Courtney Smith 0:00
I think the word randomness is a very charged word for most sixes. And actually, if I were writing like that, I talk about randomness a lot and the fear of randomness. And I do think that that's actually kind of a core structure that styxes are trying to defend against.
Josh Lavine 0:25
Welcome to another episode of what it's like to be you. I'm Josh Lavine, your host, and today my guest is Courtney Smith. This is a bonus episode. Courtney is featured on another episode, Episode 26 of this show in video formats. And this is audio only, because when we recorded this, we had an issue with the video. Courtney's full typing is social, self pres, six, wing, 5631, try fix. In the video episode, we talk more about Courtney's biography. In this episode, we talk more about Courtney's journey to her insights around object relations and her real time experience as a attachment type in the mental center. I'd like to say here that Courtney is point blank brilliant and one of the teachers and thinkers that I respect most in the ennegram world, and we explore in this episode a lot about her relationship with her inner authority, and also the experience of being seen as an authority or embodying being an authority now in the Enneagram world, especially after the release of her big hormone, Enneagram episodes on object relations, where she produced some really amazing, original Insights on a very powerful, transformative topic for people. There was a really interesting tension between my three ness and her sixness, and my three Ness being kind of wanting to see her and kind of rooting for her, to take ownership of her sense of authority, or like you made it like you are. Here. You've been, you've you've produced this extraordinary thing, see yourself as an authority, and her kind of diffusion of that and skepticism around wanting to be seen as an authority, or why anybody would want to be seen as authority, etc. So really interesting exploration. And I think Courtney is an extraordinary teacher, and I'm very excited for you to learn from her again in this bonus episode. So let's get into it. Without further ado, here is Courtney. Okay, let's just get into it. Okay. So, okay, welcome everyone to another interview. I am super excited to be with my friend. Courtney Smith, Courtney, what's up? How are you?
Courtney Smith 2:42
Hi, Josh. How are you?
Josh Lavine 2:43
I'm good. Thanks. Okay, so this, we're laughing because this is round two. We had technical difficulties. Okay, so why don't we begin? Why don't you, I would love for you to just let me set up your type structure, and then I would love to hear you talk about your Enneagram origin story. So your full typing is social, self, Pres, six with a five wing, 631, and how did you learn about the Enneagram and how have you come to be the Enneagram Maven that you are today?
Courtney Smith 3:18
So I was part of something called conscious leadership group, and that organization does a lot of corporate work, but I got to know them. They run these monthly forums where you come together as 10 people, and they've curated a whole bunch of skills and practices and concepts from a bunch of different spiritual traditions, psychological traditions, Byron, Katie, You know, Eckhart, Tolle gay and Katie Hendricks, and one of the strands that they use is the Enneagram. And so my first exposure was being part of one of these groups and being told I needed to be typed. And that was maybe six years ago, and and there was something about I, you know, I continue to be part of one of those forums. I've been to, like, four or five of them at this point, and is a big part of my growth trajectory. And which sounds pretentious, but it's okay, but there was something about the Enneagram in particular that really, really well I was deeply skeptical, and it also deeply grabbed me at the same time. And so I really went headlong into it and started going to workshops, reading, compulsively, thinking compulsively, and sort of ended up. Here I was typed originally by some professional typer who typed me as a type six, as did my husband pretty quickly. But I thought I was a one for a while, and resisted the type six label for for a time, and then kind of gave in.
Josh Lavine 5:26
Yeah, can you talk about that journey? That's a good one.
Courtney Smith 5:35
Well, I think some of it is that I don't think, well, first of all, I mean, it just mean, it just a lot of the literature, I think, on all of the types are, is really negative, and that's fine. That's, I think that's accurate and helpful for all the types to sort of confront what's going on for them. But I think that the type six literature in particular kind of makes us sound sometimes a little boring, in a way that didn't resonate with me. And also, I'm not sure how, that's how people would describe me. I'm not, I'm pretty decisive, yeah, and so a lot of the stuff around, you know, cautious, not sure what to do, presenting as not confident, all of that stuff felt not quite right to me, and so it took a little while, you know, saying that despite the fact that the people that were very close to me, You know, my husband thought I knew I was a six from the very beginning, and I so, I think there was something about and I think also, in particular, the type six sort of, this kind of gets into the object relations piece of it all. I think that there's something attractive about, I the certitude of the one, the internal certitude of the one. And, you know, I think kind of glamorizing that a little bit as a six, and hoping that that I that I had that, and then realizing it was more complicated.
Josh Lavine 7:22
So yeah, there's a lot to pull out of what you just said. There is, yeah, one thing I was thinking about as you were talking about the six wish, inner wish to identify with the certitude of type one is that it sort of mirrors the way that nines will often misidentify as type four as a as a unconscious way of grabbing onto or trying to anchor to a point of or it's feeling unique. And the other point I wanted to make is that in a lot of the literature, the types are described in terms of how other people perceive them, and not as much from the actual inner experience of the type, which is sometimes an authorial choice, but also it's just very difficult to capture an authentic inner experience, which is a very dynamic thing in static language. And anyway, all this to say, it makes sense to me that you misidentified as one, given your experience with what you read, and I'm curious about what it was that helps you settle into the realization that you were a type six, and what was that? I'm curious if there was, like, an emotional journey in that too around or if there was some element of it being like embarrassing to realize you were six dropping the need for the the idea that you had the certitude of the one or something like that was, is there anything like
Courtney Smith 8:50
that? I mean, I think the other thing I would say, which, again, I think, relates to the object relations piece, is, you know, a lot of the the words that get sort of associated with type six, responsible, loyal support, authority at the beginning. None of those words felt very charged. Oh, that's good to me at all. They felt kind of flat. And I knew I was a sex way before I started doing the object relations work with John, and then also the thinking about it that I did on my own. But I do think that the emotional flavor of those words really did get animated for me only in the context of object relations. So that's one thing that we can sort of talk about. But in terms of landing on, Oh, actually I am, it's, I mean, I think, I think there is for everyone the sort of the opening of the kimono and the vulnerability of like, oh, this is really what's going on and what I'm really up to. And I think that happens for many people, regardless of what. Or you're a type six or something else, as you kind of land back where you were. But I think the other thing for me was just continuing to get feedback around the analytical quality of my mind and the there's a conversational style I have that's just not very one like I would guess, right, I would think. And so I just my husband continued to push on me, as did other people and so, and there was a playfulness with language and an irreverence that I can have that so I think it's an interesting question that you're raising, because I think I came to type six, but the emotional pretty early on in that journey. But to your point, around the emotional landing of like, oh, this is what I'm really up to. I think that there's been waves of that, and really some of that core structure of what's going on, and having to reckon with the the outsourcing of guidance, knowledge, security, groundedness, all of that really didn't come until I did the object relations work, and that really animated the type six for me.
Josh Lavine 11:38
Yeah, that tracks. There's one thing that's interesting is that, okay, we we're talking about words like authority and guidance. And what is often written about six is that they have a difficult time following their internet guidance, or discovering or trusting it and and yet, you know, from one point of view, your entire journey of discovering that you were type six was a resistance to authority. You know you were, you were officially typed by a professional that you trusted, and also your husband told you were six, and you got consistent feedback. And there was enough of an inner skepticism that you held towards that that you, you know, you could make an argument that was following your inner guidance. And so there's a very interesting paradox around this, and I think that that language around trusting inner guidance is ultimately true, but to get there, you have to excavate so many layers of the six psyche, and many of those layers are skepticism that would at first blush, seem to be like the six actually following the inner guidance. And so I just find that really fascinating. And, yeah, maybe, maybe a way in to, I would love to hear you bring that juice and animation to those words and what they mean to you now, given the object relations lens. And maybe we go there,
Courtney Smith 13:01
yeah, and I think some of it, I mean, the Enneagram itself is an external system, right? And so, you know? And so for me, when I teach the type six, and when I experience the type six within myself, even if there is this inner skepticism, it's still I need to argue with you. Yeah, there you go. I need to you're still a point. You're still a point of con reference for me that needs to be persuaded or pushed up against, or there needs to still be some sort of relationship with you, even as I'm trying to sort things out internally. And so that, for me, has been the biggest understanding of my relationship to authority, and I can see it all the time. I mean, there are so many examples of doctors, you know, teachers that my kids work with my husband, my family, where, you know, they really just can't win, where I'm both wanting them to be right, but then also skeptical that they're right. You know, Oh, you're too mainstream. No, you're too fringe. You know too much. No, you know too little. You know, like there's just this constant kind of complaining that it's not quite right yet, not willing to give up on the fact that they are not in the mix.
Josh Lavine 14:30
Man, that's really that is attachment and reactivity, right there. I mean those two things, and that is just that as a, as a, as a core three attachment competence type that being both attached and reactive in the same core line is really confusing to me, but I also I get I, my experience of type six is that I don't think there's a more argumentative type than type six, like it's there, is there, there is all. This, this verbal, like it's like to have a conversation with a six is to enter a verbal both playground and arena, where there's all this stuff being sifted through to kind of get at the core of what's true, or something like that. And, yeah, would you say that's a fair characterization from your point of
Courtney Smith 15:22
you, yeah, and I don't. I don't experience myself as an anxious I don't experience myself as argumentative, I don't experience myself as reactive. All of that just feels sort of normal to me and how you would pressure test anything like why wouldn't you that level of engagement is required on anything really, from my perspective and and that's part of some of what the attachment and reactivity is about, is, are you going to play that game with me? Because even that creates trust, if you can enter that arena,
Josh Lavine 16:04
that's interesting. Can you? Can you unpack that one a little
Courtney Smith 16:11
bit well, just the the the willingness to have that exchange and to put like the process of doing that creates trust with a sex even more so than, like, landing on a particular outcome. Yeah, so like, if I'm worried, if I a doctor, for example, if you know, like, if I take my kid to the doctor, and they like him and Ha, and then they're like, actually, they just have a cold. And I say, walk me through how you got to that. And some of them will say, No, I'm not going to or they'll, you know, kind of brush you off. And then others will say, well, here are the five things that I saw, and then I can engage with them and that there's been many times where they've done that, and then we'll end up at a different diagnosis, because I'll push it back and say, well, then what about this, and what about that? And then actually, they'll end up in a different place. But ironically, they've created more trust with me, even though they've changed their mind because they've engaged with me in the process.
Josh Lavine 17:10
Wow, yeah, so there's something about the willingness to engage that is itself the trust breaker, as opposed to the certitude about the result or something like that, but that's, yeah, right,
Courtney Smith 17:23
but then yeah, but then also, you know,
Josh Lavine 17:27
and no, yeah,
Courtney Smith 17:31
right. Because if you I'm also looking for someone who, yeah,
Josh Lavine 17:34
there you go. You know, who's that's the funny, yeah, that's the that's the funny thing about sixes is that there's always that inner, inner contradiction. And I was just thinking, as you were saying, that that right, the whole, like, the willingness to follow someone who has an absolute level of certainty around something like, I was just thinking about, you know, alpha, omega dynamics, or, like, the Trump phenomenon or something like that. There's a sense of like, there is a there's a somewhat sexist quality to the willingness to just like, well, that person seems really certain about something, and so yeah, that's the truth.
Courtney Smith 18:16
Yeah, yeah, it's super attractive
Josh Lavine 18:20
that, yeah, it's really funny and difficult to hold those two realities in the same breath without going without going insane. That, on the one hand, I want you to engage in a process of discovering truth with me in order to earn trust, but also, I want you to be certain in order to earn trust. And so, yeah, that's a funny one. Yeah. I
Courtney Smith 18:41
mean, I think we're, I mean, I have a lot more appreciation for an empathy for my husband,
and even now, when I, when I coach sixes, and I can feel them getting in their own way. You know, it's, it's a mirror for me, because I have my own equivalents. Yeah, I mean, I mean, I think there's something also about stamina, you know, like, the like, I mean, I can do that for hours. And I think there's just a lot of other types that, and some of that's the reactivity, right as well. Yeah, you know, like, my, my brother's a type six, my sister's a type six. And, you know, we'll play, we used to play card games together, and we can argue for 45 minutes about, like, a nuance of a rule. And, yeah, it's not written this way, and that's me in the book. But what about. This what about that? Yeah, yeah, you did it this way. Last time you do it this way, next time you know, I mean, we enjoy that. That's
Josh Lavine 20:06
yeah, so that you enjoy that. That's like, that was a really important sentence for me to hear it because, because I don't, but I understand that, that you do.
Courtney Smith 20:18
I bet you nod. It's so hilarious for
Josh Lavine 20:21
me, maybe for like, five minutes, but I've been in conversations that could go on for hours. I mean, literally hours. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, um, one way that I've started to conceive of six, and I'd love for you to kind of react to this in the moment, is, um, you know, I've gotten really interested in the centers, and I conceive of each of the centers as being like, to be a heart type, for example, is to be psychologically anchored in the layer of how attention is being paid to me, to things so like the layer of gaze and the mental center is like, that's the way I'm conceiving of it. Is to be psychologically anchored in the layer of symbol and orientation and symbolic representation of things. And that's a whole thing to unpack. But basically, like in the that kind of a conversation where you're having nuanced arguments that are fun, that lasts for hours about this rule, and it could be this way. And here's another possibility, and having you considered this, that feels, that's, that's mental energy, you know, that's, that's being a mental type. And I am curious about just your Do you have words for what it's like to be anchored in that kind of mental reality? Or do you have other words for that? Was a lot of my language. Do you have other words for what it's like for you to be a mental type?
Courtney Smith 21:52
I think it's a good question. And I think also I do you know there was some exploration of the centers as part of this object relations bit that I did on Bitcoin Enneagram, that I'm still piecing together and thinking about, because I'm not quite satisfied with the traditional language on how each of the types works with their three centers. But I think for me, the biggest for me, all of that mental energy, I wouldn't have known this initially. I really do experience it as a lack of groundedness, that there's really just a lack of anchor, of anchoring, and so some of that spinning that I'm talking about that I can be up in the ether having this debate about really inconsequential things for a long time. I mean, some of that is fun for me, and I have come to know that, or realize that it is looking for a feeling of stability or centeredness or groundedness, that that's not what that plane is for. And so it's like the more energy that gets put up there, the further away you sort of feel from I mean, I can literally feel my energy rising as I'm doing it, in a way that, at this point, to me, is usually a sign that something's going on, so that maybe that's a negative way of stating what you that maybe that's not what you Were looking for, but that that's really what how I experienced mental energy now, in its pure form, sure is a, yeah, a lack of groundedness or lack of it's a visceral experience for me now of what's happening. Well,
Josh Lavine 23:56
just even in the last minute of you describing that, I actually experienced a settling in myself, and kind of the way that you were considering that question, felt like there was a settling there too. I mean, it'd be interesting to watch the tape of our conversation, what our energy was like together four minutes ago versus right now. That's very interesting to me. Yeah. And so
I personally have, I have questions about coaching sixes that I want to get to later, but I am, I'm curious about for you, what has helped what helps you settle, what helps you bring that energy from like it sounds like the tendency as a mental type is for it to go up, and then my framing around it for the last minute or so is that it is now coming down. What helps you do that?
Courtney Smith 24:57
I do a lot of footwork. Yeah, like, a lot of exercises around I mean, I've had, like, I work, I pretended to be Carrie radshaw For like, 15 years, and so I have screwed up feet from wearing high heels and stuff like that in New York City. So I've had foot surgery, and because of that, I've done a ton of physical therapy, literally around my feet, a lot of balance work, a lot of improving sensation, and that's actually been pretty, pretty transformative for me. The other thing is that even though I started my Enneagram origin story with conscious leadership group. When you ask me, sort of my own path of waking up, I actually go back further than that, and I started doing Alexander technique in 2010 Yeah. And I initially did it because I had a lot of back pain associated with pregnancy, and my husband actually found the practitioner. For me, it was really the only thing in the literature that has really good efficacy around back pain. It's a whole thing. But I was really lucky, and I had three really, really gifted practitioners in New York City that I practiced with for, like weekly with each of them for five years. Wow. And so for me, that was really the beginning of understanding what it means to have a body center, and a lot of that language and a lot of that learning. I didn't understand its full implications until I did the Enneagram work, and then was able to sort of reintegrate what I had learned with the because they don't talk about their body types. They don't talk about it that way. So even now, a lot of my when I notice my energy rising and I need to literally find my feet on the ground. A lot of it is Alexander Technique practices around this balance of rigidity and fluidity, just focusing on the body as a vehicle for sensation, pausing to allow that to kind of catch up with the mind. And at this point I've, I've done a lot of practice with it, yeah, and so I can find it fairly quickly. And breath is a big thing. Also, I will definitely hold my breath, or just have very shallow breathing, the further up I go, and so just giving myself time to again. It is this quality of letting the breath catch up with the mind.
Josh Lavine 28:10
Yeah, beautiful. I love Alexander technique. I got through I got to it through a piano playing. Also back pain,
Courtney Smith 28:21
yeah, of course.
Josh Lavine 28:22
But can you just, can you briefly summarize what it is for people who don't know?
Courtney Smith 28:31
Yeah, so feel free to correct me, because I don't some of this is a little fuzzy for me, but there's, there was an actor in the early 1900s his last name was Alexander. I believe he was Australian, and he temporarily lost his voice. And as part of trying to figure out what was going on, he started doing this very intense study of micro physical habits that were sub optimal, and that were happening not wildly out of whack, but maybe two or 3% out of whack. And that margin of error that two or three or 5% out of whack in a position that you're holding for a really, really long period of time, or a position that you're doing hundreds and hundreds of times over the course of the day ends up cumulatively creating injury. And so it is sort of a way of looking and considering your use of your body and in what ways you've learned to use your body sub optimally. What's really interesting about it is that, especially from a type six perspective, the way that you. Sort of correct habits that no longer work for you, is not by trying to correct them. It is just by noticing and observing that paying attention to your neck or paying attention to your feet, and the minute you try too hard to correct something, you end up over correcting. And so there's this implied mind body connection, and also a lightness of how you hold a concept or hold a thought that I think is really deep and very profound when you think about how you try to optimally move through space. And I think the other thing is, especially for type six, a lot of as you're noticing habits you have a lot of the way that it works is noticing where you're over efforting. Maybe it would be different for other people or other types. But a lot of my work in Alexander technique was was noticing where muscles were working too hard, yep, and then inhibiting that overuse, yes, just by paying attention to it. And I think that is a really good metaphor for what type six is doing in our our gripping of trying to create security and stability and trying to create a feeling of foundation that, over muscling of it creates its own problems. Yeah, and I just think the Alexander Technique generally, this, it was this real. This, this beautiful metaphor for me, of what are habits, and how do you become aware of a habit? And then how do you work with a habit and actually create change? And from a neurological perspective, what's happening in terms of the body organization and how you move through space. It's really it's also how your mind is moving through space, and how your heart is moving through space, how your personality is moving through space. And so figuring working with that at a bodily level, I think, is it's just a really beautiful way to think about where else you're over efforting and the complexity, the simplicity and also the complexity of how you change beautifully.
Josh Lavine 32:29
Said, yeah, yeah. I think Alexander Technique is a really elegant way of working with yourself, and the one of the concepts in it that I just love is this idea of debauched kinesthesia, which is a fancy term for the idea that the way that you're using your body in a sub optimal way is it actually feels good for you and the and when you correct to the a better way, it feels in unfamiliar and so there's a natural tendency to go back. And I think it's just a perfect metaphor for what it means to work with your personality, and the Enneagram so very cool that you found that and that that has been such an anchor point for you. Yeah, yeah,
Courtney Smith 33:14
yeah. It, um, I had no idea that it would be such a big part of my life. And as a six I was very lucky that I came to it in a lot of pain, because I would have been super skeptical of the whole process. And it was only because it fixed my pain that I kept going initially, because the idea that you could sort of like think something away, it just that sounded
Josh Lavine 33:40
one of the thing I wanted to pull out from what you said is that the that was a really fascinating description of the of your experience of yourself as type six, as over muscling something. And my sense of what the six is doing is, I mean, that was, that's a very a body way to put it. And there is certainly a body pattern going on in every type, but my sense of what's going on in the six is that the quote, unquote over muscling is, is a, is a, trying to is a. It's almost like an inability to use the other centers when they would be more appropriate than the mind. It's like the mind is always trying to figure everything out and wrestle everything down to the ground to find, ultimately, like, Okay, finally, we've settled into like, this is the truth thing, you know. But when, when you don't incorporate the other centers, you kind of can't get there, because you're you're trapped in that upward energy that we were talking about before. And so, yeah, I have another question, but I'd love for you to maybe just quick response to that, given any thoughts I want to just
Courtney Smith 34:55
said, I mean, I think that's right. My experience is that i. I mean, I think it'd be a super fascinating podcast to do the arrogance of these types. Because I do think that's really, you know, as humble as type six, as can be. You know, I do think that we have this, this assumption that we prefer the mind. We think the mind understands and knows things, or at least when we start our path. And exactly as you described, the mind is used inappropriately where it shouldn't be. And then my experience is, what happens is that lifting of the energy and the misuse of the mind to make certain decisions or to understand what's going on is is initially being done to try to figure stuff out, but it creates actually more insecurity, more instability, more ping ponging, and then the body kind of comes in, in this hyper, over muscled kind of way to try to create an anchor, yes, yeah, but it's not a real kind of, it's not an actual body anchor. It's a fake, yeah, false one. And to me, that's what, that's where the over muscling is is happening is it's in response to the mind being overused. And that's
Josh Lavine 36:20
great. There's this Alexander concept of the false floor, like where you might be, you might be over, hinging your back in a certain way to create a feeling of floor. And then when you inhibit that, you actually you feel the floor through your feet and the rebound from anyway. There's a whole I could geek out about Alexander technique, but yeah, that's, this is good stuff. So, okay, let's, let's, let's talk about you again. So, yeah, yeah. I
Courtney Smith 36:46
mean, I think there should be a whole episode on Alexander technique, or some totally, I've, actually, I've
Josh Lavine 36:50
been thinking about it too, and we should, let's, I mean, let's put a pin in that, because that's, that's really good stuff, yeah. And,
Courtney Smith 36:56
like, sorry, I know we're going off topic. But like, I mean, this is also one of my really big things about a lot of the Enneagram workshops is there's just not a body movement. I'm not like, how can you if you sit more than 20 minutes, you have to disassociate, yeah. I mean, there's just no other way. It's
Josh Lavine 37:10
amazing. Yeah, I've been guilty of running workshops in this in that way, and I learned a real lesson last time I ran a retreat where it was mostly sitting and it just, it didn't work. Yeah, it didn't work. So no, it's okay, good. But
Courtney Smith 37:28
I do want to be i Sorry. I do want to say that. I mean, when I coach when, because of my own experience, when I coach sixes, there's a lot of body work, and I think that's probably true for any type, but I feel it most acutely when I'm working with type sixes, because, again, just to it's a I can literally feel in my body when I'm talking with a type six what they're trying to do with their mind, and what a fool's errand. Yes,
Josh Lavine 38:03
just because it's here, and I was going to ask you about it anyway, I I've started working with a couple of sixes in my own coaching practice, and I found, I found that I, in my second session with them, I was reflecting on just how absolutely ineffective I was, and what I realized was that I was trying to out six them. I was I was I was trying to outmaneuver in a conversational intellectual way. I was trying to point out what they were doing. But it was all hanging out in symbolic cerebral land. And I just, I learned you can't out six and six, first of all. But it was like, my six fix going to battle in a sense, really, and it was, and I think that we both actually, this is the, the funny thing is, we both had fun. It was a it was a fun session, and it was also just totally not useful for him. And so I was really thinking about, like, Okay, what do I? What do I do in what do I? What do I do to help him settle and also for myself to approach that conversation in a way that doesn't use that my six fix doesn't get trapped in that kind of space.
Courtney Smith 39:18
I mean, I do think that again, one of the lessons from Alexander, technique I kind of briefly looked into becoming a teacher, is, I think this is appropriate for coaching. Also, you know, part of what they're doing when they put their hands on their your neck, or you're lying on your back and they're moving your limbs and stuff like that, is, they are trying to kind of kinesthetically model, right, appropriate use of the body and the appropriate amount of tension there should be in the body. And so for me, anytime I'm coaching someone, and I offer a piece of advice or I see what's going. On, and I want to direct them in a certain way. For me, the first question is, okay, well, what are you doing in that space? Right? That's good, because I can't, I can't. How can I possibly encourage someone to go somewhere that I'm not myself? So, you know, I'll get in those six debates too, and I'll do it with, you know, not I'm not just type sixes when I'm coaching them. And as I feel that energy going up, the first thing is, I need to land in my own body before I'm going to suggest that they do it themselves. And, you know, I actually think that, again, this is my own experience. There is a there's an emotional, as you said, landing that hap like, the thing that we're sort of looking for when the body gets activated, there is this kind of like, Ah, okay. Like, yeah. And it's super compelling to a type six. It's like a finally, like, oh, I can. I can relax, I can. I have space to breathe. Actually, my mind has more space to do its job. And so from my perspective, when I'm working with a type six, and what I'm looking for in myself is, can I internally generate that feeling in any session? Because the memory of that, the reference point of what that feels like, is actually the biggest thing, I think, versus some mental debate that is gonna be ether,
Josh Lavine 41:54
that strikes me as absolutely true. Yeah, I wonder about you have two attachment types in your tri fix. And one thing that I'm I'm wondering about is, and you could maybe paint yourself in contrast to me a little bit with your one fix. But so as a for me, as a triple attachment type, one of the one of the pitfalls that I have in a coaching relationship is I I'm not settling enough into my own energy that I'm bringing the client into a more settled space, but instead entering their inner tornado and kind of accidentally getting caught up in it, and and, and then not having the presence or wherewithal in the moment to bring myself back to myself and then resettle and so do you experience that ever Is that a thing that you work with, or What's is it? What's your analog That
Courtney Smith 42:58
definitely happens to me?
I I mean,
I think some of it is, and this is also very type six, you know, I wasn't really able to convince myself to go on that podcast or to coach or to do workshops, or to do any of the stuff that I do now, all of that was, in some ways, claiming inner authority.
Josh Lavine 43:35
Yeah, that's good, which
Courtney Smith 43:38
I wouldn't have known that I really was going to struggle with, but I did, or I do. And so for me, part of the way that I ultimately got around all of that was understanding or coming to realize that the only way I could continue to grow was to do those things. And so I think it slightly changes my orientation when I'm coaching someone, because I am a coach and or I am working with someone, and we are co creating that situation, and I'm aware of that, and in fact, that's part of the reason why I decided I wanted to do it, is I it was essential for me, as much as it's helpful for everyone else that I'm working with. And so because I continue to come back to that there is a part of me that's always sort of monitoring what is in this for me, what just happened here for me, and I guess my my thought would be i. To not be judgmental or label what you're talking about within yourself, around I get kind of caught up in their own hurricane, but to just sort of see that that's actually inherent to the that's part of the co creation, is the noticing of that and then deciding what to do differently. It's it's no different than when you're meditating and you get lost in thought, and then you just come back, right? Yeah, that's good. It's gonna happen dozens and yeah,
Josh Lavine 45:27
Is it cool if we shift a little bit? I'm really curious about the experience of your claiming your inner authority, and you could take that that picking up on a thread to from the language around inner guidance and authority from before and what a, what a great Yeah, good idea. Oh, that's a good idea. Yeah, wow, very good idea. I Yeah, it's funny. I think that my floor here is a little bit, it's a little bit slanted, and so the chair, like always wants to slightly move this way. So I find my body over the course of these interviews, like a little bit starts going this way to compensate. Yeah, slanted.
Courtney Smith 46:18
You're just cozy.
Josh Lavine 46:24
Okay, so, yeah, so what a beautiful focal point to talk about. This you your appearance on The Big hormone, onion Graham podcast and presenting your findings around object relations is that, at least that's what I heard from, yeah, yeah. So yeah, maybe can you talk about that journey? Yeah?
Courtney Smith 46:50
Yeah. I mean, I think that some of it was, first of all, I met John at a workshop at the Enneagram Institute, and you know, it was, it was into his vibe. It was a flavor, as he would say. And, and he and I started working a little bit together, and he we talked a lot about the object relations thing. And I really just, it's not that I intellectually got it, and then period. And I think maybe because I'm a mom, and this interactivity of Enneagram type and the childhood environment, I just, I felt drawn to, like, really figure it out. And in particular, the word and attachment was super it just, it felt flat, abused. This word, it just, it felt like it had no you might have as well been saying, like, table, you know, it just had no meaning to me, sure, yeah, and I, I couldn't understand why it was so important. And I knew that well. I just, I had curiosity about that. I think the other thing for me is a lot of it started too, because this nature versus nurture question of, you know, does any type, Enneagram type? Are you born with it, or does it arise vis a vis, you know, early childhood experience, you know, I think that I felt that it probably you were born with it. Yet when I heard people talk about the object relation structures for each of the types, the attachment story always started differently than the frustration and the rejection types. You know, it was very easy for me to understand, look, there's been a failure on the, you know, the mothering figure or the paternal figure and or both. And now I'm frustrated. That made a lot of sense to me. Rejection seems kind of crazy, but like I get, like, it's always started with there was a failure, and now I'm going to reject them, as opposed to them rejecting me. And the attachment story never started that way or and I like it, never started with a failure, and that's why there were attached, and that inconsistency bothered me, and I I really started doing a lot of inquiry on my own about why, why would How? How could I create this narrative where attachment is a stress? Strategy in response to a failure of a need to be met, and what what language and what sort of experience must a child be having? What do you have to believe is true in order for that to be the right, the right, the appropriate, the response that is most adaptive.
Josh Lavine 50:29
It's a beautiful question, and one, one thing that I'm struck by, just to quickly interject here, is that, well, maybe it's the question, were you originally motivated to clarify this for yourself because of your life context as a mom, or was it just like a purely intellectual fascination? And then the other thing that strikes me about it is that there is this, like, the way that you frame that question. It just see if I can have words for this. It just felt six in the sense that, like it was, it was like, how do I make these pieces of something fit together by creating a narrative stitching that makes it make sense into like, what is the how do I? How do I make this thing that feels like it maybe has some promise to me, have more inner coherence? And I think that's you could take that as like the the one fundamental inner six posture is, is that orientation? Yeah, yeah,
Courtney Smith 51:45
yeah. I mean, I do think that. I mean, there's a lot of things I could say there. You know, some of it goes back to the what we were talking about earlier, which is, I knew I was a type six, but it I was looking for more juice, like, Where was, where's, what's going to be the next kind of big unfolding from, you know, after that first aha moment that many of us have when we sort of, this is what I'm really up to, and you read the literature or whatever, once you get past thinking you're A type one or whatever your own equivalent is, you know, I hadn't had like a punch in the gut, yeah, oh, good, okay, in terms of for a while. I mean, I was still obsessed with it, and was still but it, you know, and, and I would do these workshops, and, you know, again, like being a type six, I would want the map, and then also part of me would be like, I hope there's more than the map, you know, like, meet me somewhere else, beyond the map, even as I'm craving that.
Josh Lavine 52:51
Yeah, cool.
Courtney Smith 52:55
And so, so I think some of it was, you know, just literally, like, a hunger for wanting more. I mean, I'm using, like, really bodily language, like punch in the gut, like more juice, just more of a Give me, give me a big piece of something to work with here for myself. And so that sort of the was the internal motivation. I think some of it also was, again, having children and being very curious about their type. And having done like I went to I wasn't working initially when I had small children, and so I took a ton of classes at NYU and psychology, so I'd done a lot of reading in this area, kind of on my own, and trying to understand how attachment theory is different or the same than object relations. And that word attachment, especially if you're a mom, that that word is supercharged around kind of security, not not so much visa V yourself, but more about what's your relationship with your children? Are they securely attached? Doesn't everyone want to be attached? Like all, like, all of that was kind all of that was in me as a three with three young children and trying to understand the language of attachment and object relations and what was at stake given this other language I knew as a, you know, from a child development perspective. And I do think that there is this, I don't know if it's true for every six but I am looking for unified theories, like as a and I, and I, and I am always assuming that people are coherent beings and and if I can't see the coherence, it's a failure on my part, as opposed to. To incoherence on their part. And yeah, and having that curiosity at an individual level, but also at a structural level, that there is a way for all these pieces to fit together. And if I can't figure that out, if we don't understand how they all fit together, then there's more room to learn
Josh Lavine 55:22
what makes what makes the it's just it's so fast, there's so much, okay, first of all, it really does seem to me that so much of your entire life force as a being on Earth is directed at, sort of the essence of that question, which is, how do we make everything map more coherently? Or what is what? Or discovering what is, what is the truth at the bottom of this of thing? Or what's, what's the hidden order, in a sense, to everything. And first of all, does that? Does that feel right to you? Is that a fair characterization? Yeah,
Unknown Speaker 56:08
yeah.
Josh Lavine 56:12
And one thing that I'm I'm wondering is, why is it so important to you that everything makes sense.
Courtney Smith 56:36
I guess to me, I'm interested in the truth, and I have an assumption that there's an elegance or an organization. Yeah,
Josh Lavine 56:46
truth, an assumption. And almost it feels like a, I was going to use the word a hope, but it actually feels more like a kind of a hope that you wouldn't ever be able to give like a there's a certainty in the hope. Or, like, no, it's like no, there must be some hidden order that I'm just not seeing yet, or something like that.
Courtney Smith 57:10
Yeah. I mean, I do think that, you know, it's interesting. We spoke about the words like loyalty, support, guidance, authority, responsibility, duty, all of these words that, again, we can like, return to at some point, if you want that initially I was like, whatever. And now I really, again, because of the object relations piece, I understand how they fit in, and they do have more resonance for me. I think the word randomness is a very charged word for most sixes.
Josh Lavine 57:43
Yeah. Okay, that's good.
Courtney Smith 57:46
And actually, if I were writing like that, I talk about randomness a lot and the fear of randomness, yeah. And I do think that that's actually kind of a core structure that sixes are trying. Yeah, that's great. Defend against fascinating.
Josh Lavine 58:03
Yeah, that's a really good contrast. I mean, order and randomness,
Courtney Smith 58:08
yeah, yeah, and even, you know, actually, does randomness create order? Is randomness actually necessary at some level? Yeah, for a larger order that we can't see, probably is
Josh Lavine 58:27
so, so, dot, dot, dot. Okay. So, so, going back. So there we so there you are with this, with this question in your mind, what is yeah, what is meant by this word, attachment and you, you launch yourself into a an investigation that has some level of intensity, I imagine, or What was that like for you? That process?
Courtney Smith 59:02
It was it was obsessive.
Um, it had a, like, I was dreaming about it. It had, like, a little bit of, like, a fugue state, and also very six, and that the way I first got an attachment was to understand frustration and rejection and to deeply understand those First, and it was only through
again, really this. I you know, we're talking about coherence and order and all, but there is also, like an emotional component to what is the lived experience of a type one or a type seven or a type four? What would it mean to you? I feel frustrated from a very, very, very early age, and to have frustration, feel familiar all of that. So it was really through all of that that then I got to this question of in order for there to be a failure on the part of a an outside, an external object, mother, father, both whatever and to respond to that failure with attachment. I think for me, the biggest sort of opening in that was
the the
the denial of self that had to occur, the erasure of self that had to occur or the It wasn't even erasure or denial at the time. It was the blame, oh yeah, being responsibility for that failure of the external object. I think that was actually probably the original spark, and that if, if a small child takes responsibility for the failure of their external object to to meet their needs, what? And that's repeated over and over and over again, what ends up happening? And there was an opening for me there, and it felt like again, like it did sort of feel like, Oh, that feels internally, logically consistent and also weighted, like I can feel in my body that this is hitting me again, like it's a map that's coherent, but it's also more than a map. I It's it's landing in my if I look like, almost like this, it's making me rewrite my own history. Yeah? And, and for it to feel true on both of those levels was a big Yeah, I
Josh Lavine 1:02:19
can imagine. Can you talk about what it opened up for you in terms of your own self awareness? And I'm, I'm, I'm really curious about your you as a six through viewed through your own understanding of object relations, what did it reveal about how you were as a child, how you are now? Open question, yeah.
Courtney Smith 1:02:55
I think for me,
one big thing was, you know, I'm very focused on maintaining good relationships, and I had always assumed that was a positive thing. Yeah, uh. And so for me, there was a big moment around, yeah, but what is that on, what terms like, what is it? What does it mean to you that this is a good relationship? How do you define a good relationship? And for me, there was a big awareness of even something very, very, very slight. There's an implied deference, yeah,
Josh Lavine 1:03:51
that's good. That's really good, uh huh.
Courtney Smith 1:03:56
And it may not be obvious, and it certainly probably wasn't even odd, I mean, and
I think the big thing also was that it wasn't, it wasn't explicit in the in the terms of the relationship, and Perhaps not even what the other person wanted. But was still there nonetheless. And so that for me was sort of the biggest looking back on my life and all the different relationships that I'd had, where had I set this up, where I had sacrificed
my relationship to self in order to maintain the relationship I. Yeah,
Josh Lavine 1:05:02
are you willing to share an example?
Courtney Smith 1:05:10
Yeah, just let me think of one i
There's so many you can share a couple.
Let's see.
Well, I think, I mean,
I think one example is, even now, I have a lot of people that have been teachers of mine, that I continue to work With, and I'm very mindful of what their perspective is on something, and it is, it is difficult for me to articulate my own perspective without number one thinking it's their idea and just assuming that all of it is derivative.
Josh Lavine 1:06:42
Oh, that's good. That's really good, yeah.
Courtney Smith 1:06:46
And so, you know, like, one, I mean, I think John Locke, which is great, but, like, one of his gifts was to say, like, no, no one's talking about this this way. And I wouldn't have, I actually wouldn't have known that. I would have just assumed that I was regurgitating,
Josh Lavine 1:07:05
that's excellent, yeah, yeah. As a six with my six picks, I relate to that. Yeah, yeah.
Courtney Smith 1:07:14
So, so that doesn't even feel like deference. That just feels factual to me, that like I learned from this teacher, therefore this is his or her idea. And and even if I am going to articulate something that's like mine, there is this kind of minefield, kind of quality to it of, how do I articulate this without saying this person is wrong, or if I'm going to articulate that I disagree, Have I really done all of my homework to amass amassed enough different points of view that I can defend it. It can't just be that I disagree.
Josh Lavine 1:08:13
Yeah, and as soon as you said minefield, actually, I was surprised that you went in that direction, because I thought you were gonna go in the direction of a minefield of, if I take, if I extend my theory, one step in this direction, am I landing on someone else's idea? Like, where is where can I put my feet? Where it's still mine? I
Courtney Smith 1:08:44
yeah, that's also true. Okay, also true, yeah, yeah. And you know, how much credit do I need? Yeah, there
Josh Lavine 1:08:52
you go. That's yeah.
Courtney Smith 1:08:54
All the different lineages of people that I've talked to or worked with or read a blog or whatever.
Yeah, that
that weighs on Yeah, the weight
Josh Lavine 1:09:07
can you? Yeah, that's, I think that's just a really important statement. You just say it weighs on you. Can you talk about the quality of what that feels like for that to weigh on you? I
Courtney Smith 1:09:28
Yeah, well, I think, and this is some of probably the social stacking, you know, I don't want to put those relationships at risk. And so there's a fear of if I claim credit for something and it's not mine, what happens? Or if I articulate a point of view that's different than another person, does it put that relationship at risk? And that that fear is a bodily experience, which is the the weightiness of it.
I yeah, I think it's anytime we do anything that is unfamiliar or outside our structure, it doesn't feel good.
Josh Lavine 1:10:39
Yeah, right, it's that debacle kinesthesia thing also, yeah,
Courtney Smith 1:10:46
it's, it's liberating and also
Josh Lavine 1:10:50
scary, yeah, the whole putting your relationship at risk by articulating a difference in perspective is very interesting to me. I mean that that feels like that is attachment in the mental center. And that's like, that's that frame right there. And it's the idea that my distinctness as a mental entity from you threatens some fundamental way that we're supposed to do this. And like I the word enmeshment also gets thrown around in attachment theory a lot, and I think that's a good word for this. It's like, it's almost like you're walking around with this, like, very uncon like, deeply unconsciously held assumption that I must be intellectually merged with this person for the relationship to work.
Courtney Smith 1:11:38
Yeah. And I think another thing is, you can even hear it on some of those early podcasts where, you know, I'd articulate something, and everyone would be listening, and I'd be like, fine guys like, respond
Josh Lavine 1:11:50
to me, get me back.
Courtney Smith 1:11:59
And and so I think some of it is also, you know, very much my my learning process is that ping pong quality of I always need something to bump up against. And so it's, it's the relationship going away. But also the way I come to know something is by being in relationship to someone else, and I need you to continue to be around so that I can continue to push back to take my own or absorb like but I need a I need contact In order for my own thinking to go further. And if you're going, it's, you know, it's almost, it's like scaffolding. If you drop away, I'm going to stand still. And I don't want that. And I don't I have to have, it's this feeling of, I have to be in relationship in order to keep developing. And I'm eight online space. I mean other ways too. Do
Josh Lavine 1:13:07
you get that same scaffolding by reading and experiencing the disembodied minds of authors? Or is it more in actual, present, physical relationship that you experience that or
Courtney Smith 1:13:25
I mean, almost has been a really important person for me, and I've never, I've I haven't, I don't have a personal relationship with him. So I think some of it can happen in reading,
but it's
it's more meaningful for me if I have a relationship with someone. Some of it is just my memory is really, really, really, really strong if I'm talking versus reading or if I'm listening to someone. But I think some of it is also to your point, there's no personal relationship there, so less feels at risk.
Unknown Speaker 1:14:12
Yeah, yeah.
Courtney Smith 1:14:15
You know that there's, it's less of a it's less of a rock that has to be navigated in my own path, right?
Josh Lavine 1:14:27
I am thinking about your five wing and and I Yeah, something that I haven't squared away in my own mind yet is the idea of being like an attachment type with a rejection wing or vice versa. It just feels so polar to me. I experience, I mean, let me say more words about that. It's, it's like on the. One hand, there's this core enmeshment phenomenon that we've been describing. And also the five wing is this core like both the opposite of that, like distinctness phenomenon, boundary phenomenon, like intellectual allergy to and measurement kind of thing. And, you know, I on the one hand, you could, you could frame up your investigation into object relations theory from this point of view, that it's a six attachment thing with a five rejection, like, Hold on, wait, this isn't right kind of kind of thing. Is that? How you conceive of it, too? Is there another How do you experience your five wing in contrast your six or or how the two of them coexisting? I
Courtney Smith 1:15:56
mean, I think it's a good question. I've been curious, because, you know, when you look at all the different triads and triangles and things like the shapes you can make, you know, I do think the wings are interesting, because it's the only thing that, like both of your wings will whatever you are, the two your wings will be, the opposite will be, you'll have all three, frustration, rejection and attachment, yes, if you incorporate in a way that doesn't happen within, oh, I don't think any of the other sort of various harmonic or navy and all that kind of stuff. So I've always, I've been curious about whether the wings are creating a stacking, basically, of optic relations. And I haven't done that much thinking about it, but I'm curious about that. For me, the five and the six are always pretty muddy.
And
you know, for me, this idea of truth, it always has like an emergent quality to me that I think is very five.
That I don't,
at some level, I'm attracted to a truth to truth that has a dynamicism to it, as opposed to, kind of, like a thud, like, quality, yeah, of like, this is what we do, um,
and,
and there are things about, you know, like, I had different parts of my life where I felt quite alien, and, you know, absorbed myself in the library. And I do have a lot of defense mechanisms around when the shit is hitting the fan, I'm going to go puzzle this out, and I'm going to retreat and withdraw, and if I can intellectually understand what's going on then, then I'm gonna, at least I know this in one space, even as it's a mess or hot mess in another part of my life. And that feels very five like but I think also there is something about my understanding of object relations, and it's interesting to think about this visa, Visa six.
I, I am obsessed with originality. Is not quite right, but like I,
I do always want to tweak things, like I'm not. It's not enough for me to I always start with like what is known and start with the familiar,
but
there is part of me that is curious about what's missing. And, you know, I think to some extent, that's been a really good fuel for my own growth, like out of the six pattern, is that obsession with originality, even as I'm uncomfortable with it, that
Josh Lavine 1:19:52
what's your emotion? Does that mean?
Courtney Smith 1:19:54
I don't know if that's helpful. It
Josh Lavine 1:19:56
is helpful. Yeah. I mean, it's. Uh, actually, let me, let me, let me go this way, um, or
Courtney Smith 1:20:06
let me, let me say it another way too. Like, as I've like different teachers, and sometimes we'll talk about, like collaborating, and I'll be super excited about collaborating. And then, you know, when push comes to shove, like, if they want me to do something a certain way that I actually don't believe I can't do it sure, like, or if they don't give me freedom to, like, adapt and like, have room to make something mine, then I end up like, not I want to do it and but then also, something keeps me from doing
it. Um, yeah, it's
like, I want it both ways. Yeah,
there's a give me stability, but I also want to be creative.
Josh Lavine 1:20:59
Yes, that's a fundamental thing with, I think, all three attachment types, in certain ways, the sense of, like, the desire to individuate, but also the desire to be supported in my individuation, or something like that. Like, I want, yeah, I want to be independent, but I want your help to get there, but your help to get there makes me feel not independent. And so it's this, really, it's just, it's a seesaw. Yeah, that's good. That's good. So we'll probably come to a close team, but I have just a couple questions final for you. So do you have a Do you have a a? What's the right way to put this? I have to just say like I'm I'm really fascinated by you, and I think that your your contribution in the last couple years to the Enneagram object relations has been so so powerful and has been so illuminating for so many people and and I certainly include myself in that. I mean, the what your insights around attachment have been like, gosh, wow. Like, very, very helpful for me, and I am curious. Yeah, you're welcome. Thank you. And I'm curious what it's like for you having released some of your insights on that podcast, to now be on the other side of having exposed yourself and as an authority. So
Courtney Smith 1:22:47
yeah, I think that I'm just getting started. I think there's a lot more. The more I talk and think about it, the more I think there is to understand. And
yeah, I'm excited to see what happens
Josh Lavine 1:23:11
now, me too, yeah.
Courtney Smith 1:23:16
I mean, I, I, you know,
Josh Lavine 1:23:20
that was great.
Courtney Smith 1:23:26
No, I think that, yeah, I think that it's a totally emergent part of the Enneagram field. And I have, dozens of questions in terms of applications and parts that are not fully understood. And so to me, it feels really, really, really rich intellectually. And I you know, I think also,
what, as I said earlier, I think it's been such a fuel for my own growth, part of it as a six is sort of trusting that if that's true for me, it's true for other people as well, and that becomes sort of a source of authority. As long as I can root this in my own experience, then there's, there's some truth to it. And even if I'm talking and it feels pretty intellectual, um, and I'll lose myself sometimes, but um, for me, the Harbinger, or whether it's something that's worth putting forward is, has it emotionally resonated or bodily resonated for me and. If that's the case, then can I, can I put it out there and then see what happens next?
Josh Lavine 1:25:08
Yeah, what's really amazing to me about your answer is that I've been, I think partly my question was coming from a heart center, like, image place of, like, are you able to hold the self image of of being an authority now, and is almost like your answer is like, my the image that came to me is like you kind of poked yourself out of the contiguous, vast web of knowledge, just ever so slightly, a few centimeters out to drop this podcast and this knowledge, and then you recede it back into the web of the vastness. And there's so much more to explore. And it's almost like the sense of yourself as an authority has a really short, like half life, and then it dissipates into the the continuing quest for more truth and parsing out more nuance and more complexity.
Courtney Smith 1:26:15
Yeah. First of all, that's good feedback. Okay.
Second of all, yeah, I think that authority is something I continue to work with. And, you know, why does someone want to be an authority? I'm kind of skeptical of that desire, even as I can feel it in myself. And so what's that rooted in?
And
yeah. So for me, I think that is right the standing for something or putting something out there, but, but to what end? And that actually being, that
being an important question for me, yeah, in order to do it in the first place, you know, I do think what's happened is, and this is, again, like part of the six journey, or my journey as a sex you know, I'm trained as a lawyer and all of this, you know, I worked for big organizations for a really long time, and then I took time off when I had children, and then did some More studying, and then went back into the workforce, but always within a structure. And so for me, part of doing that podcast, like a couple of years ago, has really been sort of like I have a website now. I do coaching. Now I have these groups that I teach, and that's a pretty different way of relating to the world professionally than I would have done like five years ago, and that some of how, again, like, it's a complicated answer for me, like clearly answering it, but that even those are, you know, even as I'm teaching a group, and there's like, nine people, and I've been teaching them for a while, And I'm giving them a concept, and I'm holding space, and people are having, like, a lot of emotional, you know, breakthroughs and also breakdowns. I don't, I don't think I am an authority to figure but I don't think of myself that way, like it like I, I really am just in the moment. Yeah, responding to what's in the field.
Josh Lavine 1:29:36
You know, what's what's really strikes me about this is, there is this, I think, very interesting. I'll use the word healthy, just to throw it out here, tension between your sixness and my threeness around this idea of seeing you as an authority, because it's almost like your question after I you. I pose your question of like, well, why does a person want that? Why? Why, you know, and your skepticism towards even the desire kind of exposed something for me in that moment. Like, yeah, what is the deal like? What like? Why would I want? Why would I want you to see yourself that way? Or, why would I, and I have a desire to be seen that way too, as a three and, and there's a certain sense of, yeah, the the the paradox of having a healthy self image of or of individuating, I should say, as like, Okay, I am now, like, I, I'm this person. But then also the spiritual journey of losing that sense of self, or, like, identifying more with presence than your ego. And so there is this funny thing about attachment types, like, you know, so many spiritual teachers will talk about, you know, identifying with presence or being, the oneness or something like that, losing yourself. And one of the things that the Enneagram has really taught me is that you have to have a self before you can lose yourself. And this whole thing around attachment and individuation, at least from my point of view, for me, has been really helpful in claiming the process of of individuating first, like not jumping over that step and but anyway, it is interesting how I don't know where I land right now in this conversation, but I just, I'm pointing out, I think something really interesting got exposed here in this, in this part of the conversation around the desire for me to see you, and for you to see yourself as an authority, and then what it reveals about me and my own motivation as an image type, and then your resistance to seeing yourself as an authority, but or or in any particular self image that exposes you as like Being, I don't know what, like a source of expertise or something like that, but also the, you might say, kind of actual truth of what you're saying, which is that it kind of ultimately doesn't matter Anyway, because it's all presence or something like that. And of,
Courtney Smith 1:32:24
well, I, you know, I, um, you know, when I lead these groups, for example, and I, for whatever reason, I have a, there's why I have a group with a lot of female aides.
You know, I, I'll teach a concept, and then I we have an exercise that I've created or taken from somewhere that or combination, to sort of have a visceral experience of what I'm talking about and an emotional experience of what I'm talking about. And my experience is that the best way for me to facilitate that group is to actually do the exercise on myself live and to model the potential of the exercise before I give it to someone else to do
and I
right? That requires a, you know, some vulnerability, right, to be a teacher, and then to sort of all of a sudden switch, and then, like, take an exercise and like, talk about your kid and how it's driving you crazy, or, you know, whatever else it is, and so, but the feedback I've gotten is that that's an actually pretty interesting way to lead. And so, you know, I guess I'm more comfortable with this idea of authority, but what? But in an interesting, playful, subversive way. What does it mean to be an authority who doesn't know? Yeah, that's
Josh Lavine 1:34:08
cool. This is Yeah, kind of constructing, deconstructing, reconstructing the word authority itself,
Courtney Smith 1:34:18
yeah, yeah, yeah. And I do think that whole, you know, that ping pong energy of the six, for me, some of this is the law of three is actually, there's another. There's a deeper level of truth that holds both of the pink, like both both the polarities, and when I find myself resisting a word or a concept or saying, I am this, no, I'm not that like that to me, is a sign that there's there's something else above one higher level that's worth what is the thing that makes this no longer an opposition? Do. A student, teacher, expert, newbie, to know, not know. And can I actually reside in that?
Josh Lavine 1:35:12
Yeah, and that feels like the what it means to be present in the mental center is the is the openness and ability to embrace those construct aware paradoxical, kind of seemingly contradictory truths or these kinds of things.
Courtney Smith 1:35:32
Yeah, yeah,
Josh Lavine 1:35:35
I got a little head. You don't say I
Courtney Smith 1:35:43
but it's true also. I mean, you know, like people will give me compliments, and I will diffuse those. And, you know, all the, all the things that we sixes like to do, and I'm and I'm married to a three, and so that's a very healthy relationship for me to have, and to be both attracted and repelled by his willingness to take up space and willingness to claim who he is. So, yeah, I think that three, six thing is really it's a good it's very fruitful for me. Yeah, so
Josh Lavine 1:36:34
I feel like I could ask you, I literally have hours more questions for you, but why don't we come to a close? What has this been like for you? For you?
Courtney Smith 1:36:47
It's mostly been funny.
Yeah, I've been I've enjoyed it. It's been curious. It's been enjoying that it doesn't feel linear.
What's it been like for you?
Josh Lavine 1:37:13
Yeah, also funny and also non linear. And yeah,
one thing that's coming up for me right now, actually is I feel like,
how do I say this? I feel like there are certain questions that I had or that I wanted to ask around, like, or actually, let me put it this way, the feeling that some of the questions we posed in the beginning, like clarifying or justifying these words, like authority or guidance, or whatever these kinds of things. I feel like somehow those were like, somehow in this conversation, those words didn't get like unpacked as these like discrete symbols. But I feel like there's some way that they're pervading the atmosphere of this conversation, and maybe I would like to before we close, just circle back on that for a second. Is there, is there any other, any other words or clarity that you would want to bring to those words that you read that originally kind of you didn't identify with when you read them as a person trying to discover your Enneagram type and rejecting that you were six.
Courtney Smith 1:38:54
I think it's interesting. I think for me, the word support, and like looking for support, it just sounded so stupid, you know, it like sounded like there's these other it felt like the the the essential quality that all these other types were looking For felt like deeper to me, freedom, you know, value, love, like, support, like, like, sounds like a bra, you know, it just is, just like, ridiculous, like, like, and so, so ironically, I really only understood it, or came to some understanding of it through body work and and getting actually, like support is like, maybe the best word we have. Maybe there's a better word in a different language, but it is, it is like a foundation. I'm looking for foundation. I'm looking for orientation. And I'm looking for a feeling of that landed, grounded this, it is, it is a it, it is, for me, it's, it's a bodily essential quality, interesting, and that then is pervasive, like affects everything else
Josh Lavine 1:40:22
that is that has given me a lot to think about. Yeah, anyway, that tracks. That really tracks
Courtney Smith 1:40:34
so, so for me now I understand that. I think there's deep meaning actually to that word in a way that I didn't understand six years ago. And ironically, my understanding of that meaning, the depth of that word, has only come through work that I've done to internally, regain that quality and to not it's like, as long as I was continuing to believe that it was outside of myself, it always had sort of a flatness to it, and then it was, like, the moment that I had a reference point that was internal. Oh, this is what they're talking about. Now, I get it. That's good, yeah, the minute I was able, and not that I can, like, continually source that on my own, but like, I've had reference points where I have a feeling of being deeply supported by reality and reality manifesting through me. And I've I've had that, that that experience I can't lose it now, even if, even as it is fleeting, I have a memory of it, and so that's been a process for me. I think what's interesting about the words, and I'm learning something as I say, this loyalty, duty and responsibility, which are three other big words for the six. It's interesting to think about those, I think, as in terms of identity. And, you know, I, I am in a process of sort of doing. I mean, we're always doing work. But I do think this, this heart opening and exploration around the heart is is coming for me, and has been coming for me for a while in terms of my own growth. And so it's it's interesting to think about
those words. Can i Those words have a lot of juice for me? And object relations? And I think it's interesting to think about them as identity structures, as a ways of, you know, because as a six I tend to think of myself as, you know, like, I'm less interested in, like, who am I? Yeah, you know, that's yeah. I get it. I get whatever. But like, it's more interested in, what do I do in this world? How do I make my way and navigate? Yeah,
Josh Lavine 1:43:10
that's, I'm so glad you put your finger on that, because that's something that I think I could feel it in a murky way in this conversation, but I was something that was really striking to me about our entire conversation was that there's this tension. Is almost like I kept trying to bring the focus back to you and who you are and what your experience of yourself is. And it's almost like the conversation kept going into these more expansive I don't want to call it mental, because I think that it's that's not quite the quality of what I'm talking about. But talking about, but it was like the diffusion of your identity into these into the web of complexity and knowledge that you are investigating. It's like that's where your attention tends to go, not necessarily on yourself. And so that's a very interesting dynamic to have in this conversation. It's like, this is a conversation. The title of the show is, what is what is it like to be you, or what it's like to be you and and it seems that what it's like to be you is that your your attention, your energy and attention tends to be directed, for the most part, away from you, to these well, to the to your areas of interest, to your relationships, and these kinds of things.
Courtney Smith 1:44:26
Yeah, I'm interested in what, what the fuck am I doing here? And there's a mental component to that, yeah, yeah. But I do feel like the way for me is like, if the answer of who I am
feels to me like it is emerges from, will naturally arise from
Josh Lavine 1:44:58
the decisions, yeah, and that's a. Good contrast between a metal type and an image type right there. It's that's, I mean, obviously I my attention goes to there too, but it is tends to have more of a center of gravity on myself and who I am and what what I'm doing means about me and what it reflects about me, yeah, which is, yeah, that
Courtney Smith 1:45:19
would be super interesting to talk more about. Yeah, I mean, and I think the fact that I have such resistance to it means there's, like, an area of there's, there's probably work for me there,
but
yeah, I tend to think that I'll get into trouble if I put that question first.
Josh Lavine 1:45:42
Yeah, that makes sense.
It's really, it's just so fun to talk to you, and I'm really enjoying this a lot, but we should come to a close. So thank you for doing this. And I'll just, I'll just reiterate that. Yeah, I really do. I think that your contributions to this field have been so profound and and I know that I my senses, they're only just beginning, and so I'm really excited to see what else comes. And I'm looking forward to many more conversations.
Courtney Smith 1:46:16
Yeah, I feel the same way. I'm excited to do this with you also. And, yeah, looking forward to
Josh Lavine 1:46:22
talk. Sounds good. Okay, thanks. You.
