Kelly 0:00
You know, obviously I really love my children, but I don't know how to be that. And I would like to be that. I would like to be more that, but like getting there, I don't know how welcome to
Josh Lavine 0:18
another episode of what it's like to be you. I'm Josh Lavine. Your host today. My guest is Kelly ayati. Kelly is a social, sexual five, wing, 6512, tri fix. And I want to set this conversation up from the point of view of the passion of the five. The word avarice and avarice does not mean greed like it means in current vernacular, the passion of the five avarice, points to something that we call the withholding of the self, the habitual, like the feeling of a deficiency of self, where if myself contacts the world, then I'll be depleted or destroyed, or something like that. So this conversation brought up some new ways for me to understand avarice, in particular, the way that Kelly habitually doesn't realize that she's not entering other people's frames, that other people are coming into her frame, but she's not really entering other people's frames. That happens in her relationship with her partner, and sometimes with her kids as well. And it's not just that she's not meeting them in their framing, but that the emotional distance that she would have to travel to do that feels unavailable to her, and also in the way that she can struggle to contact herself in the moments, like what is happening with her felt sense, somatic experience right now, and the way that she's able to understand herself in retrospect, conceptually by, for example, thinking of what's going on with her one fix or two fix. But the holistic right now experience of herself tends to be lucid for her. So on that note, I'm very grateful to Kelly for having this conversation with me and for opening and unpacking some of the territory that we got to I was pretty surprised at how vulnerable this conversation got. I think this conversation really exposes some of the heart and the suffering of the five in a way that I was really moved by. And we explore a lot about what's going on in her relationship, she being a rejection type, and her partner a nine being an attachment type, as well as her relationship with being a mother. I think this conversation is really good from the point of view of showing the unconscious way that fives hold a sense of their own independence and separateness. So there's a lot there. And again, thank you, Kelly for having this conversation with me and trusting me with this. And without further ado, here she is. Would it be cool for you to do this in a kind of life story way? I've found that doing that is useful because there's lots of little cul de sacs we can kind of enter into.
Kelly 2:50
Uh huh, sure, yeah. You want to know about LITTLE KELLY do? Yeah?
Josh Lavine 2:54
Yeah.
Kelly 2:56
You know, one of the biggest things I've noticed looking back is I probably seemed a lot more like you would expect a five to be in elementary school. I never like my parents. Had parent teacher conferences every year about how much I don't speak, don't engage, don't and in modern times, they probably would have assessed me, but back then, that wasn't really a thing. They just wondered if something was wrong at home, and my parents were like, she's perfectly normal. I don't know what you're talking about, and what I've realized is I just really wasn't interested, like, I didn't understand why we have to do life, like, why we have to go to school. Why do I have to talk to these people about things I'm not interested in. I don't know them. I don't I just had no interest in, really, what my part was there, like, why am I in school? Why do I have to do these things? And it got better, as you know, I got into middle school, junior high, high school, because there were a wider range of topics, things I could be interested in and was interested in, and that kind of like, opened me up to, I guess, you know, finding that, oh, this is what it is like, I can talk to anyone, and I'm fairly comfortable in most cases, as long as it's something that I'm actually into, I just don't want to talk about stuff that's not worth talking about to me,
Josh Lavine 4:46
yeah, yeah. And what, what was, what were you into? What was little Kelly,
Kelly 4:53
I was interested in languages from that's also came up last time that I. Right, yes, yes. Just in Kmart as a kid, I made my mom buy me this Portuguese learning book because and I've I studied French in high school, and then I studied Arabic and University, and I'm learning Spanish currently. I can't really speak any of them at this point. Well, I still like understand, but it's been so many years since I've used a lot of it. But it does. It helps me in my work. I actually, part of my work is actually with refugees and getting them services that they need. And so between all the languages, I can kind of understand them and what they're saying and at least say enough that we can kind of muddle through right?
Josh Lavine 5:52
Let's, let's do this in a context, setting kind of way. So your current line of work is, can you explain? What is that you do?
Kelly 5:59
Well, I'm a Program Analyst for the Department of Human Services, and basically, you know, whether it's healthcare or food stamps or other services, I basically try to make sure everybody gets those services in a timely manner. And currently, my position is kind of currently like taking all the messed up cases as well, because our state just decided we were going to end the public health emergency without any longer transitional period. And you know, probably, probably 60,000 people lost health care, lost benefits, and it has really a larger effect than what people realize. I actually know, you know somebody who had been clean for two years who has borderline personality that couldn't get their medications and they ended up relapsing. And, you know, there's real world consequences.
And I guess this is kind of how my two fix kind of works for me is,
I do want to be this helpful person, but it's not like hands on, like with people in direct contact again, that five is kind of staying back here and doing it in the background,
Josh Lavine 7:40
because the nature of Your work is you have you take calls with people. I did interview people, and you and you help them navigate the fine print of various laws and benefit programs to help them get
Kelly 7:52
what's kind of it's kind of like being a case worker and a little bit of an attorney, because you have to know the legal aspects and the policy and the federal guidelines and a little bit of an accountant, because you also have to run the budgets and see if they financially qualify and make sure those numbers are correct.
Josh Lavine 8:14
Yeah, I'm taking a breath real quick, and I'm thinking, so I want to put some anchor points down in our conversation. So we have this work thing that is in itself interesting from the point of view of five the way that you approach your work, your expertise in your work, which is you mentioned, has been recognized by like you're sort of the expert. You have, almost like an encyclopedic memory for some of these fine print things, yes. And we also have your relationship, which is interesting from the point of view of attachment and rejection, because your partner is a nine, right? Yes,
Kelly 8:58
yeah. And then
Josh Lavine 9:01
there's also just something that's fascinating to me, is the journey of you finding yourself in this line of work, which was a total left turn and surprise for you, right? Yeah? Well,
Kelly 9:14
I started out in terrorism, terrorism research, when I right, graduated, and that was actually kind of an in the basement, you know, I'm just combing through media reports and federal databases, and I can't say too much about it, because I have a huge non disclosure thing. But, you know, that was just a lot of combing through. Because sometimes, you know, just because a bomb went off in a mailbox, it could have been personal. The person's wife cheated, and so he was actually getting revenge on that level, instead of it actually being like a terroristic act. Um. So that's kind of where I started, and I think it worked for me at that stage of my life, because I think a big part of me is not being comfortable unless I really know what I'm doing. And once I know what I'm doing, I'm absolutely confident. There's no like I know I'm the best at what I do. And so, you know, at that stage in my life, I wasn't really sure I actually had been a professional student for a while. I actually have almost five degrees,
Josh Lavine 10:37
yeah, can you just list them? What are they?
Kelly 10:40
Anthropology. So she, I do have a sociology degree and a criminology degree, but I'm like about a semester short of having anthropology MIDI stutter studies in Arabic. Yeah. So, yeah, yeah. And I kind of started out with anthropology, and I think this goes back kind of tying into little Kelly, yeah. And like, I didn't understand why the world works. And I remember, you know, asking my parents very young, like, why do we have a monetary system? Why do we have to live this way? Like, I didn't understand why we had to live under this these rules and these structures. And
Josh Lavine 11:23
just to get a sense, how old were you? Do you remember how old you were when you were asking those kinds
Kelly 11:28
of questions? I asked about the money, I think, when I was about five, and then when I was eight, I started asking about religion and why that was a thing, and why we couldn't have different beliefs, then, yeah, it's always been a question. And I think for me, it's like, I still don't understand, like, how things work, like why people do the things that they do, and it's still kind of an issue with my family, for that matter, but, and this kind of goes into when I picked anthropology, my family was just like, What? What is that? What are you even going to do with that? What? And I didn't really know. And then I ended up actually having children being married, and I actually ended up homeschooling my kids for quite a few years until my marriage ended, kind of in trauma, and I kind of went back to school, mainly because I didn't know how to do life like I didn't know what I wanted to do, who I was, if I wanted to I knew I wanted to understand people. But outside of that, I I didn't know how to do, I guess, the SP type things, because I'm SP blind, I guess, and like, going to school was kind of a way that my parents wouldn't be, or my brother wouldn't be, or other people, you know, that's like, something respectable to do. And so it was kind of me doing my own path without having to deal with the outside noise of those relationships.
Josh Lavine 13:14
I'm tracking a couple things. So first of all this, you mentioned the the people orientation of your two fix, and also one wing two, and also social, sexual. So there's a lot of energy in your typing that is directed at other human beings, and also this core fiveness, which is sort of private, and I love this word, another five I was talking to recently gave, said that we gave the word uncooperative, which I love, and yeah, certain, just not buying into, yeah, I
Kelly 13:51
actually what's here, not really being close with my family. I mean, we weren't not close. But, you know, I just did my own thing, and to me going back to school was kind of that, like, it's they weren't going to be messing with me, because they're like, well, she's finishing school, she's trying to get somewhere. Oh yeah.
Josh Lavine 14:12
Was that like, a big part of your conscious or unconscious motivation to do that?
Kelly 14:18
Just, I don't realize it. I didn't realize it at the time, but, like, as I was I was graduating, I was like, you know, a lot of this has just been my way of not dealing with those aspects, like I'm doing my thing. This is how I want to live my life, and it's still very much that dynamic within my family especially, I think like my children get me, my partner gets me, but like my family of origin still thinks like, Are you doing anything with your life? Yeah, I don't think they didn't understand homeschooling my children, they didn't understand i. That I actually don't care about having all these things and doing things a particular way. And, yeah, yeah. So yeah, I do think they probably think I'm not very cooperative. And And also, there's the aspect where, like I I don't reach out. I am very private in that way of I'm not going to share my issues. I'm not going to go to my family and say, oh, you know, I'm not where I need to be, because I'm going through this and having these issues, like I take care of all those things, or I think I can anyway by myself, and always have, in some ways, and it's gotten pretty destructive at points in life.
Josh Lavine 15:51
Yeah, an image is coming to me that I've thought of before, with respect to five. It's almost like you're you
Unknown Speaker 16:00
let's see
Josh Lavine 16:03
how to put it. It's like, it's kind of like you're living life inside, like a submarine with a periscope that is directed in towards things that your instinctual stacking is moving it towards so, like, I'm thinking about anthropology, I'm thinking about languages and these areas of fascination, and it's kind of like you're like, you're in graduate school programs, you're in school, You're technically in the world, but in a certain way, not really, you know, you're sort of, I've behind it. Yeah,
Kelly 16:46
I've, I've kind of described it like, either like being a drone operator, or kind of like the matrix or something. But I think maybe the drone operator where it's like, I'm navigating life through this, not me, me, right, right, right, yeah, it's
Josh Lavine 17:07
so I'm thinking about, Okay. I'm thinking about where we are in this conversation. And I have some energy towards the like, I'm still fascinated by little Kelly, and what little Kelly was interested in and not being, not buying into or just participating in what was sort of given at school.
Kelly 17:26
Yeah, I think also little Kelly was a little bit feral. That's interesting, and part of it is, some of that is generational, that latch key kids, and my dad was self employed and worked, you know, 7080, 100 hour weeks. And my mom was emotionally not stable, and kind of without boundaries. You know, I had to also, at a young age, like, kind of tell her, like, I don't really want you touching me that much, because she was kind of intrusive. Possibly a two or at least two fixed as well, but very intrusive type of, you know, I also, I think maybe first grade, kindergarten, first grade, I had to tell her, like I'm old enough to brush my own hair and put my own clothes on. You know, I think she very much was I lived through your children mother, and I really pushed back against that. And I kind of stayed outside and not even necessarily being that into being outside, it just got me away. And as I got closer to my teen years, we had a room. They called it the music room. And my family was all very musical. My brother was probably has some level of musical genius, and my mom has a voice that's heaven sent, and my dad kind of produced, and they played music and did performances, and I just always did my own thing, because that was not my thing.
Josh Lavine 19:21
Yeah, practically speaking, you didn't learn an instrument. You didn't care to participate.
Kelly 19:26
My they did actually make me take piano lessons for quite a few years, but I hated, it's not, not my thing. And I finally, at a certain age, was just like, No, I'm not going to do this. I don't like it. It's not me,
Josh Lavine 19:39
is it just you and your brother? Siblings? Yes, yes, right, okay,
Kelly 19:44
yeah. And I don't know, they're all very boisterous people. You know, he was like, in band and choir and jazz band and theater and like, all the things. And I was just not into any of those things. So, yeah. Yeah, I kind of ended up just anyway, this room in the house, like after my brother had moved out, because he's older, just kind of as teenage me became my space. I just would go in there and dance I do dance. Dance is more, I guess, my artistic outlet. And so I would just go in there and play music and dance and do my thing. So, yeah, yeah, and then I left home at 17 and never went back, just until recently, my parents are now elderly, and my mom has dementia and facility. So, so this is, I never went like, I never went back home. Like,
Josh Lavine 20:50
to visit. No, I
Kelly 20:52
visited. Okay. I didn't just like, x naue, them off the earth. No, okay, okay. But I just never, I guess, you know, I did, I just did my own thing, and they I guess maybe in my 30s, I did have a conversation with my parents, because they still thought like, I'm not really grounded. They don't know what I'm doing or where I'm going. And I had some bad relationships, and I just had to tell them, like, you know, I'm actually not unhappy. I'm okay doing being alone, doing my thing, like, I don't need the house and the picket fence and all of these things. I don't even mind being poor. You know, as long as I can basically survive, I right, it's just not what I value. And they were like, oh, okay, don't really get it. They still kind of are shaking their heads, but, but they were like, Okay, well, we won't worry about you. Then, uh huh, yeah.
Josh Lavine 22:01
So this doing your own thing, thing is a pretty big theme, I would say, throughout your entire life, and starting with the language fascination as a kid. And I guess I'm wondering like, what is what is your thing, or what are your things? What's What, Where has your attention found itself? Yeah, good. I
Kelly 22:27
mean, it really is about understanding, like cultures, and I've also been into astrology and MBTI and all the things that are kind of about personalities and why and how we work. And to me, the language part is there's patterns in languages, and even how, like English used to have more similar patterns to other languages, but that's kind of been like par down over time to where English is kind of more like simple and shortened and and other languages have not done that so much. And I think there's reasons for that, as far as our cultures, and you know, whether you're more expressive or putting more into life, or, you know, kind of the American we need to get this done. Let's make it quick. Let's shorten it type feeling. And so I'm just really interested in all of these aspects of of living and
and it's all that like, I think, even in my relationship, and maybe that's kind of that Five two thing, of like digging in of that, I also want that in my relationship of understanding, like, what are you feeling? What are you thinking? Why are you doing that? Why did you make this other choice? Yeah, it vexes him. Especially, he's a five, he's a 953, so he's actually very reserved in what he's going to share on any level. And yeah, I fix him.
Josh Lavine 24:33
Let's, let's go there in that direction. So yeah, because I guess, in my own words, what you're saying is you are. Your fascination with languages and anthropology has a kind of macroscopic scale to it, but that same sensibility exists in your relationship, which is like, what's the sort of emotional. Logic, for lack of a better word, behind this person's actions, it's sort of like, what's the well, I
Kelly 25:07
guess, like, I, I kind of want to, like, bring it in and dig more into, like, all this stuff is going on on this macro level, but how is it working in the individual as well. And I kind of, I guess I want to be able to tie that together. I haven't found all the pieces to tie that together, so I keep trying to. So like, when you're together,
Josh Lavine 25:32
here's an interesting one, like, when you're questioning your husband about that, is it is there? How do I say this? I'm going to paint this question like a like a polarity, but it might not be this black and white. But is the question coming more from that place of curiosity, trying to find these universal answers to how humans are with him as a sort of specimen, or is it something more in the dimension of like, really trying to understand him and your relationship dynamic and holding him as a like, as a person? That's what I'm saying. It's
Kelly 26:15
probably both. And I've actually gotten feedback that that's part of the difficulty. Is that I do think there is an aspect where it's like, I'm always socially experimenting, yeah, and all of my relationships, and in how I talk about them and frame them, that they're kind of a specimen. And I think I don't know he and I have had some recent conversations, because we have been talking about the Enneagram and typing and how we work together, where he has actually started going, Okay, well, he's been able that's helped him to open up about like, this is what bothers me, which has really been helpful. And that's part of it is, that's the most difficult aspect of our relationship is as a nine, especially, he really needs to feel that I'm all in and that I'm seeing him. And I don't think he always gets that from me. Yeah, yeah.
Josh Lavine 27:19
So you know I'm I am fascinated by how much your attention goes to your relationship, and how you talk about your relationship a lot. And it is, obviously, it's a major part of your life and your and your world, and let's see, it's still part of this interesting kind of polarity or tension that you have in your typing structure, right? There's so much energy that goes towards social and relationships, but also there's this like, very important to you, private self that you maintain as a separateness, even in the context of that relational orientation, and that is part of the tension that you're describing in your relationship. So I wonder if you have more texture around that or what? Yeah, what? What else comes up there?
Kelly 28:13
What else comes up here? I think it's for me, I have something else we talked about, just very few people in my life that I actually feel close enough to really work on trying to maintain a relationship, my children, my partner, and on some level, my parents and brother, my brother is very contentious relationship. I don't, I'm not really invested in keeping it outside of the care of my parents, really. But those are, like, the main relationships in my life, and they're like, they are my life. I don't, you know, I don't go out to dinners or with friends, really, or go play soccer or whatever, to the gym people do. That is just the center. And I I think maybe some of all the exploration is trying to figure out how to connect myself on a more real level with them that I haven't quite figured out. And I think there's also a part of me that, like I have a an idea, an ideal, an idea in my head of like, how I want, from everyday life to the big picture to look like I can see like I want my relationship to have these aspects, and then when they're not happening, it's it gets really fresh. Trading for me, and that kind of makes me just go back to doing just me in a lot of cases, like I'm I'm not going to be moving towards and like, kind of difficult to compromise myself into. You know what? What other people need it to look like and be like, and see one
Josh Lavine 30:24
thing that's coming up for me is like, How so, how did you meet your partner? You're now partner. And what is it like?
Kelly 30:35
We yeah, we actually had, we had mutual friends online. We originally met online, but we had mutual friends that, in person, knew each other, went to high school together, and then went to high school with us. And I don't they invited me into a political debate group, and I actually ended up becoming an admin in the political debate group, and he was an admin as well, and we were just friends for years, several years, just around politics. And politics is actually his interest in history. That's kind of his thing. And I ended up at that time period being involved again, because I have Muslim background. And so during that time period, post 911 I was kind of somebody that could speak to the other side, when most people don't have a lot of experience with that. And so that's kind of how I ended up in that group and meeting him, and he actually kind of tried to defend me a lot, because some of the people in the group, it was like a mosh pit. It was not like a let's all be nice talking thing. And so, you know, he was an admin, and would be like, Okay, I'm gonna ban you. You can't talk to this woman this way. And I was like, I don't actually need you to defend me, you know. And so we ended up talking on that level. At the time he was married.
Josh Lavine 32:14
Wait just real quick. So that defending thing did that. So I'm interested in and why I don't? Was it? Well, no, it's, I hear you that you don't need it, yeah. Did it touch you in at all? Or was it more like amusing, or how did you place it?
Kelly 32:34
I just I it was kind of unnecessary. Was really the only thing I thought about it, you know? I mean, I understood why he was doing it, because some of the people were being, you know, these days it would not be able to be a comment on Facebook. It would just immediately knock it out. You know, you could still say it that
Josh Lavine 32:56
framing itself is interesting. I mean, I I'm thinking of myself as a heart type plus triple attachment, like, if someone rushes to my defense in some kind of way, I have a certain way of it means something to me. It's, you know, it's like, oh, that was really sweet. Thank you. But the, well, I
Kelly 33:15
mean, it is that? It that I don't really need people to do I didn't need him to do exactly yes, I was handling it perfectly fine on my own, because, and this also comes up in my work, my current work is I'm not going to get really like upset and ruffled. So, you know, if people are cussing at me or upset or whatever, I can just de escalate it and but on his end, that is actually what drew his attention. Was he was like, you were just coming back with facts and never getting upset that they were calling you names or being rude. He was like you were just like, oh, well, actually, as a Quran says, and putting it out there. And I was like, Well, you know, I don't really get engaged in the whole like debate thing. It's like, here's the facts, and pass that I'm out. I don't need to sit there and go back and forth with you and get personal or so that's kind of and at some point, he got divorced, and I wasn't in a relationship. So we both don't actually know how we got there, but just from, like, being friends, talking over all these years, I think maybe I don't know, we ended up on the phone one night, and he was like, Oh, I think you need a vacation. Do you want to come? He was living in Florida, so he was like, do you just want to come? Have a vacation? And he's like, you know, if it's not a thing, it's not a thing. If you know, you take one look at me and go. He's a serial killer. We can get you a hotel, whatever. So, yeah, I went to Florida for a week's vacation, and here we are.
Josh Lavine 35:12
How many years later? Now? 10? Yeah, yeah. So, can you describe what it's like, the the dynamic of being a rejection type and a relationship with an attachment type, and how that plays out?
Kelly 35:33
It's complicated. I and especially with his typing. It's complicated, because he doesn't really, I don't know, I end up kind of, I guess, being more the masculine energy, and he ends up being more the feminine energy in our relationship, because I'm so positioned in what I think this should look like, like, you know, I want things to be a certain way and, and this is the other thing we talked about, is like, we kind of have separate areas of the house. We each have a trend, and we kind of meet in the middle. And that kind of works for us, especially since we're both withdrawn types. Like, I can kind of go recharge, and he can kind of just go chill out.
Josh Lavine 36:22
And just to get some specifics here, so, like, your side of the house, and remember you mentioning is very neat, right? And clean,
Kelly 36:31
yes, it is. And his not all my areas are, but certain, yeah, he is a total mess. Like, okay, like, stuff everywhere, and a lot of it's just because he has so much stuff. You know, he's very strong. I If you could type somebody, SPS, PSP, I would. He's very, very oriented to that and grounded. And, you know, it's a plus to us. We compliment each other, I think in that way. You know, he was telling me last night, like he reloaded my drinks into the refrigerator, and he was like, Do you never think to do this? And I was like, well, it's just No, not really. I I know it's there, that if I have to drink it warm, I have to drink it warm. I, you know, it's not as much of a thing to me. So, yeah, but he does, do, you know, he does most of the cooking and reloads my drinks. And that's
Josh Lavine 37:35
a good example of something that we talked about, which is that, as I remember you, he, he needs, uh, some level of appreciation for these kinds of acts of service, like, it's what, it's one of his ways of showing love. And in a certain way, it doesn't, it's, it's one of, it's unnecessary for you. Yeah,
Kelly 37:57
yes, right. It's very This was actually the first part of our relationship. Was really, I actually didn't know what to do with it, because, you know, he would bring breakfast in bed and run bubble baths, and I was like, I I can bathe myself. I don't really need all this, you know, I need more, I guess, of the connection of you being able to talk to me and share your inner demons or or whatever. That's hard, and that's difficult for him to actually be comfortable enough and trust to start sharing. You know, this is what I'm really thinking and feeling and so yeah, but I actually have learned to appreciate, you know, we, he actually doesn't really do the breakfast in bed and all of that anymore. Um, he still does run me bass occasionally, and he does the cooking and most of the time. And, you know, we've kind of, I guess, balanced out where, and I, I really do appreciate, especially, like, right now I'm working, and he's kind of being a house husband. That's kind of a recent development, but he's actually kind of liking it. He's getting more comfortable with that being okay. I think because, you know, there is a lot of, again, cultural stuff around being the breadwinner, and, you know, I think it's been difficult for him to kind of know it's okay, and it's probably difficult. I'm I'm actually not an easy person. I'm a kind person and caring person, not easy to live with, you know, I'm like, Why did you spend this on that? I'm working this many hours and, you know, and there's like, I guess, a lot of competency just going into. So we need things to be working in this certain way and making this happen. And, you know, in nine land, three weeks later, he may be like, Oh, I did the thing. I'm like, Oh, congratulations. We did the thing. So yeah, it's very hard for me to be like, Okay, you did the one thing on the list out of 10. He that's difficult for me. It really is, yeah, and he's and I think to him though, he's feeling like he's doing all these things. And sometimes he is, but sometimes it's like he does part of that over there, and then he goes over there and cleans part of that. And, you know, it's nothing that's more solid, you know, I want, I want to see like something carried all the way through, I guess. And that's not always how it's happening.
Josh Lavine 41:05
And then what happens for you at an emotional level when,
Kelly 41:11
well, I just go back to, I might as well do it myself. Is what really happens with me. I'm most of my feelings are either, like fresh being frustrated, you know that this is not happening kind of the way I wanted it to, like I saw in my mind, it playing out, or, you know, sometimes it's worse when I'm disappointed, because I guess that is a more personal emotion in a way of, you know, I really thought that this was going to happen, and it just didn't.
Josh Lavine 41:52
Yeah, you know, one thing I'm tracking through our conversation is there's like, we've used the word uncooperative and stuff like that, but it's there's a there's a kind of independence that you have running through your life, or that underpins your sense of Self that is in a certain way, untouchable and in a certain way, that's what I'm looking for. It's kind of like, yeah, give me a second. I
I think what I'm struck by is the general emotional neutrality of your life, and even to the degree like the Facebook thing, people coming at you with names, and they're just being like, it doesn't, doesn't land on it doesn't ruffle does? It's like, yeah, that's just actually, you know,
Kelly 43:09
and I guess this is why I got so interested in the Enneagram too. Is because, at I never realized that it was a thing younger, I just was who I was. But being a little bit older and starting to kind of look at life and trying to actually, this is, like the first relationship I've really, I guess, been invested in trying to make it work, like, really, like, make it better and stronger, yeah, and so I started having to look at myself more and like my role and things. And it actually, it's become kind of strange to me, because I know exactly who I am. I know what I want, what I'm doing most of the time, where I'm going. I uh, but I'm so uncomfortable with, like, trying to really connect on a different level, or get out of my space and my thing, like, I don't, I'm kind of clueless how to, like, kind of try to bridge that,
Josh Lavine 44:20
yeah, like this word that you've been using unnecessary, it keeps that's like, my whole organism is wrapped around that word, for some reason, because it's, it's like, it's like, the whole like, asking you, for example, is that touching? It's like, that's not even on the playing field because, because, like, this unnecessary, this, like, the the inner place that unnecessary has to come from is a certain so far removed from the like, relational, connected.
Kelly 44:57
I think this is why my brother and I. Such a contentious relationship. I think he's probably a social DOM six, maybe a 614, actually, but, yeah, but he's very kind of, he's very big energy and very but he's also very negative. And to me, I think it's, it doesn't matter whether it's way positive or way negative, both of those aspects bother me. But he's always kind of, you know, I was being a proud mom. My son got first chair in trombone. So I was just telling my brother this, because he's a musician, I thought it would be a common topic. And I was like, but of course, you know, it just kind of like, want, want, because he had just started, and my brother was just like, oh, well, that's all trombones ever do. It was such an unnecessary thing to me. I'm like, why be unnecessarily that negative about something that's not a negative thing. And I think I even feel that way about like, some positive things, like people that are like, unnecessarily, yeah, I had, actually, she's a superior in my office, but oh my gosh, she must be triple positive. Yeah, she just comes in, going, oh my god, on Monday morning, being like, oh my god, we're like, one step closer to Friday. And I'm like, that is also unnecessary. I haven't had my coffee yet. I just yeah, why? So yeah, it's not Yeah, yeah. It is a very like, can't we just work within this area, instead of having to go into all of these other things that,
Josh Lavine 46:52
yeah, this is giving me more texture around the word unnecessary, because it's almost like you're holding some kind of fantasy that the world could just take its emotional intensity and reduce it to a certain absolute value, so that we could just be within this band, and things would make a little more sense. There wouldn't be as much erratic Ness, there wouldn't be as
Kelly 47:16
much yes,
Josh Lavine 47:18
what else? What? Yeah, that fantasy, yeah.
Kelly 47:22
I mean, it kind of is that, like, what good is it doing? You know, like, we actually had, we actually had a client in the office last week. We actually had to call the police. But, you know, she, I mean, obviously you're upset when you're struggling, but she actually, like, reached through the lobby. You know, they have Plexiglas, whatever slots, but she actually reached through and, like, threw a person's computer on the floor and all the stuff off her desk, just screaming. And this is not going to help her get what she needs. You know, yes,
Josh Lavine 48:03
yeah. I relate to this in a certain way of being a competence type myself, like, that's not effective. It's not an effective Yeah, yeah.
Kelly 48:11
And i don't know i It's not like I never get angry or never get joyous. I do. But you know, just not in ways that are unnecessary,
Josh Lavine 48:34
joy within certain compounds only.
Kelly 48:38
Well, yes, you I'm not going to be joyous on a Monday morning that we're a step closer to Friday. That's no
Josh Lavine 48:43
listen. I hear you about
Kelly 48:46
that. That sounds she's something else, but it's also like even smaller things, because, and I know, you know, he's a nine wing eight, so he actually can really push some anger. You know, he being sorry. You're my my partner, yeah, your partner, yeah. And he's actually a pretty anger will come out of him, you know, a lot more than I think, with some nines that I've known. My daughter is also a nine wing, eight, my middle daughter, and, you know, but she's got a seven fix, so she's a little more kind of fantasy fun, still really withdrawn, but he's five fixed, and he's kind of just, I don't know he just, he walked out of the house yesterday because I Vex him. This is why I was saying that. He actually told me he actually, he asked why in previous relationships I hadn't been murdered, because I'm very vexing. Okay. Yeah, okay. And then he went, then he went for a walk,
Josh Lavine 50:05
yeah, okay, yeah. And, well, not to, I mean, I have a sense that I know the answer this question. But did that, did that statement or a question from him land in you in any particular way, or was it also, yeah?
Kelly 50:19
I was No. I was like, well, you would have to ask them that I don't know. Yeah,
Josh Lavine 50:25
right. Well, why they because obviously you're not, yeah, I get it. You're not the person whose perspective it would be coming from. So that's not a question that's relevant to
Kelly 50:36
me. Yes. I mean, if you're asking if I know that I'm difficult then, yes, I do get that at this point in my life. I and I know it's it's not meant to be selfish, but I know it can really be that, because I'm not going to give you, and I know he posted a Facebook in the Facebook group while he was the short time he was in Enneagram or universe group, a video talking about how, like, if I'm on my phone doing something, and he comes up and wants to talk, I'm like, Well, I'm reading, we can't do this now. You and he's like, but if I'm talking to him, he's expected to put his phone down, and that's right, yeah, yes. And he's like, it's kind of like a roller coaster that you can't get off of, because once I start talking, I am doing my mental pinging thing, and I'm going to keep going until all the ideas are out and right, like, and as a nine, he's kind of, I know other people in the group were like, Why doesn't he have a choice? Because he was going, I don't have any choice but to just sit there and let her finish. Yeah. So it's kind of that
Josh Lavine 51:57
even, even the well, your your inner response to his question, why? Why didn't anybody else murder you? Is the is an example of that dynamic, in the sense that you're you're not actually buying into the frame of his question. You know, it's like you're so in order, in order for him to have a conversation with you, he has to go some emotional distance or intellectual distance, to meet you inside your frame, because you're not going to right do that in the reverse for him, right?
Kelly 52:32
And for me, I, I guess I also kind of find like the passive aggressive thing. And to me, it feels like you know, you're trying to guilt me into a response that I'm not going to have, right? And so that comes up between us quite a bit where he's not really necessarily realizing he's doing it, but like when he walked out yesterday, I was like, that's, that was, that's like, Oh, you're trying to make me feel like, oh, I need to come after you. I need to and I'm not going to chase you around the yard. We're grown ups. We can sit down and talk.
Josh Lavine 53:13
Yes, yeah. Well, one thing that you said that was pretty interesting and radical to me is that this is the first relationship in your life, that you felt like you really are efforting to make it work, and it's a consistent kind of commitment over a long term, and because you want it to work you, I'm assuming what that means is that you've had to make certain kinds of sacrifices that you would not have entertained in the context of other relationships, or you've had to entertain certain questions about the way you're being and, yeah, maybe become more flexible in certain kinds of
Kelly 53:51
ways. Or, yeah, it's more like, I don't know. I don't think I really had any difficulty in my previous relationships, as far as, like me getting along with them, like I can kind of take people as they are, I guess, with it within certain, you Know, obvious boundaries. But I just wasn't. I didn't, probably wasn't in the relationships for the right reasons in the first place. So it was just like, well, if, if you can't get along with me, then I'm just out like, there's no reason to be and, yeah, I finally just reached a point of realizing, like, oh, it's either I'm going to be alone or I'm actually going to have to look at myself and try to figure out how to do this differently than what I've always done it. And actually, my. Kids were really surprised that I got in this relationship. They said they pictured me, you know, meeting somebody in the retirement home at 76 and then marrying. Yeah. They Right, right? They didn't, I can see why, yeah, yeah. And so they're like, Wow, this is and luckily, they all like him, and they're all into trying to help me figure it out. Right? So
Josh Lavine 55:28
what have you learned? Or actually, that's not quite the right question. The what I'm what I'm getting at is, what are ways that you've found that you have flexed towards him in ways that you wouldn't have otherwise.
Kelly 55:46
Well, I don't know that I've made great strides in that, but I have learned to verbalize more like the words of affirmation that he needs. Yeah, right, right. That's been a big one of actually trying to remember to go, oh, wow, this looks great. Actually, my nine wing eight daughter has been kind of helping me. She did this when she was younger. She won something at school that I had no idea what it was about or what it meant. And she came home and she's like, Oh, I got this. And I was like, Oh, great. And she actually stopped me and went, No, Mom, this is really a big deal. I need you to get excited. And I was like, Oh, I didn't, yeah, I didn't realize. And so I was like, Oh, well, oh, I didn't know that it was such a big thing. So yeah, do we need to celebrate do something. Yeah, I can do it if I get it that if I can catch it. Yeah, I'm not being excited enough or not being there enough for the other person. But sometimes I do. I it's probably helpful to have somebody that will actually stop me and go, Hey, I know it's not a big thing to you, but it is to me, I actually need you to kind of step up here. And he's getting a little better at that part too. Of, and actually that's kind of a recent thing too. Of, he saw that one of the videos where it was like, You need to tell somebody that what bothers you, it was that marriage, at the divorce attorney saying that that's what happens in marriages, that people don't actually communicate, like, what's the problem? And so resentment builds up. So he's been working on that since then, and actually going well. It really bothers me. And the biggest thing that bothers him is that he always feels like I'm one foot out the door,
Josh Lavine 57:44
right? Yeah, I remember that. I remember you saying that phrase last time and it threatened me, yeah, yeah.
Kelly 57:53
And I don't really see myself as being one step out the door, but I think a lot of it is the boundaries, where, for me, I'm like, This is not behavior that I'm good with. So I and I'm not going to be okay with it, you know, kind of like the walking out of the house. I'm like, we're we. I am going to always pull it back to, why can't we just sit down and talk like I don't get this emotional outburst or and on the good side of this, though, because his previous marriage, I guess, was pretty volatile, where she was reactive. So you know, if he got frustrated through the remote, she'd be reacting back to that where I can just go, you know, I don't think that's helpful to fixing the TV problem. Why don't we just, you know? And he actually appreciates that aspect, that sure, yeah, you know, instead of me blowing it up into something even bigger and bigger and bigger, I just like, Okay, let's take it down and right. So it kind of, you know, it's not always a bad good thing. It's kind of, usually our strengths are also our weaknesses. Of course, yeah, yeah. And so there are good parts to just kind of being able to neutralize Yeah, that Yeah.
Josh Lavine 59:32
You know, one thing that's or one thing that was coming to me is in the example with your daughter, where she was like, actually, no, Mom, this is a big deal for me. It's, in a way, what she's doing or the way that I'm I'm the way that I'm making sense of how it lands for you is that she's helping you understand why her Re. Action isn't unnecessary, because inside her frame, this has a certain meaning to her, and she's inviting you into that frame. And the five rejection stances sort of to be Castle walled inside your own frame without entering others frames. And so that it's kind of an act of generosity to another person to enter their frame, you know? And in a sense, that's sort of the attachment reflex is like, Oh, this is important to you. Let me go. Let me go there. Let me meet you over there, right? And so that rejection thing that happens in both, well, all of your relationships, I imagine, but I'm sensing that theme, really, in both of the with your partner and with your daughter,
Kelly 1:00:45
right? As you're described there, yeah, well, they're probably the closest to people to me, not just because of their personality structures, but my son is. My other two children are just very much in their own lives as well. Yeah,
Josh Lavine 1:01:04
you know how many kids you have? Three total, three,
Kelly 1:01:07
yes, yeah. Three, yeah. And my older daughter is, she's probably a hippie burnout type, I would assume, but she kind of lives semi off grid, way out. And we do visit, you know, and occasionally, but she has children, and is kind of doing her life over there. And then my son is also, he has his own Domino's store, so he's also working like 70 hour weeks, and so I only see him in passing as well. Yeah, they're just kind of and she's not that. She's not busy. She's a dog groomer. But she also will go like six weeks. We don't really talk to each other, but then when she calls, it's like, we talk for three hours, yeah? And I think some of that is like she really gets into her seven fix sometimes too, and it's just she talks so fast and so like,
Josh Lavine 1:02:17
yeah, and is that I'm curious about your relationship with being a mom and the demands that life forms have on you. And
Kelly 1:02:28
that is the other thing that came up is that she actually, recently, in our conversation, told me, like, well, you know, you weren't really a nurturing mother. And I was aware of that. I was like, I you know, but she's also, she has been typed by EU, so she's kind of familiar. And she was like, I understand, you know why? And there were good parts. But she also, I guess, said that as a child, like, she felt kind of went overachiever for a while. She actually went to school for biology and was really pushing perfection on a like, Oh, I I got 100% instead of 102 level being upset. And I was like, Why are you pushing so hard? But she was explaining the other night that, like, she didn't want to put anything else on my plate, like, oh, like she was looking at me as a single mom and going to school and like, trying to do and she was like, I didn't want to put anything else on you. So that actually hit me. That was difficult for me, that no, again, there's good and bad. I think the good part is my children are very independent. You know, they probably had no choice but to, you know, figure out, because, you know, if they got a boo boo, I didn't just run over there and be like, Oh my gosh. Are you okay? I was like, is it bad? And they kind of joke that, you know, you had to be bleeding or a bone sticking out or whatever, to get a reaction on that level. But they also had a voice. I think, you know, it never bothered me for them to speak, to give their view of things, even if it kind of bordered on disrespectful, because, you know, my generation, you didn't speak. You were very deferring to elders. And so I think, like the positive side is, is they've always been able to speak to me and tell me, you know, this is what's going on when they did get in trouble as teenagers, they weren't afraid to call me. They knew I wasn't going. React and blow up, and, you know, be reactive like that. So, you know, they would always be like, oh gosh, I drink and I'm stuck, and I need you to save me, and I would come get them, and it wouldn't be like a big ordeal. And I know with my parent, my parent, my parents always told me that we could talk to them, but they didn't really mean that they would blow up. It would be right,
Josh Lavine 1:05:26
yeah, yeah. Are you willing to share a little more texture about what was hard hearing that from your daughter, that about not being nurturing? Yeah? I
Kelly 1:05:44
I really that also gets to a very difficult area for me. I don't sure,
you know, obviously, I really love my children, but I don't know how to be that. And I would like to be that. I would like to be more that, but like getting there,
I don't know how, and, you know, I'm okay, like my hippie burnout, maybe daughter, you know, she'll just like, run up and hug me. So I don't, I don't think she since she was the one engaging that I don't know that she got that as much as my other daughter, who probably needed me to step towards her more.
And I don't know, I mean, it's difficult to I do feel like I left a hole in their life of something that they should have had. And I'm like, maybe, you know, it's something we can work on in our going forward life where, yeah, you know, I can be a little bit more hands on affectionate, and I have been trying to do that, at least we don't live close. They both. My daughters live in a different state. It's close, like, four or five hour drive, but, you know, even just talking to them in text, trying to put a little more heart emojis into a little more, you know, like, Oh, I love you. And, you know, I hope you're doing well, type right things that I wouldn't normally do. Because, you know, sometimes it's like, my daughter wrecked her car in the first she was texting, but she was like, I told totaled my car. And my first response was, was it your fault? Before I stopped and went, Oh, you're actually supposed to say, are you okay, right? Yeah. Like, and so I don't know. The best part is, I've started to catch myself more like I think the more I get aware, the more I kind of go, oh, wait, I shouldn't have gone there. That's not the right thing. I should actually be asking if your head's still on her airbag. Did below. I did ask her after that was like, oh and yeah, yeah.
Josh Lavine 1:08:21
It's as I'm hearing you talk. I can well, I can feel there is I can feel the a certain sense of the emotional texture of this has a more heightened flavor than some of the other topics we've explored. And so I can feel kind of your sincerity in wanting this, and I also can see your competence orientation to it, like the kinds of phrases that you put in a text message and the sequence of questions that you ask after a catastrophe and things like that, yeah, yeah,
Kelly 1:08:58
yeah. It just, it really does not come naturally to just not be me, you know, like, I don't know how to step out of that. And I guess there's probably frustration in me at this point in my life too, because I'm in my 50s, so I've had quite a bit of life experience and seen where things have not, and been able to compare, I guess, with more people, and see learn more. And it's, it's still just kind of interesting to me and kind of that social experiment thing, but I think for the first time in my life, I'm actually kind of like wanting to try to develop that other piece, to try to kind of integrate something a little bit more to where I do have better relations with the people in my life. Life, and, you know, don't make them feel like they can't be nurtured by me, or, you know that I don't have that, or can't do it, or not have whatever else they might need. Like
Josh Lavine 1:10:19
It, it occurs to me to ask something like, what's your what's your relationship with having been nurtured, or the sense of wanting that or that mattering to you in some way, like when you were really young?
Kelly 1:10:39
Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think part of me, I didn't find my mom competent enough to nurture me. I think in the way that I needed nurtured, she was affectionate, like, hug you, love you, but I didn't actually want that. She was actually too handsy for me. It was, it felt very intrusive, yeah, yeah. But on the other hand, she couldn't emotionally be there, like if I had a problem. You know, she was very also, I guess, wrapped up. And you know, when you get older, you understand the reasons why. But you know, she was going through menopause, and thought my dad was cheating, and she had all this her own stuff that was all her focus. And she wasn't very like, easy to deal with, to talk to. She was she was also very volatile, and probably part of that unnecessary thing too, that in a different time back then, a lot of it would probably be child abuse today, but you know, she would just like, chase my brother around with the fireplace poker and, you know, just blow up completely. Dr, yeah, she drugged me out of a pool one day by my hair, and was just Yeah. I think she was probably two, six, maybe eight at and I know everybody thinks their mom's that, but I think she really could have been one, yeah, and just very emotionally manipulative. So I don't, I never really felt nurtured by her, and I don't think it kind of still goes back to the I was better off just taking care of things myself. And the same is kind of true with my dad, that he was just very busy working, absent. He was fun when he was at home. There was probably a closeness between us back then, more than with my mom, because, you know, he he was, he was not emotionally reactive. I think he probably did a lot of the same, you know, I'm not going to react to your mom's craziness. Just going to go over here and teach you how to drive the car or whatever. Yeah, most of the stuff I just learned on my own. I learned how to ride a bicycle on my own. I learned how to swim on my own after I almost drowned, and was like, I need to teach myself how to do this so that doesn't happen again, right? So I don't know it's not that I didn't I think everybody wants to be nurtured, but it just wasn't happening in my family the way I needed it to be happening for me.
Josh Lavine 1:13:44
Yeah, I can't tell how much I'm let's see projecting a sense of the grief that I would have had in that kind of situation, versus where your emotional relationship with what you just said. And I guess I'm wondering, yeah, good.
Kelly 1:14:09
I have never really felt like, oh, I had a bad, bad childhood, or it was like, way emotional. That's true. My brother actually really feels like we were horribly abused and it was really bad, and yeah, kind of that same feeling, what I feel, what makes me emotional, is me not being okay, like even today, mostly my family does not see me as a competent, you know, making it in life type person. And, you know, I've kind of realized, I guess, part of that probably is the S o, s x, that I just kind of do. Do whatever and don't, but it actually bothers that is what bothers me, with my family not seen as competent. Yeah, yeah. And, you know, my dad has been in like, nursing care, and my mom is actually in a memory care facility at this point, but and my brother doesn't work, so he's kind of been navigating all the parental stuff, and I've been trying to take care of this. We have a really kind of large estate out here, like, you know, five acres, and the lawn mower was broken, and trying to figure out how to get that fixed. And, you know, my brother, my dad's just like, well, if you can't get the lawnmower fixed, pay somebody to do it. Okay? So I pay somebody to do it. And then my brother's like, well, you should have never let it get up and there's an estate fund. And so my brother's like, not going to reimburse me for paying to get the property mode. And he's like, You should have just never let it get out of control. And I'm like, Well, you know, it would have been cheaper to fix the lawnmower or, you know, but then I have ants that are driving by threatening to bring their lawnmower from their house to mow it also, like everybody is so oriented to all of this, the lawn needs to look nice, and we need to make sure that this is all going and, you know, it's kind of your fault. You let it get out of control, and so, you know, the trust is not going to actually reimburse you for those costs. And this is where I always feel emotional in relation to my family. Is, you know, I was taking care of these things. I was just trying to do them in a different way than what like you thought that they should how they should happen, and I wasn't really that worried about, you know, if it takes an extra two weeks to fix the mower, then that's what it takes. And it also kind of, I guess there's circumstances there where it puts me kind of out of control of, you know, I have to actually move my vision and my path to stop. Okay, now I've got to pay for this fine lawn people to come mow and like whatever. When I was I had a plan and and I guess I don't feel seen in that like that they're seeing. I uh, me as being competent and being who I am, and that I just because I'm not doing it their way, doesn't make it it kind of goes back to that 30 year old talk of, you know, I am just not. I don't value the same things I think that they value. And, yeah, kind of, it's kind of like the introvert, extrovert thing, you know, where you see the meme about, like, Well, why don't ex extroverts just take it down instead of the other way around. And again, going back to our cultural thing, and me trying to understand, like, why does this all work this way? Like, why does it have to be that way? And I think they also kind of think, you know, with him being a house husband, that I'm just in another not good relationship. And it's me doing the same things again. And, you know, I should have a partner that's doing all this stuff and and, you know, I always try to explain that like he's actually what I value is him being here and being able to help take care of the property. He actually did fix the lawn mower. It just took some time. And being that support to me more than, like, the financial aspects and yeah, there's just, like, a disconnect between me and my family and what and, yeah, I've Yeah, probably, yeah, just that, the SOS x versus probably a lot of SP going on there that, right? Yeah, it makes it difficult for me, because I don't feel understood there, or that they're looking like that, there could be another side,
Josh Lavine 1:19:45
yeah, and just the disconnect at the level of what matters,
Kelly 1:19:49
yeah, yeah, yeah. And that goes back all the all through life, from the little Kelly, all the way through, I think, just see, i. Uh, going to school didn't really matter to me, you know, I wanted to be doing a different life, like, you know, just experiencing people and different things and not have to be in this. This is what you've got to do, and what you've are supposed to learn and, yeah,
Josh Lavine 1:20:26
yeah, I I just feel moved to say that. I feel touched by what you're saying. I can feel the emotional kind of resonance of this, how kind of frustrating and painful is for you not to feel seen in that way? Yeah,
Kelly 1:20:43
yeah. I know. I don't. I'm not sure I realized that until recently, either. But yeah, I actually had a like, huge cry with my entire family, with my kids and my partner at a barbecue that that just, well, well, I actually had a drink or two. Yeah, that just all came out, like a whole lifetime of kind of being like the black sheep of the family, I guess, like being the one that's kind of off from what that group is, and so when you ask, like, even like, them all singing and doing their thing as a child, it's not like, I felt left out because I didn't actually want to do that. That's not I wanted to be doing my own thing. But on the other hand, it's like, you know, I don't think they ever realized to come either into my space, you know, and that comes back to, like, even in my relationship now, always like wanting people to come into my frame, right? But, yeah, there's also that other side of it that, you know, little Kelly was just over there doing her thing, and I did have one good moment with my father while I was in university the second time around, because I had actually won a regional French speaking competition in high school, and nobody in my family was there, like just kind of flew over the off the radar, which, again, it wasn't like a big whatever, but I realized, because I did an Arabic speaking competition at university and and I got a little award, and I guess I was telling my dad about it, and he said, Well, why didn't you invite us? Oh, and I was like, Well, I didn't even think about it. I didn't know you'd be interested. And, you know, I so on the other side, I don't think it's that they wouldn't come. It's just also me not sharing that, right? This is what I'm doing. Like, I don't even think to be like, oh, yeah, I need y'all to come to my thing, right, you know? And so I, I actually really realized in that moment too, how much me not giving of myself kind of leaves people not knowing who I am.
Josh Lavine 1:23:16
So that's, wow, yeah, that's a profound point. And I think there's, there's just given what you're saying about how you grew up, there's probably a nature and nurture component to that right dynamic, right, right, yes.
Kelly 1:23:27
So, yeah, yeah. And my dad was actually really interested in my Arabic, so I did my speech for him in his living room. Oh, yeah. So
Josh Lavine 1:23:42
and, well, just so,
Kelly 1:23:44
that was like a that was like, that was just like, kind of a good moment, because he doesn't speak Arabic, and it was probably just sounded like whatever to him, right? But, yeah, it, it was just kind of, I guess that was kind of a connection of, you know, I actually, my dad has actually talked to us directly since he's gotten older, about realizing how absent he was, that he was working too much, and he probably should have paid more attention to the actual relationships. So he's actually really worked at that. And so that was kind of a moment of him really trying to do that and be like, Oh, I I'm not into this stuff, and I have no idea what you're saying, but, you know, I would like you to go ahead and show like, show me what it is.
Josh Lavine 1:24:36
Yeah. So it's so funny. This dynamic I'm I feel like my heart is just so warmed by that story, and my senses. It was really, it was you said you framed it. It was a good moment,
Kelly 1:24:52
yes, yeah. It was, yeah,
Josh Lavine 1:24:57
yeah, yeah. I
Kelly 1:24:58
don't realize this did. It, yeah, well, I
Josh Lavine 1:25:02
guess what I'm I
Kelly 1:25:04
actually this is what's funny, like, I actually see my dad is like a very sweet person. When my mom was first going into the hospital, my dad had me drive him all over town trying to find a specific rose that was the rose he gave her on their first date, like, 60 years ago, and we had a horrible time, but he found this rose for her. And so, you know, he's a very but the like, while we're doing this, I was actually like, she has dementia. She doesn't know. She's not gonna, I don't think she's gonna remember. And she didn't really. And so, yeah, it kind of goes back to that unnecessary thing again. I was just like, why are we driving all to 20 different florists? And it was like, very sweet to him. And I can see where it's sweet, but it just doesn't hit me that way. I'm just not, yeah, my partner says I'm a negative three on the romance scale,
Josh Lavine 1:26:10
yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Kelly 1:26:13
That's just not how I connect, like my connection is more really, probably verbal, and wanting you to share with me, like, or to draw me out maybe, I mean, maybe even that as well, like, I actually like people who can draw out more of where I can't get to myself.
Josh Lavine 1:26:39
Yeah, I in on that note, actually, how are you how are you feeling right now in this conversation? Um,
Kelly 1:26:48
well, I actually really appreciate you. You, you're actually very good at asking questions that actually do that, that kind of and some of them, I can't answer, some of them would probably take a lot more thought and reflection into you know what? What that is for me? Yeah, I'm okay with this. Great.
Josh Lavine 1:27:17
I just, it's so funny. I'm tracking this. Let's see where am I at with this? It's like, in the last probably half hour of our conversation, we've dropped into some territory that is really saturated with a lot of heart, and at least that's as I'm experiencing it. And we get to the sort of the moment where we're going to tie the bow on the story, and then the way that, like your phrase at the end of it is like, and that's okay with me, as opposed to, and I feel it's like, there's not obviously, like this effusive verbal kind of thing, but I can still feel in your statement that there is, like A way that you're connected to a kind of heartwarmingness, even though that's not necessarily the way that
Kelly 1:28:07
you would put it. Yes, yes.
Josh Lavine 1:28:11
Okay, well, okay, so that's the thing, because there's a there's an interesting put a tension between our two type structures happening in this moment, right? Yes, as I'm hearing you reveal these things and you're experiencing them in real time, sharing them,
Kelly 1:28:27
yes, yeah, yeah, I don't I'm out that way, the same way, right? Right? Yes, it's very different. Have
Josh Lavine 1:28:37
you experienced over the course of our conversation, like something that I've tracked in our conversation is a certain way that we started in a bit of a kind of, well, how do I say this? When we started our conversation, we were kind of mapping the terrain that we potentially could delve into. And we were kind of in your childhood, we were in your relationship, we talked about your work, we kind of touched into these different areas, but we hadn't. We were sort of this, this kind of surface level map a little bit, and then we've sunk into a couple of these places that have more of your personhood is being revealed in each of these things. That's what I'm tracking. Do you? Are you tracking the same thing?
Kelly 1:29:24
Yes, um, yeah. And a couple of those weren't super comfortable for me. I and you can kind of, I'm sure you could tell as well that I just get stopped, like, oh, like, I don't know that. I don't know how I felt about that I don't know, yeah, and that's also difficult for me, because it goes back to kind of the same thing as my work or anything else where, if I don't know what I'm doing or how what it should be feeling like, what it then I just get. Duck, like, I can't move forward. I think even with emotions, like, if there's things that I am more more in tune with, you know, like, like I'm having fun with my partner or my daughter or whatever, you know, I you know, I get much more comfortable and I'm fun with that, or even if I'm talking about something that maybe is deeper and more difficult, like we didn't really get into my trauma from my first marriage. But you know, even if I'm talking about that, I I can really get into talking about because I that's kind of passed, and I know how that played out for me, but like in the moment, being like, how are you feeling about this thing? I I can't just impromptu. It's like, I have to go into my little mind cabinet and start going, like, what is that emotion? What is that? I don't know what that is. And kind of having to define what that is. It's like, I have to define it before I can, like, Oh, I feel that right, right? I'm
Josh Lavine 1:31:14
noticing the time. So we'll, we'll probably wrap up on a little bit here. But, but that piece you just said is, is really good as a kind of summary of how your interior structure works and kind of moment to moment interactions. And I'm wondering if during the course of your relationship with your partner, or as you discovered the ennecm and have developed more of this kind of awareness of your structure, if there's anything that has helped you get more in touch with your moment to moment experience,
Kelly 1:31:50
a little bit, not so much on the actual emotional yet. I think I'm still working on this. We're still going to keep working, but yeah, being able to stop myself and even see it and go, Oh, I am having a feeling here, you know, because I don't think in the past I even was tracking, like, at least in my body, like an actual feeling. It was just like, Oh, something happened. And then I had to figure it. And now I can actually go, oh, that's a feeling. Stop. In the moment and try to figure it out, instead of it being like, four days later. And I go, you know, I think that upset me, because I can actually stop right now and go, oh yeah, that it's a little bit of progress. Not and, yeah, the Enneagram has really, I guess, at least put me on that path and being able to see the structures and what I'm doing and a little better, so that I can go, oh, wait, there's something there. I should look at it right now, because if I don't, then I may, may not be able to figure out what it is, because it may be fleeting or it may be unnecessary,
Josh Lavine 1:33:01
right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, okay, so what's, what has this been like for you? This conversation,
Kelly 1:33:12
this conversation, yeah, did we cover this already? We just did. We already covered this. You're
Josh Lavine 1:33:18
kind of, you're right, I, and I was actually aware of repeating the question, but is there anything fresh now?
Kelly 1:33:24
Anything fresh now? Yeah, I actually feel a little vulnerable in having done this, putting it out there, and kind of where we first started on like, Oh, I'm seeing myself on this camera, and I don't know that I want to see myself in that way, right? Yeah. So that's mainly what I'm feeling right now, is, yeah, it's the same thing when you first asked, because you started there as well. Like, when you like, do you want to do this? I just said yes, because I was like, you know, I can always just be like, No, it's not going to work out if it doesn't, but I kind of wanted to push that a little bit because it's not really something I'm comfortable with. And to me, that's part of getting out of your comfort zone and structure is to actually push yourself into, you know, different experiences that are outside of that.
Josh Lavine 1:34:22
Yeah, well, thank you for doing this, and I just thank you for trusting me with this, and I really appreciate you and our conversation and your willingness to kind of go there.
Kelly 1:34:36
Yeah, well, thank you. I would have probably never done it if you hadn't actually directly said, Hey, right, yeah, yeah,
Josh Lavine 1:34:47
okay, well, let's close and until next time. Okay,
Kelly 1:34:51
thank you, Josh, you're welcome. You.
