship has been, that form of connection is done with that last hunting trip. And so I think there's a lot of, like, really profound things you could do with people. Like, what does it feel like to be that wild dog? What does it feel like to be the leopard that says goodbye, but doesn't really say goodbye? You know, like, like, I just is, like, really kind of lit up by these ideas. And so I was talking to that about all of that to like, one of the people on the trip, who I think is a body type, and he was like, I want you to know that, like, what you're transmitting is amazing. Like I am, like, bowled over by it, and it has nothing to do with your words, wow. And so for me, that was a really, that was really good feedback for me. Uh huh, um. And so I, I have done a lot of practice and exploration myself, lots more to do around, you know, I do have a I'm good with words, I like language. I like communicating. Think I'm good at it, all of that kind of Yeah, and what if, actually, what I'm delivering is not in the words at all, or is deeper, it just something else. And for me, that book about right brain left brain, which sort of talks about the world of language as a left brain phenomenon, it's important. It's needed, because that's how we as human beings communicate, largely with one another. But there's a whole other layer of wisdom experience, part of the mental center that's not coming through language at all, and is the mental center woven with the body and the heart center actually. Mm.
Josh Lavine 1:25:00
Hmm, like it's Yeah,
Courtney Smith 1:25:03
and so for me, increasingly things like the zone are places for me to play with that, like, just shut the fuck up. You know, just trust that there's an exchange something happens even without language or with very little language. And so, yeah, so that is me. You could you were seeing me play with that
Josh Lavine 1:25:45
cool, well, glorious. And it's so funny to ask you a question about something that's like, non verbal, and then to have this, like, extremely real conceptual framework around it, you know, I know, I know. And that's part of the gift of the gift of being a mental type, but also exploring these other centers in your relationship with
Courtney Smith 1:26:06
them. Yeah, so yeah. And it's like, I only think about it all the time, because, like on the one hand, is it better to just let it be, just let it like, you know, but like on the other hand, like, we have menus for a reason, you know, like, when we eat food, knowing what to pay Attention to, actually in enlivens the experience.
Josh Lavine 1:26:41
Yes, it does. I I'm tempted to respond to this and but I have a feeling it will take us into a whole new universe of exploration. And I feel like it would, we should probably wind down. Yeah,
Courtney Smith 1:26:54
and that's all, like, very urgent for me, you know, like, it's really laughing.
Josh Lavine 1:27:02
I'm laughing because it's like, because you're just a You are such a fountain of curiosity. And there's like, different, there's, there's kind of no stone that we couldn't unturn that would reveal some fascinating thing to look at and turn over and work with and play with. And I guess I'm just, like marveling at it, like your your fascination with all that stuff, your stamina for it, and, yeah, it's just kind of cool. I mean, it's who you are. It's cool.
Courtney Smith 1:27:35
Yep, my husband does say I have a lot of stamina.
Josh Lavine 1:27:39
Said he once had like, an eight hour conversation with you.
That's funny,
Courtney Smith 1:27:55
yeah, that's really funny. Yeah. What
Josh Lavine 1:28:00
has this been like for you this time around round 2.5 actually, because we had that internet problem that one time, oh yeah,
Courtney Smith 1:28:10
it's been fun.
Josh Lavine 1:28:13
Cool. It's been really good to just get context on your I mean, it's been really fun for me, and this is a really lively conversation, and, like, energetic and a lot of I'm fascinated by people's life stories anyway, so it's nice to kind of get a biographical arc, too. So, and I think we did a good job getting into the little cul de sacs of what was going on here, and contextualizing it in six land and stuff. So yeah, it's good.
Courtney Smith 1:28:41
I mean, I think also just like, as a 16 five, like, I don't like to really tell my story in that way, uh huh. Like, I don't know. It just feels like very like, feels like a lot of attention. It feels like a lot of like, very revealing. It feels like, Yeah, I wish you listen to this whole thing. Like, yeah, I'm from Nebraska. Like, you know, like,
Josh Lavine 1:29:12
yeah, yeah, yeah. It's, um, I mean, from my point of view, like the Nebraska stuff, not especially, but it's interesting, when you land on something where you have, like a place is not just a geographical location, it's also a whole cultural flavor, and that, plus, like your family background and the kind of water you were swimming in when you grew up, culturally and as an attachment type, like that being The thing that you're responding to or relating to or rebelling against, or whatever. I mean, that's all very interesting to me. So nice. It's useful to have that context to understand the choices you made from that place. Yeah, yeah. I'm
Courtney Smith 1:29:53
a lot of you from there. Totally,
Josh Lavine 1:29:55
yeah. Well, thank you. This is great. Good to see you. Good to see you, too. You
